Walking Dead, Buffy Shipping Redux

[shadowkat]

1. Watched Walking Dead last night, against my better judgement. Spent the majority of the episode worried they were going to kill off my favorite character, actually make that the only character I like outside of maybe Daryl. They didn't. But it was touch and go for a while there. Actually I think Andrea may be the break out character of the series.



It should be noted that I've never read or seen the comics. I just know what the writers have said about them in interviews and other people online have stated. Such as Shane died at the end of maybe the second or third issue - fairly early on in the series and was killed by Carl to protect his father. A sword barring fighter pops up, a ninja type - who is a fan favorite. And there's a fort controlled by the Governor, who basically throws people in a gladiator style ring to fight off zombies.

In the series, Rick killed Shane, Carl killed Zombie!Shane and for the first time we saw what happens inside the human when the monster takes over. The series keeps underlying how the walking dead or zombies are literally a metaphor for disease. The "on-coming plague" which you can't stop. It moves slowly, but you can't outrun it, you can't hide, and you can't stop it. The human fear of disease is what a zombie exemplifies or is a metaphor for.
Vampires tend to represent addiction and sexual perversity, zombies disease and mindless violence. Both are about hunger - one for sex, for acquiring life, and the other for devoring or consuming life. I prefer vampires - find them to be more interesting, plus less gross. But that's just me. Zombies aren't really my thing. Not a fan of illness or disease. But perverse sex, sexual violence, and sucking life...I can deal with. Weird, considering my fear of spiders. But I don't claim to make sense.

According to interviews - the writers of the series, which includes the creator and writer of the comics, want to do the samuri girl and the governor who does gladiator battles. From the finale of this season - my guess is that will definitely be next season.
We see the samuri girl pop up, saving Andrea's life, with her two chained and armless zombies in tow. She's hooded, so hard to know if it's actually a girl. And we see Fort Bragg loom omniously in the distance. I'm guessing that's the Governor.

Rick actually became interesting. I like Lincoln who portrays him. The acting in this series is better than the writing. He's spiel to the survivors was ...interesting. They surprised me, I didn't expect Rick to reveal that he killed his best friend in self-defense this soon, to everyone (but Andrea who is racing through the woods for her life). I admittedly didn't care about Rick or the survivors through any of this, and just wanted to know if Andrea survived. Outside of maybe Rick and Daryl, the others can be devoured by zombies for all I care. Okay, that's not entirely true...I sort of like Glenn, Maggie, and the black guy (who I kept wishing would just dump whiny Lori and the blond girl by the side of the road and keep on trucking.) Herschel is growing on me - he's a more dangerous and helpful Dale. They've basically replaced Dale with Herschel, and Shane..
I'm not sure who they've replaced Shane with. They did need to get rid of a few - so Jimmy and Maribeth (who I never knew and so didn't care about) got killed pretty brutally.
Was sort of rooting for Carol to buy it too - but no, apparently Daryl and Carol are in the next item. Did love their exchange. Daryl: "What do you want exactly, a hero?"
Carol: "Yes, I want someone with honor." Daryl: "Rick has honor." Carol:"Than why doesn't he do something - show some backbone?" Well, now he has. Happy? (Rick: You can leave and get killed by zombies in the dark, or you can stay here. I don't care. But if you stay this isn't a democracy any longer! (nor should it be...in these situations, you really can't have a democracy, it's do or die. Otherwise you might as well be herding cats across the countryside, actually cats would be easier to herd.)

Best line was Herschel's: I know it says in Revelations that come judgment day, that Christ would raise the dead and dead would walk, but I honestly thought he had something different in mind. (you think? LOL! Don't mind me, irreverent religious lines always make me laugh.)

Finally? Andrea rocks. She managed to get away from the farmhouse on foot, by herself. She's the only one who did. With a ton of weapons. And ran through the woods. I'm really hoping Samuri Girl and Andrea become a Themla and Louise for this series - that I will watch. Wicked cool.



2. Buffy shipping redux. Was reading scanning Mark Watches again and it may be too soon to tell, but I'm going out on a limb to predict that no, Mark, will not be a Spuffy fan. I did want to reply to his post though, but they'd kill me on the spoilers.

* Spike in Giles bathtub, chained up - this had to launch a dozen fanfics. (Yes, it did, but actually it launched even more Spuffy fics.)
* Where's Wesely? Maybe he and Joyce are having babies? (eww, and this guy thought Spuffy was eww...seriously.) ME: No, he's on Angel, making googly eyes at Cordy. (He doesn't know Wes went to Angel? I'm not sure I believe that. Anymore than I'm sure I believe he didn't know Cordy went there...casting spoilers are pretty hard to avoid, particularly when they are "main" cast members.)
* "I know Willow isn't gay, but she's my gay best friend...and we can talk about the woe of boys..." (Hee. Actually...she likes girls better.)
* "Buffy/Spike - eww...I covered my eyes during this.." (sigh, he's not going to like S6. Although hard to know for certain, can't remember what I thought about Something Blue when it first aired or Spuffy. I don't think I was a shipper...at that point I found Spike a bit creepy. So...I will give Whedon credit for building that relationship. Granted, I've been told that Mark knows about the A/R just not when or where - so that may be why he's reacting in this manner.)

