Favorite Whedon TV Show Meme

[shadowkat]

I can't remember what Whedon tv shows my readership favors. So perhaps you can help? My current guess is that you rank them as follows:

1. Buffy
2. Angel (with about 25-45% preferring Angel to Buffy for various reasons)
3. Firefly
4. Dollhouse (with 65% squicked by the series and finding it unwatchable)


Only 5% read the comics and liked them. Everyone liked Dr. Horrible. Few read the X-men comics by Whedon or stuck with them. So comics Whedon - not a fav. Also few appear interested in the current films, Much Ado, Cabin in the Woods, or Avengers. Am I right?
Here's a poll to find out, assuming people participate. As all mathematicians and staticians know...polls are repsentative of the sampling. If only 20 people take the poll?
You guess based on those 20. So...I have approximately 150 who have friended me, of the 150, about 50 probably read on a daily basis, of the 50, 30% are into polls. So..I have no way of knowing, do I? The only way I can know is if everyone who reads my journal and likes or ever liked Whedon shows takes the poll. And that's well impossible. So this is ...far from an exact exercise. (A lesson to the people out there who do a lot of surveys for sociology, psychology and marketing classes - people? They aren't that reliable. You know that right? IF not, just read the internet - it will prove it to you. There's a reason that sociology, psychology and marketing are considering inexact sciences or soft. They rely on inexact data that can't be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. Lawyers love to poke holes in statistical data.)

That said, for a bit of fun, take the poll and see if you can prove me wrong? Feel free to link, since a lot of readers seem to be through links at times.

[Poll #1831422]

[Note: Won't be able to respond until late on Thursday or Friday, since I can no longer access personal blogs via my workplace. So can only access at home. PS: I reposted this poll fifteen minutes after first posting, because I screwed up on the last question and had to fix it. Now it should be fine. If you responded to the deleted post, please respond again. Thanks.]

[ETA: Read the comments. Fascinating.]

Comments

[fenchurche.livejournal.com]

I went back and changed my answer to the last question... because odds are good if I can't ever work up the nerve to see "Cabin in the Woods" in the theaters, I'll probably rent it.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Somewhat the same way. More likely to rent than watch in the theaters, if at all. That particular horror trope...I have problems with.

[sophist.livejournal.com]

I picked Dollhouse second, but that's based solely on S1. It took me a couple of watchings, but I get the idea. It still has weaknesses (ED's acting), but there's a real point there. AtS never interested me much even at its best and I find substantial parts of it unwatchable.

I rated Firefly last. This is a personal thing with me. The American movie tradition of romantic Southerners after the Civil War drives me nuts. Former Confederate soldiers were NOT heroes. They may have been personally brave, but they fought in support of one of the worst causes ever. Glorifying them was wrong.

When I watch Firefly, I can't get this background out of my head. I realize that the rebellion there didn't necessarily bear any resemblance to our Civil War. Nonetheless it resonates with themes that I find personally obnoxious and I can't really enjoy it.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

When I watch Firefly, I can't get this background out of my head. I realize that the rebellion there didn't necessarily bear any resemblance to our Civil War. Nonetheless it resonates with themes that I find personally obnoxious and I can't really enjoy it.

I have exactly the same problem. Well put. Whedon based it on the non-fiction best seller - The Killer Angels, which looks at the Civil War through the Confederacy's eyes. My Dad, who got his Master's in Social History, read the book and was fairly critical of it, told me that it had a fictional slant and romanticized segments here and there. He liked it, but,
had read better. Whedon fell in love with it - seeing it no doubt through the lense of the Western films that he'd studied. (He was a film major.)
Having studied the exact same films Whedon did and at the same time (he's about three to four years older than me...hee, almost 50!) I can say that they were a bit slanted towards the "South". The outlaws of the Old West were mainly disenfranchized Confederate soldiers with no homes to return to.
Jesse James, Billy the Kid, The Wild Bunch...all fell into that category to some degree. Okay maybe not Billy the Kid. And we all know what a great historian Whedon is, also how detail-oriented. (Neither. The man pulls stuff out of his hat and sucks at research.)

