Cultural dissonance...

[shadowkat]

Rather good comment on why people don't like Angel: I can sort of see people not liking Angel, nor being that into the character of Angel. I might also get not liking “The Prodigal” either. I think that there are plenty of people who aren’t into dudes angst-ing their lives away about their daddy issues. - Mark Watches.

Angel is sort of...a specific trope, and centers on a type of character played by a specific type of actor that either works for you or really, really doesn't. My brother and sisinlaw loved Angel, my mother who adores noir, found the series derivative, dull, and did not like the actor. I fell somewhere in between. I liked it and I didn't. I liked the actor and I didn't. So I saw both sides. Why they loved it, why she didn't. And it's worth noting I own all the seasons but Season 3 on DVD and have rewatched the damn thing on cable about three times, and wrote various essays on it. Also as much as I state I dislike Cordy? That's not true - since I wrote not one but two character essays on her, which Cordy fans loved. Same with Angel - I clearly loved and hated the character, since I wrote a lot about him.

Just as I see both sides of the Bangle scenario. And I see both sides of the non-shipper vs. shipper wars. Because I'm both a shipper and not a shipper. Non-shippers, I've realized, generally speaking, really don't understand shippers (relationship shippers not character shippers - just so there's no confusion) and tend to ...well, how to put this diplomatically? Get really snitty about the wars. They sort of look at shippers the same way that some people I know look at daytime soap opera fans or romance fans with bewildered and frustrated disdain.

Example?

CW: I can't believe you watch daytime soaps. That's so pedestrian.
ME: Says the woman who faithfully watches Hercules: The Legendary Journeys and Seventh Heaven.
CW: That's different.
ME: Different versions of camp.

CW: You'd realize that Broadway musicals aren't watchable if you appreciated OPERA and saw one.
Me: Sorry, I forgot Carmen isn't an Opera, nor is Porgy and Bess, my mistake. And of course the Rock Operas like Who's Tommy and Les Mis and Jesus Christ Super Star just don't count. If it's not in Italian or German and doesn't have a lot of AAAHHHHHHHH... AHHHHAHHH..Ariaaa...haaaiaaa. It's just not worthy!

CW: You do realize that Buffy is marketed to teen girls.
Me: Have you ever seen Buffy?
CW: No. Isn't it like Charmed?
ME: Really not. (Sigh)

Kidbro: I'm surprised you don't like Angel better than Buffy.
Me: Why?
Kidbro: It's more adult, deeper, more layered, darker...I like Buffy fine, until she started sleeping with Spike. Don't know what she's doing with that.
ME: (worth noting that kidbro fell in love with and married his high-school sweet heart, granted didn't get married until 20 years after they met and she was 8 months pregnant, but let's not get into technicalities): Angel annoys me sometimes...he's sort of silly.
Sisinlaw: Really? I find him adorable. Don't like Spike though.
Me: Okay who'd you guys vote for in the last election.
Sisinlaw/Kidbro: we didn't vote, we hated everyone.
ME: Uh...so how's the business going?

Sigh. Sometimes...It's dangerous discussing cultural interests. People can be so ...snitty about it.

Comments

[annegables.livejournal.com]

You totally made my night with this!

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Cool! And thanks!

[rebcake.livejournal.com]

Yep. I make no secret in RL about my Buffy!love, and I've met a couple of people who are all "Angel is better then Buffy. The end." Not, "I enjoy it more" or "it's more relatable for me", just "it's better". I don't know what to do with that.

However, I've also caught myself quashing someone's Angel (or TVD) squee mid-way into some statement I'm making, and then I feel like a louse and try to backtrack. Let the people have their squee!

My dad was a professor at a provincial university, and it drove him absolutely crazy that the head of the music department forbade opera in his department, because he didn't like it. I think my dad purposely pursued opera in response to this attitude. (He was in a totally different department.)

Why do people go around making pronouncements and huge generalizations, and closing themselves off to huge classes of things? Is there any point? I just don't get it.

I mean, yeah, I've sort of turned my back on straight drama after decades of getting seriously bummed out by stuff. I sort of feel like I've done my time with holocaust stories, for instance. It's not like it's not rich story territory, it's just that I feel like I've already battered my head against that unchangeable historical monolith, and I just don't want to keep going there. (The ridiculous catharsis of the end of Inglorious Basterds notwithstanding.)

Family calls me to the temple of entertainment for something silly! Ta!