This brings me to ships and subjectivity or what triggers folks.

1. Buffy/Angel - I couldn't stand that ship after IWARY and the Faith cross-over. I found what Angel did in IWARY unforgiveable. Worse than the A/R scene. In part because he NEVER realizes he did anything wrong and does the same thing over and over again. He never realizes that he violated Buffy in a horrific way. He raped her of her memories, her bit of life, so he could cling to immortality and be a "champion". And he never realizes it.
Memories make us who we are. Then he does it again - in S4, which did not surprise me in the least, because that's Angel. He rapes his friends of their memories so that Connor can live a normal life. Doesn't give them a choice. Doesn't care. He does it for his own legacy, his own immortality. It's a typical noir hero thing to do, actually, and fit the character and the series. But it made it impossible for me to like or sympathsize with the character. The whole memory thing I found difficult to deal with. Granted Willow does exactly the same thing and deliberately - but she does pay for it, everyone knows, and she shows remorse, she realizes she did something wrong...and she's not self-righteous about it like Angel is. Both characters bugged me. But Angel was worse.

2. The AR felt less deliberate than Angel's actions, Spike was clearly not in his right mind at the time, he didn't have a soul - so no moral compass, and he regretted so deeply that he sought a soul to ensure it wouldn't happen again, not realizing that getting a soul wouldn't be enough to ensure this. I saw no intent from Spike. It didn't feel like an active choice. He didn't plan it. It wasn't malice aforethought - and I'm sorry I've been trained to think about this from a legal perspective. Did the character plan it? What was their motivation? Did they show remorse? Would they have done something different?
And did they gain anything? Spike's character is vastly different than Angel, and which you prefer or despise, etc, has a lot to do with what bugs and turns you on. For me - Spike seemed to be more about the rush, the high, he doesn't really think it through...he jumps in. Angel on the other hand thought about it, worked at it, planned it. Angel always intended to hurt - he got off on creating monsters, Spike...really never thought about it, enjoyed the fight, the blood rush, the seduction. At least that is how I saw them. I know mileage varies on this - I have the kerfuffle wounds to prove it. And once upon a time, I adored Angel, now...I find his character difficult to like. In a way, I preferred how Being Human dealt with the Angel character trope - the guilty guy who never really takes action to deal with his addiction or to show his remorse, just whines about being cursed with the addiction.

3. So for me? I could never understand why people couldn't forgive Spike for the AR, who couldn't see him with Buffy after that. Because I did not see or interpret the scene the way they did. Any more than I interpret or see the episodes IWARY or Home the same way others have. But, I'm not being entirely truthful, when I say this. I do understand in a way and I can see the other point of view, I've always been able to play devil's advocate with myself. I can hear the other side of the argument even now. Spike attacked her physically in a brutal way, Angel just undid time - she never remembered it, so where's the pain? Where's the harm, if you can't remember the pain? If you have no memory of the act? Isn't physical rape worse than mental rape? It's a question Whedon posed in Dollhouse.
Demonstrating that no, mental rape is in some ways worse...because we lose who we are. But then again...I think this is question that can't be generalized. There's no one answer.

At any rate, the only ship that survived that series...was Spuffy, the only character I loved and was obsessed with afterwards was Spike. I don't know why that is. It just is.
Everyone else...I sort of grew away from or out of. In part it is the comics, which I stopped reading after S8. In part...it is my own interactions with fandom, complete with personality conflicts. (I should note, I have a lot of people on my flist who loved Bangle and Angel, and still do...I understand, and I don't, much as I'm certain they understand my love for Spuffy and Spike, and they don't.)

God, I went too late. Damn it.

Okay before stopping...here's the thing about taste [ETA: and interpretation]? You won't understand someone else's taste or interpretation any more than you can walk a mile with their feet. You can't understand how they react to things, except to know it most likely will be different than you do. The reasons for the differences are vast. But the fact they exist, the fact you don't like the same things...see the world very differently - is a good thing. It makes us unique. It means we are less likely to destroy the world. There will always be someone who fights us, when we do something dumb. And...we are never alone, because as much as it may seem that no one is on our side or agrees with us or shares our taste? We are wrong. There's always someone who does.



[ETA: Don't hurt me for my opinions people, Angel and Connor don't exist. I do. Pray, Keep that in mind. Also there are various ways to interpret things. AND time to remind you all: "Your Friends aren't watching the same tv show you are (even if it looks like it) and that's okay!" ]

Comments

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Mark's abuse of ALL CAPS and exclamation marks makes him virtually unreadable for me at this point.

