Walking Dead, Buffy Shipping Redux

[shadowkat]

1. Watched Walking Dead last night, against my better judgement. Spent the majority of the episode worried they were going to kill off my favorite character, actually make that the only character I like outside of maybe Daryl. They didn't. But it was touch and go for a while there. Actually I think Andrea may be the break out character of the series.



It should be noted that I've never read or seen the comics. I just know what the writers have said about them in interviews and other people online have stated. Such as Shane died at the end of maybe the second or third issue - fairly early on in the series and was killed by Carl to protect his father. A sword barring fighter pops up, a ninja type - who is a fan favorite. And there's a fort controlled by the Governor, who basically throws people in a gladiator style ring to fight off zombies.

In the series, Rick killed Shane, Carl killed Zombie!Shane and for the first time we saw what happens inside the human when the monster takes over. The series keeps underlying how the walking dead or zombies are literally a metaphor for disease. The "on-coming plague" which you can't stop. It moves slowly, but you can't outrun it, you can't hide, and you can't stop it. The human fear of disease is what a zombie exemplifies or is a metaphor for.
Vampires tend to represent addiction and sexual perversity, zombies disease and mindless violence. Both are about hunger - one for sex, for acquiring life, and the other for devoring or consuming life. I prefer vampires - find them to be more interesting, plus less gross. But that's just me. Zombies aren't really my thing. Not a fan of illness or disease. But perverse sex, sexual violence, and sucking life...I can deal with. Weird, considering my fear of spiders. But I don't claim to make sense.

According to interviews - the writers of the series, which includes the creator and writer of the comics, want to do the samuri girl and the governor who does gladiator battles. From the finale of this season - my guess is that will definitely be next season.
We see the samuri girl pop up, saving Andrea's life, with her two chained and armless zombies in tow. She's hooded, so hard to know if it's actually a girl. And we see Fort Bragg loom omniously in the distance. I'm guessing that's the Governor.

Rick actually became interesting. I like Lincoln who portrays him. The acting in this series is better than the writing. He's spiel to the survivors was ...interesting. They surprised me, I didn't expect Rick to reveal that he killed his best friend in self-defense this soon, to everyone (but Andrea who is racing through the woods for her life). I admittedly didn't care about Rick or the survivors through any of this, and just wanted to know if Andrea survived. Outside of maybe Rick and Daryl, the others can be devoured by zombies for all I care. Okay, that's not entirely true...I sort of like Glenn, Maggie, and the black guy (who I kept wishing would just dump whiny Lori and the blond girl by the side of the road and keep on trucking.) Herschel is growing on me - he's a more dangerous and helpful Dale. They've basically replaced Dale with Herschel, and Shane..
I'm not sure who they've replaced Shane with. They did need to get rid of a few - so Jimmy and Maribeth (who I never knew and so didn't care about) got killed pretty brutally.
Was sort of rooting for Carol to buy it too - but no, apparently Daryl and Carol are in the next item. Did love their exchange. Daryl: "What do you want exactly, a hero?"
Carol: "Yes, I want someone with honor." Daryl: "Rick has honor." Carol:"Than why doesn't he do something - show some backbone?" Well, now he has. Happy? (Rick: You can leave and get killed by zombies in the dark, or you can stay here. I don't care. But if you stay this isn't a democracy any longer! (nor should it be...in these situations, you really can't have a democracy, it's do or die. Otherwise you might as well be herding cats across the countryside, actually cats would be easier to herd.)

Best line was Herschel's: I know it says in Revelations that come judgment day, that Christ would raise the dead and dead would walk, but I honestly thought he had something different in mind. (you think? LOL! Don't mind me, irreverent religious lines always make me laugh.)

Finally? Andrea rocks. She managed to get away from the farmhouse on foot, by herself. She's the only one who did. With a ton of weapons. And ran through the woods. I'm really hoping Samuri Girl and Andrea become a Themla and Louise for this series - that I will watch. Wicked cool.



2. Buffy shipping redux. Was reading scanning Mark Watches again and it may be too soon to tell, but I'm going out on a limb to predict that no, Mark, will not be a Spuffy fan. I did want to reply to his post though, but they'd kill me on the spoilers.