[snickfic]

However, I've also caught myself quashing someone's Angel (or TVD) squee mid-way into some statement I'm making

Do tell! I don't hate TVD, but I don't love it like everyone on my flist, either. I'm a season and a half in, and I... don't care? But I can't articulate why. Tell me your reasons?

[rebcake.livejournal.com]

I've only seen the first episode. At no point in that episode did it subvert the dominant paradigm or surprise me. Apparently, it got better, but life is too short. My sister-in-law has a saying that is applicable to all sorts of cultural things that don't appeal: "It's not for you." The trick is to find the things that ARE for you/me/that guy over there, and it could be anything! Be open, but do not be buffaloed!

I appear to be full of pronouncements today. Tsk.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I tell people this all the time...it either works for you or it doesn't.
Taste is bewildering. It's like food in a way...my Grandmother hates lemons, I like them. There's people who love brussel sprouts apparently...and others who loathe them. We just have different mental taste buds. ;-)

For me? I find TVD like cotton candy. It's just fun. I can't say I'm in love with it. Don't feel a need to write in-depth meta. But I do enjoy making fun of it. And it has a wicked sense of humor - I like snark and Williamson is rather snarky at times. (It should be noted that I liked the Scream films a lot and enjoyed Dawson's Creek...there was a sort of underlying snarkiness that I appreciated.)

But, there are shows my flist loves that I just don't like. And it admittedly took me a while to enjoy Doctor Who. (I prefer Moffat to RT Davies...for some reason, I'm guessing the dry wit.)

[snickfic]

Yeah, when I started watching everyone warned me that the first six episodes or so were pretty awful. And lo, they were! It does get better later in terms of writing and plotting, and things get less soapy down the road.

And yet, still Not My Show.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I mean, yeah, I've sort of turned my back on straight drama after decades of getting seriously bummed out by stuff. I sort of feel like I've done my time with holocaust stories, for instance. It's not like it's not rich story territory, it's just that I feel like I've already battered my head against that unchangeable historical monolith, and I just don't want to keep going there. (The ridiculous catharsis of the end of Inglorious Basterds notwithstanding.)

Somewhat the same way. It's my problem with The Killing and Breaking Bad and similar series.

Yet, for some reason, don't have that problem with GoT, so go figure.

Also I can't read or watch holocaust films or books any longer...got burned out on it finally. Too painful.

However, I've also caught myself quashing someone's Angel (or TVD) squee mid-way into some statement I'm making, and then I feel like a louse and try to backtrack. Let the people have their squee!

I had problems with TVD for a bit, because I love making fun of it. And that bugged people because they took it personally. I had to tell them, no, I'm not judging you, I'm just having fun. Gave up. Had to do the same thing with the Buffy comics...my fun snark was unfortunately quashing their squee...and making them unhappy, and I felt like a louse. So I gave up and stopped.

Similar with Twilight....I can't stand that book. But, I get that others love it and why. Many family members and co-workers do. Life is too short to argue about it.

[embers-log.livejournal.com]

I've always thought of Angel as been the odd man out of Whedon TV shows (everyone loves Firefly and Buffy, and a lot of people mention Dollhouse, but everyone forgets to even put Angel on the list... at least everyone I talk to online).
I'm amazed that you know so many Angel fans!

But of course I don't mean to be snitty about it; I do own all 5 seasons of Angel... I only wanted the 5th season, but all of them were on sale super cheap at costco a few years ago.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I have no idea what my flist prefers. I've decided to do another poll to figure it out. Which probably won't tell me anything, since 65% of my flist which posts never takes memes any more.

Of the one's that post to my flist, not necessarily comment, but post entries? It's about a 60/40 gambit. 60% loves Buffy, 40% prefers Angel. 5% likes Firefly. 10% likes Dollhouse. Oddly more people like Dollhouse than Firefly. But hard to tell, this may have changed.

I know a lot of them really hated Dollhouse. There were a lot of anti-Dollhouse posts. My posts on Dollhouse at the time, believe it or not, were reactions to the anti-Dollhouse posts on my flist. There was also a lot of hate directed at Firefly. Neither the fanboard I was on at the time nor my lj friends liked that show, actually I don't know more than 10 people who liked it. But that may have changed. My flist has admittedly changed since Firefly aired.

