(no subject)

[shadowkat]

1. Well, I made need to find a moment sometime within the next two weekends to see Whedon's Avengers...haven't seen any reviews outside of my flist, which loves it of course. But they also loved Cabin in the Woods...and we all know how well that went down. Also it should be noted that since I rarely see movies in the movie theater - and prefer them on netflix, because movie theaters are a) expensive, b) annoying, I tend to be rather picky. And...there's two types of superhero movies...the popcorn brand - a la Avengers, and the noir pulp literary brand a la Batman.

Keep in mind? I fell in love with Frank Miller and Timothy Sale's Batman. I find Marvel's Avengers comics sort of silly. Always did. I'm a noir girl. Although I will watch Robert Downey Jr do just about anything and he is a marvel as Tony Stark, plus I'm a huge fan of Samuel L Jackson.

Yes, I realize what I said above contradicts my last five posts. I don't pretend to be consistent in my pop culture tastes, just wonky.

2. Still reading 50 Shades Darker - book two in the trilogy. By the way, book one was 528 pages. Book two is 328. It's an intriguing read. That said I won't rec it to people. I can't imagine the majority of my flist liking this book. Honestly? I think you guys might hate it. Unless of course you like Nauti's Crave. There's no rape - but the male hero is very controlling and possessive and could push some buttons. The men on my flist would HATE this book. So for that matter would anyone who isn't heterosexual, seriously it is a heterosexual novel...too many times they make a joke out of the fact that everyone thinks Grey is gay because he doesn't appear to have a girlfriend until Ana. He's royally screwed up - borderline crazy. Unless you like Everybody's Human Fanfic Romances, Nauti's Crave and Unbridled_Burnett's Days of Forgotten Past...I think that's the name of it, Erotica (Heterosexual erotica), Alpha Males, and Mental illness...it's probably not your thing.

I'm frankly embarrassed to tell anyone I'm reading it. And very happy it's on e-book. The only people who know I'm reading this book - is the Momster, who is frankly sick of me talking about it and got her revenge tonight by talking about tennis politics, people who read my livejournal (you poor dear souls - you must be incredibly masochistic), and D at work (who I told in a weak moment). Well written, it's not. It's not badly written either. I've read worse. Actually so have you. Example: It's better than Twilight, Danielle Steele, Nora Roberts, Charlain Harris, and the Buffy comics. But doesn't hold a candle to JK Rowling or Stephen King in writing style.

But I find it compelling and cannot put the bloody thing down. It really hits my kinks regarding mental illness hard. A topic that fascinates me. As well as the whole...healing through love not pain or redeemption through love. Also I find the story unpredictable - this writer keeps surprising me, which is sort of hard to do in pulp fiction - actually it's hard to do period, unless the story is completely illogical, this one isn't. She's admittedly an undisciplined writer, and her editors could be a lot better. But, technically speaking? She's no better or worse a writer than Judith Krantz, Danielle Steel, Steig Larrson's translator, Anne Rice, James Patterson, Suzanne Collins, most fanfic I've read, Nautibitz, and various others. Also...I'm enjoying her subtle critique of rich philanthropists who adopt seriously abused and tortured kids and think all they have to do is give them a great education and everything money can provide. Uh. No. I'm enjoying this because I live in a neighborhood filled with people who do the same thing - they adopt these children who have been abused or from impoverished countries and hire nannies to take care of them. Give them great educations and sort of treat them like a prized plant or pooch. It's like they've gotten a kid from the ASPCA or a plant. I'm sorry children are not pets or plants. They aren't dogs or cats or orchids. They are human. The author's subtle take down of these well-to-do narcissistic parents is intriguing. I've never seen anyone do that in quite that way. She's also interesting in how she references all these classic gothic British novels - Tess, Rebecca, Jane Eyre...in different places. Makes me and apparently everyone else want to read them. Sales for Thomas Hardy's Tess have climbed big time since 50 Shades was published. You really can't fault a book that makes people want to read the classics. (It's ironic, considering the books were inspired by Twilight, but not inspiring folks to read Twilight - instead people are inspired to read Tess. LOL!) Speaking of Twilight - I know this was a Twilight fanfic, and I've admittedly not read all of Twilight, but it feels like the anti-Twilight. Ana Steel is one tough cookie. She doesn't let Grey abuse, beat, or control her.
She stands up to him - which is why he falls in love with her. She's not weak and not chilly.
Ana is an interesting heroine in that she's not the victimized little girl trope that you usually see or the woman who was tortured and survived, she's tough, but not a victim, not tortured, and she doesn't become hard or a weapon. She's a heroine that I can identify with.

