(no subject)

[shadowkat]

Still making my way through A Dance with Dragons - and today, I was reminded of why it is a) important to not skim chapters, even if they appear to be filler conversations over a meal with two rather non-substantial characters that you could care less about, because key plot points will be revealed, and b) the plus side to reading things on the Kindle (outside of not having to carry a ten pound tome around with me) is it highlights key plot points - so you'll be sure to not miss them.

Case in point:



So, we're knee in Davos, the Onion Knight's point of view...Davos, for reasons I'll never understand, has once again decided to support Stannis claim for King, at great risk to himself. Personally, I agree with Sallah, go wander off with him and give up on Stannis. Unless of course he's afraid of Stannis...which is understandable. Stannis likes to burn people alive, bloody painful being burnt alive. So, going off to the Sister Isles to help Stannis - since it is far away from him and Melissandra, not to mention the bloody wall, may not be a bad idea. Also safer.

At any rate, knee deep in a rather dull and rambling conversation between Davos and the ruler of the Three Sisters, over a yummy seafood soup with thick black bread, out of nowhere, pops a bit of background information on Ned Stark and Jon Snow. Apparently Ned was at the isles back in the day, drumming up support for Barrathaon. With Jon Arryn's help, he escaped Aeon Tarragaryn's chopping block (only to be killed by Joffrey later, Ned, dear boy, you really don't have much luck with mad king's do you?) And is smuggled out of the isles and away from certain death by a fisherman and his daughter, leaving the daughter with a bag of silver and a baby, who she named Jon Snow.

Now if the Kindle hadn't highlighted this bit, I would have missed it - I was busy skimming, because frankly I could care less about Ned Stark's antics back in the day. But there it is.

Least we've forgotten who Jon Snow is, the next chapter is back in his point of view, right now he's overseeing the killing of Mance Ryder - who dies rather horribly - they put him in a wooden cage which they burn, before he can completely go up in flame, Jon decides to have his archers put Mance out of his misery, regardless of what Stannis thinks. But Jon, why not do that before he's put to the flame? Jon at least is feeling very guilty about all of this, or rather, guilty about sending Sam and Gilly off to safer climes, worrying that they've drowned or worse. (Not to worry, Jon, they are actually better off than everyone else is at the moment.)

Oh well, at least we now know for certain that Jon is Ned Stark's kid and not a Tarragaryn or Dragon. He's a wolf like the others. I can't help but think Martin put that bit of information in there - to stop the continuous pondering by the fandom regarding Jon Snow's birth. Or wild theories - such as Jon was Rhaeger's kid by Ned's sister, so the true heir to the throne and a King. Martin sort of killed that theory, didn't he? Bet the fandom was disappointed.



In other news...MRI scheduled on Sunday at 2pm. They asked if I was claustrophobic. I said a little but I'd been in the tube before. Oh so you've done this, they asked. Wait you said the tube? You've definitely done it. Although my mother and I keep arguing over it - she says I had a Cat-Scan, I say I've had an MRI. Personally I don't think it matters. They had all my info on file, so I'm in their system at any rate.

Also the epidermal/steroid shot appeared to work. No more sciatia, so far. Back still aches.
But better. I have hope.

Work is hurting my efforts to start writing creatively again. I'm too self-conscious.

It's colder now...the weather has shifted again. And rain is on the horizon. Lots of it.
Frequent downpours are predicted. Lovely. Hence the reason the MRI is scheduled for Sunday not Friday.

Comments

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

No, so far Davos is just doing a lot of talking. Nothing really note worthy. The book is rather boring at the moment, nothing new has happened, GRRM is basically filling in the gaps of Feast - I feel like I'm re-reading that book, which is annoying. Although I do agree - seeing Janos Slynt get killed was rather poetic justice. But Jon still has issues.

Like waving a red flag.

So very true. LOL! I really should know better.

Ironically, I would prefer it if Jon were the bastard son of Rhaegar and Stark's sister (whose name is apparently Lysanna - I'd forgotten, how people remember all these characters names is beyond me, do they have minds like rollerdecks?) Far more interesting from a character and plot stand-point, which is possibly why everyone thinks it is true. And possibly why I got the responses I got. The books are rather dull from a plot spec standpoint - you need something to get excited about.

But I see no clear evidence of it in the books - maybe a few hints here and there, but you can clearly argue it either way. And obviously fans have wasted oodles of time doing just that (not that I should talk, I wasted oodles of time arguing about Buffy with fans...sigh, internet + fandom, the ultimate time waster).