At any rate...if you don't analyze Firefly at all...it's sort of fun. If you do analyze it...it is highly offensive. Particularly if you are not a fan of Ayn Rand.

As I told a friend below who loves Firefly..
I'm of two minds about it. It's either a weird homage to Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged or a fun take on Han Solo's adventures as a smuggler under the Evil Empire.

[infinitewhale.livejournal.com]

Personally, I think Buffy and Angel are a few tiers above the other two. Firefly was too shortly lived to form a solid opinion, IMO. It's, like, what would we think of Buffy if it was only WTTH-IRYJ? Same time, it could have gotten much worse (Dollhouse S2). Beautiful rape!

I'm not seeing anything, but if you held a gun to my head, I'd see Much Ado. Cabin In the Woods is everything about Whedon I dislike and I've never been into Avengers.

[liliaeth]

My main issue with Firefly was the lack of decent actors and relatable characters. I gave the entire first season a chance and by the end of that I still couldn't give a damn about a single one of the characters. The closest I came to that was Jayne, but everyone else just left me cold.

I've seen series before where the first season was it's weak spot, like say SPN and Buffy, but even then, I would generally care about the characters by about half the first season. If a show can't even manage to get me to do that, then I give up on it.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Beautiful rape!

Thanks for unearthing memory of that interview. Ugghhh!!!!!!!!!!

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Okay, what do you know about Cabin in the Woods...that I don't? All I know is it's about a group of kids who go to a cabin and run smack into a government experiment that wants to torture them for kicks...by throwing zombies at them.
(OR that's what I figured out from the trailer. It appears to be Whedon and Goddard's critique of the modern horror film and reality genre, except I think Suzanne Collins did it better with the Hunger Games.)

The responses in the comments thread on Dollhouse are insane. People are so diametrically opposed on that series. It's like you really didn't see the same show.

[snickfic]

I realize this isn't a series, but outside of his TV shows my favorite Whedon project is Fray.

Rather to my surprise, I ranked Angel last out of the four. Dollhouse was a hot mess, but I still cared more about it than I cared about most of Ats.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Sorry, I forgot about Fray - that should have been in the comics/other medium/non-tv series section. It's not a tv show so doesn't count as part of the tv series section.

I deliberately separated the two. And I guess I lumped Fray in with the Buffy comics, which I admit was unfair, since I personally liked Fray and didn't like the Buffy comics.

[kwritten.livejournal.com]

I probably screwed all the data up by not ranking anything but the last two queries... but when people ask me to do this I always grab all four and scream "BUT THEY ARE MINE AND I LOVE THEM AND YOU CAN'T MAKE ME!"

. . . .

or at least, my entire brain shuts down and logic flies away and I just sort of space out until the conversation is over, hoping that no one will notice I didn't answer...

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

LOL! Which is why polls are highly inaccurate. I keep trying to explain this to people who swear by polls and surveys (usually evil marketing people and niave social psychology and sociology majors who have yet to discover the nightmare that is statistical manipulation.)

Thanks for trying.

The comments thread is amusing me to no end. People are all over the place.

Scroll through...and you'll see what I mean.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

I liked both Buffy and Angel relatively evenly.

Firefly annoyed the crap out of me with its failure to logically world-build. We were simply supposed to 'accept' for no reason whatsoever that in the future people would decide to adopt slang from a brief period of the late 19th century Western U.S., that female terraformers would wear long calico dresses, and that they'd use horses (relatively fragile creatures with temperature sensitivities) rather than the advanced vehicles they clearly possessed. All of it plus so much more simply made no 'world-building' sense and I knew that Whedon would never, ever, ever even try to build that world. We were simply to accept it... and I couldn't.

"Dollhouse" straight-up squicked me as a premise. Add in FOX's "prostitution yay!" ad campaign (seriously, that's what it looked like) and I was double squicked. (I was triply squicked when Whedon claimed that what went wrong with the series was that FOX reigned in the prostitution aspect. Apparently, he wanted more prostitution.) I really didn't like "Dollhouse."

