Cultural dissonance...
Apr. 3rd, 2012 09:41 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
shadowkatRather good comment on why people don't like Angel: I can sort of see people not liking Angel, nor being that into the character of Angel. I might also get not liking “The Prodigal” either. I think that there are plenty of people who aren’t into dudes angst-ing their lives away about their daddy issues. - Mark Watches.
Angel is sort of...a specific trope, and centers on a type of character played by a specific type of actor that either works for you or really, really doesn't. My brother and sisinlaw loved Angel, my mother who adores noir, found the series derivative, dull, and did not like the actor. I fell somewhere in between. I liked it and I didn't. I liked the actor and I didn't. So I saw both sides. Why they loved it, why she didn't. And it's worth noting I own all the seasons but Season 3 on DVD and have rewatched the damn thing on cable about three times, and wrote various essays on it. Also as much as I state I dislike Cordy? That's not true - since I wrote not one but two character essays on her, which Cordy fans loved. Same with Angel - I clearly loved and hated the character, since I wrote a lot about him.
Just as I see both sides of the Bangle scenario. And I see both sides of the non-shipper vs. shipper wars. Because I'm both a shipper and not a shipper. Non-shippers, I've realized, generally speaking, really don't understand shippers (relationship shippers not character shippers - just so there's no confusion) and tend to ...well, how to put this diplomatically? Get really snitty about the wars. They sort of look at shippers the same way that some people I know look at daytime soap opera fans or romance fans with bewildered and frustrated disdain.
Example?
CW: I can't believe you watch daytime soaps. That's so pedestrian.
ME: Says the woman who faithfully watches Hercules: The Legendary Journeys and Seventh Heaven.
CW: That's different.
ME: Different versions of camp.
CW: You'd realize that Broadway musicals aren't watchable if you appreciated OPERA and saw one.
Me: Sorry, I forgot Carmen isn't an Opera, nor is Porgy and Bess, my mistake. And of course the Rock Operas like Who's Tommy and Les Mis and Jesus Christ Super Star just don't count. If it's not in Italian or German and doesn't have a lot of AAAHHHHHHHH... AHHHHAHHH..Ariaaa...haaaiaaa. It's just not worthy!
CW: You do realize that Buffy is marketed to teen girls.
Me: Have you ever seen Buffy?
CW: No. Isn't it like Charmed?
ME: Really not. (Sigh)
Kidbro: I'm surprised you don't like Angel better than Buffy.
Me: Why?
Kidbro: It's more adult, deeper, more layered, darker...I like Buffy fine, until she started sleeping with Spike. Don't know what she's doing with that.
ME: (worth noting that kidbro fell in love with and married his high-school sweet heart, granted didn't get married until 20 years after they met and she was 8 months pregnant, but let's not get into technicalities): Angel annoys me sometimes...he's sort of silly.
Sisinlaw: Really? I find him adorable. Don't like Spike though.
Me: Okay who'd you guys vote for in the last election.
Sisinlaw/Kidbro: we didn't vote, we hated everyone.
ME: Uh...so how's the business going?
Sigh. Sometimes...It's dangerous discussing cultural interests. People can be so ...snitty about it.
Angel is sort of...a specific trope, and centers on a type of character played by a specific type of actor that either works for you or really, really doesn't. My brother and sisinlaw loved Angel, my mother who adores noir, found the series derivative, dull, and did not like the actor. I fell somewhere in between. I liked it and I didn't. I liked the actor and I didn't. So I saw both sides. Why they loved it, why she didn't. And it's worth noting I own all the seasons but Season 3 on DVD and have rewatched the damn thing on cable about three times, and wrote various essays on it. Also as much as I state I dislike Cordy? That's not true - since I wrote not one but two character essays on her, which Cordy fans loved. Same with Angel - I clearly loved and hated the character, since I wrote a lot about him.