* Spike in Giles bathtub, chained up - this had to launch a dozen fanfics. (Yes, it did, but actually it launched even more Spuffy fics.)
* Where's Wesely? Maybe he and Joyce are having babies? (eww, and this guy thought Spuffy was eww...seriously.) ME: No, he's on Angel, making googly eyes at Cordy. (He doesn't know Wes went to Angel? I'm not sure I believe that. Anymore than I'm sure I believe he didn't know Cordy went there...casting spoilers are pretty hard to avoid, particularly when they are "main" cast members.)
* "I know Willow isn't gay, but she's my gay best friend...and we can talk about the woe of boys..." (Hee. Actually...she likes girls better.)
* "Buffy/Spike - eww...I covered my eyes during this.." (sigh, he's not going to like S6. Although hard to know for certain, can't remember what I thought about Something Blue when it first aired or Spuffy. I don't think I was a shipper...at that point I found Spike a bit creepy. So...I will give Whedon credit for building that relationship. Granted, I've been told that Mark knows about the A/R just not when or where - so that may be why he's reacting in this manner.)

This brings me to ships and subjectivity or what triggers folks.

1. Buffy/Angel - I couldn't stand that ship after IWARY and the Faith cross-over. I found what Angel did in IWARY unforgiveable. Worse than the A/R scene. In part because he NEVER realizes he did anything wrong and does the same thing over and over again. He never realizes that he violated Buffy in a horrific way. He raped her of her memories, her bit of life, so he could cling to immortality and be a "champion". And he never realizes it.
Memories make us who we are. Then he does it again - in S4, which did not surprise me in the least, because that's Angel. He rapes his friends of their memories so that Connor can live a normal life. Doesn't give them a choice. Doesn't care. He does it for his own legacy, his own immortality. It's a typical noir hero thing to do, actually, and fit the character and the series. But it made it impossible for me to like or sympathsize with the character. The whole memory thing I found difficult to deal with. Granted Willow does exactly the same thing and deliberately - but she does pay for it, everyone knows, and she shows remorse, she realizes she did something wrong...and she's not self-righteous about it like Angel is. Both characters bugged me. But Angel was worse.

2. The AR felt less deliberate than Angel's actions, Spike was clearly not in his right mind at the time, he didn't have a soul - so no moral compass, and he regretted so deeply that he sought a soul to ensure it wouldn't happen again, not realizing that getting a soul wouldn't be enough to ensure this. I saw no intent from Spike. It didn't feel like an active choice. He didn't plan it. It wasn't malice aforethought - and I'm sorry I've been trained to think about this from a legal perspective. Did the character plan it? What was their motivation? Did they show remorse? Would they have done something different?
And did they gain anything? Spike's character is vastly different than Angel, and which you prefer or despise, etc, has a lot to do with what bugs and turns you on. For me - Spike seemed to be more about the rush, the high, he doesn't really think it through...he jumps in. Angel on the other hand thought about it, worked at it, planned it. Angel always intended to hurt - he got off on creating monsters, Spike...really never thought about it, enjoyed the fight, the blood rush, the seduction. At least that is how I saw them. I know mileage varies on this - I have the kerfuffle wounds to prove it. And once upon a time, I adored Angel, now...I find his character difficult to like. In a way, I preferred how Being Human dealt with the Angel character trope - the guilty guy who never really takes action to deal with his addiction or to show his remorse, just whines about being cursed with the addiction.

3. So for me? I could never understand why people couldn't forgive Spike for the AR, who couldn't see him with Buffy after that. Because I did not see or interpret the scene the way they did. Any more than I interpret or see the episodes IWARY or Home the same way others have. But, I'm not being entirely truthful, when I say this. I do understand in a way and I can see the other point of view, I've always been able to play devil's advocate with myself. I can hear the other side of the argument even now. Spike attacked her physically in a brutal way, Angel just undid time - she never remembered it, so where's the pain? Where's the harm, if you can't remember the pain? If you have no memory of the act? Isn't physical rape worse than mental rape? It's a question Whedon posed in Dollhouse.
Demonstrating that no, mental rape is in some ways worse...because we lose who we are. But then again...I think this is question that can't be generalized. There's no one answer.