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Firefly annoyed the crap out of me with its failure to logically world-build. We were simply supposed to 'accept' for no reason whatsoever that in the future people would decide to adopt slang from a brief period of the late 19th century Western U.S., that female terraformers would wear long calico dresses, and that they'd use horses (relatively fragile creatures with temperature sensitivities) rather than the advanced vehicles they clearly possessed. All of it plus so much more simply made no 'world-building' sense and I knew that Whedon would never, ever, ever even try to build that world. We were simply to accept it... and I couldn't.

I agree. (But if you read the comments directly below yours...you'd realize how funny this is. I'm talking polar opposites. The comment directly below states - that they loved Firefly because it had the best developed world of the series.) It's hilarious how diametrically opposed peoples views are on this comment thread. Makes me wonder if we all saw the same series...most likely didn't. ;-) (ie. You're Friends Aren't Watching the Same Show You Are and That's Okay.)

Anyhow, thanks. A lot of people on my flist were straight-up squicked by Dollhouse. I think that show seriously alienated half the Whedon fandom, while ironically bringing in new fans. (Again see: You're Friends Aren't Watching the Same TV SHow that You Are - article that I can't find the link to at the moment.) The diametrically opposed positions on Dollhouse and Firefly were sort of foreshadowing for the Buffy comics. Fandom split down the middle.

I can't say that I liked Dollhouse. It is the only one of Whedon's TV series that I don't own on DVD and feel no desire to re-watch and frankly don't want to. I think I know what Whedon was going for, but, like the comics, I don't think he knew how to do it. And unfortunately how he went about it was...a lot more offensive than well the intent. (He wanted to do a critique of torture porn and reality tv. I sort of want to send Whedon -- Suzanne Collins The Hunger Games with a note - this is how you do it! Of course I could be wrong about that. I honestly have no idea what is in his head, I have enough trouble's figuring out my own most of the time.)

That said...there were moments in Dollhouse that worked for me. But not enough to make up for the detractors. I wonder sometimes if the series would have worked better if Echo had been male and played by Alan Tudyke or
if the series had a better editor. Whedon, I think, works better under restraints.

[embers-log.livejournal.com]

I rank 'Firefly' the highest because I think it had the best cast and the tightest world vision...
Buffy is a VERY close second because it really had time to develop into something brilliant.
I rate Dollhouse third because I was fascinated by the flawed idea that never really worked (it might have worked better w/out Fox's interference).
And Angel is always last with me because I didn't like most of the cast and stories... And I hated everything about season 4 (I should recheck that, but I'm pretty sure I never liked anything from Season 4), however season 5 was somewhat a redemption....

None of the comics mean much to me, but I do adore 'Dr. Horrible', particularly the musical commentary!

And I will watch in the theaters and buy all three of the upcoming movies! I have high hopes for all three being big fun.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I rank 'Firefly' the highest because I think it had the best cast and the tightest world vision...

Interesting. Everyone else in the comments thread has the exact opposite response. LOL!

I almost want to see you guys discuss this at length. But I get enough of that sort of thing at work. ;-)

We're about the opposite on a few things here. I loved S4 Angel (the whole Lilah/Wes arc, the Angel/Angelus, the Faith/Wes story and Connor), and I won't tell you my feelings about Firefly which are admittedly convoluted and highly influenced by the various posts and negative essays I've read over the years. If you read the comments in this thread...that pretty much gives you a good idea.

Suffice it to say, to this day, I can't quite decide if Firefly is an insane sci-fi Western homage to Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged or just a fun homage to George Lucas' Han Solo - the Smuggler years - sort of a blend of WWII movies and Westerns. It probably would have helped if an actor other than Alan Tudyk resonated for me in any way, none did. Nathan Fillion, sorry to say, didn't work for me. ;-)

beer_goodfoamy convinced me recently of the brilliance of Doctor Horrible - stating it was a great critique of the super-hero genre, tricking the audience into rooting for the villain.

[gingerwall.livejournal.com]

Firefly was fantastic - I think in terms of the amount of awesomeness per episode it was better than Buffy. Great cast, great characters, great dialogue. They managed to have 9 main characters, and develop all of them. Plus there were not-white characters that were awesome and important! Wheden really perfected his ability to completely change tone between episodes and yet still have a cohesive-feeling for the show with Firefly. When I watched Buffy after I finished Firefly, I could totally see him figuring it out there. Restless reminded me a lot of Objects in Space in terms of surrealism. The chronology and the construction of Out of Gas was brilliant. Also Kaylee gets to have _tons_ of awesome sex with no horrible consequences. Yay!

