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shadowkatI sort of want to call it "suffer the children". That said, this was actually the best season finale of GOT to date, my favorite to date, and I enjoyed how it played out in some respects better than the books. The books are rather frustrating - in that you have all these people aimlessly wandering about and never finding one another or finding out what happened to one another - so no closure. Also, they appear to wander for ages and ages, with frequent battles, but not much else happening. (Amongst the many reasons I slugged through Feast and got bogged down in ADoD.) Clearly, the writers chose not to go that route. Hurray! You can't really do it on television or film anyhow, well not without your audience wandering off to another network.
"The Children" title was rather fitting. In each of the vignettes the children, whomever they may be, appear to obtain the upper hand over their adult guardians or at the very least prove to be a bit more deadly or elusive than their parental figures/guardians had counted on. Throughout the series - GRRM underlines how strength and power are not necessarily just attributes of the physically powerful. Nor is it pre-ordained that the physically powerful or privileged will win the game. And well, teach/treat your children well...because you have no idea when they may turn a cross bow on you or for that matter burn someone elses' children.
This episode did change a few things from the books, it also condensed at least two character arcs, while clarifying others. In some respects I think these changes were necessary and warranted.
* Jamie/Tyrion Scene. In the books, Jamie for some reason or other feels compelled to confess to his brother about how he lied to him about Tysha - on their father's orders.
Jamie, if memory serves - it's admittedly been a while, informs Tyrion that Tysha, Tyrion's first wife, was not a whore and did love him. That he had lied to him. Which resulted in Tyrion allowing his father's men to basically gang rape her. Destroyed by his brother's betrayal (which had happened 10 or 15 years ago and was at the bequest of Tywin, also Jamie is clearly remorseful of), Tyrion lashes out at Jamie and informs him that he killed Joffrey because Joffrey orchestrated the hit on Bran and framed him for the crime. All of this is in Jamie's point of view. And...the conversation from a character/plot perspective never made any sense. I remember being jarred by it in the books - thinking why in the heck would Jamie confess this to Tyrion now? The writer tried hard to give him a reason to confess it. Really hard. But seriously, the character was never much into bearing his heart to people and there's no way in hell he would have told Tyrion that while he was in the process of freeing him and trying to get him to trust him. He may be guilt-ridden, but there simply is no time and he's not dumb. I knew why GRRM did it in the books of course - it was to provide the reader with a resolution to what happened to Bran, and who really tried to assassinate him.
And, still in Jamie's pov, we have Jamie remembering the breakfast with Cersei and the children, where Robert Barratheon told Joffrey that Bran would be better off dead and they should just kill him to put him out of his misery. Which was why Joffrey hired the assassin. (This never quite worked for me in the books either. Felt a bit contrived and unnecessary. Also far too long after the fact, at this point, I'd forgotten about it and no longer cared.)
So, I was not surprised that the writers of the television series removed that conversation in its entirety. It's not necessary. It doesn't further the plot. You don't need it to destroy Tyrion or motivate him to kill his father. Nor do you need it to split the brother's apart -- because that wasn't really necessary for the plot or character development. Tyrion's reached rock bottom anyhow. Plus his anger at Jamie for a crime long-since done, which Jamie to be fair was upset enough about that he confessed and really wasn't responsible, was fairly out of character and a bit idiotic. Tyrion isn't 12.
Add to that, in order for it to work on the tv show- they'd have to have given us some build-up. There was none. No one, who had not read the books, had a clue who Tysha was or what had happened with her. I think Tyrion makes a vague reference to it in S1 and that's it. So that scene just doesn't make any sense. Nor is it needed to further either character's arc.
As for the resolution of the Bran bit - at this point I doubt anyone cares. And I think the writers just let it be assumed that it was Cersei or decided to leave it hanging.
Condensing that scene gave the bit with Tywin and Tyrion far greater impact. I never liked the Tyrion/Shae sequence, bit here it's more tragic and less...misogynistic.
In the book - she taunts him first, then he strangles her. Also he's more hateful about it. Tyrion is actually portrayed much darker in the books. Also he has no nose. The tv writers have been far kinder to the character.
