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shadowkat[ETA: This thing has a bunch of typos, some rather funny actually, and needs editing. But no time to do it right now. Have to eat breakfast, then hop off to lunch, and see a play with the Aunts, busy, busy.]
In regards to the question above? Not that much. I rather hate exposition, writing it and listening to it. Beginnings and endings of narratives, I suck at as both reader and writer, with few exceptions. Much prefer the middle, thank you very much.
Anyhow..I took a lovely walk on a lovely day up to the comic store, then to the Brooklyn Heights Promenade to sit and take in the view. The sky was cloudless and that robins egg blue that shimmers. Perfect temperature too. Just the right bit of breeze rippling through the leaves behind me (yes, there are actual trees with leaves on them in Brooklyn), and the sun warm and stroking. Plus the city before me in all its splendor. From my vantage point - I could see the statute of Liberty, Manhattan Island with it's tall buildings of glass and steel, and the Brooklyn Bridge. The river below, the cars humming just above the river, and the people walking their dogs in front of me.
But before that, I made it to the comic book store. Was somewhat disappointed - because had a hankering for a bit of my favorite character, written by my favorite comic book writer of the moment.
Comic shop boy to comic shop girl: Want to finish my fries? My stomach can't handle them. I'm gonna burst. My eyes were bigger than my stomach.
Me (grinning, while aimlessly searching for Spike comic - which I thought was coming out in Oct.): I get that. Same thing happens to me all the time. (I glance back at comic book shop boy, who is hardly a boy, since he has a full growth of beard. Glasses. Big belly. Black T-shirt. Your basic stereotype.)
[Giving up, I wander back with my selections - Buffy issue 37, Angel #37 (because Spike actually has some great bits of dialogue and it focuses almost entirely on the Spike/Angel relationship and I'm a sucker for the Spike/Angel relationship. Note I do not ship them the way most fans do, I ship them the same way I ship Damon/Stefan and Dean/Sam - I have a weakness for anything about brothers because I have a love/hate relationship with my own. Sort of how some people are obsessed with sister relationships or father relationships? I'm obsessed with brother relationships.)and True Blood (because it features Tara's backstory, and I like Tara, also a bit on Eric's back story.]
Me: Any news on the Spike comic by Lynch.
Comic book shop boy: I wouldn't know. But you could always go to the con this weekend and ask them.
Me: No, I'm going to a play instead. Plus not a really a fan of cons. I can just go online and find out.
Comic shop boy ("CSB") tries to make a pun on online vs. waiting on line - which doesn't quite work.
Me - suddenly confronted with an astonding, and I mean astounding wall filled with Buffy and Angel action figures. Never seen so many in one spot and right behind the comic desk in my life. :Wow, that's a lot of Buffy action figures.
CSB (as if noticing them for the first time): Yep. Hey, there's one of Buffy and Angel getting married - do you want that?
ME: Eww. No. Why would anyone want that? (oops did I say that aloud? Checks blank faces.)
Comic Shop Girl: Actually I think it's the prom, see all the tiny fake balloons.
CSB: Buffy and Angel went to the Prom?
ME: Yep, believe it or not they actually did.
CSB: What gets me is how his arms are sticking out like he's asking, what the heck am I doing here.
Me: actually I think he had that pose in the show.
Comic Book Shop Girl - who pops up out of nowhere and is stick thin (apparently she doesn't like to eat and works all the time): We were discussing how neither of us ever really watched this show.
Me: Well, it's not everyone's cup of tea...I had to go online to find people who liked it. (These conversations always get uncomfortable, there is a reason I don't talk about Buffy offline, people look at me as if I've lost my mind. A fascination in Bones they understand or even Star Trek, Buffy not so much.)
CSG: No, I'm sure it was fine, I just never had any time to watch it was always working.
Me: Well you can catch it on Hulu or netflix or even Lola now.
CSG looks at me as if I'm speaking some foreign language. Then says: Well I did catch one episode it was towards the last season, when Willow broke up with her lover.
Me: You mean Tara?
CSG: no it was some guy named OZ.
Me: That was season 4.
CSG: Oh. And it was so weird, she got all crazy and did this spell, none of it made sense.
CSB: I loved the movie - it was campy fun. But the tv show just didn't work, Seth Green plays this werewolf but when turns into a werewolf he runs in the opposite direction of the people - hey man that's your food, why are you running away from them. It makes no sense.
Me: You can't exactly apply logic to it. You also have Angel action figures, in fact every character appears to be up there except for...
CSB: Spike. We don't have any Spike for some reason, we never do. He's apparently the most popular.
ME: He was the only one they actually developed and gave a full arc to.
CSB: They gave Angel his own show.
ME: But like most leads, he never really got developed or an arc, all the supporting characters got the true arc. He'd be better off as supporting.
CSB: It's the Joey syndrom.
CSG and Me confused: Huh.
Me: You mean Joey from Friends?
CSB: Yep, great show but spin-off doesn't work.
Me: No that wasn't quite it. Angel was actually a good show...
Sigh. I finally ended the conversation and wandered off to the promenade to read the Buffy comic.
But you had to have seen that wall. Never seen so many Buffy action figures in my life.
Now that just about everyone and their brother has done a review of this thing, thought I'd add my two cents to the pot, what the hell. Since I've read most of the other reviews - I'll avoid repeating too much of what they said. (The most memorable to date are stormwreath, 2maggie2 (who does a riff on how this is all a metaphor on the writing process) and angeria. With IGN as the most critical.
Warning - the below will include snark, which may or may not offend (one can never know). This is just my opinion, it's not gospel folks. Don't take anything I write here personally. I'm just sharing with you how I read it and part of my enjoyment is making ribald fun of it. The snark will most likely be in the same viene as prior posts on the topic, its not that over-the-top and there's a lot more analysis than I thought I'd give. It's behind a cut-tag for length. Feel free to link - but anyone who follows the link - please be careful of your blood-pressure and mine. It's just a comic book after all.
Apparently the editors still haven't caught the error on the blurb on the cover page. Spike's still a former vampire. But what the hey, who reads these blurbs anyway? I almost skipped it. Also, the editor of the comic is now the writer. Interesting. No one has done that before.
The exposition bit is actually Buffy and Spike talking for what I'm guessing is the first time in about two years? Let's see we've done Buffy and Xander in the first oh, 20 issues - actually they jumped around on that one, it didn't end until issue 33 or thereabouts (if Xander had declared his love for Buffy instead of Dawn, would we have gotten Twuffy in issue 34? If not, this is all Dawn's fault (joking)). Buffy and Satsu (that took about ten issues), Buffy and Riley (off-stage and barely focused on outside of Buffy dressing up for him and Angel (excuse me Twangel) snarking about it, then Riley telling her that she was one hell of a woman and how proud he was of her (again) - you guys think you got it rough, B/R shippers just got Xander stating it was the best relationship she had.), Buffy and Angel (that basically consisted of a lot of fighting, shagging (my eyes! my eyes! I could have lived without seeing that...and I thought watching the two naked men arm wrestling in Borat was bad), and some worst dialogue written this side of the Pecos. Now we get Buffy and Spike - which so far, is reminding me a great deal of Buffy and Xander up to and including Turbulence, except Spike wasn't smart enough to actually move on and get a girlfriend. (Speaking of, where is Illyria?)
I do like their banter. But then I've always liked their banter. I like banter. I hate angst. Angst is boring and whiny. Banter is entertaining and makes me laugh. It's a thing.
Buffy: I can't believe you have hot water on this thing. (shouldn't be that surprised, he had it in his crypt, I'm guessing, Spike is anything if not resourceful unlike some other people I won't mention). Also side-bar, what is this thing?
Spike: Tale for another time, pet. (If you read the Lynch comics - you will find out Buffy. Granted you'd have to hop dimensions, but still. I've decided that the IDW comics exist in one dimension and the Dark Horse comics exist in another dimension.)We've got to focus on what's ahead.
Buffy: What's ahead is what should be behind. Suckydale.
Spike: Home again, home again...
Buffy: Jiggedy jig (yes she finishes his sentences, they have the same knowledge of pop culture and the same quippy sense of humor - adding to the fun banter. If her conversations were this interesting with Angel, I might have stayed awake during their romantic scenes on the show and in the comics.) What's the seed of wonder and why is it there? (Good question. Wonder if we'll get an answer? She's drying her hair by the way. The art in this portion is actually quite detailed and rather good. Surprisingly so. He even got Spike's raised and scarred eyebrow. (and ouch, having had that happen to me, you have headaches in that spot for the rest of your life). )
Spike (who has apparently become a watcher now - after threatening to become one in Xander's dream in Restless. Actually this whole bit is not out of character. Spike was well on his way to becoming Buffy's Watcher or source of critical information around Fool for Love - where he tells her more about slayers than Giles ever has, and their relationship to vampires.): It's always been there. Before you, before humans...before the First, even, which has a nice irony. (Then why haven't we ever heard of it before? This reminds me of the whole scythe back-story in S7. )
Buffy: And it is? (yes, really, get to the point already!)
Spike: Just what the name implies. (Sigh, writers and their magnmucnmuffins - that's what George Lucas calls it - the funky item that the writer has created for the characters to hunt - which will save or destroy the world. If done well, it's something we've heard of before like the arc of the covenant, but in Whedon's shows, it is usually some bizarre thing we haven't. At any rate they always think the magnmucmuffin (sp? I have no idea) is obvious to the reader and they don't have to explain it. OR they don't care to explain it, because it's just a plot device.) The source of all the magic in the world. ( And we didn't know about this before, because? You'd think someone would have happened upon it. Then again, maybe not. The characters seem to take for granted much like the audience that there's all this weird magic that pops up out of nowhere. Anyhow, will give Whedon credit - the explanation does sound a bit obvious. On the other hand Seed of Wonder can mean a lot of things. Of course Spike, being a writer and a poet, sees the metaphors in everything - what's obvious to Spike may not be obvious to anyone else.)
Spike continues with the exposition - which feels like a twist on Giles speech in Welcome to the Hellmouth, and the demon's speech in Fray. It's also Whedon's way of cobbling Buffy and Fray together into one timeline. He did the same thing in S7 - with the scythe. I liked Fray by itself. I don't like how Whedon has frayed (pun intended) his original story in order to make a half-interesting and somewhat obscure comic book make sense.
Anyhow it's not that complicated. Basically the seed created the world, and it was all magic, demons, etc...but the seed didn't create the demons - just brought them over from another dimension. Then being a nice little seed - chose for reasons that aren't quite explained, kept the demons and monsters here. Kept them from seeping back into that old dimension from whence they came. (I'm guessing someone else created the seed and used it to get rid of all the nasties on their world by creating a new world - earth and sending them all there. Hey, it's hardly a new concept. Don't like your garbag? Find another dimension, throw it all there, let them deal with it, and walk away.) "Now the earth was an improvement, a step up or it was a ghetto" (guessing a ghetto, because why would you throw all your unwanted nasties somewhere nice? Then again, maybe it was a demon who created the seed, found a new dimension and used the seed to bring its entire race there, because its old dimension was falling apart? Both explanations are plausible, I guess). At any rate the earth's on its own and the seed the source of it all - is the only thing powerful enough to keep it from bleeding back. (Alright, I don't know about you, but I'm confused. They missed a step in there somewhere. Apparently the seed brought the demons to earth, then..what exactly? Bottled them up in another dimension on earth? Or are they co-existing on earth? I'm guessing they are co-existing? Because, hello, we have had demons long before the whole Twilight mess. These are the earth demons. The new demons - or nasties are the new dimensions demons - which the seed is supposed to be keeping out while keeping the earth demons in? OR is the old dimension earth, and...Whedon? You suck at exposition. You are worse than I am. Just saying.)
Anyhow...Buffy finally gets the point as do we. IF you pop the cork or remove the seed, the world as we know it goes by, and the new universe takes its place. And it would have stayed that way if Buffy hadn't decided to go boink Angel. Just as Angel would never have become evil and sent the world to hell in a hand-basket if she hadn't boinked him back in S2. Buffy? Do you ever learn?
Buffy now decides to explain to Spike (and us by extension) why she boinked Angel. "It wasn't like we were out of control - though we kind of were...it was like (a drunken binge?) Elemental. Like we were outside ourselves, in each other, like we were the wind that swept us up. (sigh, sex, so overrated. Basically you got carried away by your hormones and had an oragasmic experience. We get it. It's not that earth shattering Buffy. Or that interesting. Basically it is physical love without the intellect or mind. Two animals frakking. Except when animals do it the world doesn't get shredded as a result.)
Spike: Can you think of a single creature on any plane of existence that wants to hear this less? (actually quite a few, including yours truly, and well Xander, Riley, and Giles for starters. And Buffy wonders why Riley left her or Xander gave up on her and went for Dawn. OR Spike for that matter chose not to tell her he was alive. Jeeze. It's not like they didn't have to watch it after all. Plus deal with the consequences. Next time you do this - can you go to a hell dimension first? Save so much time.)