At any rate, the only ship that survived that series...was Spuffy, the only character I loved and was obsessed with afterwards was Spike. I don't know why that is. It just is.
Everyone else...I sort of grew away from or out of. In part it is the comics, which I stopped reading after S8. In part...it is my own interactions with fandom, complete with personality conflicts. (I should note, I have a lot of people on my flist who loved Bangle and Angel, and still do...I understand, and I don't, much as I'm certain they understand my love for Spuffy and Spike, and they don't.)

God, I went too late. Damn it.

Okay before stopping...here's the thing about taste [ETA: and interpretation]? You won't understand someone else's taste or interpretation any more than you can walk a mile with their feet. You can't understand how they react to things, except to know it most likely will be different than you do. The reasons for the differences are vast. But the fact they exist, the fact you don't like the same things...see the world very differently - is a good thing. It makes us unique. It means we are less likely to destroy the world. There will always be someone who fights us, when we do something dumb. And...we are never alone, because as much as it may seem that no one is on our side or agrees with us or shares our taste? We are wrong. There's always someone who does.



[ETA: Don't hurt me for my opinions people, Angel and Connor don't exist. I do. Pray, Keep that in mind. Also there are various ways to interpret things. AND time to remind you all: "Your Friends aren't watching the same tv show you are (even if it looks like it) and that's okay!" ]

Comments

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Okay, I get the difference in triggers, and why it's personal for you. And of course we all see different shows.

However:

But at the end, I can't get past the fact that he altered the memories to alter his son's history, so his son could be a different person - the son he could be proud of, and could love.

Question: you didn't think he loved Connor before? I don't mean the baby, I mean teenage Connor. Because I would say that there are only two times where Angel instead of trying to win teenage Connor over (the hard way you say he didn't take) rejected him. Once was after he returned from under the sea (the "I love you, now get out" scene), and I'd see three months in a condition that's pure torture are an excuse for that, and the other time, which is the one time where I'd say Angel does fail Connor, after saving him from the zombie outing at Wolfram and Harts and then stepping away after Connor approaches him because this is just after Angel has seen him with Cordelia. In all the other episodes between Benediction and Home, it's Angel attempting to be there for Connor and reaching out to him.

Secondly: I haven't watched Home for a while, so I might be wrong there, but as I recall it, we don't actually find out whether the entire changed memory/memories part was Angel's idea or already part of Lilah's offer. (Again, I may remember wrongly, but to my knowledge we cut we go from Lilah switching on the screen to show Angel Connor to wherever Connor is about to blow everyone up, with possibly a Gunn or Fred scene in between.) Honestly, I could buy it either way - that Lilah only said "we help you save your son, not just right now but permanently" without specifying anything, or that Lilah said "we'll give your son an entire new life". Either way, though: it's not like Angel has time to think long and hard about the whole affair. Because there is an immediate life threatening situation, with Cordelia's and the bystanders' lives at stake in addition to Connor's. He has to make a decision then and there, and he makes it.

Could he have gone back on the deal after that immediate danger was removed? Absolutely. And he didn't, which is his responsiblity. Where we disagree is his motivation for keeping up said deal. You see it as Angel taking the easy way and being selfish, I see it as Angel taking one of two hard ways (because until Origin, he has no expectation of ever seeing Connor again, which the show certainly sold me on being terrible for him, and as far as other benefits are concerned, he certainly was far happier not being CEO of Wolfram and Hart) and being selfless. I'm not saying I don't see Angel as selfish in many other ways. (Including IWRY. God, yes.) But not in this particular decision.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

No, I think he loved Connor. That's not what I meant. I meant that his love was overshadowed by his own guilt and aspirations, not that it didn't exist.
I don't mean to paint it as cut and dry as I do.

