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Cultural dissonance...
Rather good comment on why people don't like Angel: I can sort of see people not liking Angel, nor being that into the character of Angel. I might also get not liking “The Prodigal” either. I think that there are plenty of people who aren’t into dudes angst-ing their lives away about their daddy issues. - Mark Watches.
Angel is sort of...a specific trope, and centers on a type of character played by a specific type of actor that either works for you or really, really doesn't. My brother and sisinlaw loved Angel, my mother who adores noir, found the series derivative, dull, and did not like the actor. I fell somewhere in between. I liked it and I didn't. I liked the actor and I didn't. So I saw both sides. Why they loved it, why she didn't. And it's worth noting I own all the seasons but Season 3 on DVD and have rewatched the damn thing on cable about three times, and wrote various essays on it. Also as much as I state I dislike Cordy? That's not true - since I wrote not one but two character essays on her, which Cordy fans loved. Same with Angel - I clearly loved and hated the character, since I wrote a lot about him.
Just as I see both sides of the Bangle scenario. And I see both sides of the non-shipper vs. shipper wars. Because I'm both a shipper and not a shipper. Non-shippers, I've realized, generally speaking, really don't understand shippers (relationship shippers not character shippers - just so there's no confusion) and tend to ...well, how to put this diplomatically? Get really snitty about the wars. They sort of look at shippers the same way that some people I know look at daytime soap opera fans or romance fans with bewildered and frustrated disdain.
Example?
CW: I can't believe you watch daytime soaps. That's so pedestrian.
ME: Says the woman who faithfully watches Hercules: The Legendary Journeys and Seventh Heaven.
CW: That's different.
ME: Different versions of camp.
CW: You'd realize that Broadway musicals aren't watchable if you appreciated OPERA and saw one.
Me: Sorry, I forgot Carmen isn't an Opera, nor is Porgy and Bess, my mistake. And of course the Rock Operas like Who's Tommy and Les Mis and Jesus Christ Super Star just don't count. If it's not in Italian or German and doesn't have a lot of AAAHHHHHHHH... AHHHHAHHH..Ariaaa...haaaiaaa. It's just not worthy!
CW: You do realize that Buffy is marketed to teen girls.
Me: Have you ever seen Buffy?
CW: No. Isn't it like Charmed?
ME: Really not. (Sigh)
Kidbro: I'm surprised you don't like Angel better than Buffy.
Me: Why?
Kidbro: It's more adult, deeper, more layered, darker...I like Buffy fine, until she started sleeping with Spike. Don't know what she's doing with that.
ME: (worth noting that kidbro fell in love with and married his high-school sweet heart, granted didn't get married until 20 years after they met and she was 8 months pregnant, but let's not get into technicalities): Angel annoys me sometimes...he's sort of silly.
Sisinlaw: Really? I find him adorable. Don't like Spike though.
Me: Okay who'd you guys vote for in the last election.
Sisinlaw/Kidbro: we didn't vote, we hated everyone.
ME: Uh...so how's the business going?
Sigh. Sometimes...It's dangerous discussing cultural interests. People can be so ...snitty about it.
Angel is sort of...a specific trope, and centers on a type of character played by a specific type of actor that either works for you or really, really doesn't. My brother and sisinlaw loved Angel, my mother who adores noir, found the series derivative, dull, and did not like the actor. I fell somewhere in between. I liked it and I didn't. I liked the actor and I didn't. So I saw both sides. Why they loved it, why she didn't. And it's worth noting I own all the seasons but Season 3 on DVD and have rewatched the damn thing on cable about three times, and wrote various essays on it. Also as much as I state I dislike Cordy? That's not true - since I wrote not one but two character essays on her, which Cordy fans loved. Same with Angel - I clearly loved and hated the character, since I wrote a lot about him.
Just as I see both sides of the Bangle scenario. And I see both sides of the non-shipper vs. shipper wars. Because I'm both a shipper and not a shipper. Non-shippers, I've realized, generally speaking, really don't understand shippers (relationship shippers not character shippers - just so there's no confusion) and tend to ...well, how to put this diplomatically? Get really snitty about the wars. They sort of look at shippers the same way that some people I know look at daytime soap opera fans or romance fans with bewildered and frustrated disdain.