But because Buffy had so much more time to develop, it actually accomplished more overall. So many brilliant episodes. So self-referential - you get more and more out of it every time you watch it - but not annoyingly so. After watching Buffy I get annoyed by other shows where the characters have zero memory of everything that happened before that isn't specifically related to whatever plot arc they are currently exploring. Like they haven't spent the spent 3 years doing X together. I love Buffy more than Firefly overall, I'm just not waxing as poetic, because that seems to be the general consensus (not the case with Firefly apparently - I didn't expect that.)

Angel has its wonderful moments: Cordy in seasons 1 and 2; Wesley's amazing progression; Fred being adorable; Gunn as a real character that isn't just a sassy black friend; Lilah and Lindsey being deliciously evil; Amy Acker transforming from into Ilyria - that was amazing beyond words. She is just so fucking talented. But overall, (somewhat) in the words of Mark: I'm just not super into watching a dude angst over his guilty past. So overall it doesn't resonate on the same level as Buffy.

And Dollhouse... well, I enjoyed most of the episodes... I loved Topher and DeWitt and their dynamic. Most of the dolls were pretty good, but Eliza as Echo was underwhelming and that made it hard to really love. Eh.

Edited for grammar fail.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Hee. There's a smattering of people, as you can see from the poll numbers above, who love Firefly. But they were clearly in the minority - or the series wouldn't have been cancelled and we'd have a movie franchise. Star Trek, it's not. Or Star Wars for that matter. Star Wars is actually a better comparison - since Lucas melded sci-fi and the Western genre in that series.
But Lucas unlike Whedon thought more about the mythology and world. Whedon sort of figured he'd make it up as he went along - which does not work in sci-fi. Horror and gothic fantasy, yes, sci-fi, not so much.

Actually read the post directly above yours. You two should chat. Gingerwall meet embers_log. But you might want to skip the ones below...they really did not like Firefly and hated Dollhouse.

I love Buffy more than Firefly overall, I'm just not waxing as poetic, because that seems to be the general consensus (not the case with Firefly apparently - I didn't expect that.)

My flist is generally speaking lacking in enthusiasm over Firefly. You should have seen the boards at the time it aired. They did not like it. Actually that is an understatement. People were furious at Whedon for leaving Buffy and Angel to work on Firefly and held Firefly up to impossible expectations. Keep in mind many Whedon fans are insane sci-fi geeks, and sci-fi geeks, particularly the insane anal retentive ones, tend to be generally speaking...a bit...nit-picky. And Whedon isn't great at details. (Honestly I don't think he bothers with them, the man is a bloody gardener, no architectural skills whatsoever). You can get away with camp and skipping over fine details in horror/fantasy genre, not so much science fiction, particularly in 2003 when everyone has watched really good sci-fi, and if you decide to meld it with Westerns (not a popular genre with a lot of fans to begin with) and infuse it with a 1800s Southern United States Libertarian Mentality (Whedon based Firefly on The Killer Angels, a story about the Confederate Army that he'd become obsessed with) which frankly offended a lot of people, not to mention alienated the European audience completely - bad idea, Whedon shows up until Firefly sold very well overseas. Then, to add insult to injury, use Chinese but forget to add any Asians. Plus..Inara the Companion. Sigh. Poor Fox, they kept asking Whedon and Minear what they were doing and Whedon couldn't tell them. It was a disaster in the making.

But, I think, if Fox had been patient, and less worried about ratings, and the series was less expensive...it might have gotten better as it went. Hard to tell. Scripts that got leaked to the net after it ended along with a rather fascinating interview with Minear about a script slanted for late Season 1, around episode 17, that was never filmed...sort of alienated all fans except for die-hards. (It involved Inara's gang rape by the Reavers and Mal's rescue of her...you can sort of see why fans would hate that with the fire of five thousand suns.)