Buffy: I'm sorry (yeah right). I'm still feeling...(the buzz?) Like something got switched on and I don't know how to turn it off (basically you are horny as all get out). I really shouldn't be telling you that but..but you were the guy I told the things I wasn't supposed to tell. You're my dark place, Spike. (Gee, what a nice thing to tell a guy who went and got a soul and changed his ways to become a better man. Batting a thousand here, Buffster. Although I suppose I get the metaphor, Spike - Buffy could tell all her deep dark secrets to, and he told her his, because she knew he'd love her no matter what. He'd never judge her harshly, he'd be honest. While Xander - she confided all her hopes and dreams to. In short, she was best friends with Spike and Xander. Yet, for some reason she thinks she is in love with a guy she can't have a conversation with? As I'm writing this, it is worth noting that Buffy is currently daydreaming about Spike taking her into his arms and kissing her. Not going to happen, why would he do that? Let's think about this for a second, if you saw your ex-boyfriend/girlfriend boinking a rival (someone you had a long-standing rivalry with) and then listened to them go on about it, would you want to kiss or be nice to them? Heck Buffy couldn't handle seeing Spike boink Anya fully clothed on video at the magic box, after they split up, after she told him it was over, and after he apologized and said he felt nothing for Anya and he and Anya were just trying to deal with their mutual pain. Yet here she is, right after boinking Angel and telling Angel how great he is, fantasizing about Spike and flirting with Spike. Talk about double-standards. Buffy, you are definitely your father's daughter. )
Spike (is attempting to give us more exposition. Personally I prefer the kissing sequence and the insight into Buffy's head. But the explanation would have been nice too.) : No wonder Giles said you were a crap student.
[What I find interesting in the comparison study of Spike and Angel? Is that Angel is depicted in a manner that is similar to Hank Summers - Buffy can't talk to Hank. Hank takes her ice-skating. She swoons in his presence. He has another family. And he is out of her reach, unknowable. While Spike is increasingly depicted in a manner similar to Giles - present in her life, not out of reach, knowable, and informative. Loves her unconditionally. And is always there. Buffy yearns for Hank, yet it is Giles who is her father in all the ways that count. Just as she yearns for Angel, but it is Spike who is her partner in all the ways that count. Fascinating. The plot sucks beans, but the psychological metaphors that are piled on are nice and chewy - well if you are like me and a frustrated psychologist/english lit major.]
Spike: Yeah, no mystery who you were thinking about.
Buffy (who is struggling to keep up, because her fantasy has discombobulated her a bit, she doesn't appear to know what to do with her feelings for Spike, they don't make sense to her. Her feelings for Angel are simple. But Spike confuses her.): No mystery (liar). Already solved (you wish). Let's go back just a teeny bit. (what were you saying? How can we stop the world from being destroyed ? - It's interesting that Buffy's romantic fantasies keep getting in the way of obtaining crucial info on saving the world. In the past saving the world got in the way of the romance, now the romance is getting in the way of saving the world. The dichotomy is interesting.
And it explains another metaphor that I just figured out tonight. The Chain or Buffy double underground is stranded, alone, fighting demons, trying to save the world, while Buffy double above ground in Rome is having an amazing romance with the Immortal, shagging him, not a care in the world. Romance vs. Life. Being alone and saving others vs. having someone and not helping anyone. All Buffy's life it has been an either/or scenario. She can't have both. She's either the slayer - alone, underground, buried in the muck or the normal girl at the dance kissing the boy, while kids die around her. At least that's how she feels. It's not true, but in her head it is.)
Spike brushes her off, annoyed. He's had enough Bangle for a lifetime. States, much like Giles would - he's in full "Watcher" mode, at the moment - "Why don't we get you into bed?" It's what a father might say or Giles might say. But Buffy thinks of Spike in another way, her head goes right to sex. And she's flustered.
Poor Dawn. I can identify. Although if I had to choose between giant cockroaches running a ship and spiders, I'd pick the cockroaches (plus easier to draw, I suspect). Why Whedon chose to have the ship piloted by cockroaches I have no idea. Is this some sort of reference to Spike as the cellar dweller? Spike's always being associated with Bugs in this show...and not all that effectively. First it's the bugs in As You Were, then the Egyptian Beetles that clean him out, somewhat painfully in Grave (that must have been fun to act). Rather like Xander in this scene (I mean I like Xander notthat Xander is similar to Spike). But, sorry, Dawn's toast. Xander basically jinxed it - just as he jinxed his relationships with Anya and Renee...the boy never learns. "Assuming we survive (assuming Dawn survives) and I assume (probably not a good idea) we could get an apartment (talk about wishful thinking). Just us - not a hundred slayers (don't worry there probably will be a lot less than that by the time this is over). You could go back to school (where exactly?), I'd get work (doing what? Carpentry? I suppose you could do security?) Support us - in barely above poverty line style - too much too soon? (yep, you just jinxed yourself, you idiot.).
It's a touching scene, made more touching by the guy with the moustach watching them. This is the General in case you were wondering. I have no idea what he is up to. But I'm guessing when the whole seed story comes out, he's going to be in favor of smashing it. I would be if I were him. It's a heck of a lot easier to fight vampires and slayers, with magic gone from the world. Besides, I think that was his agenda from the get-go.
We jump to Angel now - attempting to save the world from the billions of new demons that he conspired to let loose in it by powering up Buffy then shagging her brains out. (Literally, she has no brains now. Just a horny little thing. But then neither does Angel apparently. Not that either were especially brainy to begin with.) The writers are showing me this in an attempt to make me feel sympathy for Angel or think he can be redeemed? I'm sorry, but it is not working. You are going to have to do a lot more than have him fly about and fight demons. That actually looks like fun.
Back to Spike and the gang. Spike tells everyone what he told Buffy, but we don't have to hear it - yay us. They apparently understand this plot-line about as well as we do. God isn't supposed to make sense or loopy writers who like to change places with their editors for that matter.
Giles: I just don't see how I didn't realize this before (possibly because up until now it didn't exist, because the writer/god didn't come up with it until now?)
Willow: You had a lot of prophecies to sort through, it's understandable. (Interesting how a professed athesist and existentialist loves to create multiple prophecies. Personally, I think he enjoys making fun of them.)
Spike amusingly uses the same metaphor with Xander (who unlike Buffy is more concerned about things like how does Spike know any of this? )
Spike: Three words little man (why is Jeanty drawing Spike as taller than Xander or the same height? Is Spike wearing lifts in this comic? Or did Jeanty not get the fact that Xander is 6 foot and Spike is 5'8? Or possibly 5'5, it's hard to tell.) I speak Fyarl. (Apparently Fyarl demons are smarter than we thought. OR just savvy to the whole seed thing. You don't need to be smart to know about the seed, just old and into self-preservation. And they are guns for hire, which means they've probably been hired to protect it before. We've been told that the demons on this plain of existence don't want to be kicked off of it. Don't blame them. Or share it with the new demons. Hard enough just sharing it with the humans. Now if they were bright - they'd join up with the humans and fight the new demons. But they aren't. The demons on this plain not wanting the seed pulled out is according to Spike -and is one of the things they have in their favor.)
Xander: But that doesn't expl (anything? No, it doesn't. But this is Whedon telling you it doesn't matter...just go with the flow. Xander is basically Allie and Jeanty, quibbling, and Spike is Whedon.)
At this point Willow falls into Aliwuyn's world, because Aliwuyn (the snake lady) needs to provide the other bit of exposition that Spike doesn't know about. (Hmmm - all our exposition is provided by the trickster characters, Aliwuyn (Willow's version of Spike, I guess) and Spike. Except Aliwuyn is depicted on a nice magical plain, which reminds me of the Twilight verse. It's not Twilight's verse - just reminds me of it.
Anyhow, Ali (getting tired of trying to spell the other), tells Willow that if you smash the seed - all magic goes by-bye, which means goodbye to your witchcraft, to me, and well all the other things that are magical and aren't vampires and slayers. If you remove it - then they are swallowed by a hell dimension (sort of like in Season 2 with Acathla - this is the problem with fantasy, people come up with names for things that I can't pronounce or remember how to spell.)
Personally, I don't see the problem here. So you lose your magic Will's. Deal. It's better than having to fight demons all the time. Ali states - "your world would lose something it doesn't know it needs.." (okay obvious metaphor for imagination - which was done in the Marvel comics back in the 80s with more or less the exact same speech. ) "It's not only Twilight you have to stop Willow." And we are getting back to the two villians or big bads...there have always been two, in every season. There's the human one and the demonic one. Here the two villians are Angel and the General. The General represents the humans who want an end to magic, to this power, and a normal world that they can control. Angel wanted Twilight - a new universe, a higher plain to take over.
Angel's all about changing the world and everyone around him to atone for his sins, but never himself. He needs to take a page from old Leo Tolstoy - "everybody thinks they need to change humanity, never themselves.".
And now, we get the big plot-twist that everyone is speculating on and I personally don't think is that big a deal. Willow: "Buffy had a vision that someone close would betray here. You know who it is, don't you?"
I'm guessing it's Xander. But I'm also guessing it doesn't matter. Because Buffy has already betrayed everyone by sleeping with TwAngel and bringing about the apocalypse, again. If at first you don't succeed...Okay, I've changed my mind. Buffy shouldn't have staked Angel in S1, she should have castrated him - it would have solved so many problems. (Assuming of course it didn't grow back, one never knows with vampires. So maybe not?) At any rate, I know this much - whatever happens is going to cause what created the Frayverse. Basically Buffy sealing herself off in another dimension. S9 will be the fallout from that and people attempting to free her. Now, how that happens? As convoluted as this story has become? I'm guessing what will happen is the General will talk either Dawn or Xander into smashing the seed. Xander may end up getting talked into doing it after Dawn gets killed. There's a reason we have the General eavesdropping on them. This would no doubt cause Buffy to get sealed in the new universe - Willow may push her, who knows. But Willow clearly feels guilty about it in the future, or maybe guilt is the wrong word. Is bitter about it? Don't really know or care that much to be honest. Although I am curious - I do want to see how this story ends. Come this far...
And we hop back to Angel - to see how bad things are (they are pretty bad, demons popping up everywhere, more demons than humans - see humans this is what happens when you trust a crazy vampire with a god complex). Angel's trying to help, and getting off on it apparently. So no, not convincing me this guy is redeemable. He looks like he's having a blast."Buffy's right! I do need this!"
Meanwhile Giles and Faith are discussing something. No clue what exactly. I'm guessing what Spike told everyone. Since Giles says they have to locate the seed. The problem with how Faith is drawn is sometimes she looks a lot like Dawn. Jeanty is better with Spike and Buffy. Granted we don't see Faith and Giles that often, so he may just be rusty.
Faith is annoyed by it all. Don't blame her. She feels as if they are all off course. And wants to help the girls. Faith has redeemed herself. Unlike Angel, Faith has actually changed and grown. (except when she looks like Dawn) She changed herself, did the work. She may be the most evolved next to Spike.
Giles appears to be asking Faith to do something else, that's she's not so keen on. Their interaction reminds me of No Future for You - with Gigi. Is he asking her to betray Buffy? To do what must be done to save the world? To step in?
Spike pops up and looks a lot like Andrew...although that is admittedly a tough posture to draw. And it is an Andrew moment - he's awed by what he did to Sunnydale. (Actually what the amulet that Angel gave him did - and his soul, so I guess you could say what his soul did?)
They all go to the hellmouth. Buffy first, with Spike hanging on for dear life onto her waist, in much the same position Buffy used to have when Willow took her on similar flights. Except Buffy's horny and says - Spike's touching my butt. Honey, is that all you can think about? You are worse than a guy. Granted if Spike were holding onto my waist for dear life, I'd be thinking much the same thing, but then I'd have shagged Spike, and staked TwAngel. So...
Xander insists Will teleport all them to Sunnydale. Xander? You are going to regret that decision.
There's a fight scene with the Master. Buffy defeats him. Actually it's not the Master. No one calls him that. He just sort of looks like him. They call him the Protector. Who thinks little of this new universe that she created with Angel. The Protector is confused to see Spike and not Angel, and thinks they are fighting to take the seed. (By the way, the whole The destroyer, the protector, etc bit reminds me of Ghostbusters. I keep expecting to see the Stovetop Marshmellow Puff Man walking around.)
Back to Angel - who is tired and not having fun any more. The world is shredded. Yes, Angel you just cause one apocalypse after another. Twilight shows up and reveals to Angel that he/she/it (people call it a she, but honestly? I can't tell.) is not the PTB but rather the new universe. It showed up in the past to manipulate him into bringing it to life, sort of like Jasmine did with Connor. Angel you really need to stop reading shanshu prophecies. Seriously, is it just me or is Angel constantly being used as a stud or sperm donor by the PTB? As Cordy once said - why does the PTB keep wanting to knock me up? Good question. First we have the convoluted Darla/Connor/Cordelia/Jasmine plot - which actually made more sense than this one does. Possibly because Tim Minear and David Greenwalt were half-way involved in the plotting? Now we have the even more convoluted Angel/Buffy/Twilight plot. Angel's like that dumb jock who just keeps getting the ditzy cheerleader preggers, except their kids want to destroy the world.
