Best Lists - Movies, Plays, Books, TV..etc

[shadowkat]

Been reading the latest Entertainment Weekly magazine - which is basically a guilty pleasure mag with about as much intellectual depth as a cream puff. I know that. That's why I read it. Because it is the entertainment magazine version of a cream puff.

But...this latest issue is an admittedly pretentious listing of the 100 "greatest" movies, television series, novels, albums, and plays of all time. Is there such a thing as a critical best list in a magazine that is not pretentious? Ponders. Don't know. It does seem bit presumptuous for critics to list their favorite books, movies, albums etc - and state that they are "the best". They do it anyway. Of course. The fact that people pay them to do it and we buy mags with nothing but their lists and reviews...is another discussion.

Anyhow...I obviously have quibbles with their best lists, just a few. Also I've come to the conclusion that I have read, seen, watched, and listened to why too many of films, tv shows, novels, albums and plays in my lifetime. (Because I've read, seen, listened to and/or watched 95% of the items on each list, not to mention own several of them. Omnivorous culture junkie at your service.)

1. The top 10 Shakespeare Plays. (Am admittedly a bit of Shakespeare geek, considering I 've seen practically all of them and read them.)



1. Hamlet (most overrated play on the planet - and I feel I can say that with some authority since I've read it ten times, memorized three scenes from it, written about, and watched it performed 10 different ways.)

2. King Lear (far more interesting play than Hamlet, just less quotable.)

3. Macbeth (I'd put it before Hamlet, it's more fun. And I like the Tomorrow Speech better than the To be or not to be speech. Also has stronger female characters.)

4. Much Ado About Nothing (Excuse me, no, Much Ado About Nothing does not come above Midsummer Night's Dream, Twelth Night and As You Like It. Sorry, I will not put a flawed misogynistic farce above the other three gender bender plays. The only thing that worked in that play was Benedict and Beatrice.)

5. A Midsummer Night's Dream (actually I'd put this third after King Lear and MacBeth. Having read, memorized, performed, and seen all of them done multiple times...)

6. Othello (Definitely above Much Ado...if only for the masterpiece that is Iago)

7. The Tempest (this I would put last, some great lines...but it is rather difficult to pull this play off well. It's a fun play..but there are better ones..Twelth Night comes to mind.)

8. Henry V (Romeo and Juliet has been performed more times and has far more going on than Henry the V. So too does Richard the III, which I prefer. Henry V just has that one great patriotic bit and the bit with Falstaff.)

9. Merchant of Venice (put it above Henry, definitely.)

10. Romeo and Juliet. (seriously? The most performed Shakesepearean play? With some of the strongest female roles???)

Okay my top ten:

1. Macbeth (one of the best female villains, and a great anti-hero. Excellent examination of how power corrupts and loss.)

2. King Lear (discussion of class, power, gender dynamics, father/daughter...an epic)

3. Midsummer Night's Dream (fun, but also a light and satirical take on romance and lust, perhaps one of the funniest comedic plays...if done right.)

4. Hamlet (the play within the play...is the whole reason it gets on this list. The chess match between the crazed with grief Hamlet and his murderous uncle..)

5. Twelth Night (gender bending at its best, and lots of interesting commentary on class)

6. Romeo and Juliet

7. Othello

8. The Tempest

9. Richard the III

10. Henry the V

Honorable mentions: As You Like It, Merchant of Venice (admittedly not a fan of this play)



2. 10 Greatest Musicals...



1. Guys & Dolls (WTF??)
2. Gypsey (seriously??)
3. Sweeney Todd : The Demon Barber of Fleet Street (yes, on the list, but third? No.)
4. Oklahoma! (what? Carousel and South Pacific are more interesting and have better musical arrangements)
5. West Side Story (yes, but in 5th place????? And after Guys and Dolls???)
6. Cabaret ( after Guys and Dolls??)
7. A Chorus Line
8. Rent
9. Carousel (I'd switch this with Oklahoma)
10. Book of Mormon (oh please.)

My list:

1. Cabaret
2. West Side Story
3. South Pacific
4. Les Miserables
5. Guys and Dolls
6. Into the Woods (I actually prefer Into the Woods to Sweeny Todd...)
7. Jesus Christ Superstar (sorry, better music than Book of Mormon and irreverant yet still relevant. In my opinion it is the best of the Andrew Lloyd Webber/Tim Rice pairing)
8. A Chorus Line
9. Rent
10. Avenue Que

Honorable mentions: My Fair Lady, Gigi, Sweeny Todd, A Little Night Music, Oklahoma, Pippin, Chicago, Evita)


3. 100 Movies...