Anyhow, I do agree with you on Objects in Space that was a brilliant episode, and there were a few good one's in there. But? I also LOVE Westerns and find quirky shows interesting, and not the least bit nit-picky about sci-fi. ;-)

And Dollhouse... well, I enjoyed most of the episodes... I loved Topher and DeWitt and their dynamic. Most of the dolls were pretty good, but Eliza as Echo was underwhelming and that made it hard to really love. Eh.

Had more or less the same reaction to it. It was okay. I didn't feel the need to buy the DVDs. Or re-watch. And, unfortunately or fortunately my flist's hatred of the series sort of influenced my perspective. (Read the comments below and above to see what I'm talking about and to be honest those comments are actually pretty nice in comparison to the posts that I'd read when it aired). I think if they'd hired or had a better actress than Dusku to play the lead or better yet, had a guy play that role, such as James Marsters, it may have worked better for me - I honestly don't know. I do know that Dusku didn't work. She was the weak link in that series.

Topher and DeWitt and Acker were rather brilliant though, and it was almost worth watching for their performances along.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

The Buffy and Angel ranking really depends for me on the day I've been having, I switch between them all the time. (Mostly my take is that BTVS is the better show, but there are times where I connect deeper with AtS, and it definitely inspired more fanfic from me.)

Also I love Astonishing X-Men as much as both of them, but that wasn't what you asked.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Also I love Astonishing X-Men as much as both of them, but that wasn't what you asked.

No, different medium. Was trying to keep them separate. Also, Astonishing had a very strong editorial presence that was lacking from everything else Whedon has done, with the possible exception of the first three seasons of Buffy.

The Buffy and Angel ranking really depends for me on the day I've been having, I switch between them all the time. (Mostly my take is that BTVS is the better show, but there are times where I connect deeper with AtS, and it definitely inspired more fanfic from me.)

Interesting. I pegged you Angel than Buffy for some reason...I think because you appear to like the Angel characters better than the Buffy one's?

I've noticed most people, not all, seem to gravitate towards the series whose characters worked best, resonated the most for them. ie: if you were a fan of Connor, Cordelia, Angel, Wes vs. Spike, Dawn, Buffy, Willow...I'm guessing Angel fan? But I'm just guessing here. I know some people gravitated towards plot or theme or narrative over characters - which is odd to me, but I can sort of understand it - a more Doylist as opposed to Watsonian perspective, I think?

[oursin.livejournal.com]

Never saw any of Dollhouse (not sure it ever reached UK terrestrial TV and what I'd heard didn't make me feel like shelling out for a boxset). The thing with Angel was that it was very uneven - on the latest rewatch I was really aware of how long it took to hit its stride, one might almost say not until Season 2 - and I really dislike Season 4. It picked up massively in Season 5 and then I thought blew the ending, though presumably that was mostly about show being terminated without renewal.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Dollhouse has odd responses. People either were completely turned off by it, or they loved it.

I don't know if you'd like it or not. The second season doesn't make a lot of sense, it's too rushed.

Hard to know.

[shapinglight]

I've never managed to get through all the episodes of Firefly. The world building was plain ridiculous as shipperx points out, and I don't like Nathan Fillion.

I quite enjoyed season one of Dollhouse despite the squicky premise, but season 2 was shockingly bad. The Buffy comics should have taught me, I suppose, but I really didn't think Whedon could produce anything that bad.

I doubt I'll bother going to see the Avengers, but I might watch it on DVD some day. But then I said the same about Serenity and I've never managed to watch that.

I may well be alone in the fandom in not rating Doctor Horrible either.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

No, you're not alone regarding Doctor Horrible. I know other people who don't like it. ;-)

I quite enjoyed season one of Dollhouse despite the squicky premise, but season 2 was shockingly bad. The Buffy comics should have taught me, I suppose, but I really didn't think Whedon could produce anything that bad.

I think I inadvertently spoiled you on Dollhouse in my attempt to explain the Buffy comics Twilight arc. Because Whedon basically did the same story twice. Badly. Really badly. I figured out what he was doing with Twilight...from Dollhouse, then got disappointed in both...because again, he did it badly. Whedon should not have been permitted to watch BSG and Caprica before he wrote the comics and Dollhouse. Ron Moore can do sci-fi robots, brain-washing, and loss of agency, Whedon does it and...things well get muddled.