The kid shows up looking like Aslan from The Chronicles of Narnia - making me think that somebody has been reading those books to their kids and has gotten sick of them, and taken a page from Philip K. Pullman, deciding to turn the kindly Aslan (aka God) from Narnia into an destructive force. Although I wouldn't call it evil - it just wants to survive.
"But I'm here now, Father. You can't deny the universe you created."
Jeeze. Poor Angel, he just can't get away from reliving that scenario, can he? That's the same line he told his own father before he tore his throat out. "I'm here now, Father. You can't deny the man that you had a hand in creating. I'm the monster you made me." Which in turn is the same line Connor throws in Angel's face. And the same line, Jasmine does. And for that matter, Spike. Angel, face it, dude, you have turned into your father except a hell of a lot worse.
Angel really needs to stop creating things or trying to control or change things. He keeps repeating the same mistakes. And something tells me a simple mindwipe ain't gonna make it all better.
What do you think Angel's going to do? Well, if past history is any indication - probably aid the new universe. Angel learn from his mistakes?
My difficulty with the comics is that while Angel is technically speaking in character, they have simplified him to such an extent that all I see are the things I despise about the character. I actually did enjoy the Angel series and found the character interesting. That wasn't David Boreanze, if it was, I would like Bones and I don't. No, that character was complex, and multi-faceated. Here - he's been reduced to a metaphor or allegory. He's basically Daddy issues personified.
Which brings me to the lengthy and rather ironic letter and exchange with Allie at the back of this issue. Making me wonder how people think. Allie admits in response to the letter that he screwed up by engaging in the Angel vs. Spike wars. (You think? But hey, no worries, you are hardly the first writer to do this...Fury and Noxon did the same thing and have the bruises to prove it.) I don't understand why writers, particularly writers of soap operas and comic book serials can't figure out that there will be vehement fan rivaleries and as a writer, to take one side or the other is the kiss of death. I mean there have been ship wars since the 1800s. I read recently how Louisa May Alcott had to deal with rabid fans writing her letters on the lead character Joe marrying Laurie and not the Professor. (Joe married the Professor, Laurie married her younger sister Amy, people were not happy.) And all you have to do is go to a daytime soap opera fanboard to see ship wars that will make your eyes bleed. It's par for the course. Heck, the X-men - had them. There was a huge fracas over whether Jean should be with Scott or Wolverine. She ended up with both of them at one point or another. This is part of the territory. The letter and response hit me as ironic - because the letter writer is upset with how Spike and Spuffy are being treated in contrast to Angel and Bangle, and the responder states all I said is we're not going to say Buffy loves Spike more than Angel, but we are treating their relationship with respect (meaning Spike/Buffy). This is ironic, because the relationship that has been repeatedly bashed in the comic and the character that is being repeatedly bashed is Angel and Bangel. They are not treating that relationship with any respect whatsoever. (I can't speak for the fanboards, but fanboards and writer interviews are distractions. As Whedon aptly stated - judge the story on the page, not what the teller says about it.) It's obvious to me that the writers and artist is mocking the Bangel romantic relationship - to such an extent, that I found it offensive at different points and I'm by no means a Bangel shipper, but I was once upon a time. If I were a Bangel shipper now? I wouldn't want to read this. And all the Bangel shippers that are on my mutual friends list? They aren't. Or if they are, are upset about it. If they aren't reading it? They never will. They would hate how Angel is being depicted here. The ones who are Angel fans and are reading them? Hate how he is depicted and feel they don't even recognize him. So I'm guessing the writer and editor is probably looking at the letter and the Spike fans and thinking, WTF? There's a disconnect here, I think. The story isn't going to end on romantic note - the writers are NOT romantics.
And it's clear to me that Buffy is going to end up alone and possibly in a hell dimension as she fears. It's forshadowed in all her dreams and nightmares. It's her deepest fear. And as such her self-fulfilling prophecy. There's alot of self-fulfilling prophecy going on here. The Buffy/Spike relationship is a tragic one - because once again Buffy screwed it up. Not that Spike did not play a role in that. And who knows what would have happened if he showed up before Angel had?
To me, the comics are a bit of a chaotic mess - plotwise and metaphorwise. The writer is trying to do far too many things at once, and none of them well. But they are entertaining. I agree with the IGN reviewer on this. Pacing is bad. In some respects the comics remind of a daytime soap opera such as Passions. The plot isn't based on logic so much as well emotion. It's like a fever dream. A very longwinded fever dream. With better editing - this might have been good. I can see why people who love chewy metaphors are excited by it. It has an abundance of chewy metaphor and subtext. If you are a poet, you may well be in heaven. If you read things more literally, you may not be. Hard to say, people are impossible to pigeon hole.
I see multiple metaphors here. The political one about creating a better world by destroying the old one, only to discover the new one is even worse - or a morality tale on abuses of power. The romantic one - or fable - about how giving into idealized romance...leads to nothing. Love comes first and foremost from like minds and friendship. If you can't trust your lover with your dreams and your nightmares, than he has no business being your lover. And the creative metaphor - of playing god with one's characters, this does double service metaphysically. And finally, the psychological one - about growing up, letting go, and moving on. There's a lot here, but it is confusing and muddled. And there's little time to unmuddle it. Campy and silly? Sure. But after discussing the tv series with the comic shop people - it occurs to me that that was always the case. If it weren't I wouldn't be so embarrassed to discuss it with people. And the plot lines were never clear or logical. Buffy was always a soap opera. A supernatural soap opera with lots of action, but still a soap opera, with all the flaws and foibles of that genre.
The comic book at times reminds me of some of the girl magna books that I've seen. Lots of sex. Lots of sexual fantasizing and romantic entanglements. Also a lot of male moralizing about what it means to be female and about female sexuality. And no, they don't get it. At all.
But this is getting long and it is time for bed. Also not as snarky as I thought it would be. Odd that. But oh well.
In regards to the question above? Not that much. I rather hate exposition, writing it and listening to it. Beginnings and endings of narratives, I suck at as both reader and writer, with few exceptions. Much prefer the middle, thank you very much.
Anyhow..I took a lovely walk on a lovely day up to the comic store, then to the Brooklyn Heights Promenade to sit and take in the view. The sky was cloudless and that robins egg blue that shimmers. Perfect temperature too. Just the right bit of breeze rippling through the leaves behind me (yes, there are actual trees with leaves on them in Brooklyn), and the sun warm and stroking. Plus the city before me in all its splendor. From my vantage point - I could see the statute of Liberty, Manhattan Island with it's tall buildings of glass and steel, and the Brooklyn Bridge. The river below, the cars humming just above the river, and the people walking their dogs in front of me.
But before that, I made it to the comic book store. Was somewhat disappointed - because had a hankering for a bit of my favorite character, written by my favorite comic book writer of the moment.
Comic shop boy to comic shop girl: Want to finish my fries? My stomach can't handle them. I'm gonna burst. My eyes were bigger than my stomach.
Me (grinning, while aimlessly searching for Spike comic - which I thought was coming out in Oct.): I get that. Same thing happens to me all the time. (I glance back at comic book shop boy, who is hardly a boy, since he has a full growth of beard. Glasses. Big belly. Black T-shirt. Your basic stereotype.)
[Giving up, I wander back with my selections - Buffy issue 37, Angel #37 (because Spike actually has some great bits of dialogue and it focuses almost entirely on the Spike/Angel relationship and I'm a sucker for the Spike/Angel relationship. Note I do not ship them the way most fans do, I ship them the same way I ship Damon/Stefan and Dean/Sam - I have a weakness for anything about brothers because I have a love/hate relationship with my own. Sort of how some people are obsessed with sister relationships or father relationships? I'm obsessed with brother relationships.)and True Blood (because it features Tara's backstory, and I like Tara, also a bit on Eric's back story.]
Me: Any news on the Spike comic by Lynch.
Comic book shop boy: I wouldn't know. But you could always go to the con this weekend and ask them.
Me: No, I'm going to a play instead. Plus not a really a fan of cons. I can just go online and find out.
Comic shop boy ("CSB") tries to make a pun on online vs. waiting on line - which doesn't quite work.
Me - suddenly confronted with an astonding, and I mean astounding wall filled with Buffy and Angel action figures. Never seen so many in one spot and right behind the comic desk in my life. :Wow, that's a lot of Buffy action figures.
CSB (as if noticing them for the first time): Yep. Hey, there's one of Buffy and Angel getting married - do you want that?
ME: Eww. No. Why would anyone want that? (oops did I say that aloud? Checks blank faces.)
Comic Shop Girl: Actually I think it's the prom, see all the tiny fake balloons.
CSB: Buffy and Angel went to the Prom?
ME: Yep, believe it or not they actually did.
CSB: What gets me is how his arms are sticking out like he's asking, what the heck am I doing here.
Me: actually I think he had that pose in the show.
Comic Book Shop Girl - who pops up out of nowhere and is stick thin (apparently she doesn't like to eat and works all the time): We were discussing how neither of us ever really watched this show.
Me: Well, it's not everyone's cup of tea...I had to go online to find people who liked it. (These conversations always get uncomfortable, there is a reason I don't talk about Buffy offline, people look at me as if I've lost my mind. A fascination in Bones they understand or even Star Trek, Buffy not so much.)
CSG: No, I'm sure it was fine, I just never had any time to watch it was always working.
Me: Well you can catch it on Hulu or netflix or even Lola now.
CSG looks at me as if I'm speaking some foreign language. Then says: Well I did catch one episode it was towards the last season, when Willow broke up with her lover.
Me: You mean Tara?
CSG: no it was some guy named OZ.
Me: That was season 4.
CSG: Oh. And it was so weird, she got all crazy and did this spell, none of it made sense.
CSB: I loved the movie - it was campy fun. But the tv show just didn't work, Seth Green plays this werewolf but when turns into a werewolf he runs in the opposite direction of the people - hey man that's your food, why are you running away from them. It makes no sense.
Me: You can't exactly apply logic to it. You also have Angel action figures, in fact every character appears to be up there except for...
CSB: Spike. We don't have any Spike for some reason, we never do. He's apparently the most popular.
ME: He was the only one they actually developed and gave a full arc to.
CSB: They gave Angel his own show.
ME: But like most leads, he never really got developed or an arc, all the supporting characters got the true arc. He'd be better off as supporting.
CSB: It's the Joey syndrom.
CSG and Me confused: Huh.
Me: You mean Joey from Friends?
CSB: Yep, great show but spin-off doesn't work.
Me: No that wasn't quite it. Angel was actually a good show...
Sigh. I finally ended the conversation and wandered off to the promenade to read the Buffy comic.
But you had to have seen that wall. Never seen so many Buffy action figures in my life.
Now that just about everyone and their brother has done a review of this thing, thought I'd add my two cents to the pot, what the hell. Since I've read most of the other reviews - I'll avoid repeating too much of what they said. (The most memorable to date are stormwreath, 2maggie2 (who does a riff on how this is all a metaphor on the writing process) and angeria. With IGN as the most critical.
Warning - the below will include snark, which may or may not offend (one can never know). This is just my opinion, it's not gospel folks. Don't take anything I write here personally. I'm just sharing with you how I read it and part of my enjoyment is making ribald fun of it. The snark will most likely be in the same viene as prior posts on the topic, its not that over-the-top and there's a lot more analysis than I thought I'd give. It's behind a cut-tag for length. Feel free to link - but anyone who follows the link - please be careful of your blood-pressure and mine. It's just a comic book after all.
Apparently the editors still haven't caught the error on the blurb on the cover page. Spike's still a former vampire. But what the hey, who reads these blurbs anyway? I almost skipped it. Also, the editor of the comic is now the writer. Interesting. No one has done that before.
The exposition bit is actually Buffy and Spike talking for what I'm guessing is the first time in about two years? Let's see we've done Buffy and Xander in the first oh, 20 issues - actually they jumped around on that one, it didn't end until issue 33 or thereabouts (if Xander had declared his love for Buffy instead of Dawn, would we have gotten Twuffy in issue 34? If not, this is all Dawn's fault (joking)). Buffy and Satsu (that took about ten issues), Buffy and Riley (off-stage and barely focused on outside of Buffy dressing up for him and Angel (excuse me Twangel) snarking about it, then Riley telling her that she was one hell of a woman and how proud he was of her (again) - you guys think you got it rough, B/R shippers just got Xander stating it was the best relationship she had.), Buffy and Angel (that basically consisted of a lot of fighting, shagging (my eyes! my eyes! I could have lived without seeing that...and I thought watching the two naked men arm wrestling in Borat was bad), and some worst dialogue written this side of the Pecos. Now we get Buffy and Spike - which so far, is reminding me a great deal of Buffy and Xander up to and including Turbulence, except Spike wasn't smart enough to actually move on and get a girlfriend. (Speaking of, where is Illyria?)