Loved the scenes with Tyrion. Adore Peter Dinklage in this role. That scene with Tywin blew me away. Both actors at the top of their game. It was actually better than it was in the books. And they kept it the way it had been written - with Tywin on the pot.
Although, I vaguely remember Tyrion killing him with a sword not a crossbow?
* Ayra/Brienne/Hound and Podric - this felt like fanfic on the writers part. It never happened in the books. Although it was highly satisfying. I remember being annoyed in the books that Brienne never figured out that Ayra was still alive and wandering. This played out better. Also the Hound's statement to her that there is no place that is safe for Arya. "Where are you going to take her? To whom? Her mother's dead, her brother's are dead, and her Aunt is dead?" Poor Brienne, poor Hound.
And Ayra seeing Brienne - a female fighter, knight, and expert swordsman taking out Sandor Clegan with a broad sword - is rather fitting.
I adored the last scene with Ayra and The Hound...it played the same as the books, with the same level of ambiguity in it. (I'm not sure, but I thought the Hound resurfaced later with Stoneheart's group? And that point - reconnects with Brienne? If that's true, then this little bit works quite well in laying the ground work for that.)
* Bran/Jojen/Hodor/Mereen and The Children
In the books, we're first introduced to the Children by Jon Snow and Ygritte in the caves, which they cut out. Can see why - it was confusing.
We also have Bran/Jojen/Hodor/Mereen meet up with Samwell and Gilly on the far side of the Wall. He begs Sam not to tell Jon that he's alive. And through Sam meets Cold Hands and the Great Buck - which is built up in Bran's dreams and in the books over the course of several chapters. The Bran crew is attacked twice by wights, the first time Cold Hands saves them. But Cold Hands can't go to the tree and sacrifices himself to save Bran and Jojen, the second time by - I can't remember. I think Jojen does die but I can't remember how exactly. But I remember that speech - how he foresaw it but came anyhow. The whole 3 eyed raven bit didn't happen until A Dance With Dragons - so they moved that story arc forward and condensed it considerably. (Apparently this series is slated to run five-six years, so they have condensed various things.)
At any rate, I was happy with how they did it. Bran's arc and the whole cold hands bit was dull and exceedingly gross. Also really not necessary to the story as a whole.
* Stannis/Mance/Jon Snow/Davoss - this is different too. First of all, I don't think Davoos went to the wall. I think he went south instead to drum up support for Stannis and the fight at the wall. Or did he go to the Wall first and then go south? Can't remember.
Mance's wife and child aren't shown nor mentioned - so are they planning on cutting that out? Along with the baby swap between Gilly and Mance's wife? Because if so - that's huge and affects Sam, Gilly, and Jon's arcs in a major way.
Is it wrong that I was rooting for Mance? I was in the books too, actually. He has a good point - his people are no longer safe north of the wall. And honestly they aren't any more dangerous or nasty then all the people that Jon Snow and associates are protecting.
Curious how they are going to handle some of the Stannis bit next year, considering how they've changed a few things here and there.
I was never that invested in that storyline. In part because I only cared about Sam, Mance, Gilly and Maester Aemon, once they left, that was that. Jon, Stannis, Melisandre and Davvos frankly bored me - although Jon Snow did begin to grow on me on the books.
I think the writer moved Stannis up to the wall to kick some energy into that storyline.
* Jamie/Cersei - I thought he turned her down in the books - something about not wanting to have sex in the hollowed chamber and his honor? I seem to remember him casting her off?
They Jamie/Cersei sex scenes are oddly handled in this series. They played out quite differently in the novels. I did adore Cersei in this episode. Her scenes with her father were classic. Stating how she had no intention on allowing him to sacrifice another one of his children for power. And that's all he cared about. More than his children. He just cared about power and legacy.
She also proved that he'd been ignoring what they were doing - even if it was staring him in the face. Headly was wonderful in that scene as was Charles Dance - who managed to convey just the right touch of bewildered horror and pain.
* Lady Stoneheart - Interesting that they didn't do that yet. I sort of get why. It requires a bit more build up. I do believe they will do it - the writer's are far too sadistically inclined not to - and it's a fan favorite. Be a bit like not doing the Red Wedding. Also, it's sort of vital to at least two character's arcs, possibly three.
* Dany and her dragons - I remember how painful that was in the books. More so here.
