This, that and the other thing...Dance with Dragons and Defiance

[shadowkat]

1. Sci-fi Geek Co-worker is desperately trying to persuade me to watch the new Sy-fy series Defiance which he describes as being a lot like Firefly without the spaceship and Nathan Fillion. (And I'm guessing without Joss Whedon, Alan Tudyk, and Adam Baldwin which were basically the main reasons I watched Firefly, but why quibble?) In short he says it's part horse-opera and part sci-fi. (Co-worker is in his 60s, I feel the need to explain this in case of confusion. And yes, this is the same co-worker who skipped Storm of Swords in order to read Feast of Crows. Not to be confused with co-worker who talked me into giving Breaking Bad another try. I'm not certain these two co-workers have ever had a conversation.) At any rate.. I did DVR it. When and if I get around to it - which if he co-worker keeps pestering me, is going to be sooner than later. (I do question whether co-worker's taste sync well with mine - he's favorite shows after all are the cheesy Star Gates, Lost Girl, Warehouse 13, Eureka, Continnum, & Syfy's Being Human and he liked the Twilight book. OTOH he also liked Farscape and Buffy. BSG was too dark for him.)

2. Dance with Dragons update:



I'm about 20% in and admittedly skimming through a chunk of pointless description. You are wordy bastard, GRRM. I will give you that. One wonders if he is paid by the word?
He also likes to dump a lot of history on top of the reader, some of it seemingly nonsensical, I did read it - because he buries plot points in that history. One plot point - which is sort of dumped in there without any highlighting and off-the-cuff (so off the cuff that the Kindle didn't pick up on it) - is that Rhaegar's son who was just a baby may still be alive. We aren't told whose baby. It's just sort of thrown out there. And it's in yet another seemingly meaningless conversation between Davos and a bunch of islanders or seamen at the Sister Isles. They are also discussing Dany and who she is - although it takes them a while to get her name right. (Which if I didn't know better may be a parody of me attempting to get her name spelled right). Apparently, she's Rhaegar's sister, not daughter? It's admittedly confusing. So...there's a hint here of two things: 1) Rhaegar's son lived and they have no idea what happened to him (Probably is Jon Snow, since Jon Snow was clearly mentioned in the last chapter - and this is a definite pattern to GRRM's writing). 2) Dany is related to Jon Snow as his aunt, not sister, and would most likely not be the heir, Rhaegar's child would be??? Don't ask me, I re-read the thing twice and got a headache - granted to be fair, I was reading it in the doctor's office awaiting my steroid epidermal shot..and in incredible pain. So, there were extenuating factors.

Tyrion's chapter is also about the history of Westeros. This round it is about the Tigers and Elephants - a story being told to a young boy that Tyrion and two other men are teaching. The kid, Young Griff, is the son of the sellsword that Tyrion is journeying with and subordinate to. (Ironic that. Once again Tyrion's fate is in a sellswords hands).
I got a bit lost in this chapter, mainly because I was in pain while attempting to read it and take my mind off said pain. (I have a herniated disc.) Nothing like reading about other's pain...to make your own seem less of an issue. At any rate, near as I can figure - we learn that the battle of the Tigers and Elephants was resolved with dragons - that as Young Griff states: moral of story, if you want to win a war, bring dragons. Dragons seems to be a metaphor for nuclear weapons (not here, here dragons are literal. I meant in regards to our world.) The other two important bits - are 1) The legend of the Great Turtle - which marks the birth of Kings, (not sure what Tyrion meant by this - re-read it twice and still couldn't make sense of it - I obviously missed something), and 2) Tyrion's pain is derived from his guilt at allowing men to gang-rape his wife, because he thought she was just a whore. (This is important - Tyrion really doesn't respect women very much. He sees them as little more than sexual gratification or objects. It's repeated throughout the series. He has almost no relationship with them outside of sexual or confrontational. To Tyrion - almost all women are little more than whores. I catch it in the tv series as well. It's in part a projection of his own insecurities. He feels powerless, so he associates with whores who he sees as less than him, with less power. In this respect Tyrion and Littlefinger are reflections of each other - both manipulators, both have sharp wits, and both frequent whores - they also oddly both at one point or another become Sansa Stark's protector/husband/father. Seeing perhaps in Sansa - an innocent that they can't quite possess, can easily manipulate, and desire to protect as a means of redeeming themselves. The TV writers interestingly enough - only show the whores with Tyrion, Littlefinger and Theon. Three men who have no power, and are incredibly insecure. And the women are beautiful and yet attainable for gold. Deft way of getting across this same idea far quicker.)



Off to bed. Been up since 5:30 am. Am tired. I did write about Elementary but I dropped a tag and I hurt too badly to fix it. So it is gone. Frustrating, doesn't begin to cover my day. Oh well, time to go to bed, but first a hot shower.

Comments

[cactuswatcher.livejournal.com]

describes as being a lot like Firefly

You'll see if you do watch. It's not as edgy as Firefly, but then I think it has a chance of lasting a whole season (whatever a SyFy season may amount to). While watching it, I kept thinking it was Firefly without Joss' hangups. ;o) I'm not claiming it's the best show ever, but it's certain better than I thought it would be.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Oh good to know.

