Cultural dissonance...

[shadowkat]

Rather good comment on why people don't like Angel: I can sort of see people not liking Angel, nor being that into the character of Angel. I might also get not liking “The Prodigal” either. I think that there are plenty of people who aren’t into dudes angst-ing their lives away about their daddy issues. - Mark Watches.

Angel is sort of...a specific trope, and centers on a type of character played by a specific type of actor that either works for you or really, really doesn't. My brother and sisinlaw loved Angel, my mother who adores noir, found the series derivative, dull, and did not like the actor. I fell somewhere in between. I liked it and I didn't. I liked the actor and I didn't. So I saw both sides. Why they loved it, why she didn't. And it's worth noting I own all the seasons but Season 3 on DVD and have rewatched the damn thing on cable about three times, and wrote various essays on it. Also as much as I state I dislike Cordy? That's not true - since I wrote not one but two character essays on her, which Cordy fans loved. Same with Angel - I clearly loved and hated the character, since I wrote a lot about him.

Just as I see both sides of the Bangle scenario. And I see both sides of the non-shipper vs. shipper wars. Because I'm both a shipper and not a shipper. Non-shippers, I've realized, generally speaking, really don't understand shippers (relationship shippers not character shippers - just so there's no confusion) and tend to ...well, how to put this diplomatically? Get really snitty about the wars. They sort of look at shippers the same way that some people I know look at daytime soap opera fans or romance fans with bewildered and frustrated disdain.

Example?

CW: I can't believe you watch daytime soaps. That's so pedestrian.
ME: Says the woman who faithfully watches Hercules: The Legendary Journeys and Seventh Heaven.
CW: That's different.
ME: Different versions of camp.

CW: You'd realize that Broadway musicals aren't watchable if you appreciated OPERA and saw one.
Me: Sorry, I forgot Carmen isn't an Opera, nor is Porgy and Bess, my mistake. And of course the Rock Operas like Who's Tommy and Les Mis and Jesus Christ Super Star just don't count. If it's not in Italian or German and doesn't have a lot of AAAHHHHHHHH... AHHHHAHHH..Ariaaa...haaaiaaa. It's just not worthy!

CW: You do realize that Buffy is marketed to teen girls.
Me: Have you ever seen Buffy?
CW: No. Isn't it like Charmed?
ME: Really not. (Sigh)

Kidbro: I'm surprised you don't like Angel better than Buffy.
Me: Why?
Kidbro: It's more adult, deeper, more layered, darker...I like Buffy fine, until she started sleeping with Spike. Don't know what she's doing with that.
ME: (worth noting that kidbro fell in love with and married his high-school sweet heart, granted didn't get married until 20 years after they met and she was 8 months pregnant, but let's not get into technicalities): Angel annoys me sometimes...he's sort of silly.
Sisinlaw: Really? I find him adorable. Don't like Spike though.
Me: Okay who'd you guys vote for in the last election.
Sisinlaw/Kidbro: we didn't vote, we hated everyone.
ME: Uh...so how's the business going?

Sigh. Sometimes...It's dangerous discussing cultural interests. People can be so ...snitty about it.

Comments

[annegables.livejournal.com]

You totally made my night with this!

[rebcake.livejournal.com]

Yep. I make no secret in RL about my Buffy!love, and I've met a couple of people who are all "Angel is better then Buffy. The end." Not, "I enjoy it more" or "it's more relatable for me", just "it's better". I don't know what to do with that.

However, I've also caught myself quashing someone's Angel (or TVD) squee mid-way into some statement I'm making, and then I feel like a louse and try to backtrack. Let the people have their squee!

My dad was a professor at a provincial university, and it drove him absolutely crazy that the head of the music department forbade opera in his department, because he didn't like it. I think my dad purposely pursued opera in response to this attitude. (He was in a totally different department.)

Why do people go around making pronouncements and huge generalizations, and closing themselves off to huge classes of things? Is there any point? I just don't get it.

I mean, yeah, I've sort of turned my back on straight drama after decades of getting seriously bummed out by stuff. I sort of feel like I've done my time with holocaust stories, for instance. It's not like it's not rich story territory, it's just that I feel like I've already battered my head against that unchangeable historical monolith, and I just don't want to keep going there. (The ridiculous catharsis of the end of Inglorious Basterds notwithstanding.)

Family calls me to the temple of entertainment for something silly! Ta!

[embers-log.livejournal.com]

I've always thought of Angel as been the odd man out of Whedon TV shows (everyone loves Firefly and Buffy, and a lot of people mention Dollhouse, but everyone forgets to even put Angel on the list... at least everyone I talk to online).
I'm amazed that you know so many Angel fans!