I do like their banter. But then I've always liked their banter. I like banter. I hate angst. Angst is boring and whiny. Banter is entertaining and makes me laugh. It's a thing.
Buffy: I can't believe you have hot water on this thing. (shouldn't be that surprised, he had it in his crypt, I'm guessing, Spike is anything if not resourceful unlike some other people I won't mention). Also side-bar, what is this thing?
Spike: Tale for another time, pet. (If you read the Lynch comics - you will find out Buffy. Granted you'd have to hop dimensions, but still. I've decided that the IDW comics exist in one dimension and the Dark Horse comics exist in another dimension.)We've got to focus on what's ahead.
Buffy: What's ahead is what should be behind. Suckydale.
Spike: Home again, home again...
Buffy: Jiggedy jig (yes she finishes his sentences, they have the same knowledge of pop culture and the same quippy sense of humor - adding to the fun banter. If her conversations were this interesting with Angel, I might have stayed awake during their romantic scenes on the show and in the comics.) What's the seed of wonder and why is it there? (Good question. Wonder if we'll get an answer? She's drying her hair by the way. The art in this portion is actually quite detailed and rather good. Surprisingly so. He even got Spike's raised and scarred eyebrow. (and ouch, having had that happen to me, you have headaches in that spot for the rest of your life). )
Spike (who has apparently become a watcher now - after threatening to become one in Xander's dream in Restless. Actually this whole bit is not out of character. Spike was well on his way to becoming Buffy's Watcher or source of critical information around Fool for Love - where he tells her more about slayers than Giles ever has, and their relationship to vampires.): It's always been there. Before you, before humans...before the First, even, which has a nice irony. (Then why haven't we ever heard of it before? This reminds me of the whole scythe back-story in S7. )
Buffy: And it is? (yes, really, get to the point already!)
Spike: Just what the name implies. (Sigh, writers and their magnmucnmuffins - that's what George Lucas calls it - the funky item that the writer has created for the characters to hunt - which will save or destroy the world. If done well, it's something we've heard of before like the arc of the covenant, but in Whedon's shows, it is usually some bizarre thing we haven't. At any rate they always think the magnmucmuffin (sp? I have no idea) is obvious to the reader and they don't have to explain it. OR they don't care to explain it, because it's just a plot device.) The source of all the magic in the world. ( And we didn't know about this before, because? You'd think someone would have happened upon it. Then again, maybe not. The characters seem to take for granted much like the audience that there's all this weird magic that pops up out of nowhere. Anyhow, will give Whedon credit - the explanation does sound a bit obvious. On the other hand Seed of Wonder can mean a lot of things. Of course Spike, being a writer and a poet, sees the metaphors in everything - what's obvious to Spike may not be obvious to anyone else.)
Spike continues with the exposition - which feels like a twist on Giles speech in Welcome to the Hellmouth, and the demon's speech in Fray. It's also Whedon's way of cobbling Buffy and Fray together into one timeline. He did the same thing in S7 - with the scythe. I liked Fray by itself. I don't like how Whedon has frayed (pun intended) his original story in order to make a half-interesting and somewhat obscure comic book make sense.
Anyhow it's not that complicated. Basically the seed created the world, and it was all magic, demons, etc...but the seed didn't create the demons - just brought them over from another dimension. Then being a nice little seed - chose for reasons that aren't quite explained, kept the demons and monsters here. Kept them from seeping back into that old dimension from whence they came. (I'm guessing someone else created the seed and used it to get rid of all the nasties on their world by creating a new world - earth and sending them all there. Hey, it's hardly a new concept. Don't like your garbag? Find another dimension, throw it all there, let them deal with it, and walk away.) "Now the earth was an improvement, a step up or it was a ghetto" (guessing a ghetto, because why would you throw all your unwanted nasties somewhere nice? Then again, maybe it was a demon who created the seed, found a new dimension and used the seed to bring its entire race there, because its old dimension was falling apart? Both explanations are plausible, I guess). At any rate the earth's on its own and the seed the source of it all - is the only thing powerful enough to keep it from bleeding back. (Alright, I don't know about you, but I'm confused. They missed a step in there somewhere. Apparently the seed brought the demons to earth, then..what exactly? Bottled them up in another dimension on earth? Or are they co-existing on earth? I'm guessing they are co-existing? Because, hello, we have had demons long before the whole Twilight mess. These are the earth demons. The new demons - or nasties are the new dimensions demons - which the seed is supposed to be keeping out while keeping the earth demons in? OR is the old dimension earth, and...Whedon? You suck at exposition. You are worse than I am. Just saying.)
Buffy: Like Dawn is a Key?
Spike: Forget "key". Think "cork". As long as it's in its place, the hellmouth, more recently known as Sunnydale (something Whedon borrowed from The Lost Boys) -- things stay more or less where they should. (So, the cork keeps the original demons on earth, and new demons outside. Got it.) But pull it out...(he pops a cork, but Buffy who has never been into alcohol and is a bit dense when it comes to metaphors and analogies anyway ( a poet, this gal is not), doesn't get it. Not surprising, remember this is the girl who compared herself to cookie dough. I still love Spike's reaction to Angel repeating the cookie dough speech, precious.)
Buffy: Probably would have been more impressive if something poured out. Like if you held it upside down...(or he was talking to Giles not to you)
Spike: It's a seventy-year-old Madeira. ( I agree with stormwreath here, that's a nice touch. Spike is a connoisor of alcohol. Much like Giles. I can see Giles saying the same thing - it's a seventy-year old Scotch, you nit.) I'm not dumping it on the floor just cause you have no imagination.
Anyhow...Buffy finally gets the point as do we. IF you pop the cork or remove the seed, the world as we know it goes by, and the new universe takes its place. And it would have stayed that way if Buffy hadn't decided to go boink Angel. Just as Angel would never have become evil and sent the world to hell in a hand-basket if she hadn't boinked him back in S2. Buffy? Do you ever learn?
Buffy now decides to explain to Spike (and us by extension) why she boinked Angel. "It wasn't like we were out of control - though we kind of were...it was like (a drunken binge?) Elemental. Like we were outside ourselves, in each other, like we were the wind that swept us up. (sigh, sex, so overrated. Basically you got carried away by your hormones and had an oragasmic experience. We get it. It's not that earth shattering Buffy. Or that interesting. Basically it is physical love without the intellect or mind. Two animals frakking. Except when animals do it the world doesn't get shredded as a result.)
Spike: Can you think of a single creature on any plane of existence that wants to hear this less? (actually quite a few, including yours truly, and well Xander, Riley, and Giles for starters. And Buffy wonders why Riley left her or Xander gave up on her and went for Dawn. OR Spike for that matter chose not to tell her he was alive. Jeeze. It's not like they didn't have to watch it after all. Plus deal with the consequences. Next time you do this - can you go to a hell dimension first? Save so much time.)
Buffy: I'm sorry (yeah right). I'm still feeling...(the buzz?) Like something got switched on and I don't know how to turn it off (basically you are horny as all get out). I really shouldn't be telling you that but..but you were the guy I told the things I wasn't supposed to tell. You're my dark place, Spike. (Gee, what a nice thing to tell a guy who went and got a soul and changed his ways to become a better man. Batting a thousand here, Buffster. Although I suppose I get the metaphor, Spike - Buffy could tell all her deep dark secrets to, and he told her his, because she knew he'd love her no matter what. He'd never judge her harshly, he'd be honest. While Xander - she confided all her hopes and dreams to. In short, she was best friends with Spike and Xander. Yet, for some reason she thinks she is in love with a guy she can't have a conversation with? As I'm writing this, it is worth noting that Buffy is currently daydreaming about Spike taking her into his arms and kissing her. Not going to happen, why would he do that? Let's think about this for a second, if you saw your ex-boyfriend/girlfriend boinking a rival (someone you had a long-standing rivalry with) and then listened to them go on about it, would you want to kiss or be nice to them? Heck Buffy couldn't handle seeing Spike boink Anya fully clothed on video at the magic box, after they split up, after she told him it was over, and after he apologized and said he felt nothing for Anya and he and Anya were just trying to deal with their mutual pain. Yet here she is, right after boinking Angel and telling Angel how great he is, fantasizing about Spike and flirting with Spike. Talk about double-standards. Buffy, you are definitely your father's daughter. )
Spike (is attempting to give us more exposition. Personally I prefer the kissing sequence and the insight into Buffy's head. But the explanation would have been nice too.) : No wonder Giles said you were a crap student.
[What I find interesting in the comparison study of Spike and Angel? Is that Angel is depicted in a manner that is similar to Hank Summers - Buffy can't talk to Hank. Hank takes her ice-skating. She swoons in his presence. He has another family. And he is out of her reach, unknowable. While Spike is increasingly depicted in a manner similar to Giles - present in her life, not out of reach, knowable, and informative. Loves her unconditionally. And is always there. Buffy yearns for Hank, yet it is Giles who is her father in all the ways that count. Just as she yearns for Angel, but it is Spike who is her partner in all the ways that count. Fascinating. The plot sucks beans, but the psychological metaphors that are piled on are nice and chewy - well if you are like me and a frustrated psychologist/english lit major.]
Spike: Yeah, no mystery who you were thinking about.
Buffy (who is struggling to keep up, because her fantasy has discombobulated her a bit, she doesn't appear to know what to do with her feelings for Spike, they don't make sense to her. Her feelings for Angel are simple. But Spike confuses her.): No mystery (liar). Already solved (you wish). Let's go back just a teeny bit. (what were you saying? How can we stop the world from being destroyed ? - It's interesting that Buffy's romantic fantasies keep getting in the way of obtaining crucial info on saving the world. In the past saving the world got in the way of the romance, now the romance is getting in the way of saving the world. The dichotomy is interesting.
And it explains another metaphor that I just figured out tonight. The Chain or Buffy double underground is stranded, alone, fighting demons, trying to save the world, while Buffy double above ground in Rome is having an amazing romance with the Immortal, shagging him, not a care in the world. Romance vs. Life. Being alone and saving others vs. having someone and not helping anyone. All Buffy's life it has been an either/or scenario. She can't have both. She's either the slayer - alone, underground, buried in the muck or the normal girl at the dance kissing the boy, while kids die around her. At least that's how she feels. It's not true, but in her head it is.)
Spike brushes her off, annoyed. He's had enough Bangle for a lifetime. States, much like Giles would - he's in full "Watcher" mode, at the moment - "Why don't we get you into bed?" It's what a father might say or Giles might say. But Buffy thinks of Spike in another way, her head goes right to sex. And she's flustered.
Poor Dawn. I can identify. Although if I had to choose between giant cockroaches running a ship and spiders, I'd pick the cockroaches (plus easier to draw, I suspect). Why Whedon chose to have the ship piloted by cockroaches I have no idea. Is this some sort of reference to Spike as the cellar dweller? Spike's always being associated with Bugs in this show...and not all that effectively. First it's the bugs in As You Were, then the Egyptian Beetles that clean him out, somewhat painfully in Grave (that must have been fun to act). Rather like Xander in this scene (I mean I like Xander notthat Xander is similar to Spike). But, sorry, Dawn's toast. Xander basically jinxed it - just as he jinxed his relationships with Anya and Renee...the boy never learns. "Assuming we survive (assuming Dawn survives) and I assume (probably not a good idea) we could get an apartment (talk about wishful thinking). Just us - not a hundred slayers (don't worry there probably will be a lot less than that by the time this is over). You could go back to school (where exactly?), I'd get work (doing what? Carpentry? I suppose you could do security?) Support us - in barely above poverty line style - too much too soon? (yep, you just jinxed yourself, you idiot.).
It's a touching scene, made more touching by the guy with the moustach watching them. This is the General in case you were wondering. I have no idea what he is up to. But I'm guessing when the whole seed story comes out, he's going to be in favor of smashing it. I would be if I were him. It's a heck of a lot easier to fight vampires and slayers, with magic gone from the world. Besides, I think that was his agenda from the get-go.
We jump to Angel now - attempting to save the world from the billions of new demons that he conspired to let loose in it by powering up Buffy then shagging her brains out. (Literally, she has no brains now. Just a horny little thing. But then neither does Angel apparently. Not that either were especially brainy to begin with.) The writers are showing me this in an attempt to make me feel sympathy for Angel or think he can be redeemed? I'm sorry, but it is not working. You are going to have to do a lot more than have him fly about and fight demons. That actually looks like fun.
Back to Spike and the gang. Spike tells everyone what he told Buffy, but we don't have to hear it - yay us. They apparently understand this plot-line about as well as we do. God isn't supposed to make sense or loopy writers who like to change places with their editors for that matter.
Giles: I just don't see how I didn't realize this before (possibly because up until now it didn't exist, because the writer/god didn't come up with it until now?)
Willow: You had a lot of prophecies to sort through, it's understandable. (Interesting how a professed athesist and existentialist loves to create multiple prophecies. Personally, I think he enjoys making fun of them.)