Poor Dany. Poor dragons. But it was what she'd taught her children - that it was okay to kill. She's struggling with this ruling bit and with power. She's incredibly self-righteous, but hasn't figured out yet that the world is not quite as black and white as she'd like it. In this episode two bits were floated out - one : a former slave wanted to go back to his masters - to continue working, he'd been taken care of along with his family, now free - they had no where to go and nothing to eat. All they'd known was a life of servitude. two: the dragons she loved were killing humans in order to eat. Dany made huge changes without understanding everything.
Great episode. Best in a while.
In other news? Went shopping at the Atlantic Avenue Mall after work. And was sort of reminded of why I hate shopping. You can never find your size in the clothes you want and always can in the clothes you don't want. That said, did find a few things to spend money on. As luck would have it, ended up spending most of my money at Old Navy. Marshall's was a bust - their clothing sucked beans. Target not a heck of a lot better - but found a shirt and a sweater there. Uniloqu - a new trendy store exported from Japan, clearly is not for anyone over 5'4 or more than 90 pounds. Brienne of Tarth - wouldn't fit in their clothes. Shae or Arya might thought. Sansa and Gilly and Cersei? Doubtful. They only go up to size 10. Designed for tiny women. Also it's an insane store, with a lot of skin tight clothing, and branding. What is with the skin-tight styles? They look horrible on anyone who isn't aneorexic or built like a twig.
Did find a few things at Old Navy. A jeans jacket. A pair of khaki capri pants, a pair of long black slacks, a knit crew top, a sleeveless top, and a t-shirt. Also an extremely comfortable, think blanket soft, work sweater from Target.
Not a fan of the summer styles - which are clearly designed for beach going and extremely thin twenty-somethings and teens. Preferred the styles out last year.
Also, no purple. Had to really look for purple. Lots of ugly lime green, beige, yellow, and orange.
While cheaper than Lord and Taylor, L&T still has the better collection. I've jumped from a size 18W to a size 14 or 12 depending on the designer. Old Navy? 14, but it runs tight. Uniqueloq - no clue, I gave up - they are designing for women who have the same body type as Kate Moss or an adolescent boy (ie. no bust or hips or ass or long legs). Jones New York/Rafella/Ralph Lauren - 12.
"The Children" title was rather fitting. In each of the vignettes the children, whomever they may be, appear to obtain the upper hand over their adult guardians or at the very least prove to be a bit more deadly or elusive than their parental figures/guardians had counted on. Throughout the series - GRRM underlines how strength and power are not necessarily just attributes of the physically powerful. Nor is it pre-ordained that the physically powerful or privileged will win the game. And well, teach/treat your children well...because you have no idea when they may turn a cross bow on you or for that matter burn someone elses' children.
This episode did change a few things from the books, it also condensed at least two character arcs, while clarifying others. In some respects I think these changes were necessary and warranted.
* Jamie/Tyrion Scene. In the books, Jamie for some reason or other feels compelled to confess to his brother about how he lied to him about Tysha - on their father's orders.
Jamie, if memory serves - it's admittedly been a while, informs Tyrion that Tysha, Tyrion's first wife, was not a whore and did love him. That he had lied to him. Which resulted in Tyrion allowing his father's men to basically gang rape her. Destroyed by his brother's betrayal (which had happened 10 or 15 years ago and was at the bequest of Tywin, also Jamie is clearly remorseful of), Tyrion lashes out at Jamie and informs him that he killed Joffrey because Joffrey orchestrated the hit on Bran and framed him for the crime. All of this is in Jamie's point of view. And...the conversation from a character/plot perspective never made any sense. I remember being jarred by it in the books - thinking why in the heck would Jamie confess this to Tyrion now? The writer tried hard to give him a reason to confess it. Really hard. But seriously, the character was never much into bearing his heart to people and there's no way in hell he would have told Tyrion that while he was in the process of freeing him and trying to get him to trust him. He may be guilt-ridden, but there simply is no time and he's not dumb. I knew why GRRM did it in the books of course - it was to provide the reader with a resolution to what happened to Bran, and who really tried to assassinate him.