Example?
CW: I can't believe you watch daytime soaps. That's so pedestrian.
ME: Says the woman who faithfully watches Hercules: The Legendary Journeys and Seventh Heaven.
CW: That's different.
ME: Different versions of camp.
CW: You'd realize that Broadway musicals aren't watchable if you appreciated OPERA and saw one.
Me: Sorry, I forgot Carmen isn't an Opera, nor is Porgy and Bess, my mistake. And of course the Rock Operas like Who's Tommy and Les Mis and Jesus Christ Super Star just don't count. If it's not in Italian or German and doesn't have a lot of AAAHHHHHHHH... AHHHHAHHH..Ariaaa...haaaiaaa. It's just not worthy!
CW: You do realize that Buffy is marketed to teen girls.
Me: Have you ever seen Buffy?
CW: No. Isn't it like Charmed?
ME: Really not. (Sigh)
Kidbro: I'm surprised you don't like Angel better than Buffy.
Me: Why?
Kidbro: It's more adult, deeper, more layered, darker...I like Buffy fine, until she started sleeping with Spike. Don't know what she's doing with that.
ME: (worth noting that kidbro fell in love with and married his high-school sweet heart, granted didn't get married until 20 years after they met and she was 8 months pregnant, but let's not get into technicalities): Angel annoys me sometimes...he's sort of silly.
Sisinlaw: Really? I find him adorable. Don't like Spike though.
Me: Okay who'd you guys vote for in the last election.
Sisinlaw/Kidbro: we didn't vote, we hated everyone.
ME: Uh...so how's the business going?
Sigh. Sometimes...It's dangerous discussing cultural interests. People can be so ...snitty about it.
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I think they wanted to make it darker, but their hands were tied by the network who were pushing in the opposite direction. You can tell where the network gave up and Whedon did what he wanted...(S4 and the end of S5), which is when it went in the direction the writer probably intended all along.
I haven't read any comics since 2010, so can't comment. The character of Angel? I liked him well enough in the TV series - interesting character. Fascinating in the last two seasons 4 and 5. S1 was hampered by Buffy, S2 by the uneven Darla story, S3 by the uneven baby plot. Granted S4 had the Cordy story, but it oddly bothered me less than the baby plot did. ;-)
Angel had its moments. The best bits were the beginning of S2 up to Pylea (which did not work for me), the Faith cross-over in S1 (which was rather brilliant), the Darla arc in S2-S3. The Holtz/Justine/Wes/Lilah bit in S3.
(If you excise Cordelia and baby Connor from S3 and S4, the series isn't bad at all.) The Fred/Wes/Gunn arc in S4 and the Angel/Connor/Faith arc in S4 was quite good as was the Wes/Lilah and Wes/Faith arcs in S4. S5? Spike/Angel made that season work. As did Illyria/Wes. I actually loved S5 and disliked S3. I have a lot of people on my flist who are the exact opposite, they loved S3 and hated S5. LOL!
no subject
I think they wanted to make it darker
I think that's probably true, but at the same time I'm not sure Whedon has it in him. Greenwalt, yes. The places where it went dark like at the end of S5 just come off as trying too hard for me. Not enough balance, for lack of a better word. To me there's a point where bleak goes full-circle and ends up in the same place as happy ever after.
I disregard the comics completely. :) If they hold any value, it's made me appreciate the character(s) from the shows a lot more.
I didn't like a lot of S5, but I did like the end of it after the Illyria stuff. I love the end of S4, myself and I actually thought it would have been a better ending to the verse than NFA because it did have that balance.
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I kept hopping in and out of Angel. I honestly think the main problem with Angel may have been Whedon. Noir really isn't Whedon's genre. Nor are redemption arcs... The best episodes in that series (with the exception of the Spike/Angel banter in S5 and the Illyria arc) were by Minear, Greenwalt and Bell.