Spike amusingly uses the same metaphor with Xander (who unlike Buffy is more concerned about things like how does Spike know any of this? )
Spike: Three words little man (why is Jeanty drawing Spike as taller than Xander or the same height? Is Spike wearing lifts in this comic? Or did Jeanty not get the fact that Xander is 6 foot and Spike is 5'8? Or possibly 5'5, it's hard to tell.) I speak Fyarl. (Apparently Fyarl demons are smarter than we thought. OR just savvy to the whole seed thing. You don't need to be smart to know about the seed, just old and into self-preservation. And they are guns for hire, which means they've probably been hired to protect it before. We've been told that the demons on this plain of existence don't want to be kicked off of it. Don't blame them. Or share it with the new demons. Hard enough just sharing it with the humans. Now if they were bright - they'd join up with the humans and fight the new demons. But they aren't. The demons on this plain not wanting the seed pulled out is according to Spike -and is one of the things they have in their favor.)
Xander: But that doesn't expl (anything? No, it doesn't. But this is Whedon telling you it doesn't matter...just go with the flow. Xander is basically Allie and Jeanty, quibbling, and Spike is Whedon.)
At this point Willow falls into Aliwuyn's world, because Aliwuyn (the snake lady) needs to provide the other bit of exposition that Spike doesn't know about. (Hmmm - all our exposition is provided by the trickster characters, Aliwuyn (Willow's version of Spike, I guess) and Spike. Except Aliwuyn is depicted on a nice magical plain, which reminds me of the Twilight verse. It's not Twilight's verse - just reminds me of it.
Anyhow, Ali (getting tired of trying to spell the other), tells Willow that if you smash the seed - all magic goes by-bye, which means goodbye to your witchcraft, to me, and well all the other things that are magical and aren't vampires and slayers. If you remove it - then they are swallowed by a hell dimension (sort of like in Season 2 with Acathla - this is the problem with fantasy, people come up with names for things that I can't pronounce or remember how to spell.)
Personally, I don't see the problem here. So you lose your magic Will's. Deal. It's better than having to fight demons all the time. Ali states - "your world would lose something it doesn't know it needs.." (okay obvious metaphor for imagination - which was done in the Marvel comics back in the 80s with more or less the exact same speech. ) "It's not only Twilight you have to stop Willow." And we are getting back to the two villians or big bads...there have always been two, in every season. There's the human one and the demonic one. Here the two villians are Angel and the General. The General represents the humans who want an end to magic, to this power, and a normal world that they can control. Angel wanted Twilight - a new universe, a higher plain to take over.
Angel's all about changing the world and everyone around him to atone for his sins, but never himself. He needs to take a page from old Leo Tolstoy - "everybody thinks they need to change humanity, never themselves.".
And now, we get the big plot-twist that everyone is speculating on and I personally don't think is that big a deal. Willow: "Buffy had a vision that someone close would betray here. You know who it is, don't you?"
I'm guessing it's Xander. But I'm also guessing it doesn't matter. Because Buffy has already betrayed everyone by sleeping with TwAngel and bringing about the apocalypse, again. If at first you don't succeed...Okay, I've changed my mind. Buffy shouldn't have staked Angel in S1, she should have castrated him - it would have solved so many problems. (Assuming of course it didn't grow back, one never knows with vampires. So maybe not?) At any rate, I know this much - whatever happens is going to cause what created the Frayverse. Basically Buffy sealing herself off in another dimension. S9 will be the fallout from that and people attempting to free her. Now, how that happens? As convoluted as this story has become? I'm guessing what will happen is the General will talk either Dawn or Xander into smashing the seed. Xander may end up getting talked into doing it after Dawn gets killed. There's a reason we have the General eavesdropping on them. This would no doubt cause Buffy to get sealed in the new universe - Willow may push her, who knows. But Willow clearly feels guilty about it in the future, or maybe guilt is the wrong word. Is bitter about it? Don't really know or care that much to be honest. Although I am curious - I do want to see how this story ends. Come this far...
And we hop back to Angel - to see how bad things are (they are pretty bad, demons popping up everywhere, more demons than humans - see humans this is what happens when you trust a crazy vampire with a god complex). Angel's trying to help, and getting off on it apparently. So no, not convincing me this guy is redeemable. He looks like he's having a blast."Buffy's right! I do need this!"
Meanwhile Giles and Faith are discussing something. No clue what exactly. I'm guessing what Spike told everyone. Since Giles says they have to locate the seed. The problem with how Faith is drawn is sometimes she looks a lot like Dawn. Jeanty is better with Spike and Buffy. Granted we don't see Faith and Giles that often, so he may just be rusty.
Faith is annoyed by it all. Don't blame her. She feels as if they are all off course. And wants to help the girls. Faith has redeemed herself. Unlike Angel, Faith has actually changed and grown. (except when she looks like Dawn) She changed herself, did the work. She may be the most evolved next to Spike.
Giles appears to be asking Faith to do something else, that's she's not so keen on. Their interaction reminds me of No Future for You - with Gigi. Is he asking her to betray Buffy? To do what must be done to save the world? To step in?
Spike pops up and looks a lot like Andrew...although that is admittedly a tough posture to draw. And it is an Andrew moment - he's awed by what he did to Sunnydale. (Actually what the amulet that Angel gave him did - and his soul, so I guess you could say what his soul did?)
They all go to the hellmouth. Buffy first, with Spike hanging on for dear life onto her waist, in much the same position Buffy used to have when Willow took her on similar flights. Except Buffy's horny and says - Spike's touching my butt. Honey, is that all you can think about? You are worse than a guy. Granted if Spike were holding onto my waist for dear life, I'd be thinking much the same thing, but then I'd have shagged Spike, and staked TwAngel. So...
Xander insists Will teleport all them to Sunnydale. Xander? You are going to regret that decision.
There's a fight scene with the Master. Buffy defeats him. Actually it's not the Master. No one calls him that. He just sort of looks like him. They call him the Protector. Who thinks little of this new universe that she created with Angel. The Protector is confused to see Spike and not Angel, and thinks they are fighting to take the seed. (By the way, the whole The destroyer, the protector, etc bit reminds me of Ghostbusters. I keep expecting to see the Stovetop Marshmellow Puff Man walking around.)
Back to Angel - who is tired and not having fun any more. The world is shredded. Yes, Angel you just cause one apocalypse after another. Twilight shows up and reveals to Angel that he/she/it (people call it a she, but honestly? I can't tell.) is not the PTB but rather the new universe. It showed up in the past to manipulate him into bringing it to life, sort of like Jasmine did with Connor. Angel you really need to stop reading shanshu prophecies. Seriously, is it just me or is Angel constantly being used as a stud or sperm donor by the PTB? As Cordy once said - why does the PTB keep wanting to knock me up? Good question. First we have the convoluted Darla/Connor/Cordelia/Jasmine plot - which actually made more sense than this one does. Possibly because Tim Minear and David Greenwalt were half-way involved in the plotting? Now we have the even more convoluted Angel/Buffy/Twilight plot. Angel's like that dumb jock who just keeps getting the ditzy cheerleader preggers, except their kids want to destroy the world.
The kid shows up looking like Aslan from The Chronicles of Narnia - making me think that somebody has been reading those books to their kids and has gotten sick of them, and taken a page from Philip K. Pullman, deciding to turn the kindly Aslan (aka God) from Narnia into an destructive force. Although I wouldn't call it evil - it just wants to survive.
"But I'm here now, Father. You can't deny the universe you created."
Jeeze. Poor Angel, he just can't get away from reliving that scenario, can he? That's the same line he told his own father before he tore his throat out. "I'm here now, Father. You can't deny the man that you had a hand in creating. I'm the monster you made me." Which in turn is the same line Connor throws in Angel's face. And the same line, Jasmine does. And for that matter, Spike. Angel, face it, dude, you have turned into your father except a hell of a lot worse.
Angel really needs to stop creating things or trying to control or change things. He keeps repeating the same mistakes. And something tells me a simple mindwipe ain't gonna make it all better.
What do you think Angel's going to do? Well, if past history is any indication - probably aid the new universe. Angel learn from his mistakes?
My difficulty with the comics is that while Angel is technically speaking in character, they have simplified him to such an extent that all I see are the things I despise about the character. I actually did enjoy the Angel series and found the character interesting. That wasn't David Boreanze, if it was, I would like Bones and I don't. No, that character was complex, and multi-faceated. Here - he's been reduced to a metaphor or allegory. He's basically Daddy issues personified.
Which brings me to the lengthy and rather ironic letter and exchange with Allie at the back of this issue. Making me wonder how people think. Allie admits in response to the letter that he screwed up by engaging in the Angel vs. Spike wars. (You think? But hey, no worries, you are hardly the first writer to do this...Fury and Noxon did the same thing and have the bruises to prove it.) I don't understand why writers, particularly writers of soap operas and comic book serials can't figure out that there will be vehement fan rivaleries and as a writer, to take one side or the other is the kiss of death. I mean there have been ship wars since the 1800s. I read recently how Louisa May Alcott had to deal with rabid fans writing her letters on the lead character Joe marrying Laurie and not the Professor. (Joe married the Professor, Laurie married her younger sister Amy, people were not happy.) And all you have to do is go to a daytime soap opera fanboard to see ship wars that will make your eyes bleed. It's par for the course. Heck, the X-men - had them. There was a huge fracas over whether Jean should be with Scott or Wolverine. She ended up with both of them at one point or another. This is part of the territory. The letter and response hit me as ironic - because the letter writer is upset with how Spike and Spuffy are being treated in contrast to Angel and Bangle, and the responder states all I said is we're not going to say Buffy loves Spike more than Angel, but we are treating their relationship with respect (meaning Spike/Buffy). This is ironic, because the relationship that has been repeatedly bashed in the comic and the character that is being repeatedly bashed is Angel and Bangel. They are not treating that relationship with any respect whatsoever. (I can't speak for the fanboards, but fanboards and writer interviews are distractions. As Whedon aptly stated - judge the story on the page, not what the teller says about it.) It's obvious to me that the writers and artist is mocking the Bangel romantic relationship - to such an extent, that I found it offensive at different points and I'm by no means a Bangel shipper, but I was once upon a time. If I were a Bangel shipper now? I wouldn't want to read this. And all the Bangel shippers that are on my mutual friends list? They aren't. Or if they are, are upset about it. If they aren't reading it? They never will. They would hate how Angel is being depicted here. The ones who are Angel fans and are reading them? Hate how he is depicted and feel they don't even recognize him. So I'm guessing the writer and editor is probably looking at the letter and the Spike fans and thinking, WTF? There's a disconnect here, I think. The story isn't going to end on romantic note - the writers are NOT romantics.
And it's clear to me that Buffy is going to end up alone and possibly in a hell dimension as she fears. It's forshadowed in all her dreams and nightmares. It's her deepest fear. And as such her self-fulfilling prophecy. There's alot of self-fulfilling prophecy going on here. The Buffy/Spike relationship is a tragic one - because once again Buffy screwed it up. Not that Spike did not play a role in that. And who knows what would have happened if he showed up before Angel had?
To me, the comics are a bit of a chaotic mess - plotwise and metaphorwise. The writer is trying to do far too many things at once, and none of them well. But they are entertaining. I agree with the IGN reviewer on this. Pacing is bad. In some respects the comics remind of a daytime soap opera such as Passions. The plot isn't based on logic so much as well emotion. It's like a fever dream. A very longwinded fever dream. With better editing - this might have been good. I can see why people who love chewy metaphors are excited by it. It has an abundance of chewy metaphor and subtext. If you are a poet, you may well be in heaven. If you read things more literally, you may not be. Hard to say, people are impossible to pigeon hole.
I see multiple metaphors here. The political one about creating a better world by destroying the old one, only to discover the new one is even worse - or a morality tale on abuses of power. The romantic one - or fable - about how giving into idealized romance...leads to nothing. Love comes first and foremost from like minds and friendship. If you can't trust your lover with your dreams and your nightmares, than he has no business being your lover. And the creative metaphor - of playing god with one's characters, this does double service metaphysically. And finally, the psychological one - about growing up, letting go, and moving on. There's a lot here, but it is confusing and muddled. And there's little time to unmuddle it. Campy and silly? Sure. But after discussing the tv series with the comic shop people - it occurs to me that that was always the case. If it weren't I wouldn't be so embarrassed to discuss it with people. And the plot lines were never clear or logical. Buffy was always a soap opera. A supernatural soap opera with lots of action, but still a soap opera, with all the flaws and foibles of that genre.
The comic book at times reminds me of some of the girl magna books that I've seen. Lots of sex. Lots of sexual fantasizing and romantic entanglements. Also a lot of male moralizing about what it means to be female and about female sexuality. And no, they don't get it. At all.
But this is getting long and it is time for bed. Also not as snarky as I thought it would be. Odd that. But oh well.