First off, there's a dearth of comedies. There's only two Woody Allen, while I agree with Annie Hall, I hate Manhattan. (I'd have put the Purple Rose of Cairo or Crimes and Misdeamenors or at the very least Hannah and her Sisters.)

I'm sorry Bonnie and Clyde as number 4??? Overrated. The Year of Living Dangerously was better by Peter Wier, another one I like better is Badlands - with Martin Sheen and Sissy Spacek, who are also playing killers. The Searcher's is also overrated, I'd have put Red River instead at number 12. I'd also put Rear Window on the list, and it's not there. And, no, it should be The Lord of the Rings - The Fellowship of the Ring not The Return of the King (which only had three good scenes in three hours). Yes, one is more melodramatic, but the other is shorter and more gripping and less drug out.

Why do all the critics love Goldfinger? Dr. No and Skyfall were so much better.

Citizen Kane, I've decided, is the Ulysses of the film world. If you are a film buff/geek/critic who is obsessed with narrative style and technique, you love it to pieces, if you are anyone else? You went to sleep during the first five minutes.

I'd have put Lawrence of Arabia higher on the list. Also there's only one Charlie Chaplin (Gold Rush)- The Little Tramp should be there not Sunrise, and before Duck Soup. Not to mention the lack of Harold Lloyd films and Laurel and Hardy. And there doesn't appear to be any Luis Burneal...I'd have chosen at least one, maybe That Obscure Object of Desire? And where is "Death in Venice???" Also, what the heck is Titantic doing here before such classics as Terminator, Alien, Taxi Driver (Taxi is not on this list - I kid you not, instead Goodfellas and Mean Streets...). And while I liked the Dark Knight, I'd have put Taxi Driver first.

It's sad, but I think I've seen 95% of the 100 movies on this list.

4. 100 best TV series...

Okay, I agree with the ranking of the Wire (number 1) and Buffy the Vampire Slayer number 8.
Not sure about the Mary Tyler Moore Show at number 4, there were better and more iconic series. I'd have put MASH there personally. Or for that matter, The Andy Griffith Show and Mad Men at 7 and 9 respectively? I'd have put Breaking Bad which is way way down the list before both.

They also ranked Buffy #3 in the list of the 10 greatest dramas. Which I do agree with. I do not however agree on My So Called Life, The X-Files or Law & Order. I'd put Battle Star Galatica v2 in above My So Called Life (which got silly after its first season - sort of a 15 year old's version of thirtysomething). And I'm admittedly not an X-Files fan (although I did watch it off and on...and it did have moments, isolated moments of brilliance mainly due to Vince Gilligan who is the showrunner for Breaking Bad.)

Breaking Bad is too far down this list - it's at 18, so too is MASH and Hill Street Blues. Whoever came up with this list has a huge weakness for sitcoms..which are in the top ten.

Friends at 21? Really? IT wasn't that funny. I watched it. MASH is better, so too was Barney Miller and Taxi.

Another quibble is 10 Greatest Cult Classics, here's their list:


1. The Wire (okay, agree)
2. Buffy the Vampire Slayer (agree)
3. Arrested Development (yep)
4. My So-Called Life (NO! Farscape or BSG or Bab 5, please...not this.)
5. The X-Files (okay...but I think it is pretty mainstream)
6. Doctor Who (should be much higher on the list...like #3 at least)
7. Star Trek Next Generation (agreed, although it came close to mainstream too.)
8. Mystery Science Theater 3000 (okaay...)
9. The Comeback (someone at EW has a thing for short lived sitcoms, just saying)
10. It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia. (eh...probably, although...I don't know)

My List:
1. Doctor Who (on longevity alone)
2. The Wire
3. Buffy the Vampire Slayer
4. Arrested Development
5. The X-Files
6. Star Trek (original series)
7. Battle Star Galatica version 2
8. WKRP in Cinncinnati or Mary Hartman/Mary Hartman
9. STar Trek the Next Generation
10. Babylon 5

Honorable mention: Firefly, Veronica Mars, Farscape, Deep Space Nine

Do you have a list?


Nor do I agree with the 10 Greatest Sitcoms...