And I will definitely watch - co-worker came by again today to see if I'd watched it and informed me that his wife, who apparently hates sci-fi, but loves horror movies - loved it. I have a feeling he's going to pester me until I watch it. Poor dear.

[sophist.livejournal.com]

SPOILERS FOR GOT UP TO SK'S READING (NO FURTHER)

Dany is Rhaegar's sister. Rhaegar had 2 children by his wife Elia of Dorne: Rhaenys and Aegon. Both were allegedly killed by Gregor Clegane in the sack of King's Landing in Robert's Rebellion. Rumors continue that Aegon survived somehow.

Jon's parentage is in addition to this. If R+L=J, then Dany would be his aunt.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Unless Jon is Aegon and Ned took off with him? She'd still be his aunt in either event.

[sophist.livejournal.com]

Aegon's as much as a year older than Jon, so that would be a hard substitution. Still, we can't be sure of anything yet.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Yes, I just found out he's Young Griff - actually he seems to be younger than Jon, which is odd.

[embers-log.livejournal.com]

Well I didn't hate Defiance, but I would never have compared it in anyway to Firefly. It reminded me a bit more of 'V'.... I'm a little confused about the world they've created:
one ship arrived but I counted at least 5 different species of aliens, so were they all on that ship together? Are they some kind of weird terraformed humans?
Of course the story will eventually give us everyone's agenda, but so far the story seems sloppily written and a little maudlin (with no punchy dialogue). However I adore Julie Benz and Graham Green, they have interesting characters, so I may just watch for them.... I'll hang in there and see where this is going.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

From what I read - Earth has become a prison planet for other planets. So they ship they aliens their in a prison ship. At least that's what I read last year, it may have changed since then. Have to watch to know, I'm guessing.

[embers-log.livejournal.com]

Yeah, they may have changed the plot from what you'd read about last year. At any rate I found a Wiki site that explained to me what I didn't 'get' when I watched the show (about who all these different aliens are):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defiance_(TV_series)

I have to say that I'm beginning to not really care who Jon Snow's parents really are: there are so many differing opinions on the topic that I've just taken a 'wait and see' attitude (it isn't like his parentage has a huge impact on what's happening right now... ).

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I can't say I care that much who Jon's parents are either...fandom's obsession with it continues to bewilder me. It's not like there aren't other things to be obsessed with. Also not sure why it matters one way or the other - outside of being really ironic?

Also, how would they figure it out? They don't have paternity tests.
Someone would have had to write it down somewhere - that's the only way.
Because he certainly doesn't resemble the Tarragaryns.

That said, GRRM spends a lot of time giving us a shit-load of history.
Lots of weird names that I don't remember or haven't heard of.

[embers-log.livejournal.com]

Well they could always have a magical way of confirming who he is, like having one of the dragons let him ride it into battle or whatever....

But for now it just seems to me to be a pointless exercise in discussing it, we just don't have any reliable information (just lots of conflicting opinions).

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Oh...you do not understand us analytical fans who love to speculate and write metas. LOL!

The arguments we had regarding whether Spike sought his soul or not, or if he was going to get the chip out or not. We love to dissect this stuff to death.
It's why a group of us have fallen for OUAT - you can analyze that show to death.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Way back in Book 3, the Red Viper came to Westeros to avenge his sister, Rhaegar's wife, who The Mountain killed along with killing both of Rhaegar's legitimate children. This was why the Red Viper chose to be Tyrion's champion, for the opportunity to fight the Mountain to the death.

I tell you this because... it's important. ;)

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I vaguely remember that - which is why I was bewildered by people who stated that Rhaegar and Lysanna were married. Or even Cersei who thought she was going to be wed to Rhaegar. Didn't he marry the Princess of Dorn - which is why Dorn wants an alliance with Dany? You just verified that bit, thank you.

If Jon is Rhaegar's then he is illegitimate.

[sophist.livejournal.com]

Yes, Rhaegar did marry Elia, Princess of Dorne. The argument is that the Targaryens practiced polygamy, so Rhaegar could have married Lyanna as his second wife. Nobody knows for sure, but that would explain certain odd facts.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Okay, I now know what happened to Aegon - he's Young Griff, who is being raised in Valyria or Volantis by Jon Connington, Lord Griffin, the dear friend of Prince Rhaegar. He's currently on a boat with Tyrion, Connington/Lord Griff, Halmaster, and Sir Duck. Where I left off Tyrion had been pulled into the drink by one of the stone men (greymasters sickness) and is sinking to his watery doom. But I have a hunch one of his colleagues will reluctantly save him - because he saved Aegon/Young Griff.

That's what Tyrion meant by "kings are born" line and nice of GRRM to finally explain it.

The books slowly beginning to pick up speed. But GRRM wastes lots of time on history lessons and description - I honestly think the man is a frustrated medievalist, food critic, or war historian, one of the other.

[sophist.livejournal.com]

Yes, you got it exactly. I knew you were close to that point. The debate now is whether he's really Aegon. That's not a spoiler; nobody knows.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Yeah, it's not clear. He seems a bit young. Aegon should be older.
But fans will debate it to death.