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no subject
Date: 2010-10-09 09:23 am (UTC)I actually did enjoy the Angel series and found the character interesting. That wasn't David Boreanze, if it was, I would like Bones and I don't. No, that character was complex, and multifaceated. Here - he's been reduced to a metaphor or allegory. He's basically Daddy issues personified.
This, so much. And it makes me very sad. I *do* think he grew and learned and had an arc on his own show, and they've just thrown all that out of the window for the sake of space frakking. *is sad*
It's too early for any deeper thoughts, but I think I agree with pretty much everything.
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Date: 2010-10-09 02:36 pm (UTC)Agreed. Although I think they reduced Angel's characterization as a way of emphasizing this whole let's kill the world and set up a better one and live out the prophecy metaphor they got going.
Angel has been reduced to an allegory, unfortunately.
The spacefrakking is more or less a side effect of it.
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Date: 2010-10-09 08:41 pm (UTC)Basically, they didn't have to make Angel this strupid and self-centered to have accomplished the same plot location.
no subject
Date: 2010-10-10 12:09 am (UTC)We should have been allowed to be in Angel's pov throughout. And Whedon should have given Angel a justification - maybe Connor dying? If he'd shown Connor dead - I can see that being big enough to motivate Angel into bringing Twilight to fruitation.
But the way it stands? Angel's being manipulated (again) by a Jasmine clone. I mean come on, fool me once shame on me, fool me twice...and how about three times. You'd think Angel would learn?
And I thought he had at the end of S5 - when he decides to sign away the shanshu and kick the partners to their knees. I rather liked how Angel S5 ended and prefer that to well this version.
Angel may have been an anti-hero in ATS, but he was at least a likeable one and somewhat intelligent.
If they'd done to Spike what they did to Angel in these comics?
I'd be pissed. Luckily for me, Whedon likes and identifies far too much with Spike to do that. (Spike and Spike's issues are heavily based on Whedon. )
no subject
Date: 2010-10-09 11:44 am (UTC)The reason I think Dawn will survive now is it's just so damned obvious they're playing her as going to die. At this point, it's the opposite of "I'll be right back".
S9 will be the fallout from that and people attempting to free her.
See, I kinda don't think they will. Spike might. Maybe Angel. But the Scoobies? To me the whole season basically shows they don't need her anymore. Dawn doesn't need her to protect her and she and Xander will move in together. Giles has been basically training Faith to be the new Buffy*. Xander is over Buffy and Willow states in a roundabout way that she wouldn't bring Buffy back again if it came to that. Buffy is the mother of the Scoobs and the Slayers, but she's not needed and the parallel the theme of the current mother universe being expendable when Twilight was made, so is Buffy expendable to them.
*I wonder if this will play in somehow. Giles has never thought much of Buffy leading and during the season has been shown to be working behind her back. It's his characterization to think Buffy's morality is an exploitable weakness. She wouldn't kill Ben, wouldn't kill Spike, for instance. Perhaps the Brutus/Cassius reference in the first arc is about Giles and him doing something to her to make her a better leader.
to such an extent, that I found it offensive at different points and I'm by no means a Bangel shipper,
Yeah. Bangels are around because Joss let them and catered to them, now he's mocking them. B/A was done on BTVS and Joss revived it by turning the first act of Chosen into an AtS S5 commercial. Both ships were dead at the end of AtS. He revived them *again* and has done nothing but insult them. It's like he knows he needs ships but doesn't like it and is taking it out on the fans. Nothing new there, though (see the AtS finale).
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Date: 2010-10-09 02:29 pm (UTC)Damn. Ruine my fun. ;-)
I hope you're wrong. I was looking forward to it. This comic really needs a death, instead of a bunch of people we don't know or care about dying.
See, I kinda don't think they will. Spike might. Maybe Angel. But the Scoobies? To me the whole season basically shows they don't need her anymore.
That sort of makes the Scoobies out to be real self-centered scumbags doesn't it?
They only brought her back, from heaven no less, because they "needed her". Now they are going to leave her in a hell dimension because she's inconvienent and don't need her around?
They deserve the Fray universe. ;-)
As for the ships? I think Doctor Horrible more or less states Whedon's take on a certain type of romantic trope - rather well.
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Date: 2010-10-09 04:11 pm (UTC)That sort of makes the Scoobies out to be real self-centered scumbags doesn't it?
To me, they've always been that way. :P Like you said, they yanked her out of heaven for selfish reasons, no matter what they said afterward. There's a certain unity to leaving her in Hell, I guess. Perhaps the betrayal isn't committed by just one of them, but all of them.
I dont' think Joss will see it that way. If he is Buffy as he claims, it'll probably be his way of saying his kids don't need him anymore.
no subject
Date: 2010-10-09 01:24 pm (UTC)I kind of enjoyed BtVS S8 #37... it was funny and exciting and clearly building to a conclusion, which I don't even want to speculate about so I'm avoiding all the online discussions of what everyone thinks is going to happen.
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Date: 2010-10-09 02:32 pm (UTC)Ah. Thank you. Good to know. Looking forward to it as well, the preview pages were awesome.
Issue 37 was entertaining.
it was funny and exciting and clearly building to a conclusion, which I don't even want to speculate about so I'm avoiding all the online discussions of what everyone thinks is going to happen.
Hey speculation is half the fun, well only if you are an analytical nit like me, ;-)
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Date: 2010-10-09 05:07 pm (UTC)I don't know why, but when I first read that it immediately translated to "MacGuffin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MacGuffin) McMuffins" in my head. [/I have no dignity ;)]
Interesting read. I'm running late so I don't have time to really comment but I will bookmark and return.
no subject
Date: 2010-10-10 12:13 am (UTC)Sigh. George Lucas' take on his Star Wars prequels and Indiana Jones finale reminds me a great deal of Whedon's take on his Buffy meets Fray comics. Both suffer from the same plot and characterization problems, although I think the last Indiana Jones flick was the best of the bunch.
no subject
Date: 2010-10-10 01:25 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-10-09 07:54 pm (UTC)The first 7 pages - fantasy!Buffy - were written entirely by Whedon (for the rest Allie said he'll tell us which of his lines remained). They're kinda twisting Bargaining/After Life - Buffy willingly comes back from heaven for her friends, she realizes there is something wrong with her, but she no longer can talk to (even) Spike, nor Spike wants to hear about her experience.
In S8 terms "dark", "Buffy you are the dark" is a recurring theme which I think no longer applies to Spike and Buffy already felt that way in her Always Darkest dream - Buffy dirty girl - Spike clean boy.
DarkHorse announced at NYCC that S9 will have 4 titles Buffy, Angel series and Spike, Willow spin-offs. This kinda tells how it ends: Angel/Spike/Buffy will close the portal to the Fray time and Willow will be left alone and getting older awaiting for Buffy to kill her in the future.
Can't wait for your Spike reviews.
no subject
Date: 2010-10-10 12:28 am (UTC)Also thank you for the report on S9. I wondered which of the characters those four comic book lines would focus on.
Makes sense it's Spike, Willow, Angel and Buffy - those are by far the most popular characters (which is evidenced by action figure sales alone.). I may just pick up the Willow and Spike issues. These comics have more or less killed my interest in Buffy and Angel's arcs. It's hard to care what happens to either character at this point.
The first 7 pages - fantasy!Buffy - were written entirely by Whedon (for the rest Allie said he'll tell us which of his lines remained). They're kinda twisting Bargaining/After Life - Buffy willingly comes back from heaven for her friends, she realizes there is something wrong with her, but she no longer can talk to (even) Spike, nor Spike wants to hear about her experience.
Interesting and applicable. She's in a way cut herself off from everyone - even more than before. Although Spike is trying to some extent at least. I keep waiting for the scene in which they are standing side by side and looking up with horror at the Twuffy frakking - which we saw in issue 34. I want to see her look at Spike after that, and say, "Oh god, I am sooo sorry."
Angel cuts her off from everyone she loves and from her heart.
He isolates her. Talk about abusive relationships.
In S8 terms "dark", "Buffy you are the dark" is a recurring theme which I think no longer applies to Spike and Buffy already felt that way in her Always Darkest dream - Buffy dirty girl - Spike clean boy.
I agree. We are at the point in her Long Way Home Dream, where she's fallen into the dark, has been told she's the dark.
I also agree in that I think Angel/Spike and Buffy will be involved in sealing off the portal, potentially sealing themselves in it not sure. And Willow will end up with all the remanent energy, making her immortal, unable to grow old or die, until Buffy eventually kills her in the future. Willow's arc in some respects is the most tragic.
no subject
Date: 2010-10-09 08:41 pm (UTC)Why Whedon chose to have the ship piloted by cockroaches I have no idea.
I think it's because they are the ultimate survivors - cockroaches and Spike. My first thought when I saw the ship and the crew was that they had just barely escaped another apocalypse.
The writers are showing me this in an attempt to make me feel sympathy for Angel or think he can be redeemed?
Angel vaguely reminded me of Captain Hammer in "Dr. Horrible", especially when he splashed the slayers with blood.
This is ironic, because the relationship that has been repeatedly bashed in the comic and the character that is being repeatedly bashed is Angel and Bangel. They are not treating that relationship with any respect whatsoever. (I can't speak for the fanboards, but fanboards and writer interviews are distractions.
The problem is that Allie and Jeanty told repeatedly that Twilight arc is a gift the Bangel shippers; that their reunion is a wonderful thing. I don't know if it was a a complete misunderstanding of the story or a marketing ploy, but all the interviews assured the fandom that space-frak is something positive we should enjoy and root for.
no subject
Date: 2010-10-09 11:29 pm (UTC)I think it's because they are the ultimate survivors - cockroaches and Spike. My first thought when I saw the ship and the crew was that they had just barely escaped another apocalypse.
That's actually not a bad analogy. It works. Also, again better than spiders.;-)
Angel vaguely reminded me of Captain Hammer in "Dr. Horrible", especially when he splashed the slayers with blood.
Me too. Although I wouldn't say vaguely. I honestly think Whedon sees Angel the same way he sees Captain Hammer. Dark Horse Comics Angel sounds and acts a lot like Captain Hammer.
The problem is that Allie and Jeanty told repeatedly that Twilight arc is a gift the Bangel shippers; that their reunion is a wonderful thing. I don't know if it was a a complete misunderstanding of the story or a marketing ploy, but all the interviews assured the fandom that space-frak is something positive we should enjoy and root for.
Really? Oh my god. That's really nasty of them. I didn't realize they actually said that. If I were a major Angel or Bangel fan? I'd hate Allie and Jeanty something fierce. And would not continue reading these comics. Because let's face it - we couldn't do a satirical bash of that relationship better than the Twilight arc and following issues have - if we tried. Seriously.
Allie and Jeanty must really dislike Bangel fans or be completely oblivious to the snark. I'm not sure which.
no subject
Date: 2010-10-09 11:03 pm (UTC)I have to say that your take on the Spuffy stuff is more comforting to me than the initial squees I've read. I generally find a less starry-eyed take more convincing and thus more comforting.
The romantic one - or fable - about how giving into idealized romance...leads to nothing. Love comes first and foremost from like minds and friendship. If you can't trust your lover with your dreams and your nightmares, than he has no business being your lover.
The thing with Bangel, though is, do you believe your lying eyes or do you believe what everyone involved with the comics tell you. My first reaction to the whole Twilight/Spakking (Space fraking) thing was that it was massive, massive subversion of Bangel. Seriously, the whole arc couldn't be any more disrespectful to Buffy and Angel. Angel has been going around destroying Buffy's confidence, getting people killed, and destroying the world. This is not a hero, this is a dupe and a self-centered one at that because he hasn't been able to see beyond how 'special' he is. On the other hand all it took for Buffy to drop trou and ignore everything that was going on outside of 'her' was a ta-da! Beneath the mask is ANGEL! Nothing changed... except it because twu wuv mwahahahahaha! Icing on top with Buffy saying "Best day ever", which I honestly cannot find any way to possibly defend. The world is flipping destroyed. There's just no way with scruples that can be pushed aside for "best day ever" and it not say deeply horrible things about Buffy's character.
But... BUT every person involved with the comics has been quite insistent about not believing your lyin' eyes. It's wuv. It's not really so bad. They may be a little flawed but it's true love, baby! How... romantic. (And then there's the fact that there's a segment of the fandom where Bangel could set puppies and kittens on fire in front of them and it would still be the most romantic thing ever), so in a lot of ways even though there's great subversion and an astonishling derogatory depiction of Bangel in this, it's hard to really say with any confidence that it's intended because every one of the writers and editors involved clearly have no idea what in the frell fans are talking about when they say that these are truly deeply horrible depictions of Buffy and Angel. Meanwhile, the ones in charge talk about what an epic romance there are. So I sometimes it hard not to wonder whether it's subversion when no one involved seems to have any idea that it's being subverted. Maybe that's what Joss intends, but if it is, he hasn't bothered to tell anyone else.