At any rate...my experience with fandom was the opposite of yours. I know a lot of Angel the Series Fans. ATPO Board and Angel's Soul were moderated by Angel shippers who adored Angel the Series. As was Buffy Cross and Stake.
And of course there's my own brother. ;-)

[embers-log.livejournal.com]

Well I think you know your flist pretty well... I'm really surprised by the numbers you are getting at your poll!

I was never at the ATPO board, Angel's Soul, and/or Buffy Cross and Stake... my experience online w/the Buffy verse was all from Crumbling Walls & Marsters Mobsters (two 100% Spike shipper sites).
And it has been years since I've been anywhere except FireflyFans.com and Whedonesque, which has given me the impression that Firefly is still the be all and end all (and there are still hopes for a Serenity sequel).

So clearly I'm out of touch with huge parts of the fandom! LOL

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Well I think you know your flist pretty well... I'm really surprised by the numbers you are getting at your poll!

Hee. Well...I have the advantage of reading their posts and comments over the years. They are a rather opinionated bunch, I will give them that. But then so am I. Not wishy washy whatsoever, no holding back, right to the punch!

I sort of like a healthy discussion. Or variety of opinions. I love to scroll down and see two diametrically opposed posts on my flist.
When everyone agrees...I get a bit bored. I blame my family - my parents fell in love having lengthy political debates. Mom would defend Eisenhower and Dad would defend Roosevelt. Question everything - they taught me and surround yourself with people who constantly challenge you.

So...I went to the more diversified boards. The problem with Crumbling Walls and Marsters Mobsters is they were about 95% female and not all that diverse. I'd post an essay and all I'd get in response was - "great essay!" or "thank you" or "why did you criticize Spike?"
Buffy Cross and Stake was similar. I'd post an essay on ATPO and I'd get well history, ethics, legal discourse, and rigorous discussion.
Also I became a better writer. I was intellectually challenged. And I learned stuff.

I guess it's what you are looking for online. Never much of a chatter...I like healthy intellectual debate and discourse. Again, I blame my upbringing.;-) (Keep in mind, I went to law school. ;-) )

PS: Thanks for the book, got it in the mail today. Haven't gotten yours off yet.

[embers-log.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I wasn't looking for diversified boards. LOL
I was friends w/talimama and biffsbabe, who were both moderators at Marsters Mobsters, so even though most of the people there were inarticulate (to say the least), it was always great to talk to my friends... Since they were moderators they were online there a lot, and I was really just looking for like minded people who were articulate (and a little snarky).
I wasn't looking for arguments (or debate, which too often regresses into arguments) online. I had started out my online experience by having the AR 'debate' w/some Bangel women who were really nasty/mean/aggressive... I wasn't wanting any more of that. Bookkeepers are like the opposite of lawyers, we work alone, and we want peace & quiet.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

LOL! While I gravitated online for discussion purposes. I drove the guy who ran the "Spoilerslayer" site nuts with emails, he finally told me to take it to Buffy Cross and Stake. Then some kind soul asked to repost an essay I wrote to ATPO and I followed - that board was challenging. You had to write really well and clearly. But, I'm also highly analytical - I love to dissect things. Particularly with other people. You should see how my mother and I dissect books, films and tv shows over the phone.

My difficulty is boredom. I get bored easily. Kansas City killed me. No diversity. While NYC is heaven. Same way on line...the more diverse the opinions the happier I was.

[sophist.livejournal.com]

It's always interesting to me that AtS fans seem very insistent that it was the better show. Of course they're entitled to their opinion, but it's pretty obviously a minority one. Maybe that's why they always make such a big deal out of it, because I rarely see BtVS fans bother to make any comparison at all.

[local-max.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I think it's very much because it's a minority opinion. On those occasions when someone describes AtS as the better (or, more frequently, more mature/adult show), BtVS fans (myself included, perhaps sadly) tend to get more indignant/defensive and then make the comparison explicitly. It's just that while most discussions of BtVS are about BtVS, I feel like most of the popular press surrounding AtS is either about how it's a pale shadow of BtVS/it's better than BtVS/etc. I think it's something that is endemic to spinoffs, particularly less-popular spinoffs, and particularly particularly spinoffs that maintain closeish ties with the original show. There are much more people who have only watched BtVS and never bothered with AtS than the reverse.

[local-max.livejournal.com]

I tend to be in-between on Angel as well -- I like his story quite a bit of the time, but am disinterested other times. I do too disagree with the idea that AtS was more adult/layered/mature/etc. Well, more adult, perhaps -- insofar as it dealt with a somewhat older period in one's life than BtVS did. But I personally still find BtVS still more...enlightening about life as a twentysomething than AtS, even if its ostensible focus was younger. But I do like AtS a lot (just less than BtVS).