1. The Simpsons
2. Seinfield
3. The Mary Tyler Moore Show
4. All in the Family
5. The Andy Griffith Show
6. I Love Lucy
7. Cheers
8. The Cosby Show
9. Roseanne
10 Arrested Development.

That's a boring list. Mine:

1. MASH
2. Seinfeild
3. I Love Lucy (I didn't like it but I admit it has to be on the list)
4. Cheers/Fraiser (tie)
5. Taxi
6. Mary Tyler Moore Show/Dick Van Dyke Show (tie)
7. All in the Family
8. WKRP in Cinncinati/News Radio (tie)
9. Roseanne/Cosby Show (tie)
10. Arrested Development

Honorable mentions: Louis CK, Time Goes By, Coupling (which I like better than Friends, it's the British version and it made me laugh more), Fawlty Towers


Why isn't Gunsmoke listed?? Gunsmoke is amongst the longest running tv series of all time and created a genre, more than one person has copied. Firefly, Defiance, Deep Space Nine, Star Wars, and others have copied bits of Gunsmoke. But do they list it? No. Instead The Rifleman is listed, the Rifleman???...and Freaks and Geeks which lasted only one season.

Why the hell is Ally McBeal on this list? Or Beverly Hills 90210??? I get Dallas, but...

Also have quibbles about the 10 Greatest Sci-fi Shows:


1. Buffy the Vampire Slayer (first of all this isn't really a science fiction series...more fantasy than anything else, but I don't quibble with it being one, just the categorization. Yes, I know they did robots, but it was still fantasy science.)
2. The Twilight Zone (eh...okay, works. No one beats Rod Serling, well except Whedon apparently.)
3. Lost (no, I'm sorry BSG was better, so too was Farscape and Bab 5.)
4. The X-Files (yes, definitely, but I'd put it above LOST)
5. Doctor Who (this should be number 3 or number 1)
6. The Prisoner (eh...no, at the end of the list)
7. Star Trek the Next Generation
8. Battle Star Galactica
9. Myster Science Theater 3000 (okay I found it to be unwatchable most of the time...but YMMV)
10. Star Trek.

My List:

(I like Buffy, but it is not sci-fi).
1. Twilight Zone
2. Doctor Who
3. Farscape
4. BattleStar Galatica 2003-09
5. Star Trek the Next Generation
6. Babylon 5
7. The X-Files
8. The Prisoner
9. Star Trek 1966-69
10. Lost

Honorable mentions: Firefly, Deep Space Nine, Misfits, Now and Again,


Now if we were doing 10 Greatest Horror-Fantasy TV Series:

1. Buffy
2. Game of Thrones
3. The Walking Dead
4. Angel the Series
5. American Gothic
6. Being Human (UK version)
7. Once Upon a Time
8. Vampire Diaries
9. Forever Knight
10. Highlander

Honorable mention: Merlin


5. 100 Greatest Novels

I don't know, I've admittedly never read Anna Karenia, but is it really the greatest novel ever written? I'm not sure there is one to be honest. It's akin to picking straws. And my mind changes daily. I do agree that The Great Gatsby depends on frame of mind - but I appreciated it at 17. I also appreciated Old Man and the Sea at 17 and gobbled up just about any literary classic I could get my hands on. Thought the Great Gatsby was amazing and I still remember it vividly at 46, go figure. A little dry in places, but amazing. I was into literary books in my teens and twenties, having previously burned out on the non-literary ones. Now I've gone the opposite direction, I blame it on perimenopause, work, and an inability to focus.

This list is notable for having a lot of female writers on it and fairly high up. Also no Ulysses, but that is an admittedly difficult book for most people to read. That said, I would have put it on the list above One Hundred Years of Solitude and The Sound and the Fury. Neither of which I remember as well as Ulysess, which was written prior to the other two and gave the other two writers the idea, even though I read all three around the same time. (I was going through a phrase - in which I'd become enamored of stream of consciousness and poetic prose narrative styles. I was more interested in writing style and metaphor in my early twenties than story. Complete opposite now. Very weird.)

Atlas, Shrugged by Ayn Rand at #36? Are they insane? And their excuse?

Rarely does a book rivet you and make you ponder the Big Picture, but Rand's masterwork, about a man who decides to organize a strike and bring the world to a stand still does both.

Oh dear. Apparently somebody is not quite as well-read as they think they are? Rand's book is horse manure. I'm sorry it is. I've read almost all of her books - and it's the least readable and silliest. I made it half-way through and rolled my eyes, then began to giggle. You can basically get the same message in Anthem, which is tighter and far better written.