That said, I think these comics have done some pretty horrible things to Buffy and Angel, things the show characters didn't deserve. I pity the show's characters. The comic-book Bangel, however, it's pretty darn difficult to pity.
no subject
Date: 2010-10-09 11:57 pm (UTC)If I were trying to sell these comics to fans, personally, I would plead the fifth. But that's because I'm not a good liar. Allie? A very very good liar. Remember Allie and Jeanty are trying to get Bangel fans to buy the comics. They are going to say whatever is possible to keep these people buying comics. I remember back in 2002 - Fury convincing fans that Spike was going to get his chip removed and never ever would be good or get a soul - Fury is a great liar. Noxon did the same. Also a good liar. Whedon just sat back and grinned.
I've learned to take what writers and creators and editors state about their story with a hefty grain of salt. I mean come on - this is the guy who promised his fans that he'd never kill off Tara and literally put her in the front credits in the episode in which he killed her.
All you have to do is watch Doctor Horrible to see what Whedon thinks of Bangel and Angel's superman complex for that matter. Or just re-read the Riley comic - which more or less underlines it. Angel believes that by doing evil he does good. That he does not have to change, that he has to change the world. And Buffy has said repeatedly throughout the series that she can't trust Angel, that she doesn't know what he is thinking, and they never did talking very well. Unless you think true love is never really talking outside of lovey dovey sonnets, and not being able to trust the other person enough to tell them anything meaningful...and trust me, Whedon and Allie don't think that.
I don't see anything in these comics, not a thing that shows me this is true love. What I see is two people frakking each other's brains out then talking about how great it was. Spike and Buffy had longer and more productive conversations in S6. Considering they are showing me how close Buffy and Spike are, how comfortable they are with each other, how she can tell him anything, how she can tell him about Angel and note - in stark contrast, she isn't able to tell Angel anything at all. She just basks in the glow.
A nice comparison is actually Hank and Giles. Hank in S2 tells Joyce how Buffy never talked to him, that he couldn't get her to tell him anything. Yet Giles is able to get her to tell him everything in When She Was Bad. Giles keeps saying he's not her father, but he is clearly her father. Hank slowly, gradually disappears.
Spike and Angel are both much older than Buffy, and both show up and get sexually involved with her when Hank and Giles disappear.
Hank disappears from her life in S2, Angel gets involved with her - to the point he takes her ice-skating, like Hank did. It was an activity Whedon makes clear was associated with Hank. Giles takes off in S6, and Buffy literally falls into Spike's arms. Even tells him she kissed him because of how she felt about Giles. Also in S5, when Spike falls for Buffy, Giles is feeling less capable of being her Watcher, and Spike takes on that role more and more. In S1 - Buffy is struggling with losing Hank, her fears, and how his thoughts are unknowable, Angel is introduced at that time. Also, Angel is a lot like her father in some respects, and like her father goes to LA.
Whedon doesn't care about the romance and isn't really catering that much to shippers, he is however making fun of them - he always has, in both commentary and in the show. But snark does go over people's heads. I mean, how people could still ship the couple after I Will Always Remember You? I'll never understand. Or Sancturary. We see what we want to see, I think.
I remember during S5 ATS, a Spuffy Shipper told me that she was convinced the end of ATS S5 would have Angel shanshuing and going off into the sunset with Buffy - at least that was the rumor she heard. I laughed. No, I told her. It's more likely Whedon will have them all dying in an alley sort of like the Wild Bunch. This is noir story with a clear anti-hero. Angel isn't going to shanshu or get Buffy, unless its in a horrifically bad way. Whedon is first and foremost a horror writer.
no subject
Date: 2010-10-10 02:13 am (UTC)LOL! At least she was more rational than the Bangel shippers that insisted that Buffy would show up at the end, even after everyone including SMG had announced that she wouldn't. But they insisted that she would, she would, she would... even after the episode freaking aired! I kid you not. There were a couple of Bangels who insisted that the reason the WB was replaying NFA on the Friday after it initially aired was because that time Buffy would show up.
I swear to God that I am not making that up!
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Date: 2010-10-10 03:05 am (UTC)At any rate, yep. I believe you! Had similar arguments. Lots of them. Got to the point in which I decided, you know what? Let's just agree to disagree.
I'm not sure what's going on in Whedon's head on Angel. But he reminds me a lot of Captain Hammer and Boyd in how he is being drawn and portrayed. He's saying the same things those guys did and acting in the same way. The whole Buffy/Angel bit felt very similar to the Felicia/Hammar bit. And Whedon's admitted that he doesn't get Angel and doesn't particularly like the character. Which makes sense - Whedon is a self-professed athesist and existentialist, Angel is the opposite. Angel not only believes in god, he believes in prophecies. Angel in some respects represents the people Whedon detests the most - the people who scare Whedon - the self-righteous and just leaders who think they are right and their religious cause is right, regardless of the fall out, that it is okay to do evil to do good. (such as *cough*bornagainChristianBush*cough*) There is heavy political metaphor here and it is repeated in three of Whedon's tales.
And I think Whedon is playing with the fact that some not all fans are devoted to a character like Angel, the stand-up, classic hero, who is just, and right. He's...not mocking them, so much as attempting to show how absurd their devotion to this particular type of hero is. It's basically the same thing he showed in Doctor Horrible, just less clear and more long-winded.
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Date: 2010-10-10 03:03 am (UTC)at least that was the rumor she heard. I laughed.
Pretty sure that stemmed from something Fury said. Toward the end, he got annoyed at someone asking him about B/A and he snarked that Buffy and Angel would ride off into the sunset together. Definitely being sarcastic, but you know how that is sometimes.
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Date: 2010-10-10 03:10 am (UTC)The writers really weren't B/A fans. Most of them, oddly enough, liked writing B/S the most - possibly because banter is a lot more fun to write than lovey dovey angst. Fury and Espenson, remember, were both comedy writers first, dramatic writers second - I bet they hated writing B/A unless they could make fun of it.
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Date: 2010-10-10 03:43 am (UTC)I don't know if they didn't like it or just hated B/A fans. I can't imagine the kind of crap they must have received over the years from them. I don't think any of them had a particularly fond view of the relationship. Boring to write and so on.
I think Goddard might have liked them? I don't know why I think that, but I think that way. But then, I'm a fandom minority who never cared for him, so that might be my own brain putting distasteful things together.
I can't defend Fury's crap with the fandom and Spike fans, but I also think he might have been one of the only ones to talk back to Joss. Despite his own shortcomings as a writer, I don't see a lot of the garbage happening if he were there.
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Date: 2010-10-10 06:59 pm (UTC)Were you on the fan boards back in 2001 and 2002? I ask, because I can't tell how many people were on them? I flirted with fandom at different points from 1998-2001, then got obsessed and came onto boards in 2001. Lurked for two months before posting. And I checked out multiple boards. 90% of the public boards were moderated by or run by B/A shippers and some of them were rather rigid with rules and moderators. You had to be really careful.
The reason for this - was that many boards got established during S2 and S3 when the fandom took off - during the height of the B/A relationship.
The writers were new to all of this. Prior to 2001, there really wasn't a way to interact directly with fans. The internet didn't really take off until then. Fury had never truly interacted with people who saw his work. Usually when you do a tv show - you have no idea if anyone is watching it or what they think of it.
It's like any job, you put in a full day, go home. And you wait for a bunch of numbers to tell you if you are doing a good job.
OR a tv critic in some mag like TV Guide or Entertainment Weekly.
Then along comes the internet - where you can pop on a board and get instant reviews of your show or work.
I remember discussing fanfic with fanfic writers way back in 2006 and they got upset with me for not seeing what they were writing and not appreciating their view. Some fanfic writers make Fury look pretty nice in comparison, as do some published fiction writers *cough*AnnRice*cough* (who had a hissy fit on Amazon.com).
Anyhow, I think Fury eventually learned his lesson, as did Espenson, and the others, which is to be careful on fanboards.
They know who you are, but you don't know who they are. Think about it - it's an uneven playing field. Someone with a pseudonyme (not using their real name or any clue what their gender or ethnicity or anything else is) is bantering with Fury (who they know is a writer for Buffy, white, a guy, and a whole lot more). And it got personal. Fury or Noxon would give an interview and fans would dissect it and take bits of it out of context - to use as evidence for their pov or perspective. Then the writer would pop up and say - oh, no, you are taking me out of context - that's not what I meant at all or mock them for doing it. I can't say I blame him and the other writers for that. I don't know what I'd do if I were a tv writer and went online to see what people thought and saw reactions that made no sense to me.
In some respects, I think fame and having fans is a double-edged sword or a gift with a price attached. Having fans can be scary.;-)
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Date: 2010-10-10 07:32 pm (UTC)I came into the fandom around 2001 or so but didn't hang around long. Back then saying you liked something about the show just seemed to be an invitation to flame. So I left and came back around 2003 and stayed till 2007 when the comics came out and it seemed like saying you *didn't* like something about them was an invitation to flame. Then I came back around January when Twilightgate happened 'cause I knew there'd be juicy wank and I could mentally say I Told You So. :)
I remember reading Joss used to post on The Bronze board way back when--1999 or so. So he was aware of that sort of thing and maybe was a step ahead of Fury and company. I think they're not used to interacting with fans directly, but I remember someone saying that after S3, the badness started with fanmail. I think after awhile being told what to write gets under your skin and yeah, it probably bubbled up on fanboards. But if I were a writer, I'd stay clear of them and if I were a showrunner, I'd tell the staff the same thing. :P I can't see a positive there. At most you can give perfunctory answers and hope you don't stick your foot in your mouth.
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Date: 2010-10-10 08:19 pm (UTC)Banned.)
I think the reason I don't find the fandom kerfuffles on lj that worrisome is because I've seen worse. I was on BC&S when the stupid satellite provider sent out Seeing Red before they sent Entropy, so people who were watching the show via a satellite feed or downloading - downloaded Seeing Red and saw it first, then saw Entropy, while those of us watching it on UPN and regular broadcast tv saw it in the proper order. We saw Entropy on Tuesday night. They watched Seeing Red on Monday night. Want to see a flame war? That was a flame war.
Was also online during the infamous Marti Noxon bad boyfriend interview in Starburst which hit the internet and people went nutty over. The poor woman was merely trying to promote the show to an overseas audience - they sort of have to do that to some extent, it was a low-rated cult tv series that was always on the brink of cancellation, much like Farscape and Angel were. Promote, promote, promote! Which they were constantly doing. She never lived that article down. Fans to this day hate her for it.
I remember fanboards crashing from that article and moderators deleting whole threads.
Oh and then, there was the huge fracas over Spike coming to Angel the Series and how that would ruine Angel. That flame war got so bad - Tim Minear jumped on to the Angel Soul's Board and reamed fans. LOL!
Yeah, Whedon jumped on Bronze Beta at different points, still does, mostly to promote whatever he is currently working on. He's not stupid -the moment people forget you, you will have trouble getting work. The entertainment biz is all about what have you done for me lately and how big is your audience (aka fandom). I know the publishing industry is more likely to publish someone with a huge online fanbase than an unknown quantity right now.
And Whedon has gotten into fights with fans. The most notable, was when a fan attacked Marti Noxon's writing on either Grey's Anatomy or Mad Men, and said she was to blame for all the bad writing and bad stories in Buffy, Whedon jumped on the board and nailed the fan to the wall in a snarky comment. He really reamed her. When she came back to defend, which she did. And it looked like it would get ugly, the moderator banned her. Note - this happened on the "whedonesque" board. It's really stupid to attack someone or their friends on their own fanboard. But people do it.
Still? These wars are nothing. SPN, Doctor Who, and the ones in the Sci-Fi community, not to mention on TWOPY and ACIN News - those scare even me. Which is why I tend to avoid those fandoms and boards. ;-)
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Date: 2010-10-10 08:53 pm (UTC)The only benefit there is to going to boards, IMO, is they tend to be more active. I quite like LJ where it's not quite as anonymous. It's a lot harder to establish yourself as a presence on LJ and people, from my experience, don't tend to throw it away to troll like sock puppets on boards.
It's really stupid to attack someone or their friends on their own fanboard. But people do it.
Oh, definitely. One of the most disturbing things I've ever seen online is when a Bangel attacked SMG (not her directly, of course) on her fanboard by saying she was hugely selfish for not skipping her aunt's funeral to do that one episode of AtS in S5. That was just jaw-dropping to me.
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Date: 2010-10-10 10:02 pm (UTC)I remember the big fuss and bother over SMG not agreeing to do You're Welcome - which was supposed to be a two-parter from DAMAGE. But her Aunt died and she had to hop a plane to go to Japan right afterwards for a role in the Grudge (which would pay 1 million as opposed to the measly 1000 that Fox paid, plus more exposure). I remember thinking at the time, oh come on people, you mean to tell me if it were you and you had a choice between going to do a part-time gig for an old employer which is long hours, and going to a beloved Aunt's funeral and a lucrative gig in Japan that would pay you a lot more money and you'd worked really really hard to get, you'd pick the part-time gig? I don't think so.