Add to this...she's not that sexually experienced. Which I found believable. Not everyone is.
The weird societal assumption is that every 21 year old on the planet is not a virgin and has had a lot of sex. Uh no. Actually that's not true of anyone on the planet. People are weird.
They think for some reason that continues to perplex me that everyone has had the same experiences they have. No. Most people have had completely different experiences, polar opposite ones in fact. That's what makes life interesting. The problem lies in seeking out only those people who are like you. It makes you stupid. Stop doing that people. Diversity is the spice of life! Case in point - I'm willing to bet you money that I'm most likely the only one on my flist reading 50 Shades of Grey. (Okay maybe not money...how about my Buffy comics collection?)

I don't think you can possibly appreciate 50 Shades, unless you've read numerous romance novels of varying shapes and sizes (and no, not the classics referred to in Eugendies novel The Marriage Plot - he clearly hasn't read any romance novels since the early 1900s or ironically in 50 Shades.) The new variety is not necessarily well written and tends to be somewhat boilerplate. I was looking for something in all of them - went through about 30 until I found it in 50 Shades. Which is amusing to me. The other books frustrated me, because stupid heroine was so insipid and passive, 50 Shades, she's not - in fact, 50 Shades comments on the passive/submissive heroine and explains why this doesn't work. Clearly the writer of this book has read as many romance novels as I have and got as fed up as I did and ended up writing her own out of a fit of pique. I think that's why a lot of people write - I read on Kristin Kashore's site, she started writing because she couldn't find the story she wanted to read anywhere. It's why I write and tell stories. Because I can't find it. The problem with genre...is often it falls into boilerplate or formulae. Everybody thinks they have to do a, b, and c. They have to follow these set rules. And after a while, if you read enough of them, you get bored.

One bit or routine I'm sick and tired of...is the old, we won't have the characters discuss this and instead let them miscommunicate forever. I gave up on the Buffy comics because of this problem. Stupid writers, I want to say, let the two characters talk it out. We the audience do care if Xander lied to Buffy about Angel in Becoming and do want it referred to. We care that Giles killed Ben and Buffy doesn't know he did and would like that referred to. Discussion is actually more interesting than reading a boring fight scene or sex scene again.

I wanted to kill Jim Butcher for going for the fight scene over the discussion in his last novel Ghost Story. Felt the same way about Kim Harrison.

Say what you will about Hemingway, but the man understood the value of dialogue.

Okay off to read more.

Comments

[rahael.livejournal.com]

I thought Avengers was okay and enjoyable but it didn't set me on fire or anything. Definitely worth the price of the ticket I feel.

BUT - I loathe Frank Miller's Batman ....! And the saving grace for me re Avengers was that it was several universes away from that kind of superhero. I like Batman, I just don't like the politics that Miller wraps his version in, so much so I felt traumatised after I put the comic book down.

so you might not want to take my word for it.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Your review of Avengers - was the only one I trusted. Because you said - yes, it's fun, but not emotionally involving. Which makes sense. I think I may have burned myself out on the genre though...LOL!


BUT - I loathe Frank Miller's Batman ....! And the saving grace for me re Avengers was that it was several universes away from that kind of superhero. I like Batman, I just don't like the politics that Miller wraps his version in, so much so I felt traumatised after I put the comic book down.

I can't imagine you liking Miller. Or Alan Moore for that matter. Both wrote subversively nihilistic and gritty takes on the super=hero genre in the 1980s. Extremely violent.

I think they were commenting on Thatcher and Regan at the time. Blade Runner also commented on it. I wonder sometimes if these stories work outside of the 1980s context? Because they are talking about the fear of Nuclear War (we were terrified of it, thought this was the worst thing EVER and convinced it would happen any day), the Cold War, The Evil Soviet Union, Evil Communism (another thing we were insanely terrified of), and the whole Thatcher/Regan take on heroism. I felt at the time - that they were critical of these things - at least Moore seemed to be.