I'm sorry, just as it is very hard for me to take a best film list seriously that has Titantic on it, it is equally hard to take any list seriously that has Atlas, Shrugged on it. They also left off one of the best mysteries ever written - Dashielle Hammett's masterpiece "The Maltese Falcon". This was left off of the Movie list too. Sad. "Member of the Wedding by Carson McCullers" was also left off.

6. 50 Greatest Plays of the Last 100 years

Death of a Salesman? At number one? The most overrated play on the planet. Men love this play for some reason. It's good. But the best? Over Shakespeare? I just don't agree with their list...Streetcar Named Desire at number 2? I personally prefer Six Characters in Search of an Author.

Also what happened Christopher Durang's Sister Mary Ignatius Explains it All To You? Or "Wit" - which I would have put in there over The Women.

The problem with being a culture junkie is you are constantly quibbling with best lists. ;-)

Comments

[gingerwall.livejournal.com]

The Wire is a cult show? I thought it was pretty mainstream.

Thank you for eating cream puffs, and telling us about it, so we don't have to. :)

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Hee. The lovely thing about cream puffs - is you can discard them and easily forget them. LOL! Also they are a lot of fun to ridicule.

Regarding The Wire - no it was cult. Few people knew about it when it aired on HBO - because Sopranoes was the big deal. It never really got nominated for an emmy, except briefly. And was almost cancelled twice.
Had a huge critical and fan following on the internet though. Qualifies as cult. In some respects more so than Star Trek Next Generation and
The X-Files. But again, it depends on how you define cult.

[atpo-onm.livejournal.com]

I'm only going to go after the list of cult classics, because they're the shows that have facsinated me the most over the years I have been watching television (many, mmannnnyy years...) and also never really grabbed onto a large, mainstream audience, sometimes even after being on the air for several years.

Also, I'm going to cheat a bit on the first three, because at any given moment, I can watch them and think any of them could be number one, you know?

1a. The Avengers (John Steed / Emma Peel series only)

1b. The Sarah Conner Chronicles

1c. Buffy the Vampire Slayer / Angel

4. Firefly

5. The Prisoner

6. Hill Street Blues

7. St. Elsewhere

8. Battlestar Galactica (newer version)

9. Fringe

10. La Femme Nikita (not the current one, the one on the USA network)

Honorable mention goes to a show that had the potential for brilliance but got axed after one season, NBC's "Journeyman". Not sure if a cult ever formed around this show, but if it didn't, it should have. I also liked Whedon's "Dollhouse" better than most did, although if the choice came down to Dollhouse or Sarah Connor, sorry no contest. Of course the network thought otherwise, typical.

Is the viewership high enough on "The Good Wife" to consider it mainstream? If not, that would go at No. 4 and everything else would move down one spot.

Anyway, thar they be!

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

The cult one is hard - because not everybody defines cult the same way apparently. I normally define it as you are - which are tv series that didn't get high ratings, were hard to find, and below the radar. Often jumping channels, and close to cancellation - with huge followings.

The Good Wife - has been in the Nielsen top 10 various times and is rated highly enough to win it a prized Sunday night time slot. So no, not cult.
Also...it doesn't appear to have the same type of fan following.

I'm not sure about Hill Street Blues and St. Elsewhere...both appear to more mainstream. They lasted a long time, although they did jump channels a lot and often were on the verge of cancellation - critical acclaim kept them alive. The Wire actually falls in the same category - it also came close to cancellation a lot, but stayed on the same channel. The Wire unlike the other two - does have an insane cult following, and never got an emmy, so never made it to mainstream.

Agree on Sarah Connor (which I keep forgetting about) and La Femme Nikita (yes, definitely the original USA version - which was I got cable originally), Fringe, Firefly, the Prisoner, Buffy/Angel, and The Avengers - would make the list. I'd put in Bab 5 and Farscape though, which you may not have really seen. Farscape had such a huge cult following - the fans got a two-part mininseries made that wrapped up the storyline plus comics. Bab 5, got cancelled, picked up by another network and two spin-offs.

X-Files and Star Trek almost feel too popular now to be cult. So on the fence.

[atpo-onm.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure about Hill Street Blues and St. Elsewhere...both appear to more mainstream. They lasted a long time, although they did jump channels a lot and often were on the verge of cancellation - critical acclaim kept them alive.