And you bring up several valid points, which ironically I think I actually argued on the ATPO board at the time the episode actually aired. My thinking on Angel has admittedly done a 180 turn since the series ended (cough*buffycomics*cough (which I've decided are the root of all fandom evilness) and the ensuing debates surrounding them).

My memory of Home admittedly isn't much better than yours - I last saw it maybe two years ago? I forget. What I remember vividly from it - is that Lilah stated they could rewrite Connor's history, that no one would remember him, except Angel, that no one would remember Connor as Angel's son...etc. And this deal is echoed in Orion's Window (I think that's the name of the episode) - where Wes discovers the deal Angel made and breaks the glass, shattering the construct, so that now everyone remembers Connor, including Connor.

Where we disagree is his motivation for keeping up said deal. You see it as Angel taking the easy way and being selfish, I see it as Angel taking one of two hard ways

Sort of. It's more complicated than that...I think. I may be wrong.
It's admittedly something I've struggled with, because I do agree Angel was up against a rock and a hard place - he really had very few options. But I still think he picked the easier path the quick solution. You are right "easy" isn't exactly right. Fastest is better and most likely to succeed from his pov. Which was I guess the message in Epithany...that Angel doesn't quite understand - that you can't keep having someone wave a magic wand to fix your problems - there are consequences. Willow has a similar issue - she keeps trying to take the short-cut, but as Tara states there are no short-cuts.

(Caveat: I like Connor and am amongst the few fans who actually loved Connor in S3-S4. VK sold Connor to me. But I also like VK as an actor.) I think if the boy that was doing those killings had been anyone else, like a stranger? Angel would have killed him. Angel sacrificed all this for a murderer who was his son. Granted the boy had been irreparably damaged. But...Angel's choice always bugged me - my guess is it was supposed to.

That said, I do agree it's not as cut and dry as I made it sound above. Angel's choice in Home actually is more morally grey than his choice in IWARY and better written. Home's an episode that plays with your brain long after it is over.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

The episode you mean is called Origin, the device Wesley shatters is an Orion's window.

Re: short cuts: well, Angel is someone for whom two of the most significant, shattering changes of his life happened in a "magical", so to speak, way: Darla making him from Liam into Angelus, and the gypsies giving him a soul. Now if you look at it more closely, in both cases the event itself is by no means a fix-it or a complete development. Becoming a vampire ends Liam's discontented life in Galway, but it doesn't actually already create Angelus, other than adding the demon part. But I'd say Angelus as we know him is the product of years as a vampire (the newborn vampire killing his family is still quite confused, the one challenging the Master actually not that dissimilar from Liam in brawling mode, only with added supernatural stamina though with the added knowledge Liam wouldn't have had, that the Master beating him physically still allows him to win Darla emotionally), a work in progress that's not complete until Darla leaves him to burn in the barn and he catches up with her later. Similarly, the newly souled vampire isn't Angel yet, either. He tries to go back to what he used to be at first, to what and whom he's used to, and he needs a century of various failed attempts (see also: Are you know or have you ever been?) to become his definite souled personality. But that's an outside pov. For Angel himself, what's true is that both Darla making him into a vampire and the gypsies cursing him radically and forever altered his life/lives. Now whether giving Connor different memories is more the equivalent of making him a vampire or giving him a soul for Angel is up to debate. But I think it's not surprising that the idea this could be the way to save him would occur.

I think if the boy that was doing those killings had been anyone else, like a stranger? Angel would have killed him. Angel sacrificed all this for a murderer who was his son.

Absolutely, with one caveat: I wouldn't say "anyone else", though I agree on the "stranger" part. Angel would have also done it for Faith; he'd definitely have done it for Darla; Spike and Drusilla are arguable, though I'm tending to "yes" (not least because he's responsible for making them killers to begin with); Cordelia, yes, Wesley, probably yes, Gunn and Fred yes except if the saving would have damaged more than people's memories.

But if Connor had been a complete stranger helping Jasmine for reasons unknown and then killing her for reasons unknown? He'd either have disarmed him and locked him up somewhere or killed him, agreed.