Whedon just doesn't do sci-fi well. He doesn't have the patience for it.
OR the attention to small detail. Sci-fi requires a lot of details. And you have to be consistent. Whedon writes sci-fi sort of like a pulp comic book and makes George Lucas look like Issac Asmiov and Ursula Le Guinne in comparison.

Firefly? I'm of two minds about. If you don't think about it too hard...it feels like a campy version of Han Solos adventures in the Evil Empire as a smuggler. And..if you don't like Fillion, that series won't work for you, it's not as much an ensemble piece as people like to think.

[speakr2customrs.livejournal.com]

Your guess seems to be pretty accurate.

I loved Buffy, liked Angel a great deal, thought Firefly was extremely poor (shipperx has voiced my opinion very accurately, although she missed the ludicrously immense thermal zone in a single system and the Chinese phrases cropping up all the time despite us never ever seeing an ethnic Chinese person), and I thought that Dollhouse was the vilest thing ever to disgrace television.

I wouldn't pay to watch any Whedon film (two words; Alien Resurrection) but I'll probably watch The Avengers when it comes on TV. I may well lose interest halfway through, though.

And the Buffy comic is the worst story ever to appear in print in the entire history of humanity; it makes even Left Behind look good (well, less awful) in comparison.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Well...a few things should be noted on the films.

*Avengers has Marvel, Robert Downey Jr, Mark Ruffalo, Jeremy Renner, Samuel L Jackson all holding Whedon's strings. In short he's got people with bigger egos and much more talent on top of him. Then again, the trailer reminds me a bit too much of a Michael Bay Transformer's Flick for its own good.

* Cabin in the Woods has Drew Goddard directing and co-writing...you remember Drew? He's the guy who worked on Lost, is JJ Abrhams current scribe, and worked on some decent Buffy episodes. OTOH...he also wrote and directed the unwatchable Cloverfield.

* Much Ado...is written by Shakespeare...so it's just Whedon's direction and the actors you have to concern yourself with.

And the Buffy comic is the worst story ever to appear in print in the entire history of humanity; it makes even Left Behind look good (well, less awful) in comparison.

Haven't read Left Behind...so can't comment. But I will go on record and state that I think Twilight may actually be worse...then again I admittedly couldn't make it past the first fifty pages.;-)

[spikereader.livejournal.com]

I haven't filled out the poll as Buffy is the only series I've ever watched. I tried a couple of episodes of Angel, but couldn't get into it (not even S5 with Spike), and haven't seen any of the other two.

No interest in the comics (not a format I enjoy) or the films. It's obviously all about the Buffy for me. :)

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

You can still fill out the poll and ignore the other options. ;)

Have you tried Firefly? Not sure I'd recommend Dollhouse...depends on how you feel about the zombie motif and well sexual violence - if either bother you, best to avoid.

[aycheb.livejournal.com]

I like Buffy best. I don't usually read or watch for character (for writers or actors but not characters so much) but she and Sarah Connor are my exceptions that prove the rule. Actually, to be more specific it's post S5 Buffy I watch for. The original Buffy came from horror movies, the blonde in the alley who died a hero. My Buffy came from the musical, life's-not-a-song Buffy, Buffy came back wrong and stayed that way. Which makes sense, I like the idea of horror movies more than the reality but musicals are in my blood.

Firefly has a warmth to it, it's a show a lot of love went into but its a Western and its hard for Europeans to feel the resonances of that genre. it's not our history. Dollhouse isn't as lovingly crafted but I like the imagery and ideas and where they're good they speak to me.

Angel, meh. It's a boy story how I used to imagine comic books would be before I read any (and some still are).

Other stuff, I think the third book of AXM is the best of them but still prefer the BtVS book at least when Whedon writes it himself. Then I can be with my Buffy again.