And, still in Jamie's pov, we have Jamie remembering the breakfast with Cersei and the children, where Robert Barratheon told Joffrey that Bran would be better off dead and they should just kill him to put him out of his misery. Which was why Joffrey hired the assassin. (This never quite worked for me in the books either. Felt a bit contrived and unnecessary. Also far too long after the fact, at this point, I'd forgotten about it and no longer cared.)
So, I was not surprised that the writers of the television series removed that conversation in its entirety. It's not necessary. It doesn't further the plot. You don't need it to destroy Tyrion or motivate him to kill his father. Nor do you need it to split the brother's apart -- because that wasn't really necessary for the plot or character development. Tyrion's reached rock bottom anyhow. Plus his anger at Jamie for a crime long-since done, which Jamie to be fair was upset enough about that he confessed and really wasn't responsible, was fairly out of character and a bit idiotic. Tyrion isn't 12.
Add to that, in order for it to work on the tv show- they'd have to have given us some build-up. There was none. No one, who had not read the books, had a clue who Tysha was or what had happened with her. I think Tyrion makes a vague reference to it in S1 and that's it. So that scene just doesn't make any sense. Nor is it needed to further either character's arc.
As for the resolution of the Bran bit - at this point I doubt anyone cares. And I think the writers just let it be assumed that it was Cersei or decided to leave it hanging.
Condensing that scene gave the bit with Tywin and Tyrion far greater impact. I never liked the Tyrion/Shae sequence, bit here it's more tragic and less...misogynistic.
In the book - she taunts him first, then he strangles her. Also he's more hateful about it. Tyrion is actually portrayed much darker in the books. Also he has no nose. The tv writers have been far kinder to the character.
Loved the scenes with Tyrion. Adore Peter Dinklage in this role. That scene with Tywin blew me away. Both actors at the top of their game. It was actually better than it was in the books. And they kept it the way it had been written - with Tywin on the pot.
Although, I vaguely remember Tyrion killing him with a sword not a crossbow?
* Ayra/Brienne/Hound and Podric - this felt like fanfic on the writers part. It never happened in the books. Although it was highly satisfying. I remember being annoyed in the books that Brienne never figured out that Ayra was still alive and wandering. This played out better. Also the Hound's statement to her that there is no place that is safe for Arya. "Where are you going to take her? To whom? Her mother's dead, her brother's are dead, and her Aunt is dead?" Poor Brienne, poor Hound.
And Ayra seeing Brienne - a female fighter, knight, and expert swordsman taking out Sandor Clegan with a broad sword - is rather fitting.
I adored the last scene with Ayra and The Hound...it played the same as the books, with the same level of ambiguity in it. (I'm not sure, but I thought the Hound resurfaced later with Stoneheart's group? And that point - reconnects with Brienne? If that's true, then this little bit works quite well in laying the ground work for that.)
* Bran/Jojen/Hodor/Mereen and The Children
In the books, we're first introduced to the Children by Jon Snow and Ygritte in the caves, which they cut out. Can see why - it was confusing.
We also have Bran/Jojen/Hodor/Mereen meet up with Samwell and Gilly on the far side of the Wall. He begs Sam not to tell Jon that he's alive. And through Sam meets Cold Hands and the Great Buck - which is built up in Bran's dreams and in the books over the course of several chapters. The Bran crew is attacked twice by wights, the first time Cold Hands saves them. But Cold Hands can't go to the tree and sacrifices himself to save Bran and Jojen, the second time by - I can't remember. I think Jojen does die but I can't remember how exactly. But I remember that speech - how he foresaw it but came anyhow. The whole 3 eyed raven bit didn't happen until A Dance With Dragons - so they moved that story arc forward and condensed it considerably. (Apparently this series is slated to run five-six years, so they have condensed various things.)
At any rate, I was happy with how they did it. Bran's arc and the whole cold hands bit was dull and exceedingly gross. Also really not necessary to the story as a whole.
* Stannis/Mance/Jon Snow/Davoss - this is different too. First of all, I don't think Davoos went to the wall. I think he went south instead to drum up support for Stannis and the fight at the wall. Or did he go to the Wall first and then go south? Can't remember.
Mance's wife and child aren't shown nor mentioned - so are they planning on cutting that out? Along with the baby swap between Gilly and Mance's wife? Because if so - that's huge and affects Sam, Gilly, and Jon's arcs in a major way.