Something I do recall is that Tim Minear (who by all I've heard is the primary author of the Angel-Darla-Connor storylines, so I'm not sure how much this counts as a Joss Whedon tale anyway) says on the Home audio commentary that the original plan (back when they didn't know Charisma Carpenter was pregnant and s4 was still in the planning stage) was that de-possessed Cordelia, not Connor, would kill Jasmine, and Angel would kill Connor, going for an Arthurian ending, with Connor as Mordred, but the combination of the fact CC was not available for anything more than cameos in the last part of the season due to her condition and the fact VK put on such a great performance as Connor, the writers changed their mind, and decided that not only would Connor live but that, ironcially, this incredibly damaged, murderous child would end up as the one person who makes it out of the show definitely alive and with hope for the future.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

The episode you mean is called Origin, the device Wesley shatters is an Orion's window

Ah, thanks. For some reason I had separated those as two different episodes in my head.
I don't know why. ;-)

I wouldn't say "anyone else", though I agree on the "stranger" part.

No, I agree - I tried to change that halfway through the sentence, but forgot to change the "anyone" bit. As aycheb stated above, we occasionally fall into the habit of "over-stating" things on lj. ;-)

Angel would have done it for anyone that he felt was his responsibility and/or was extreemly close to, although "responsibility" is the operative term here. It's how I've fanwanked the fact that he never staked Dru or Spike and looked for ways to get them out of trouble.

Something I do recall is that Tim Minear (who by all I've heard is the primary author of the Angel-Darla-Connor storylines, so I'm not sure how much this counts as a Joss Whedon tale anyway)

True. How much of Angel was Whedon..is questionable. I actually have similar questions regarding Buffy. Both felt more collaborative.
And I think sometimes we give Whedon too much credit (but then I've seen things he's done without that level of collaboration and they don't stack up quite as well.)

says on the Home audio commentary that the original plan (back when they didn't know Charisma Carpenter was pregnant and s4 was still in the planning stage) was that de-possessed Cordelia, not Connor, would kill Jasmine

Remember that too - which was true and on the DVD commentary. Also remember a rumor (which may or may not be true), again stated by Minear in some interview somewhere, that originally Cordelia was supposed to be the Big Bad and get killed by Connor at the end. But Charisma got pregnant and it just didn't work. The other rumor was that Doyle would have come back as a big bad, if Glenn Quinn had still been around.
(Not sure if either of these are true.)

the writers changed their mind, and decided that not only would Connor live but that, ironcially, this incredibly damaged, murderous child would end up as the one person who makes it out of the show definitely alive and with hope for the future.

An interesting writing choice and it works in a "noir" series, because typically that's what happens. I've always found it ironic that Angel corrupted everyone who saught shelter with him, as opposed to redeeming them (with the possible exception of Faith), and they all died horribly. But hey he still got his "shanshue" in the end - which was "Connor's magical redemption". Actually Connor was the shanshue.

From one perspective (not sure if its Watsonian or Doylist) I can't help but appreciate and admire the choice - it's neatly ironic, and ambiguous as well. Also tragic depending on the pov. I remember laughing my head off - when the moderator of the fan discussion board I was on at the time, remarked:"Okay, I didn't want them to kill off Connor...but that doesn't mean I wanted them to kill off everyone else!") It's highly ironic - that all of Angel's best buds, the one's who fought for him, his Willow, Giles and Xander, are dead by the end of S5. (Doyle, Fred, Cordy, and Wes).

From another perspective...and I'm guessing this is why the writers made the decision they did...I can't help but be disturbed by the outcome. I think it is meant to be morally ambigous and dark. It's a horror show after all.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Alright that Angel, Connor, Darla icon is wickedly cool. Haven't see it before.

[elisi]

I haven't watched Home for a while, so I might be wrong there, but as I recall it, we don't actually find out whether the entire changed memory/memories part was Angel's idea or already part of Lilah's offer. (Again, I may remember wrongly, but to my knowledge we cut we go from Lilah switching on the screen to show Angel Connor to wherever Connor is about to blow everyone up, with possibly a Gunn or Fred scene in between.) Honestly, I could buy it either way - that Lilah only said "we help you save your son, not just right now but permanently" without specifying anything, or that Lilah said "we'll give your son an entire new life".