[spikesjojo.livejournal.com]

Weren't the two dead children laid on the floor when Eddard Stark came and took the throne room. The baby, Aegon, had his head smashed into the wall - his sister tried to hide under the bed with her kitten.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Yes and no. According Tyrion that could have been any baby, the head was smashed in and unrecognizable.

[spikesjojo.livejournal.com]

Hmmm - the Lannisters arrived after Eddard - except for Jaime. I really can't see the Mountain making that mistake. But Martin is not all that predictable as we have both noticed. Gonn have to ponder that one.

Oh, wait - Jon Snow looks just like Eddard (more so than Robb), and Arya also looks like Eddard (and his sister Lyanna). I think there is Stark blood in Snow - and that would be Lyanna. And, aren't the Dornish darker in coloring?

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I think it is hard to really figure this out a head of time, since the writer has left a lot of things open. (Ex-evil tv serial writers - they are taught to do this to avoid ret-conning when actors take off mid-series.)

What I know so far from Dance, and keep in mind I'm only 28-29% of the way through:

* There's a possibility that someone switched the babies before the Mountain or the Lannisters showed up to kill them, so that Aegon survived. (It's mentioned in both Davos's chapter (with Lord Wyman Manderly - where someone mentions off hand that Aegon, Rhaegar's baby son may have survived - they aren't sure and if he did they don't know what happened to him) and Tyrion's chapter (Tyrion believes he's with a YA version of Aegon - who looks a great deal like the Tarragyn's - with the almost purple eyes and his hair is "dyed").

* There's a possibility that Jon Snow is a Tarragyn - but right now everyone in Dance believes he's Eddard Stark's kid by a fishwife, a woman who saved Stark when he was on the Sister Isles and from Lord Manderly. So no real evidence popping up outside of tiny hints in Catelynn, Eddard, Jamie and Cersei's points of view. But they are slight and nothing definite as far as I can tell. I admittedly skimmed most of Catelynn and Eddard and Cersei - because I found those characters pov's incredibly boring. So it's possible I missed stuff.

[spikesjojo.livejournal.com]

Yeah - just fan speculation at this point - and lord knows GRRM is great at the red herrings (how the hell did that phrase come about?!)

In fact, since he's known about it forever he might well go with an alternative.

They have done so much with the tournament - Howland Reed, and the incredible knight who is dead and whose name I forget. Yes - that is what started the war.....but I am still convinced because of the promise made on the bed of blood and roses, and by the fact that Rhaegar left his guard to watch over Lyanna.

Time will tell. And Martin takes time. I started waiting for Feast/Crows about 15 years ago. As I'm sure you know, it was all meant to be one book.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

As I'm sure you know, it was all meant to be one book.

And you can really tell - he writes it as if it is one book. Several of the points of view in Dance should have been in Feast - they take place at the start of Feast. It's like reading a story told out of chronological order - as if there wasn't enough to keep track of already.
Did GRRM get bored and decided to spice things up a bit for himself?

They have done so much with the tournament - Howland Reed, and the incredible knight who is dead and whose name I forget. Yes - that is what started the war.....but I am still convinced because of the promise made on the bed of blood and roses, and by the fact that Rhaegar left his guard to watch over Lyanna.

Okay, I admittedly managed to miss that bit of information...or forgot it. I thought the war was started by Rhaegar's alleged kidnapping of Lysanna who was a bit of a warrior in her own right? (OR at least that's what I remember Robert and Eddard stating.) Well that and Aegon Tarragyn requesting that Jamie kill his own father (if only he had - life would have been better for oh so many people) while Aeagon was busy having his alchemists burn people alive with the magical fire.

[spikesjojo.livejournal.com]

The popular theory is that Jon Snow is the son of Rhaegar and Eddard's sister. This is what he promised her on the bed of blood and roses - to save the child from Robert. And this is why he claimed the child is his and refused to answer any questions.

Rhaegar's son by his wife is definitely dead.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Well not according to Tyrion and Davos chapters - at the moment. Personally, I think Young Griff may be Edric Storm - Robert Barratheon's son whom Davos sent off across the narrow sea to save him from Stannis and Melisandre - who kept sacrificing Robert's sons to the red god, seriously between the Lannisters and Stannis - it does not pay to be Robert's offspring.

Don't tell me if that bit changes...also don't tell me if Tyrion survives. Right now he appears to be dead, although that could change, I honestly doubt GRRM will kill him off. Personally I find it highly annoying Martin kills people before they reach their destination or are united with their goal or the person they are looking for. It's gotten to the point that I want to tell the characters in his books - don't bother - stay put, fall on you sword, the writer won't let you reach it any way - it's hopeless.

[spikesjojo.livejournal.com]

Oh, God - yes!

I think the part that totally brought that home was the Red Wedding! I was betting on Rob to win the who thing and then.....Aargh!

I've been a fan of the books for over a decade. The series is good, but the books have so much more. Edric isn't even in the series. And I can't for the life of me figure out how he's gonna bring in Dorn!