Is it wrong that I was rooting for Mance? I was in the books too, actually. He has a good point - his people are no longer safe north of the wall. And honestly they aren't any more dangerous or nasty then all the people that Jon Snow and associates are protecting.
Curious how they are going to handle some of the Stannis bit next year, considering how they've changed a few things here and there.
I was never that invested in that storyline. In part because I only cared about Sam, Mance, Gilly and Maester Aemon, once they left, that was that. Jon, Stannis, Melisandre and Davvos frankly bored me - although Jon Snow did begin to grow on me on the books.
I think the writer moved Stannis up to the wall to kick some energy into that storyline.
* Jamie/Cersei - I thought he turned her down in the books - something about not wanting to have sex in the hollowed chamber and his honor? I seem to remember him casting her off?
They Jamie/Cersei sex scenes are oddly handled in this series. They played out quite differently in the novels. I did adore Cersei in this episode. Her scenes with her father were classic. Stating how she had no intention on allowing him to sacrifice another one of his children for power. And that's all he cared about. More than his children. He just cared about power and legacy.
She also proved that he'd been ignoring what they were doing - even if it was staring him in the face. Headly was wonderful in that scene as was Charles Dance - who managed to convey just the right touch of bewildered horror and pain.
* Lady Stoneheart - Interesting that they didn't do that yet. I sort of get why. It requires a bit more build up. I do believe they will do it - the writer's are far too sadistically inclined not to - and it's a fan favorite. Be a bit like not doing the Red Wedding. Also, it's sort of vital to at least two character's arcs, possibly three.
* Dany and her dragons - I remember how painful that was in the books. More so here.
Poor Dany. Poor dragons. But it was what she'd taught her children - that it was okay to kill. She's struggling with this ruling bit and with power. She's incredibly self-righteous, but hasn't figured out yet that the world is not quite as black and white as she'd like it. In this episode two bits were floated out - one : a former slave wanted to go back to his masters - to continue working, he'd been taken care of along with his family, now free - they had no where to go and nothing to eat. All they'd known was a life of servitude. two: the dragons she loved were killing humans in order to eat. Dany made huge changes without understanding everything.
Great episode. Best in a while.
In other news? Went shopping at the Atlantic Avenue Mall after work. And was sort of reminded of why I hate shopping. You can never find your size in the clothes you want and always can in the clothes you don't want. That said, did find a few things to spend money on. As luck would have it, ended up spending most of my money at Old Navy. Marshall's was a bust - their clothing sucked beans. Target not a heck of a lot better - but found a shirt and a sweater there. Uniloqu - a new trendy store exported from Japan, clearly is not for anyone over 5'4 or more than 90 pounds. Brienne of Tarth - wouldn't fit in their clothes. Shae or Arya might thought. Sansa and Gilly and Cersei? Doubtful. They only go up to size 10. Designed for tiny women. Also it's an insane store, with a lot of skin tight clothing, and branding. What is with the skin-tight styles? They look horrible on anyone who isn't aneorexic or built like a twig.
Did find a few things at Old Navy. A jeans jacket. A pair of khaki capri pants, a pair of long black slacks, a knit crew top, a sleeveless top, and a t-shirt. Also an extremely comfortable, think blanket soft, work sweater from Target.
Not a fan of the summer styles - which are clearly designed for beach going and extremely thin twenty-somethings and teens. Preferred the styles out last year.
Also, no purple. Had to really look for purple. Lots of ugly lime green, beige, yellow, and orange.
While cheaper than Lord and Taylor, L&T still has the better collection. I've jumped from a size 18W to a size 14 or 12 depending on the designer. Old Navy? 14, but it runs tight. Uniqueloq - no clue, I gave up - they are designing for women who have the same body type as Kate Moss or an adolescent boy (ie. no bust or hips or ass or long legs). Jones New York/Rafella/Ralph Lauren - 12.
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no subject
Date: 2014-06-17 02:49 am (UTC)"Although, I vaguely remember Tyrion killing him with a sword not a crossbow?"
Nope, crossbow.
"I thought the Hound resurfaced later with Stoneheart's group?"