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Date: 2010-10-11 01:45 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-10-11 01:53 am (UTC)I don't know anything about fall sweeps or Feb sweeps. The only appearances I've read about were for the 100th which said post mentioned, she agreed to do, but she had to cancel so they went with CC at the last minute.
For 20-21 she was in Japan on Sony's dime, so schedules.
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Date: 2010-10-11 03:52 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-10-11 02:59 am (UTC)And in Feb - the Aunt died. In short, she was busy living her life and moving on and getting work, and had really no reason to go back and do a gig for some spin-off tv show with people she did not like for less money than she was getting elsewhere, also doing it wouldn't help her career in any way - she wanted to distance herself from the role. I can't say I blame her. The fans were nuts to expect it of her, particularly when they whine online about their jobs.
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Date: 2010-10-11 03:57 am (UTC)Of course she was perfectly entitled to do whatever she wanted or needed for herself. I only began really rolling my eyes about it when she started talking about how much she'd wanted to do the finale but that she'd been shut out of returning
because Fox refused her stipulations to show up. The show had offered four opportunities and she didn't have the time. By the time the finale filming had rolled around the show really deserved to focus on its own characters and not on Buffy.no subject
Date: 2010-10-11 06:02 pm (UTC)I always found the whole bit about oh, Gellar will return the favor of DB showing up in her show - hilarious. First off - DB's didn't do it for Gellar, nor was it a personal favor. He was under contract to Fox (who produced both series) and WB had made the deal with UPN, that if UPN loaned them Willow, WB would loan Angel.
The actors were under contract to Fox didn't really have any say in the matter. DB didn't do it as a personal favor. Nor was he even that busy at the time, since he was committed to Angel and trying to get Angel for a new season. Unlike Gellar whose show had ended and was doing several film committments and was not under contract to Fox or WB or UPN in any capacity, nor did she have a deal with any of those three - DB did. You know that David Boreanze had a television development deal with Fox outside of Mutant Enemy and that's why he got the Bones gig - right? He didn't have to audition for that, it was developed for him with him in mind (or at least that's what I remember the trades stating at the time), same thing was true with Alyson Hannigan (she had a development deal with whatever network is producing HIMYM), and with Eliza Dusku who had a development deal with Fox. When an actor has a development deal with a network - they are committed to give first dibs to that network, and the network is committed to give first dibs to whatever project they are involved with.
It's a wonderful thing to have. Mutant Enemy actually made fun of it in the episode that Cordy gets her own tv series. (I highly recommend renting the film The TV Set - which is a satire on what is involved in making tv shows.)
So, knowing what I know about network television and how this biz works from my friends and relatives, I'd say - she was probably telling the truth. She most likely did want to do the finale, but
she couldn't do episode 20 (which was the Girl in Question) and was filming at the same time she was in Japan on Sony's dime.
I've negotiated situations like these, I can only imagine what was going on behind the scenes. When I say the entertainment biz is a nasty biz, I'm not joking. Heck a lot of the jokes in the comics and in Whedon's tv series are obvious jabs at network brass and management in that biz.
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Date: 2010-10-11 06:22 pm (UTC)All I know is what the FOX contact we had acurately used for spoilers for the 4 years prior that that said about it at the time, and this person was always right about spoilers even six months in advance (such as Tara's death). But, of course, there's always room for miscommunication.
She most likely did want to do the finale
On she definitely wanted to do the finale. She was on Jay Leno saying so. But contract negotiations with FOX broke down over lines about salary and being prominently featured in the finale, and FOX basically going that they saw no reason to make any concessions for an actor for a show that had been cancelled.
always found the whole bit about oh, Gellar will return the favor of DB showing up in her show - hilarious. First off - DB's didn't do it for Gellar, nor was it a personal favor.
I had never thought it was a personal favor for DB or vice versa. DB and SMG had long passed the point of being chummy with one another. I was talking about it having been an internal understanding of FOX and ME's. Clearly, nothing on paper or it wouldn't have gone down the way it did at the time, but 'understanding' enough that there were several ME people openly ticked off about it.
You know that David Boreanze had a television development deal with Fox outside of Mutant Enemy and that's why he got the Bones gig - right?
Yeah. Basically. And I know that the guy hired to be DB's driver by FOX/WB didn't have anything good to say about the guy. But that's just gossip, and I don't pay much attention to it. I gathered that DB wasn't as a general rule super popular with crew for being somewhat mercurial in temperment. ::shrug::
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Date: 2010-10-11 07:26 pm (UTC)there were things going down in the negotiations that we don't know about. I know for example that Gellar had a stipulation in all her contracts that she did not do nude scenes (although I doubt that was it). But from what I've read about Fox - I think she may have had a good reason.
Boreanze? According to the people who did Smile Time ( I saw the email they sent a friend of mine who is closely associated with them) - Boreanze liked to pull practical jokes on the set. Shutting down production for hours. (If you listen closely to Adam Baldwin's commentary, you hear him state he found the lack of professionalism on the set to be irritating. And that was certainly in evidence - when you see the gaff's.) I think during Smile Time production - he literally pulled a fire alarm or something like that. Gossip? Possibly. I know he didn't like doing Angel. It was stifling, according to interviews, because he had no input on the character, no ability to improve, and it was basically acting like a robot. Vincent Karthaiser more or less said the same thing.
There's lots of gossip though about Charisma, David, Gellar,
Hannigan, Dusku, and Brendan floating around. The others not so much. Marsters managed to get along with most everyone, as did Caulfield, Benze, and the other more supporting players. (If you think DB had a bad rep, CC had even worse one according to some of my friends. But I don't know what really happened. My guess is this is no different than any other workplace - you have people you dislike and who dislike you. The only difference? Is if we don't like the guy who shares our cubicle wall - all we have to do is deal with them at the printer and over hear their conversations.
If they don't like the guy or gal they work with - they have to kiss them, act madly in love with them, get naked with them, pretend to fight or make out with them, and then go on press junkets and pretend to everyone in the world that this guy they can't stand is their best buddy! (Can you imagine doing that? Pretending that you adore someone who you can't stand? And worrying that if you screw up and let it drop that you don't like them - you'll never work again? Ugh.)
Sigh. I've inherited my mother's bad habit, gossip about tv and movie stars behaving badly behind the camera on tv shows intrigues me for some reason. LOL!
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Date: 2010-10-11 07:34 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-10-13 02:31 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-10-13 03:03 am (UTC)He's amazing on Mad Men. But he's also an excellent actor who also hated his story on Angel, yet it never showed, he completely sold it.
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Date: 2010-10-13 03:34 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-10-12 12:56 am (UTC)Re: DB the way it was described to me (as I remember it. It was years ago now so I'm giving a rough memory of it)
SMG was considered to be relatively high maintenance. Like a lot of celebrities who have their list of "and this must be done..." she had a bunch of those, but this crew member said that she was consistent and she was also always on time, on mark, and prepared so was considered to be quite professional. As a contrast (and it was presented to me in this sort of comparison/contrast) with DB they had no idea who he was gonna be from day to day. He could vere from fun guy to be around to obnoxious jerk who had a string of demands no one could anticipate. This made this staff person prefer to work with SMG as opposed to DB because at least it was always possible to anticipate how SMG was going to react to things. With DB it was impossible to know.
The filming of the Buffy/Angel scenes in "Forever" was supposedly a nightmare for the crew as relations between SMG/and DB were extremely chilly at that time. (Relations were apparently better during the EoD filming.
Never had a real knowledge of what exactly went down with CC. The word attached to her by the source was "erratic." Don't know how really, or why. They just always said that on AtS she became "erratic."
I did always think it was quite unfair how much of the fandom blamed JM for CC being let go. The rumors (not even back stage. Just out in the open, things Minear and Bell said in public) had been going around for two years prior to that that there were back stage issues involved. I distinctly remember Minear and Bell talking during Season 3 that there was a very, very real possibility that CC wouldn't be back for Season 4. So whatever it was going on had been going on for a while.
The crew guy basically listed as "most beloved by the crew" (because they were considerate of crew) were Amy Acker, Amber Bensen, and James Marsters. Some were considered "very professional"... and then you had a couple of others.
Poor Nick Brendan always kind of got the "he has troubles" rap. The problems with his drug and alcohol addiction (since admitted) were around in the BtVS years.
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Date: 2010-10-12 10:35 pm (UTC)did always think it was quite unfair how much of the fandom blamed JM for CC being let go. The rumors (not even back stage. Just out in the open, things Minear and Bell said in public) had been going around for two years prior to that that there were back stage issues involved. I distinctly remember Minear and Bell talking during Season 3 that there was a very, very real possibility that CC wouldn't be back for Season 4. So whatever it was going on had been going on for a while.
Thank you. Was beginning to think I was the only one who remembered that. I keep getting into fights with CC shippers who believe the gossip that Whedon fired CC because she was pregnant and screwed up his storyline in S4, when in reality the network and producers were planning on firing her in S3.
What they don't know is the producers (not Whedon, one's above Whedon or in partnership with), Fox, and the network - had wanted to release her at the end of S3. Greenwalt even wrote her neatly out of Angel, with a possibility of returning - should anyone change the network's mind. I remember fans doing a massive letter writing campaign to bring her back in S4 (which CC stated at the time saved her character, it didn't. They even took out an ad, I think - it was a long time ago. Letter campaigns rarely work - except in a few isolated situations - such as Farscape and Cagney and Lacey.) At any rate, Whedon apparently did not like how Greenwalt wrapped up Cordelia's arc - St. Cordy raising up and becoming a God did not fit with Whedon's world-view. So he came up with a great counter-point to that and convinced the network to let her stay one more season and to let her come back for the 100th episode, when he couldn't get Gellar.
Feel a bit sorry for the writers here - you are writing a story, but you are constantly at the mercy of actors, networks, producers - all these people who refuse to cooperate. They probably spend more time negotiating than they spend actually writing. From what Espenson said - show-running was hard, because you didn't get to write that much, you spend most of your time keeping everyone in line. Collaborations aren't easy things.
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Date: 2010-10-13 02:29 am (UTC)That said, I cannot pretend to have liked Whedon's plot of possessed Cordy in Season 4. In fact, I rather hated it. It's one thing to have issues with an actress, but sheesh, don't destroy your own characters in a fairly un entertaining way. I don't know much of anything about CC and whatever were her issues, but the character of Cordy didn't deserve that.
(no subject)
From:no subject
Date: 2010-10-13 04:00 am (UTC)Of course, I didn't actually realize it was the real David Fury at that time. I wasn't familiar with the Bronze and with his asshole behavior I honest to God thought he was just an obnoxious board troll. I didn't realize until later, when someone else told me, that that had really been a writer from the show. At that time, I couldn't imagine a show representative behaving that unprofessionally.
no subject
Date: 2010-10-10 05:09 pm (UTC)I read this, and immediately my mind flashed to
BELLA: Oh hell yes, we’re totally in Romeo and Juliet terms now. AWESOME.
EDWARD: Anyway I get hungry a lot but I don’t like being away from you when I have to suck the blood out of cute animals. I miss you.
THOUSANDS OF THIRTEEN YEAR OLD GIRLS: HE’S LIKE THE PERFECT MAN I LOVE HIM.
Oh! And (because I couldn't stop reading) this bit too:
EDWARD: So I’m going to eat more cute animals tonight. You know, for your protection.
THIRTEEN YEAR OLD FANGIRLS: THAT IS SO ROMANTIC!
EDWARD: Life is very hard for me because me being with you is incredibly selfish and dangerous and my family doesn’t understand because they have actual logic.
BELLA: You poor thing! I want to comfort you and make all your pain go away!
THIRTEEN YEAR OLD FANGIRLS: THAT IS SO ROMANTIC!
[...]
BELLA: Gosh everything is so intense and I could never cut Edward out of my life because my life is ABOUT him.
THIRTEEN YEAR OLD FANGIRLS: THAT IS SO ROMANTIC!
[...]
EDWARD: NO NO NO I’M A PREDATOR AND I AM SUCKING YOU IN. But don’t be scared I swear not to hurt you ever.
THIRTEEN YEAR OLD FANGIRLS: THAT IS SO ROMANTIC!
There's more, but I've *got* to back away from the computer. Just... are we sure Joss hasn't been replaced by a 13 year old fangirl?
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Date: 2010-10-10 06:38 pm (UTC)I think Whedon is making fun and mocking 13 year old girls. (Which I have mixed feelings about. IDW is catering to 13 year old boys, and DH is mocking 13 year old girls...what a world.)
Buffy #37: Miss Kitty <s>Fantastico</s> Twilight Strikes Back.
Date: 2010-10-10 12:30 pm (UTC)FantasticoTwilight Strikes Back. (http://moscow-watcher.livejournal.com/87999.html) saying: [...] by (Spuffy scenes only); review [...]Re: Buffy #37: Miss Kitty <s>Fantastico</s> Twilight Strikes Back.
Date: 2010-10-10 01:29 pm (UTC)What moscow_watcher said was review by "angeria" (spuffy scenes only) ; review by shadowkat.
There was the ever important "semi-colon" between the reviews.