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

We appear to have similar feelings regarding Angel. Angel frustrated me, I kept wanting to tell the writers..."come on, make up your minds...either make the character dark or don't"...either go there or don't. Stop wussing out at the last minute. Go for the full Soprano treatment! But they couldn't on the WB and I get that. F/X, maybe.

OTOH...it did make Angel a bit more complex, wishy-washy maybe, but complex.

Buffy, I felt was riskier. They seemed to know what they were doing and have a game plan. Also, from my perspective, it was funnier. (My brother loves humilation comedy or slap-stick, and I can't stand it. Angel relied heavily on this type of comedy, while Buffy tended to rely more on verbal quips and snark or wit. So I found Buffy better written, it's dialogue was snappier, while Angel seemed to be more into visuals. Which is also true of my bro and I, he prefers visuals and cinematography or art direction, while I'm a word-smith and more interested in banter and dialogue. Another difference was Buffy had a female lead, it had a lot of female characters, and the male character or love interest was in some ways thrust in the classic female role, while Angel was traditional heterosexual male/female noir pulp roles - which I'm clearly sensitive to. )

[jaymi-leaf.livejournal.com]

I agree. I've had my squee harshed so many times by people that I work hard on not judging people's choices of entertainment now. Lots of people at my work love Twilight, I read the first book and thought it was awful but if they enjoy it then that's fine and there's no need for me to tell them they're silly for liking it (I suppose that's my feeling about religion as well, it's not for me but if it gives someone comfort and joy who am I to judge, we're all just trying to get by). My parents hate soaps but I went through a period when I used to watch them a lot and I felt really judged for it by them, like I'd sneak off to my room to watch them and pretend I was watching something else.

It's only in the last few years that I've really been open about my Buffy love (well, not the extent of it, I think that might scare a few people) and the reaction I get is usually mixed between people who haven't seen the show and think its silly/girly/too feminist (seriously)/soapy and those who have seen it and like it (I'm not sure I've met a person whose watched the whole of Buffy and doesn't like it). I don't much care (anymore) if people look down on me for loving the show because they obviously just don't know what they're talking about, I tend to feel the same way with a lot of discussions though whether it's about politics/religion/sport/tv/music... give me a reasoned argument and I'll have a discussion with you, give me a baseless opinion and I've got nothing to say.

And I really dislike the anti-shipping stuff you see around, particularly as a lot of it seems to have an undercurrent of sexism in it.

Re: AtS, I love it but I love it as part of the Buffyverse family, for me it has a lot more problematic elements than Buffy and more weak episodes plus while it has some very good episodes in it (usually written by Tim Minear) it doesn't really have the huge iconic episodes that Buffy has (Hush, Restless, The Body, OMWF). I connect far more with the characters on Buffy (Buffy, Spike, Dawn, Tara) than on Angel (Cordelia, Connor, Angel sometimes) and that's what it comes down to in the end for me.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Have had more or less similar experiences.

* I tried to read the first book of Twilight and it just did not work for me.
The writing was too close to how I wrote when I was 14. And the story was ...offensive to me. A wimpy girl whose life is defined by a guy. Ugh. But..
as was explained to me by an Aunt - it is a fantasy trope that appeals to many women...the idea of being protected, of swept off your feet by this dangerous but powerful man who will take care of you and treat you like a princess has a certain appeal. I get that. And judging people's fantasies...is a bit like judging their politics or religion...as long as they aren't hurting you or themselves? Who cares. Let them have their fun. It's like Shades of Grey - the woman who wrote it has a happy marriage, a loving hubby and two boys, so she makes her life a bit fuller by indulging in a little fantasy...don't we all?

*I'm careful who I'm open about my Buffy love to. I don't tell most people.
Really don't share my cultural interests with most people. Like you, been kicked one too many times for it. I tend to like off-kilter things. (such as soap operas, comic books, sci-fantasy shows, young adult fantasy/sci-fi, romance novels, erotica, pulp noir mystery novels, etc. I also like "critically" acclaimed stuff. I'm eclectic or diverse in my taste. It bewilders people who try to pigeon hole me.)

*And I really dislike the anti-shipping stuff you see around, particularly as a lot of it seems to have an undercurrent of sexism in it.