[elisi]

He rapes his friends of their memories so that Connor can live a normal life. Doesn't give them a choice. Doesn't care. He does it for his own legacy, his own immortality.
Huh? I have to say I disagree with this hugely. He does it for Connor's sake, and because of it sells out on every level: He loses his mission, his redemption and his friends.

GUNN (softly, confessing)
It was just a piece of paper. I was losing it. Everything they put in my head, everything that made me different. Special. And he could fix it. Make it permanent. So I signed a piece of paper. It was a custom's release form. I didn't think anyone would get hurt.

WESLEY
Nothing from Wolfram & Hart is ever free. You knew that.

GUNN
I couldn't go back... to being just the muscle. I—I didn't think it would be one of us. I didn't think it would be Fred.

Angel has no such illusions. He knows exactly what the price will be, and is willing to pay it to save his child. (Remind me, have you seen Children of Earth?) Or, to quote this fic:

"This is what you are. This is why you fight."

And he looked into the pool, and he saw the child, their child. But the mist hung over the water, and the truth became harder and harder to see through the haze.

The girl with the golden hair held out her hands. "If you turn over the child," she said, "You can save the world."

But he shook his head, and stood firm.

"I'll save the child," he said, "If I have to turn over the world."

It's fatherly love, not pride, which motivates him. Just look at how hopelessly he views his own fate in S5 - he does not expect to in any way avoid paying for all his crimes.

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

I can't get rid of the impression that Angel's season 8 arc was a souped-up version of IWRY (but I'm afraid I can't be objective about that episode).

[lusciousxander.livejournal.com]

I personally thought he was going to take a big issue in Spike's line about protecting Buffy. Actually, it's weird that none of the commenters commented on it seeing as they tend to pick on every big and small and extremely tiny "sexist" line in the show so far.

[ms-scarletibis.livejournal.com]

I think for the AR comparison, Willow may be a better candidate for comparison since she actually had sex with Tara after various mind wipes, and never saw what the big deal was. I'd equate that to a roofie, actually. Also, didn't like how it wasn't dealt with on the show...especially considering what happened to Tara with Glory.

As for Angel...I never really got the upset over "Home," since it was the only way to save his son. I'm not a parent, but I can certainly empathize with the sentiment. As for IWRY, it was a pretty barf inducing ep for me, and I prefer not to think much of it at all, but...it wasn't Buffy specific--his actions changed everyone's day, so I can't really see it as an afront to her. It's another instance where it wasn't used to..get his way or anything, and it's portrayed as a painful thing for him because he undoes his happy day. In short, I don't see that particularly as an abuse either.

[fangfaceandrea.livejournal.com]

I'm pretty much with you, if Spike had gone though and raped her I couldmark his actions as unforgivable but since he did not intend to do it in the fisrt place and was sorry right after she stopped him, it was never that hard for me to forgive Spike. As for Angel, I only like him when he is surrounded by pople who call him of his crap because he does tend to make bad decisions that affect otherswithout taking their opinion into consideration.

[flameraven.livejournal.com]

It's kind of interesting for me to hear about shipping wars on Buffy because I think this is one show where I'm even less involved with it than usual. I mean, I enjoyed watching Buffy/Angel, but it was not a healthy relationship and so I never got very invested in it-- it was better for both characters that it failed. Buffy/Riley is probably the ideal relationship for her to have in the real world, but this is a Joss Whedon show and healthy, happy relationships are not allowed, so that had to go down (And Riley was, sadly, rather bland and boring). I don't know how I feel about Buffy/Spike; I haven't seen the later seasons so I don't know how it builds. From what I've had explained to me, I can somewhat understand the reasoning. But it's not very appealing to me emotionally, mostly because my general reaction (and this applies to Angel too) is that it is always a bad idea to date vampires if you are not also a vampire.

This goes for any mortal/immortal relationship really, but there's so many vampires in media now that it can stand on its own. Whenever I see some young girl swooning over a broody vampire guy, I just shake my head at the characters. It never works out. Interestingly, human guys don't seem to fall in love with vampire women as often-- I think the only pairing I've seen with that dynamic is Hoyt/Vampire Jessica on True Blood. But even that relationship has some major issues.

I'm actually not sure who I'd ship Buffy with, but I don't think it would be anyone on the show. It's a shame, because she goes through so much that I'd like to see her get some happiness, but as you noted before, the writers for Buffy seem to prefer will-they-won't-they drama rather than simply creating conflict through a continuing relationship.

Really the only ship I was completely behind was Willow/Oz because they were adorable, but again, happy stable relationships not allowed. Given that Seth Green left the show I think I'm mostly happy they didn't just kill him off. I enjoy watching Anya/Xander but I don't actually care about Xander as a character, so that's not as satisfying. So Buffy ends up being a really ship-free show for me. I suspect I'm probably in the minority on this one, though.