To clarify, I believe you mean change time-slots rather than jump channels? Both were NBC shows, IIRC, and didn't change networks during their runs. (Hard to believe how great NBC was once when you look at the dreck they put out now-- it's just sad.)

I believe Hill Street was nearly cancelled at the end of its very first year, and you're right, only extreme praise fromthe critical press caused them to give it another lease on life. However, I don't think the numbers ever did get large (in major TV network opinion) and so the show was a kind of cult-- people either liked it right off (like me) or were slow to warm to it or not at all.

Hill Street re-defined the "Cop Show", one of the three staples of television for decades, the others being the Doc Show and the Western. And not just the cop show, but TV writing and acting in general-- the huge ensemble cast, the multiple story arcs and overlapping plot lines, all of which are taken for granted nowadays pretty much didn't exist back then. St. Elsewhere followed up very shortly after Hill Street (and was another project of the MTM Studios) with the same approach to the Doc Show.

Many people were very uneasy about watching a hospital drama where the doctors not only weren't perfect, but often screwed things up and appeared to be pretty much-- normal human beings. Dr Kildare, Ben Casey or Marcus Welby they very much weren't.

So, that iffy-ness on the yearly renewals and lowish overall viewership and the fact they were game-changers equals cult status to me.

Oh, and while I was just Googling to get a list of famous TV doctors because I couldn't remember "Marcus Welby" by name, there is yet another show I had forgotten about that I surely feel fits in this category-- China Beach. Brilliant show, again a game changer, largely unknown cast, low viewership, all that stuff. Did make Dana Delany and Marg Helgenberger into bankable actors though, and deservedly so.

Hmmm, now I've gotta go find out if that was released on DVD...

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I meant changing time slots. Sorry about that. Writing these posts too fast apparently.

I still think of Hill Street as too mainstream. Most people consider it the best of the cop series.

Cult tends to be under-appreciated, something that falls below most people's radar. A good test of cult - at least by my definition of it - is if you bring it up amongst co-workers, most will have no idea what you are talking about.

Calling Hill Street Blues cult is a bit like calling the film Casablanca or Citizen Kane cult or MASH.

Homicide Life on the Streets on the other hand...yes, that was more cult, few knew about it. But even then, I don't know. You can't call the Sopranoes cult for the same reason.

The Wire in stark contrast very few people knew about. I'd never heard of it until people on my flist pushed me to watch it.

China Beach? Eh maybe. Although I think Tour of Duty may fit it better, Tour of Duty was lesser known.

I'm not saying they aren't brilliant tv series. And by the way EW forgot to list China Beach, dang them. I would have listed China Beach over some of the other ones listed.

Cult - at least by my definition - doesn't mean ground-breaking, so much as a tv series that few have heard of, and has gotten little to no recognition, yet has an insane fan following that keeps it alive. (ie. Star Trek back in the 1970s-1980s, which lasted 3 seasons or Veronica Mars...or even Buffy.)

[cactuswatcher.livejournal.com]

Shakespeare: I think The Tempest reads very well, but as you say it's a little hard to make work on the stage. I saw a version once with Richard Burton as Calaban that really did work. MacBeth is probably my favorite, too. The Merchant of Venice has its moments, but these days it's so politically abhorrent, it really belongs on popularity lists of a different century.

Musicals: Sweeny Todd?? As a vehicle for Angela Lansbury it wasn't bad, but otherwise I think it's pretty awful. Gypsy better than South Pacific or My Fair Lady???

Anna Karenina: You might like it. It does tend to polarize readers. Personally, I think it's okay, but not on my list of top ten novels I've read, let alone number on the list.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Agreed on Shakespeare. I struggle with Merchant of Venice - Portia is a great role, but it is politically abhorrent in places. The Jew of Malta by Christopher Marlow is oddly more digestible.

MacBeth has the most going on and can be done in the most interesting ways.
Richard Burton did a gangster version on stage in the 1960s? I listened to a radio version of it in an English Lit class in high school in the 80s.

Musicals - Sweeny Todd - while interesting because it's a very dark musical, doesn't really have that many good songs and too many similar notes. Plus Cabaret - an equally dark musical is much much better. Into the Woods is better - of the Sondheim's, so too is a Little Night Music.

I'm admittedly not a fan of Gypsey, but it is a better musical than Sweeny Todd. And South Pacific is the best of the Rodgers & Hammerstein, with Carousel a close second.