True. Except...I was talking more about..snitty comments on it. People who are women or clearly feminist who just don't get shipping a relationship. OR the "wars". They don't understand why Spuffy fans resent Bangle fans and vice versa. They just don't get it. And they don't get the issues. (I do.
Been a fan of soap operas and comic books since forever and no one does shipping wars like soap operas and marvel comic books. I've seen it in everything. And it's always tragically hopeless because as everyone who has ever watched a long-running serial knows...the writer never allows the hero to find true love. It's always unresolved. Shippers are pretty much masochists at heart, which is what the people who don't get it understand. The masochistic hope for something that won't happen. It's so...adorably human, hope. Hope that we will be the on who will the lottery. That our underdog sports team will win against all odds (yes, I'm a NY Mets fan, sad but true), and the hope that our ship, no matter the odds, will sail.)

* Similar on ATS, I just preferred the humor and characters and storyline better on Buffy, I'm not quite sure why. There's numerous reasons, but it all just comes down to..taste. I just happen to prefer grapefruit to orange juice for some reason.

[annegables.livejournal.com]

Angel could have been a better show if some collosal mistakes had not been made. And I simply say that because it went adult places that Buffy never quite went to (even with all the sexcapades!). But I use the word 'better' in a relative sense such as Buffy is better than Twilight. Doesn't mean that millions of people don't like Twilight. Just when measured by certain standards such as writing and intelligence, it's just....better!!

However, that doesn't mean I have the right to rain on anyone's parade when they are squeeing. And I have learned to converse on these subjects with patience and relative calmness. It does mean that I can laugh like crazy when they are gone, though! And calmly put a stroke through their name on my besties list.

I think that a lot in the industry recognize greatness, though. I mean, the shoutouts to Buffy in word and in scenes that are all through TVD is kind of neat. And they make fun of Twilight as well! Yes, TVD took some getting used to as they are going all out drama/fright night and doing very well at it. (If not watching this show then please take the time to watch the Damon best ofs on You Tube. Worth your time - he's hilarious!) They are not attempting to do the other ten tropes at the same time that Whedon was always aspiring to and sometimes reaching.

So does this make me obnoxious when I go all judgey in my mind while not wrecking their squee? I suppose it does. But as long as you like something of Joss Whedons, Ron Moores or J.J. Abrams - then we are probably good to go! I guess I am a card carrying geek! I think Felicia says it all on her song "I'm the One That's Cool"!!! Check it out on You Tube - very funny...

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I think the problem Angel had is it didn't try to do anything new - nor did it want to..to be fair. Whedon wasn't trying to break new ground here, he was just trying to do a cool spin off - that had a dark anti-hero at its core. Actually that may have been the "new" thing - the tragic anti-hero that everyone thought was redeemable but would come to a tragic end. (That to be honest, was why my brother thought I'd prefer it. Because he knows I love gritty noir with anti-hero characters.)

They set it up as a sort of Noir Detective Serial featuring a Vampire (which had been done before.) They didn't try to subvert anything and Whedon/Greenwalt really didn't have a clear idea of what they wanted to do. I think they wanted to make it a lot darker than it was, to make Angel far less heroic, but the network wouldn't let them. And they struggled with it. Also at that time period it was a harder sell, now...not a problem. There's precedent.

Buffy? Whedon knew what he wanted to do. He'd thought it out. It was outlined in his head. Also, Buffy was the hero's journey, she wasn't an anti-hero - that's an easier sell. Angel? It was basically, I'm making this up as I go and wherever the ratings take us. And that is a problem...tends to make the plotting a bit...sloppy. Oh and can I make it really dark and make the character unlikable? Oh, I can't? Why???

Also, add to this, the problems behind the scenes. The network had problems with Greenwalt and CC allegedly. (They also had issues with Emma Caulfield, but she was supporting so it didn't matter). It was not an expensive series, low budget, and they drove the budget up...do to time delays. Whether that's true or not? I don't know. I do know that there was in-fighting. And a big turn-over, which happens a lot with tv shows. It happened on the West Wing.
It happened on Buffy. But on Angel - it hurt the series.