[embers-log.livejournal.com]

You don't mention 'Doctor Horrible' but if musicals are in your blood I would think that you would love it (and the musical commentary):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apEZpYnN_1g

[londonkds.livejournal.com]

I think Whedon's X-Men comics are among my favourite work of his now. Probably because the fact that he didn't own the characters meant that he wasn't allowed to do his post-2003 thing of utterly destroying them because he couldn't think of any way to develop them. (I have a strong suspicion that Brand survived because somebody else in Marvel decided that she was a promising character and shouldn't be killed off.) Also, his writing of Emma Frost makes it clear that he can write grown-up sexually-active women without vilifying them, but just doesn't usually want to.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

For me it was a tie between Doctor Horrible (which is an excellent critique of the superhero genre and protagonist privilege...it really plays with the audience's perceptions) and Astonishing X-men. I agree, when provided with an editor, such as Marvel, or a strong network presence such as WB or even Fox, Whedon is forced to reign it in. I think Whedon is a writer, with the possible exception of Doctor Horrible, requires a strong editorial vision.

[rose-griffes.livejournal.com]

I put Angel ahead of Buffy but I really can't say why. I think it resonated more because it reflected that whole post-high school "Now what do I do? I'm supposed to be a grown-up!" feeling that still happens to me even now.

Plus I love Wesley's arc on ATS, and then Faith had some amazing stuff and... yeah. So while I wouldn't necessarily argue that Angel is the better series, it's still my favorite.

I'm rather glad I didn't discover online fandom until both shows were off the air, though. Heh.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Depends on which part of the fandom you got into. Angel's Soul Board actually would have agreed with you as would several people on ATPO. And quite a few on whedonesque.

It depends...I think on what resonates. I've tried to pinpoint why certain people loved Angel and why others really didn't, and I'm at a loss.

Sometimes..it's really no different than saying I like Grapefruit juice over OJ or vice versa.

[flameraven.livejournal.com]

I'm clearly in the minority here, but I like Dollhouse the best. It took one or two single ideas and explored them pretty well for being squished into two seasons instead of three. I'm intrigued by all the characters, I think there's some really interesting moral ambiguities and complexities, and I was pretty impressed by the actors overall, and really liked the characters, even if most of them are terrible people. It had a lot of twists that genuinely surprised me, and, while a lot of them were painful, I didn't feel like they existed ONLY to torture the characters, something I think is very prevalent in later seasons of Buffy/Angel and which annoys me to no end.

Firefly was the first Whedon thing I saw, and I enjoy it. I think it's unfortunately too short to get a good feel of the series as a whole, but the characters were fun and I liked the space western theme. In terms of logical world building, no, it doesn't really make sense, but I like the mash-up of genres and it fits the general "adventure" atmosphere. I wish the series had continued long enough to get into the meat of its plot, but as it is it's a fun series and one that has enough stand-alone episodes I rewatch it pretty frequently.

Buffy/Angel... I think my experience was just all wrong for this one. I didn't watch it as a teenager, so characters intended to appeal to teenagers (lookin' at you, Xander) I mostly find annoying. I have very little familiarity with horror tropes, so it's hard for me to appreciate the deconstruction of them, and I came into the series spoiled for nearly every major plot point, although I'm not sure how I could have avoided spoilers when the show is 15 years old. I think overall it just feels too teen sitcom for me to really get into it? I don't know. It just doesn't click for me. It's not a bad show, I like reading analyses of it, I'm just not all that emotionally invested in any of the characters or their situations.

Angel... Angel was fine for the first two seasons. My frustration grew in S3 and I flat-out refuse to deal with S4. I might eventually be convinced to watch S5, but in general I think pretty much anyone is more interesting than Angel as a character, and as I know most of them are missing by S5, I don't have much incentive to watch more.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I think my experience was just all wrong for this one. I didn't watch it as a teenager, so characters intended to appeal to teenagers (lookin' at you, Xander) I mostly find annoying.


Eh. You know that 95% of the Buffy fandom on my flist is well over the age of 30 right? And most of us did not watch the series as teenagers.
There's a woman on my flist, a huge Xander fan, well-read, has a journalism degree, loves Community, and is over the age of 40. Very bright lady. Best not to generalize.

The comments above demonstrate that as well. They pretty much run the gamut. In particular read the comments regarding Dollhouse and Firefly - which demonstrate once again that old adage..."You're Friends Aren't Watching the Same TV Show You Are and That's Okay" - (they just aren't focusing on the same things).