Anna Karenina: You might like it. It does tend to polarize readers. Personally, I think it's okay, but not on my list of top ten novels I've read, let alone number on the list.

It admittedly surprised me, although I've admittedly not read it. But then I saw Atlas, Shrugged - and well..okaay.

[petzipellepingo.livejournal.com]

Guys and Dolls? Are they kidding? It's a nice musical but No. 1. That's just wrong and the other four are kinda iffy IMO.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Yep, I thought the same thing. It's very light and bubbly. And there's not a lot of dance or difficult themes involved.

Curious though - what is your list? When I did my list I suddenly drew a blank. Which is odd considering how many I've seen on and off Broadway and in films. I'm not sure you can use Singing in the Rain - because they are mainly talking about staged musicals.

[petzipellepingo.livejournal.com]

We've just been talking about that over at my West Side Story community, so...

1. West Side Story - obviously
2. Porgy and Bess
3. Show Boat
4. South Pacific
5. Fiddler on the Roof

As you can see, I tend to go for ones that break new ground in both material covered and musical styles. If I had to list 10 then I'd include Cabaret, Oklahoma, Sweeney Todd, Hair, Rent.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure Porgy and Bess counts as a song/dance musical - it's really an Opera even though people keep trying to turn it into a musical (having just seen it done on Bway and being in it myself..I can attest to that.) Although you can say the same about the Andrew Lloyd Webber musicals and Les Miz. But Porgy and Bess feels like it should be in a class by itself, somehow. It does stand apart though in oh so many ways.

And Show Boat...did it really break new ground? Also very hard to revival due to certain issues. Seemed similar to the others of that time. I'd have to say My Fair Lady is a bit better and more innovative - particularly with the talking rap style..of Rex Harrison. OR Jesus Christ Superstar - which did something totally new - brought rock and religion into the game, and critiqued religion. Les Miz was the first truly epic musical. And the only truly successful one. Miss Saigon, Kiss of the Spider Woman, Evita, etc tried but Les Miz eclisped them.
I'd put Les Miz before Show Boat, I think.

Fiddler on the Roof - yes, I'd forgotten about it, although I don't know why, I have the soundtrack on my ipod. Definitely innovative.

Cabaret...I'd put either first or second, because it is just so different and there's nothing similar. It and West Side Story are the two best and deal with similar issues in vastly different ways.

Carousel over Oklahoma...I think. Better songs.

Hair over Rent...definitely. Hair was similar to Godspell and Rent in what it did, but I think does it slightly better and was more groundbreaking.

It's hard for me to do a list. They are so incredibly different. I can't do a list of greatest novels or tv shows really for the same reasons.

[petzipellepingo.livejournal.com]

Showboat was a huge groundbreaker for its day, it dealt with racial prejudice and actually had black performers on stage in an era when they were banished to "negro musicals" of their own.

And Porgy, of course, was also a groundbreaker for having a black cast and because it is such an operatic piece.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Looking at that perspective makes sense. Again, I don't see Porgy and Bess as a musical so much as an opera - like La Boheme. Gershwin even called it his Opera. So innovative yes - just in another category, maybe? When I saw it - I felt like I was watching an opera not a musical. Which granted could also be said about Les Miz. But more so in P&B's case. There was little dancing and a lot of standing in the middle of the stage and singing your heart out.

Show Boat...definitely for its day. Rarely performed though. And dated. It had a revival on Bway a while back which tanked. I'm struggling to remember it. I've admittedly only seen the old screen version with ?? I think Paul Robeson?? singing Old Man River - which is also the only thing I can remember from it.

But outside of Porgy and Bess..no, wait, there is another one Ragtime and
also DreamGirls. DreamGirls is actually better pick in some respects than Porgy and Bess for this category.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

After some thought, you convinced me on Showboat, and I agree on P&B to the extent it can be considered a musical and not an opera.

[sophist.livejournal.com]

I love The Wire, but I'd rate it below Buffy for a couple of reasons:

1. The best episodes of The Wire are not as great, nor as innovative, as the best episodes of Buffy (e.g., The Body, Hush, OMWF).

2. Buffy ran more than twice as long. There are only, what, 50 some episodes of The Wire. There are 144 of Buffy. Buffy maintained it's greatness much longer. That's even more true because S5 of The Wire really isn't up to the standards of 1-4.