It's all Angel. Lilah receives a phone call, switches the TV on, and we see the news report. Then there's fade-to-back (commercial break) and then this:

LILAH
Watch the head. It comes off kind of easy.

ANGEL
(through gritted teeth) You set this whole thing up.

LILAH
Been a little busy with the being dead.

ANGEL
You, the senior partners, whoever. Get 'em on the phone and make it stop (low) now.

LILAH
Love to, except for the part where we didn't have anything to do with—

ANGEL
But you know who did.

LILAH
Yeah, I'm looking at him. You're the one who raised him or didn't. (Angel lets her go; Lilah clears throat) Can't imagine how the kid turned out postal.

ANGEL
You don't know a thing about Connor, huh. Let's keep it that way. (walks toward the door)

LILAH
One time offer only, Angel. Walk out that door, deal's off. Stay, and it's all yours.

ANGEL
People like you, this place, that's what's wrong with the world, Lilah. I will never be a part of this. (sighs, stares at the image of Connor on the screen) Not the way you're hoping. (walks up to Lilah) Now let me tell you what the deal's gonna be.


So, it's Angel's idea through and through. (It's early, I might be back with more thoughts later on. In short, Connor's story parallels Melody's very closely - a child raised to be a weapon, and hugely damaged because of it. Except Melody saves herself, and Connor can't.)

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Thank you for looking it up and settling whose idea it was!

Re: parallels, seee my reply to Shadowcat above for something that occured to me re: magical existence alterting events in Angel's own life - becoming a vampire and the souling, and the conclusions he may have taken from that.

The Connor and Melody Ponds parallels were something which I thought of back when s6 was unfolding, though I must say they mostly made me dissatisfied with s6, because of Rory's and Amy's non-reactions through most of it as compared to how s3, flawed as it was, allowed the audience to see everyone, from Angel to Fred/Gunn/Cordelia and of course to Wesley be affected by the aftermath.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

First, thank you for the bit on Home, I was pretty sure that was the way Home played out. That Angel set the terms and WRH fiendishly agreed. The best traps are the one's that we set for ourselves after all, not the one's the "metaphorical" devil or devils set for us.
(WRH is amongst my favorite Whedon villains, for this reason - they always let their victims set their own traps.)

There's other differences between Melody (River Song) and Connor...in that, Melody's birth was a natural one not one manipulated by
the PTB. Melody isn't the Doctor's child. She is actually raised by her parents in the real world (except her parents are her age) not by the kidnappers. She's not tortured like Connor or living in a hell dimension. She falls in love with the Doctor and isn't rebelling against him like a child against a parent.
Nor is she rebelling against Amy Pound. The Doctor isn't Amy Pound's significant other.
And both Melody and the Doctor are Time Lords.
Plus she is saved by killing the Doctor, and Melody unlike Connor goes to prison.

I think Melody/River has more in common with Faith than with Connor actually. Although that's not quite a good fit either - but Faith like River was a bit psychotic, and it took an older powerful man, who had done similar things to understand her and help her find her way - helping her choose to go to prison and like Faith, River is only there because she chooses to be, since she can break out at any time. (The Doctor Who/River story parallels Faith/Angel in some respects...) As for Connor, he has more in common with Donna Noble - who in Doctor Who had her "memories" entirely wiped in order "to save her". (Which I have issues with as well, actually what was done to Donna bothered me more than Home.)

[elisi]

Sorry to disappear, life has been... too busy. Anyway, just wanted to come back to this (very momentarily):

I think Melody/River has more in common with Faith than with Connor actually. Although that's not quite a good fit either
There are story-parallels with Faith, but basically I think River starts out Connor-like (there are more parallels than you give the show credit for), and then turns into Spike (the Spike-parallels are off the chart. *g*) I'm intending to write a post (at some point...) so I'll not go into too much detail right now, but that's my basic position. Faith just happens to be a woman (and she chooses to go to prison) but character-wise she's nothing like River. All her motivations are vastily different. :)