I haven't read them in 20 years though...

And I tend to be oblivious to the political messages in things, or I just ignore them, can't decide which - zeroing in on the psychological and emotional bits more.

I remember being interested in Moore and Miller's innovative (at the time - this was the 1980s) anti-vigilante take - or the questioning of the whole concept of superhero. Very post-modern. Are you really a hero - is Batman really a hero? Or just an insane vigilante? Where's the line?

[rahael.livejournal.com]

I like Alan Moore a lot until we get to the bits where very young women are forced to have sex with older men. But I didn't like all the mutilation and gore in From Hell either. That genre "true crime", like horror is the the one I know I won't enjoy at all. But the wittier, funnier creative sides of Moore I enjoy a lot.

I got that Miller appeared to be critiquing Reagan, but I never thought he had a subversive take on it, which is what I'd been given to understand. My take on it is that Miller isn't anti-vigilante, he's pro-violence and has a view of human beings that seems to make him distrust democracy.

For Batman as an ambiguous figure, my favourite so far is "Arkham Asylum" which I thought was great.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Agree with you on Alan Moore. His fetish for older guys having sex with very young women...made it impossible for me to read League of Extraordinary Gentleman. Also made it difficult for me to deal with V for Vendetta - even if I thought the movie was quite interestingly shot.
(Also, I struggled with Watchmen. I know it is brilliant, but I can't say I enjoyed it.)

I remember loving Miller's comic when I was 20, but now...I have a feeling it would annoy me. Nolan's films are beginning to annoy me, while I adored them five years ago. So my views on this have clearly changed over time.

I have a friend who dated Miller (while he was married) so I know that he's a conservative libertarian (so is she, although less conservative than he is apparently). There's a definite Ayn Randian sensibility to Miller's work. (But then I also see a Randian sensibility to Firefly, so what do I know?)

And yes, Miller's pro-violence, which I admittedly have issues with as well. I'm frankly tired of the pro-violence message in movies and the media of late. That's not how you resolve problems. You negotiate, you compromise, you don't beat or torture the person.

Miller unfortunately is not alone in this. Is Avengers pro-violence? It appears to be from the trailers - but that may not be true?

[flake-sake.livejournal.com]

I saw Avengers. It had some good lines otherwise it was mainstream action bubblegum. It was one of the better mainstream superhero movies of the last years but in the end it's pretty standard (save for some Whedon type good dialogue).

About Fifty Shades of Grey. I've read summaries and some excerpts now(because I too find it fascinating that there's a fanfic gone mainstream)and while the writing could be improved, it seems to be a gazillion times better than Twilight itself.

It's fanfic and I think (some weaknesses and horrible expressions not withstanding) it's fanfic I would enjoy. One of the things that was a huge turnoff in Twilight for me seems to remain though. I intensely dislike wealth fantasies. It bores me to death, who gets which car or what private jet who owns.

The bit I enjoy is the mild kink and the intense character relationship. This is something that stems directly from the female oriented writing in fanfic, that was able to evolve on the internet, outside of the mainstream male oriented porn industry. I find it kind of funny to see so many mainstream reviewers discover this sort of writing like it's totally new. I admit,it was also a total revelation for me, when I was 15 and started to read Japanese Doujinji and later erotic fanfic but now it is old news. I've been wondering for years why so much money is left lying on the streets by publishers.

I don't think fifty shades is for me. Too much wealth fantasy and (like you say)heteronormativity, but I love the idea that this kind of intensity is making it into the mainstream. It might be opening the floodgates for a lot of good fanfic going pro.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I intensely dislike wealth fantasies. It bores me to death, who gets which car or what private jet who owns.

The wealth fantasy is dealt with oddly here. The heroine, Ana, struggles with it. That's one of her problems with his lifestyle. She loves having the money suddenly to do things, but hates it at the same time.

This may by and large be a American/UK cultural thing? I don't know. I know
the US and Britain are obsessed with wealth and class structure is based largely on wealth and material acquisition. Downton Abbey is an example.
As is many of the US films. The US and the UK romance genre has wealth at its center core as well. JK Rowlings Harry Potter books talk about the topic too. It's subtle but there - Potter is extremely wealthy, Ron Weasely is not.
You also see it in Buffy - where she can't afford anything suddenly or Cordy who has to work in order to afford a dress for Prom, when she had originally been able to afford whatever she wanted.