The book is ambiguous. Most readers think he's alive, but not with Stoneheart.
"I think Jojen does die but I can't remember how exactly."
He's still alive at the end of ADWD, but he's clearly dying. The show just moved it up.
"I thought he turned her down in the books"
He did.
no subject
Date: 2014-06-17 02:17 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2014-06-17 10:16 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2014-06-17 10:23 pm (UTC)For some reason I thought it was the little valerian dagger...but crossbow makes more sense.
He's still alive at the end of ADWD, but he's clearly dying. The show just moved it up.
They managed to condense a book and a half of text into what amounts to twenty minutes. I was impressed. I kept getting bogged down in those sections.
Jojen was close to death's door at the tree - I remember that, which happened in the first part of Dance of Dragons. (I made it a quarter of a way through of Dance. May go back to it eventually - because I'm sort of curious about what happens to Dany and Jon Snow now. My favorite characters have changed slightly.)
no subject
Date: 2014-06-17 10:44 pm (UTC)The Valyrian dagger does get mentioned around this time in the books. It's when Tyrion realizes that Joffrey sent the assassin after Bran.
"I'm sort of curious about what happens to Dany and Jon Snow now."
Some very significant stuff happens to both of them. You should read, if for no other reason than that I won't have to worry about spoiling you. :)
no subject
Date: 2014-06-18 01:43 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2014-06-18 01:44 am (UTC)Oh, and I have to finish "Lord of Light by Roger Zelzany" before I jump back to A Dance with Dragons. I had the hard copy - but got rid of it, mainly because I prefer the Kindle version. The books are too thick to cart about on the subway.
no subject
Date: 2014-06-17 02:15 pm (UTC)I basically agree. It's always clunky but easier to comprehend in the book. It would seem out of left field in the show, though. And I doubt it will make any difference in plot (I always thought Tyrion's anger would've burned out before he ever ran across Jaime again, which may never happen anyway).
In part because I only cared about Sam, Mance, Gilly and Maester Aemon, once they left, that was that.
Do you know that Mance isn't dead? I mean, he may be at the end of Dance, I don't remember. But Jon and Melisendre faked Mance's execution in the first part of Dance. (Stannis should know that the problem with following a fanatic with visions about destiny is that she may switch horses when she decides someone has a bigger destiny than he does...) Anyway, Mance doesn't actually die during his execution. It's a set-up by Jon and Mel, and Mance and some other Wildlings go to Winterfell to rescue Faux-Arya for Jon. (Which then places them in Theon's plot).
I wonder whether they'll skip Mance's child and just use the threat of Shireen being sacrificed. They've hinted at danger to Shireen, and with Sam promising last episode to never leave Gilly again, they may not need an excuse for Gilly to accompany Sam to Braavos beyond "I go, she goes."
I don't remember where Davos is or what he's doing. Book!Davos bored the ever-loving crap out of me.
no subject
Date: 2014-06-17 10:16 pm (UTC)retconremedy it? Or did I miss something in Storm and Feast? Does fit the characters though.So who has Melisandre decided has a bigger destiny than Stannis? Jon?
Agreed on Davos...I kept getting bogged down in his chapters. Whenever the book started to take off - the next chapter was Davoos. Can't remember exactly what happened to him - except it seemed to happen off-page.
Yeah, you can send Sam and Gilly off together without the baby swap. But the baby swap did give Jon a dark edge, and caused a minor rift between him and Sam and Gilly. But that's admittedly not that vital to the main plot thread. Particularly since they've fast-forwarded Theon and Ramsy Snow/Bolton's storyline.
It's always clunky but easier to comprehend in the book. It would seem out of left field in the show, though. And I doubt it will make any difference in plot (I always thought Tyrion's anger would've burned out before he ever ran across Jaime again, which may never happen anyway).
This is true of a lot of sections of the book that they left out. So much of the book happens in people's heads or memories. This whole section sort of happened in flashbacks, Jamie and Tyrion flashing back on old events that were not depicted previously in the books. That's really hard to portray on screen without confusing the audience.
There's a lot of time spent on flashback or old history - which is sort of hard to convey well on screen. They could do flashbacks, but considering all the jumping around they are doing regarding location - I think they are wise to avoid it, would only confuse the audience.