But of course I don't mean to be snitty about it; I do own all 5 seasons of Angel... I only wanted the 5th season, but all of them were on sale super cheap at costco a few years ago.

[sophist.livejournal.com]

It's always interesting to me that AtS fans seem very insistent that it was the better show. Of course they're entitled to their opinion, but it's pretty obviously a minority one. Maybe that's why they always make such a big deal out of it, because I rarely see BtVS fans bother to make any comparison at all.

[local-max.livejournal.com]

I tend to be in-between on Angel as well -- I like his story quite a bit of the time, but am disinterested other times. I do too disagree with the idea that AtS was more adult/layered/mature/etc. Well, more adult, perhaps -- insofar as it dealt with a somewhat older period in one's life than BtVS did. But I personally still find BtVS still more...enlightening about life as a twentysomething than AtS, even if its ostensible focus was younger. But I do like AtS a lot (just less than BtVS).

[jaymi-leaf.livejournal.com]

I agree. I've had my squee harshed so many times by people that I work hard on not judging people's choices of entertainment now. Lots of people at my work love Twilight, I read the first book and thought it was awful but if they enjoy it then that's fine and there's no need for me to tell them they're silly for liking it (I suppose that's my feeling about religion as well, it's not for me but if it gives someone comfort and joy who am I to judge, we're all just trying to get by). My parents hate soaps but I went through a period when I used to watch them a lot and I felt really judged for it by them, like I'd sneak off to my room to watch them and pretend I was watching something else.

It's only in the last few years that I've really been open about my Buffy love (well, not the extent of it, I think that might scare a few people) and the reaction I get is usually mixed between people who haven't seen the show and think its silly/girly/too feminist (seriously)/soapy and those who have seen it and like it (I'm not sure I've met a person whose watched the whole of Buffy and doesn't like it). I don't much care (anymore) if people look down on me for loving the show because they obviously just don't know what they're talking about, I tend to feel the same way with a lot of discussions though whether it's about politics/religion/sport/tv/music... give me a reasoned argument and I'll have a discussion with you, give me a baseless opinion and I've got nothing to say.

And I really dislike the anti-shipping stuff you see around, particularly as a lot of it seems to have an undercurrent of sexism in it.

Re: AtS, I love it but I love it as part of the Buffyverse family, for me it has a lot more problematic elements than Buffy and more weak episodes plus while it has some very good episodes in it (usually written by Tim Minear) it doesn't really have the huge iconic episodes that Buffy has (Hush, Restless, The Body, OMWF). I connect far more with the characters on Buffy (Buffy, Spike, Dawn, Tara) than on Angel (Cordelia, Connor, Angel sometimes) and that's what it comes down to in the end for me.

[annegables.livejournal.com]

Angel could have been a better show if some collosal mistakes had not been made. And I simply say that because it went adult places that Buffy never quite went to (even with all the sexcapades!). But I use the word 'better' in a relative sense such as Buffy is better than Twilight. Doesn't mean that millions of people don't like Twilight. Just when measured by certain standards such as writing and intelligence, it's just....better!!

However, that doesn't mean I have the right to rain on anyone's parade when they are squeeing. And I have learned to converse on these subjects with patience and relative calmness. It does mean that I can laugh like crazy when they are gone, though! And calmly put a stroke through their name on my besties list.

I think that a lot in the industry recognize greatness, though. I mean, the shoutouts to Buffy in word and in scenes that are all through TVD is kind of neat. And they make fun of Twilight as well! Yes, TVD took some getting used to as they are going all out drama/fright night and doing very well at it. (If not watching this show then please take the time to watch the Damon best ofs on You Tube. Worth your time - he's hilarious!) They are not attempting to do the other ten tropes at the same time that Whedon was always aspiring to and sometimes reaching.

So does this make me obnoxious when I go all judgey in my mind while not wrecking their squee? I suppose it does. But as long as you like something of Joss Whedons, Ron Moores or J.J. Abrams - then we are probably good to go! I guess I am a card carrying geek! I think Felicia says it all on her song "I'm the One That's Cool"!!! Check it out on You Tube - very funny...

[infinitewhale.livejournal.com]

It's more adult, deeper, more layered, darker...

I might agree that it's darker in the sense that it's more bleak and literally darker since most of it takes place at night, but the rest...Nah. I think it *tried* to be those things and in doing so tripped over itself. Frankly, I think some things were downright childish. Like Angel's Dark Side stuff in S1 and in the end his epiphany is more or less the same one 16 year-old Buffy had in S1. I think that's what plays to this belief. Buffy was/is seen as a teen show about 'Barbie with a Kung-Fu Grip' so people look at it with that in mind.

I've come to like Angel (the character) more lately, though.