Every week - my office mates and I pay two dollars in the hopes of winning the lottery and becoming instant "millionaires". And a lot of the envy you see in interviews on 50 Shades - is about EL James who has become an instant millionaire writing this book.

What's interesting in 50 Shades is the "wealth" isolates Christian Grey in a sort of fortress or castle. And he came from dirt poor roots - poverty. Ana
has massive student loans and worked her way through school. Christian's adoptive parents had an abundance of wealth and adopted kids, but seem incapable of showing unconditional love, while Ana's who are not wealthy and middle-class, are. She's critical of it.

It may be a cultural thing? Wealth is a big deal in the US. I don't know if it is elsewhere. But 50 Shades comments on two wars going on right now, gender and wealth.

I don't think fifty shades is for me. Too much wealth fantasy and (like you say)heteronormativity,

You'd hate 50 Shades. Trust me. It would push your buttons. The characters would annoy you - very much the "heterosexual" ideal. You are correct by the way - 90% of the romance genre is heteronormativity and hunky guy/slight girl. I didn't think you were, but having read 30 of these things now in various areas of the genre, yup, pretty much.

That said? 50 Shades does do some subversive things - which is due in part to its fanfic origins. Fanfic writers often do these things. The intense character relationship is one of them. As is the mild kink...and the intense examination of all the pros and cons of the BDSM world. Plus the playing with the vampire metaphor. There are no literal vampires in this novel, just metaphorical ones.


I love the idea that this kind of intensity is making it into the mainstream. It might be opening the floodgates for a lot of good fanfic going pro.

Oh yes. It has changed the publishing industry. The reaction of literary/non-fanfic mainstream writers to it is hilarious. They hate this book and what it represents.

James self-published the book. It got picked up by a small company out in Australia as an e-book. Took off in e-publishing, and Vintage picked it up, then took off again. So we have a) a fanfic, b) self-published or published outside of the corporate or mainstream publishing world, and c) with the words "fuck", "crap", "shit" and kinky sex throughout. In case you haven't noticed the mainstream publishing world is incredibly prudish and has problems with curse words as does the media. James has no problem whatsoever using the word fuck. It's refreshing. LOL!

[flake-sake.livejournal.com]

I think wealth is a big deal everywhere and I guess when you are faced with making debts to buy a flat (like I am currently)everybody would like to have money.

Thing is that I more and more perceive this dream of wealth that is sold by the media as an instrument of oppression. And it's not that a character is materialistic (take Lizzy Bennet, she is highly materialistic, it's what comes with being poor) it's the flair of a story. How much time is spent on describing the wealth, is it part of the idealized fantasy that there is lots of money, etc.

I don't mind the general concept, I mind the dwelling. Yes Harry Potter is stinking rich but we do not spend 30 pages watching him make poor Ginny expensive presents. I'm almost certain there is fanfic like that, because greed is a human drive like any other, but it is not something I would be interested in reading.

It has changed the publishing industry. The reaction of literary/non-fanfic mainstream writers to it is hilarious.

This is what I really love about those books. They set an example. There is a whole market that is completely ignored by mainstream publishing and now it is carving out its own place.

I think it also gives many writers hope not to try to cater to the industry but to their own passions and trust that there are people out there who share them. I for one begrudge her not a penny.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Thing is that I more and more perceive this dream of wealth that is sold by the media as an instrument of oppression. And it's not that a character is materialistic (take Lizzy Bennet, she is highly materialistic, it's what comes with being poor) it's the flair of a story. How much time is spent on describing the wealth, is it part of the idealized fantasy that there is lots of money, etc.

Oddly, so does EL James or she appears to. Her take on wealth is oddly reminiscent of Austen and Hardy, as opposed to mainstream romance novelists such as Roberts, McNaught, and Rice.

Grey gives Anastasia an Audi 3 for graduation. We find out later - it's the car he gives to all his submissives. She adores her beaten up, Beetle, and throws the car back in his face. They fight over it. She finally caves - it's safer. The emphasis on the expensive cars is safety. They go car shopping again - and he doesn't give her a choice, she's a bit pissed, but at least he's given in to go with a SAAB not an Audi, but again it has to be the most "safe" care imaginable.