That doesn't mean it's not true of course. Or that GRRM isn't misleading people into thinking it is. I wouldn't put either past the writer - he's a former tv serial writer - they like to play with fans heads. Plant oodles of red-herrings, then go off and do something that makes no sense. The GoT TV writers, interestingly enough, to date have written around it, you can't tell from the tv series that Jon isn't Ned's kid. He certainly resembles Ned's kids and he's not blond. Also, they could change it, it's not like they haven't changed other far more important plot points, after all.

[sophist.livejournal.com]

What I like about Davos is that he's willing to speak truth to Stannis, even at great risk. Not just Stannis, either. You'll soon see.

I personally am convinced that R+L=J, as they say in Westeros. Some of the arguments get pretty obscure, but the core clues are very persuasive to me. And then, of course, there's the question of whether he's a bastard at all....

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Well it certainly works better from a thematic and story telling pov. Also characterwise. I was rather disappointed actually when I read that highlighted section. Good to know it could still turn out the other way, although from what I'm getting from the comments, no one knows for certain either way - outside of conjecture.

[sophist.livejournal.com]

More than conjecture and less than confirmation, is the way I'd put it. There are lots of clues pointing in that direction, though nothing is obvious and we all could just be fooled.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

That's sort of how I'm reading it. ie. You can argue it either way, which reminds me of Joss Whedon's writing too - I wonder if TV serial writers are taught to write this way? (GRRM started as a tv serial writer). Is there a class? Write ambiguously, so your fans can argue it either way, analyze it to death, obsess over it, make themselves and everyone around them nuts - then, finally, reveal or not as the mood hits you? There must be.

[sophist.livejournal.com]

I kind of like mysteries along the way, as long as they don't go overboard. I like puzzling them out (not that I did with R+L=J; I read it on line and realized how clueless I'd been). Of course, dragging it out for 5 books is extreme.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I read it on-line and realized how clueless I'd been

Yes, the internet. Although I don't think you are necessarily clueless. The only people who picked up on it as far as I can tell - either have read the books several times and a lot of meta or picked it up online. I mentioned the mystery about his heritage to my co-workers - who have read all five books and they looked at me blankly and said, what? No, he's obviously Ned Stark's kid. Of course they also think Catelynn is still alive and not undead...so there is that.

I like puzzling them out

Oh, I agree...I enjoy doing it too.

But the problem with GRRM's books is they are too bloody convoluted to begin with - we have over 20 pov's per book, and they aren't the same pov's - he likes to add new ones. New one's that are fairly obscure and don't even names. And he seems far more interested in providing the reader with little details like what it was like to eat seafood soup out of bread trencher on a cold night while listening to old war stories, or how you burn someone alive then actual plot. Which is fine - but this is over-kill. Reading Song of Ice and Fire at times feels like battling one's way through a bramble bush to get to a great garden. The man needs to learn how to prune.

Adding some convoluted puzzle about one of 100 different characters parental lineage...is sort of well like hiding a rose in a bramble bush, after a bit you think - it's just another rose, who cares! Think of the other puzzles the writer has thrown out there - only to drag them out for so bloody long that by the time you are told the resolution, you've either forgotten the puzzle/mystery or you don't care what the answer is.

* The assassination attempt on Bran. (We don't find out until the end of Storm of Swords, and by that time...I no longer cared and the writer had to explain it - because I think he forgot to put the clues in the first two books. They aren't in the tv series at all - so if they ever tell the viewers of the tv series, the viewers will think, "huh"." ) And that by the way - was a far more crucial puzzle than Jon Snow's parentage. But it becomes all rather anti-climatic.

* Who kills Joffrey. (which we find out in Storm, but it's not clear. I had to explain it to someone recently. It too is rather convoluted and anti-climatic.)


I can't really say I care that much who Jon Snow's parents are nor do I understand why it matters - at least from a plot perspective.

I suppose it would matter - from an ironic standpoint. Because it would be incredibly ironic. But since so many of the characters that actually would have cared, are either dead or soon to be dead (I don't see the Lannister's surviving, well except for Tyrion), the irony is bit on the anti-climatic side of the fence.

There is a nice parallel - both Dany and Jon's families have been slaughtered by Lannisters. So both have a beef with the Lannisters. But all the Lannisters will be dead by the time either finish their tasks. Or it gets revealed. That's the frustrating thing about these books - there's really very little sense of catharsis. Outside of a few things here and there. Also, when someone gets their "karmic" reward - you're sort of either rooting for them to be redeemed or you've forgotten about them or stopped caring. (I like the books or aspects of them, but I also find incredibly frustrating at times.)