Just as I see both sides of the Bangle scenario. And I see both sides of the non-shipper vs. shipper wars. Because I'm both a shipper and not a shipper. Non-shippers, I've realized, generally speaking, really don't understand shippers (relationship shippers not character shippers - just so there's no confusion) and tend to ...well, how to put this diplomatically? Get really snitty about the wars. They sort of look at shippers the same way that some people I know look at daytime soap opera fans or romance fans with bewildered and frustrated disdain.
Example?
CW: I can't believe you watch daytime soaps. That's so pedestrian.
ME: Says the woman who faithfully watches Hercules: The Legendary Journeys and Seventh Heaven.
CW: That's different.
ME: Different versions of camp.
CW: You'd realize that Broadway musicals aren't watchable if you appreciated OPERA and saw one.
Me: Sorry, I forgot Carmen isn't an Opera, nor is Porgy and Bess, my mistake. And of course the Rock Operas like Who's Tommy and Les Mis and Jesus Christ Super Star just don't count. If it's not in Italian or German and doesn't have a lot of AAAHHHHHHHH... AHHHHAHHH..Ariaaa...haaaiaaa. It's just not worthy!
CW: You do realize that Buffy is marketed to teen girls.
Me: Have you ever seen Buffy?
CW: No. Isn't it like Charmed?
ME: Really not. (Sigh)
Kidbro: I'm surprised you don't like Angel better than Buffy.
Me: Why?
Kidbro: It's more adult, deeper, more layered, darker...I like Buffy fine, until she started sleeping with Spike. Don't know what she's doing with that.
ME: (worth noting that kidbro fell in love with and married his high-school sweet heart, granted didn't get married until 20 years after they met and she was 8 months pregnant, but let's not get into technicalities): Angel annoys me sometimes...he's sort of silly.
Sisinlaw: Really? I find him adorable. Don't like Spike though.
Me: Okay who'd you guys vote for in the last election.
Sisinlaw/Kidbro: we didn't vote, we hated everyone.
ME: Uh...so how's the business going?
Sigh. Sometimes...It's dangerous discussing cultural interests. People can be so ...snitty about it.
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no subject
Date: 2012-04-06 05:01 am (UTC)Hee. Well...I have the advantage of reading their posts and comments over the years. They are a rather opinionated bunch, I will give them that. But then so am I. Not wishy washy whatsoever, no holding back, right to the punch!
I sort of like a healthy discussion. Or variety of opinions. I love to scroll down and see two diametrically opposed posts on my flist.
When everyone agrees...I get a bit bored. I blame my family - my parents fell in love having lengthy political debates. Mom would defend Eisenhower and Dad would defend Roosevelt. Question everything - they taught me and surround yourself with people who constantly challenge you.
So...I went to the more diversified boards. The problem with Crumbling Walls and Marsters Mobsters is they were about 95% female and not all that diverse. I'd post an essay and all I'd get in response was - "great essay!" or "thank you" or "why did you criticize Spike?"
Buffy Cross and Stake was similar. I'd post an essay on ATPO and I'd get well history, ethics, legal discourse, and rigorous discussion.
Also I became a better writer. I was intellectually challenged. And I learned stuff.
I guess it's what you are looking for online. Never much of a chatter...I like healthy intellectual debate and discourse. Again, I blame my upbringing.;-) (Keep in mind, I went to law school. ;-) )
PS: Thanks for the book, got it in the mail today. Haven't gotten yours off yet.
no subject
Date: 2012-04-06 03:36 pm (UTC)I was friends w/
I wasn't looking for arguments (or debate, which too often regresses into arguments) online. I had started out my online experience by having the AR 'debate' w/some Bangel women who were really nasty/mean/aggressive... I wasn't wanting any more of that. Bookkeepers are like the opposite of lawyers, we work alone, and we want peace & quiet.
no subject
Date: 2012-04-06 03:59 pm (UTC)My difficulty is boredom. I get bored easily. Kansas City killed me. No diversity. While NYC is heaven. Same way on line...the more diverse the opinions the happier I was.