[jaymi-leaf.livejournal.com]

Heh, turns out my views are with the majority on all things.

Buffy is and will probably always be my favourite TV series. It has Buffy (the character) in it and she rules my heart. And some of the other characters are pretty great too (Spike, Dawn, Tara probably my next favourites). Plus there is action, comedy, musicals, silence, grief, sadness, depression and love.

Angel comes in second. It's a little too rough in places and the demolition of Cordelia (and the deification of Fred) is hard for me to overcome, but still it has a lot of good things going for it and I love the way it explore's Angel's questionable morals. Plus, Tragedy with a capital T.

Firefly is third but a lot further below the first two. Objects in Space is a great episode, I love it, but for the most part I couldn't get into the characters of Firefly. If it had run for longer and more things had been developed then maybe, but as it is I struggle to find one to connect to. I think Zoe is awesome but we don't get enough of her.

Dollhouse... I didn't hate it, it has a few good episodes and some good acting performances, but mostly it's just messy. Confused message, confused purpose... I would like to re-watch it some time (I've seen the series twice, first watch and then when watching it with someone else soon after) I've got the DVDs but never quite got around to re-watching again. It doesn't have the usual Whedon humour, which wouldn't be a problem given the subject matter if they played the subject matter more seriously, instead it just feels like a Whedon show too afraid to make jokes. There are some interesting thoughts in there but it never really decides what it wants to be. You could definitely tell that Joss was confused himself about the concept and wasn't into it like he was Buffy and Firefly (he wasn't really into Angel either but Greenwalt/Minear managed to make that work). And I think the fact that Whedon involved his brother and sis-in-law in making the show rubs me the wrong way, especially considering they wrote some of the show's worst episodes.

For non-TV work I went for Dr Horrible, but I'm not as enamoured with it as a lot of people seem to be. It's fun in places and I like some of the songs. It also has some unfunny dialogue and some over-long scenes. The only other thing on the non-TV list that I've seen are the Buffy comics and I'm kinda waiting to see how that turns out at the moment before I can judge...

I'll see all three of Whedon's upcoming works though.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Agree with a lot of the things you've said here. We appear to be watching the same series or at the very least from the same angles.

Dollhouse... I didn't hate it, it has a few good episodes and some good acting performances, but mostly it's just messy. Confused message, confused purpose... I would like to re-watch it some time (I've seen the series twice, first watch and then when watching it with someone else soon after) I've got the DVDs but never quite got around to re-watching again. It doesn't have the usual Whedon humour, which wouldn't be a problem given the subject matter if they played the subject matter more seriously, instead it just feels like a Whedon show too afraid to make jokes. There are some interesting thoughts in there but it never really decides what it wants to be. You could definitely tell that Joss was confused himself about the concept and wasn't into it like he was Buffy and Firefly (he wasn't really into Angel either but Greenwalt/Minear managed to make that work). And I think the fact that Whedon involved his brother and sis-in-law in making the show rubs me the wrong way, especially considering they wrote some of the show's worst episodes.

Yes. This. Exactly. Thank you. Of all the comments regarding Dollhouse this comes closest to how I viewed it and felt about the series. Although I don't own the DVDs. And am uncertain if I want to re-watch. Part of me does...because there are some good things buried in there. It felt largely uneven. And I was admittedly influenced by the online reaction to it - which was admittedly negative - that series pushed a lot of fans buttons.

I think Dr. Horrible works better if you are familiar with the super-hero genre/trope that Whedon is critiquing.

[jgracio.livejournal.com]

Firefly certainly has issues, and when I first heard about it, the whole thing seemed dumb to me.

But after watching a couple of episodes, and forcing myself to disregard the Confederacy angle, and also ignore the nitpicky side of my brain, the side that wonders about scifi details, or where are all the Asians, I found Firefly awesome.

But in truth, there's a pretty good chance I prefer Firefly because it's short, and never had the chance to go bad.

On the other side of the coin, Dollhouse. Saw the first few episodes, and it was enough. The concept repulsed me, especially when it became clear that for the most part only the employees had personalities, and the Dolls where pretty much blanks.