He hires a personal shopper to get her a wardrobe. She bulks. And despairs. Yes, beautiful clothes...but also feels very controlling.
In the book he's adopted by a well-to-do family who uses wealth to control...

It's emphasized constantly in the novel. And the author continuously refers to Daphne Du Maurier's Rebecca, and Hardy's Tess as well as Lizzie Bennette and Jane Eyre - all novels that discuss wealth as a means of oppression of control.

The hero's father's charity is called Coping Together - crack mothers and sons coping - with little regard to his adoptive son's trauma. He holds a big charity ball. And treats money like candy during it - everyone puts their name on a hundred dollar bill and puts it in a pot.
They play games. Auction off dances, and expensive resorts and spa weekends. The dinner is 10 course affair with wines etc. So we have a charity that donates to the poverty stricken - with opulent prizes.
There's a very dry satirical wit entangled within that. And oh? During this? The hero takes the heroine (who has been wearing beebee balls (vaginal sex toy balls) until she has to remove them) to his childhood room, where he sensually spanks her and they have sex. The room is draped in white, with kick-boxing trophies, pop culture film posters such as the Matrix, and Mariners pennants...with photos of all the places around the world he's been. The heroine hasn't left the continental US.

It's almost as if James is making fun of her own fantasy, critiquing it. Something you never see in this genre. They NEVER do that. Usually the heroine loves the fact he bought her clothes, loves the ball, and is all "Cinderella" about it. But here? Not really. She's uncomfortable and he's uncomfortable. It's odd.



This is what I really love about those books. They set an example. There is a whole market that is completely ignored by mainstream publishing and now it is carving out its own place.

I was listening to a conversation while waiting for the subway this morning - and a woman told her boyfriend, who had just downloaded the first book. That she'd never read a book like this before. (Most people haven't - they aren't like me - who is insanely curious about cultural stuff and a bit of culture junkie.) And it gives the work legitimacy. Especially female fanfiction - most fanfiction is written by women.

James states in an interview her favorite authors, and the interviewer stupidly inquires.."All women? Why?" And James looks at the interviewer oddly..."because I like a good love story." James isn't a pretty woman, thin, perfect, like you see on all these shows or like Meyer...she looks like me.

I think it also gives many writers hope not to try to cater to the industry but to their own passions and trust that there are people out there who share them. I for one begrudge her not a penny.

This! Exactly. It's what I love most about this. It gives us freedom.
Frak the publishing industry and it's corporate control. We can write from our hearts and there are people who will love it.

[flake-sake.livejournal.com]

Still it seems to me that the description of wealth gets too much room (for my taste). In that respect very similar to Twilight, where Bella also gets cars and shit all the time. Of course she complains (she complains about everything), but it's still depicted as that great thing.

So much time on discussing cars, it just bores me. But like I said, this is personal taste. Wish fulfilment is a huge thing in fanfic and greed fulfilment is just something I don't care to read.

I'm glad it is presented with self irony but it's still something that makes me skip pages.

That she'd never read a book like this before.

It's fanfic hitting the mainstream and that was sooo overdue. I really like that.

This! Exactly. It's what I love most about this. It gives us freedom.
Frak the publishing industry and it's corporate control. We can write from our hearts and there are people who will love it.


I hope it'll inspire a lot of fanfic writers to at least try. I'm so sick of those leech industries and I really love the possibilities the net opens up here.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

So much time on discussing cars, it just bores me. But like I said, this is personal taste. Wish fulfilment is a huge thing in fanfic and greed fulfilment is just something I don't care to read.

I have to admit it annoyed me too. I don't drive or own a car and could care less. And I've no idea what a Saab or an Audi looks like. So I just sort of skimmed over. She doesn't discuss it that much.

The book spends more time discussing BDSM and psychology than anything else. The writer is obviously fascinated with psychology. She's pyscho-analyzing these character tropes - which is a fanfic thing to do. Really psycho-analyzing. The main character goes to a pyschologist and brings the heroine with him, and they discuss his issues. I was blown away. This is NEVER done in romance novels.