1. Glenn Quinn was an addict and they had to write him out.
2. Charisma Carpenter had problems with the network heads who requested Whedon get rid of her (I don't know exactly why...but CC and Greenwalt were not liked by FOX for some reason...and both wanted to leave by the end of S3/S4.) Due to the way CC was treated, and her decision to get pregnant at the end of S3 - S4's plot line had to be drastically changed.
3. Key actors such as Julie Benze, Elizabeth Rohem, Christian Kane and Juliet Landau weren't put on contract status, had no idea if or when they were needed - so they took other parts and were unavailable. As a result the writers had to drastically change their story. (This happened on Buffy too, but with not the same level of players - on Buffy - it was Lindsey Crouse, Seth Green and later Amber Benson and the actress who played Jenny Calendar (S7) ).
4. The series was prematurely cancelled. So the last five episodes were written quickly.

All of this is sort of true of most tv series. Buffy did have similar issues.

As for preference? I think it depends. My brother loved Angel. I was ambivalent, and kept giving up on it with lots of coaxing to come back. My brother gave up on Buffy in S6. I gave up on Angel in S3. He loves humliation comedy and physical comedy, I can't stand it. Most of the comedy on Angel was humilation comedy. (I can't stand the dance scene...it makes me cringe. Other's see it as hilarious, my brother and sisinlaw do.)

TVD? I agree. I'm watching for Damon's snark. He's hilarious.

[infinitewhale.livejournal.com]

It's more adult, deeper, more layered, darker...

I might agree that it's darker in the sense that it's more bleak and literally darker since most of it takes place at night, but the rest...Nah. I think it *tried* to be those things and in doing so tripped over itself. Frankly, I think some things were downright childish. Like Angel's Dark Side stuff in S1 and in the end his epiphany is more or less the same one 16 year-old Buffy had in S1. I think that's what plays to this belief. Buffy was/is seen as a teen show about 'Barbie with a Kung-Fu Grip' so people look at it with that in mind.

I've come to like Angel (the character) more lately, though.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

See my response to annegables above.

I think they wanted to make it darker, but their hands were tied by the network who were pushing in the opposite direction. You can tell where the network gave up and Whedon did what he wanted...(S4 and the end of S5), which is when it went in the direction the writer probably intended all along.

I haven't read any comics since 2010, so can't comment. The character of Angel? I liked him well enough in the TV series - interesting character. Fascinating in the last two seasons 4 and 5. S1 was hampered by Buffy, S2 by the uneven Darla story, S3 by the uneven baby plot. Granted S4 had the Cordy story, but it oddly bothered me less than the baby plot did. ;-)

Angel had its moments. The best bits were the beginning of S2 up to Pylea (which did not work for me), the Faith cross-over in S1 (which was rather brilliant), the Darla arc in S2-S3. The Holtz/Justine/Wes/Lilah bit in S3.
(If you excise Cordelia and baby Connor from S3 and S4, the series isn't bad at all.) The Fred/Wes/Gunn arc in S4 and the Angel/Connor/Faith arc in S4 was quite good as was the Wes/Lilah and Wes/Faith arcs in S4. S5? Spike/Angel made that season work. As did Illyria/Wes. I actually loved S5 and disliked S3. I have a lot of people on my flist who are the exact opposite, they loved S3 and hated S5. LOL!

[infinitewhale.livejournal.com]

I think they wanted to make it darker

I think that's probably true, but at the same time I'm not sure Whedon has it in him. Greenwalt, yes. The places where it went dark like at the end of S5 just come off as trying too hard for me. Not enough balance, for lack of a better word. To me there's a point where bleak goes full-circle and ends up in the same place as happy ever after.

I disregard the comics completely. :) If they hold any value, it's made me appreciate the character(s) from the shows a lot more.

I didn't like a lot of S5, but I did like the end of it after the Illyria stuff. I love the end of S4, myself and I actually thought it would have been a better ending to the verse than NFA because it did have that balance.

[annegables.livejournal.com]

You are dead on with all your good bits/bad bits of Angel. If you get rid of the Evil Cordelia thing then you get rid of the 'having a baby with Connor' things and everything is kind of ok again! And the silly baby Connor bits - the idea of Connor was ok but they went a bid odd with it. If they had continued with the thing that everybody wanted to kill Connor it would have been more interesting than the whole how do we send connor to college thing.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Exactly. I liked Connor - VK sold that character - but Whedon's insane obsession with the sci-fi mystical baby trope from hell...almost killed the Angel series (in much the same way it killed the comic books to be honest).

I kept hopping in and out of Angel. I honestly think the main problem with Angel may have been Whedon. Noir really isn't Whedon's genre. Nor are redemption arcs... The best episodes in that series (with the exception of the Spike/Angel banter in S5 and the Illyria arc) were by Minear, Greenwalt and Bell.