That said, The Wire was much more consistently written. No episode is even remotely as bad as, say, I Robot, You Jane or Teacher's Pet. And no episode of The Wire offends me the way As You Were does. But for me, that's like the difference between Henry Aaron and Willie Mays: Aaron was more consistent, but Mays hit higher peaks and held those peaks longer.

BTW, what were the 7 TV series and 2 dramas they rated ahead of Buffy?

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

The 10 Greatest TV Series

1. The Wire
2. The Simpsons
3. Seinfeld
4. The Mary Tyler Moore Show
5. The Sopranoes (most overrated television series in my humble opinion, I gave up in the middle of S3)
6. All in the Family
7. The Andy Griffth Show (Eh, MASH is better)
8. Buffy the Vampire Slayer
9. Mad Men
10. Your Show of Shows.

(yes, whomever is putting together this list has a huge weakness for family style sitcoms...)

10 Greatest Dramas:
1. The Wire
2. The Sopranoes
3. Buffy the Vampire Slayer
4. Mad Men
5. Breaking Bad
6. My So-Called Life
7. Law and Order
8. Lost
9. Prime Suspect (UK)
10. The X-Files

(also a weakness for anti-hero dramas).

Here's the explanation for the WIRE:

The most sustained narrative in television history, The Wire used the drug trade in Baltimore, heavily researched by creator David Simon, to tell tales of race and class with unprecedented complexity. (Perhaps that's why the show never won a much-deserved Emmy for Outstanding Drama Series and earned only two nominations for writing). Politics, the war on drugs, labor unions, public education, the media - these were among the big themes, all examined through exquisitely drawn characters, such as the brilliant yet broken detective Jimmy McNulty (Dominic West) and the great avenging thug Omar Little (Michael K. Williams), who live on in legend.

I'm not sure they quite understood the brilliance of Buffy. Their explanation is Joss Whedon's poppy profound cult saga starring Sarah Michelle Gellar is the best coming-of-age fantasy ever? Even Harry Potter wonders.

[sophist.livejournal.com]

Thanks. And yeah, I'd have to say that's a bit incomplete as an understanding of Buffy.

I personally don't see any reason to compare sitcoms to dramas in terms of quality. There's just no common ground on which to compare them. But if I were going to rate sitcoms, MASH would definitely rank above most of the ones they list (I don't watch The Simpsons, so I don't have an opinion on that).

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I'd have to agree they are different categories in the emmies for a reason. You really can't compare Seinfeld to The Wire. Situation Comedies are about the joke or the comedic aspects in situations or the absurd humor in them. Dramas can contain comedy and be hilarious funny, but their whole purpose isn't comedy - they are striving for a different goal, so it isn't a requirement.

There are few that fit in both categories - MASH and BUFFY were Dramedies - in that they were often hilariously funny at the same time as painfully dramatic. Both were black comedies - making fun of the tragic.

Here's the list of 10 Greatest Sitcoms...

1. The Simpsons (can't believe you've never seen the Simpsons, I personally prefer South Park, but that's just me)
2. Seinfeld
3. the Mary Tyler Moore Show
4. All in the Family
5. The Andy Griffith Show
6. I Love Lucy
7. Cheers
8. The Cosby Show
9. Roseanne
10. Arrested Development (which was the first of the documentary style sitcoms)

I can't remember I think I listed them above too. Regarding my own list, it appears to change hourly. I'm not sure you can compare family oriented sitcoms with workplace ones - two different animals, sort of like comparing geese to swans.

[sophist.livejournal.com]

I used to be a big sitcom fan -- that's pretty much all I watched until about the age of 30 or so. Then I just lost my taste for them and haven't watched any since. I like Dramedies, cult shows, etc.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I've always struggled with sitcoms. I actually prefer the British comedies which tend to be more witty, satiric and absurd and less slapsticky, into obscure parodies and juvenile.

That said - Big Bang Theory definitely has its moments. The Simpsons relies far too much on parody and obvious satire..for its own good.
I watched it when I was younger. (That series has been on forever, it seems. It started, in the 1980s and is STILL going. At this rate it will catch up with Doctor Who and the daytime serials.)

MASH is my favorite - which probably says something about my sense of humor and views of sitcoms. Actually my favorites are in no particular order:

1. Mash
2. Cheers
3. Night Court
4. Seinfeld
5. Big Band Theory
6. Coupling (British)
7. Taxi
8. News Radio
9. Fraiser
10. WKRP In Cinncinatti

I preferred work place comedies to family ones.