On Twilight? I couldn't make it past the first 50 pages, so have no idea how close this is to that story. It is better written than Twilight in my opinion. Because again, couldn't read Twilight.
I might rent the movies - to see how similar the two stories are - although considering I can't stand the Twilight trailer...this probably won't work either. Which is why my reaction to 50 Shades is so surprising...I mean, it's a fanfic based on a story that I found unreadable and disliked intensely.

Says a lot about fanfic...doesn't it?

[flake-sake.livejournal.com]

On Twilight? I couldn't make it past the first 50 pages, so have no idea how close this is to that story. It is better written than Twilight in my opinion. Because again, couldn't read Twilight.
I might rent the movies - to see how similar the two stories are - although considering I can't stand the Twilight trailer...this probably won't work either. Which is why my reaction to 50 Shades is so surprising...I mean, it's a fanfic based on a story that I found unreadable and disliked intensely.

Don't. Believe me, even from the excerpts I've read I can tell it is written a mile better than Twilight (proper grammar, larger vocabulary, I think that I noticed the lack of those things in Twilight as a non native speaker is pretty telling in itself).

Also the heroine seems to be so much more bearable than Bella.

The cool thing about fanfic is that it sometimes is better than the base material. With Buffy it's usually some aspect that is worked on and given much more room than in the show.

This happened to me with Naomi Novic's Merlin fanfic. It's so much better than the source material. Even though it is mostly just backdrop for the porn, the politics,battle tactics and evolving personal dynamics are so much better in her stories than on the show.

[flake-sake.livejournal.com]

Also wanted to ask you, if you have read Shards of Honor by McMaster-Bujold?

I think you would really enjoy it. I thought it was brilliant romance wise and very interesting with the gender thingies.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I read a book called Cordelia's Honor - which I think combined two books.
One of those might have been Shards of Honor?

Was it the Cordelia and Major Vorskojikan romance? The parents of Miles?
Because I did love that book. It was fantastic. Very twisty and complex.
50 Shades reminds me a little of that dynamic. (without the sci-fi and the politics of course.)

[flake-sake.livejournal.com]

Yes, those are the ones I meant. :)
I really loved it too, because the dynamic was so brilliant. You could really feel that those two work despite their very different upbringings.

It's two fully formed personalities that are retained throughout the story and rub off each other brilliantly.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Agreed.

It remains one of my favorite books and favorite pairings. Loved it.

[flameraven.livejournal.com]

It's been interesting for me to get a closer look at 'Fifty Shades of Grey' through your posts. All I'd heard before was 'originally Twilight fanfic about BDSM' and wasn't really interested. I'm still not interested, as I have never read a romance novel and really, prefer romance to stay on the edges of stories I read, but it's good to know it's not quite as terrible a book as it sounds? Or that at least it's subverting or avoiding the cliches of the genre in an interesting way.

Haven't seen Avengers yet. I'm interested to see how it goes, although I think Iron Man and the Hulk are the only characters I've seen the individual movies for. I do enjoy silly superhero cheese, though. While I can enjoy darker, more serious takes on superheros... I feel like it's inherently a pretty silly genre and I appreciate movies that are aware of that. And I'm not really expecting much more than lighthearted action fluff with explosions, so if that's all it is at least I won't be disappointed.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I'm still not interested, as I have never read a romance novel and really, prefer romance to stay on the edges of stories I read, but it's good to know it's not quite as terrible a book as it sounds? Or that at least it's subverting or avoiding the cliches of the genre in an interesting way.

No, you'd hate 50 Shades because the story really is a love story, the central focus is the love story. And how the two people navigate their inter-personal issues.

I get where you are coming from though - there was a time - between the ages of 25-35, possibly longer, where I despised romance novels and read everything else. And I'll probably hit that point again sooner than later. The romance genre by and large is not that good. I'm not kidding when I state that 50 Shades, writing technique wise, is somewhat typical of it. Literary this genre isn't. It's quite pulpy. It's no surprise that EL James favorite writers are all female romance novelists - she writes like they do, better than some actually.

The fact that James is better than many of the romance novelists out there isn't all that surprising to me. This is the one genre that fanfic writers are actually a lot better than the published ones - oddly enough.

I'm finding the genre incredibly comforting right now - for whole host of reasons I won't bore you with. ;-)