My hunch is that GRRM's end-game is a Jon Snow/Dany.
(ie Jon Snow = Ice, and Dany = Fire, and they are the Song of Ice and Fire in the story - and it's their dual/parallel coming of age tales that are central in the book.) but I could be wrong about that. If that's the case - than yes, Jon Snow's parentage might make a difference, although I'm not sure how - since Dany has no problem marrying relatives. It's hardly taboo in that world. Nor would it make Jon any more King than it would Dany. So I honestly don't see why it matters from that standpoint. Also from Jon's pov - he's Ned's bastard.
If he became Rhaegar and Lysanna's kid - he'd still be a bastard, or a Snow. And his parents would still be dead, except he never knew them.
Everyone who did know them or cared - is also dead or soon to be dead, so again...why is this relevant?

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Sigh. I actually proofed this before I posted it. And it still is filled with typos. Only thing I appeared to do was add more to it. Other people edit and fix typos, I just add words.

[sophist.livejournal.com]

LOL on the typos. It's perfectly readable.

Completely agree on Martin's writing style. AFAIC, he does 2 things very well: epigrammatic phrases and dramatic scenes. He's also created a very believable, albeit cynical, view of the Middle Ages.

But I'm like you -- I got to the point of skimming through the boring parts. That's why I missed clues. Not until I looked stuff up on the net and read the books again did I realize that he'd buried so many clues. That's good in a way, but it's frustrating in your situation. Believe me, I sympathize.

MAJOR SPOILERS FOR NON-READERS BUT NO SPOILERS FOR SK

As for Jon's importance, I side with those who consider him the legitimate heir to the throne. I think it likely that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married. That's the only obvious way to explain why 3 members of the Kingsguard were at the the Tower of Joy and why they'd fight to the death.

I used to think that Jon and Dany made the obvious pairing, but now I've decided it's less clear. In Medieval literature, a "song" was basically a poem, usually an epic poem (The Song of Roland being the classic example). That means Martin doesn't have to end up with them together, he just has to tell their stories.

I don't know how it will end and I'm agnostic on the various theories. I'm confident, though, that Jon is the key to the way it ends.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

AFAIC, he does 2 things very well: epigrammatic phrases and dramatic scenes. He's also created a very believable, albeit cynical, view of the Middle Ages.

Agreed. I think this may be why I'm still reading him. Well that and the fact that I actually do find several of his key characters interesting and want to know what happens to them. Plus, he can be quite funny in places. A good sense of humor - always helps. You'd be surprised how many fantasy/horror/romance/mystery/genre writers lack a sense of humor. Or maybe not.

Not until I looked stuff up on the net and read the books again did I realize that he'd buried so many clues.

I realized it in book 3, when we find out that Joffrey hired the assassin to kill Bran. I thought - okay, wait, that came out of nowhere. So I went back to Game of Thrones and Clash of Kings, and sure enough the clues are buried in boring eating scenes. Ugh.

So I decided after that point to read it more closely. And yes, there are lots of clues buried in the books that Jon is the legitimate heir of Lysanna and Rhaegar - and it was a love match, which Robert Barrathon, who was smitten with Lysanna refused to accept and got Ned Stark's help - mainly because Rhaegar's father was insane. There's bits and pieces buried in Cersie's pov - I'm certain. But Cersei's pov is so grating that its easy to miss it, I began to skim again with Cersie. There's also bits and pieces buried within Ned Stark's point of view in book 1 (which I also skimmed), and in Catelynn as well as Jamie's pov's. Frankly I thought that was the plot twist you referring to in ADWD - the final reveal of Jon Snow's heritage.

But again...whether he's a legitimate heir or not - may not matter by the time we get there - because I'm willing to bet the pretender's die before we get there. Although Stannis may be a problem, except keep in mind Stannis doesn't consider Tarragyn's legitmate heirs and thinks he is. So he'll hardly step aside - actually he's more likely to feed Jon to the flames. (Another incidence of irony - they are feeding Kings to the flames to give Stannis power, and there's Jon....LOL!)

I don't know how it will end and I'm agnostic on the various theories. I'm confident, though, that Jon is the key to the way it ends.

Agreed. I'm fairly agnostic myself. The only things I'm certain of is that Jon Snow and Dany are the keys to the conclusion - this is their journey. She's as important as he is. He's the Direwolf Warg, and she's the Dragon Queen. And we're watching both become leaders, rulers, and do difficult things to become them. There's a definite parallel structure emerging between those two characters...so his heritage may be important in that regard. It's also important in how it portrays...a R&J romance destroying a kingdom.

[sophist.livejournal.com]

Yes, he has a great sense of humor. I forgot about that.

You were quicker than I was to realize the clues. I did get them eventually, but not on first read.

No, there's another plot twist coming at the end of ADWD. I promise not to spoil you.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I just hope no one else does...note how they spoiled me on Theon. I now know more than I wanted to.

Apparently not everyone is schooled in vague responses. We both served time on a non-spoiler board with spoilerphobes.