Initial thoughts on ATS 5.7
Nov. 13th, 2003 12:46 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
shadowkatInteresting episode. Really enjoyed it.
But then I love Wes. Apparently more than WB exec's or whomever did that promo trailer think the audience does. From the promo - you wouldn't know it was a Wes episode.
Drew Goddard is an interesting writer. He is fantastic with the dark/agnsty bits, but horrid at humor. I've come to the conclusion that the bits and pieces of the Drew episodes I had difficulty and/or reservations with were his attempts at humor.
Selfless was one of his few complete masterpieces, but there was very little attempt at humor there.
Also the humor was relegated to two person scenes - such as Xander and Buffy hunting the spider demon.
Same with Dirty Girls - Spike/Faith had splashes of humor. But the bits with Xander and SIT's, and Andrew and Faith and SIT's seemed off. Wondering if Drew is better when writing for just two people??
Take tonight's episode for example: great scenes between Wes/Angel, Wes/Roger, Wes/Fred, Spike/Eve,
Spike/Wes, Spike/Gun, but when we had them in a group? Shaky. The scene where Spike pops up in front of Wes to mention head boy just seemed off for both Spike and Wes. It didn't play. OTOH - the scene with Spike and Roger? Brilliant. Same with Roger/Angel/Wes. Hmmm...maybe I'm being too nit-picky. I put it down to stress. Especially since the tv show I watched before (Smallville - please kill the Lana, please?) and after (Karen Sisco - is it just me or did Karen have more chemistry with the lady cop than any of the men she's slept with? Odd. Want more of the lady cop, also more of Dad's sideline deals - please?) did not come close to equaling the delicious writing of Angel.
Wes. I didn't realize how much I missed Wes until this episode. Ah. Finally. The best Wes scenes since Home, and possibly the best Wes episode since the Faith arc last season. Roy Dotrice as Roger was spot-on perfect. Perhaps they'll bring him back when Wes' father really visits?? Would love to see Roger and Giles interact. Roger was reminiscent of Quentin Travers played by the wonderful Haris Yulin.
Maybe it's just me, but not getting the Fred/Wes chemistry. At least not as much as last year. Not sure why. Is it Fred? Is it because of the memory wipe?
Speaking of the memory-wipe - some interesting references to it in this episode, which lead me to believe my theory that the memory-wipe set up a mirror universe just like Angel's actions in IWRY
did is "right on" target.
1. Wes refers to Lilah's death by stabbing or an ex-girlfriend's death by stabbing. He states a higher power decided to do it. This is in keeping with the whole Jasmine arc. Leading me to believe Wes remembers Lilah and Jasmine. Or some variation on that.
2. Eve mentions to Angel that Wes and Company don't remember anything that has to do with "Connor" directly.
3. As scrollgirl noted on Atpo a few weeks back, Wes no longer has his scar. So apparently physical representations of Connor have been eradicated as well.
Yet, Angel still remembers Connor and appears to be punishing Wes still for what happened to his son.
Angel in 5.6 mentions somewhat sardonically the "father will kill the son" prophecy to Wes, and is taken aback when he realizes Wes doesn't remember it. In 5.7, Angel comes down harshly on Wes when Fred gets hurt. Angel treats Wes, oddly enough, in the exact same way Roger does and even more interesting - how Angel's father used to treat him and how Angel treated Connor. Eve points out afterwards that perhaps Angel came down too harshly on Wes because he still blames him for something that Wes can't remember and as far as Wes is concerned never happened.
This leads me to believe that Angel's deal with W&H was to set up a mirror world where Connor lived with a normal family and had nothing to do with the events of S3-S4. Those events still happened. Wes turned dark. Lilah was killed by Cordy. Cordy had Jasmine and went into a coma. The only thing not in the mix is Connor. Angel basically erased Connor.
Sort of the reverse of the monks inserting Dawn into the SG's memories. Confusing as hell - wonder
if the writers can make it work? Dawn in some respects was much easier. Connor's existence so strongly affects Wes and Cordelia's story lines, that removing him completely means you have to come up with an alternative storyline to explain Wes and Cordy. So what alternative story did they come up with? And what happens when Wes or anyone else realizes it's false? Assuming they do?
Will. Once again the writers bring up the whole idea of free will. A nice reversal here - instead of Angel giving everyone back their free will, killing his grandchild and son to do so, we have Wes killing his father to give Angel back his will.
But that's not the end of it. These writers are clearly fans of MC Escher, heck Drew Goddard even references Escher in the script - Fred mentions the artist. Because the next level is Wes kills Roger to save Fred, just as Angel is forced to kill Connor to save Cordelia. Yet Wes doesn't really kill Roger - Roger exists safely in the bosom of his home, not knowing anything about it, just as Connor exists safely in the bosom of his new home, not knowing anything. Both are false kills.
Does the writer stop there? Nooo. Goddard adds a little more - he compares Spike and Angel's histories with their parents to Wes. Angel attempts to commiserate with Wes over killing his father - stating that he killed his own father - first thing he did as a vampire. Then we get Spike - who mentions the siring of his mother, then staking of her when she tried to shag him. These two stories nicely bracket Wes' issues in the piece - saving Fred (den mother) yet losing her to someone else and killing Roger (cyborg father). It also brackets Angel's issues involving his son Connor - who slept with his surrogate mother (Cordelia), tried to kill his father (Angel) and Angel ended up killing and restoring to a new life (not unlike a vampire kills and restores someone to a new life).
My only difficulty with the episode was Gunn and Lorne who seem ill-used somehow. I'm beginning to worry about how the writers see Gunn, they don't appear to know what to do with him. Last year Gunn had some great moments. Now he seems sort of out of place somehow. I'm hoping this will be rememdied soon. Gunn is a fantastic character with loads of potential - I do not understand why they can't do more with him. (BTW if you decide to comment on this by blaming Spike for Gunn's or anyone else's lack of use? I will delete your comment. So save us both some grief and don't do it. Thanks.)
Lineage? Right now 9/10, possibly 8.5 due to the lackluster comic moments and the poor use of Gunn.
I think Gunn was better used in Hellbound and
Numero Cinquo. Actually Numero Cinquo might be the episode that used all six characters the best so far. That said - it's been far too long since I had a Wes centric episode. (I admit it - Wes, Giles, Angel, and Spike are my favorite male characters on TV. No one surpasses them.) So I'm willing to forgive Goddard the flaws and give the episode a 9
just for the wonderful Wes scenes. It might be a while until we get more.
But then I love Wes. Apparently more than WB exec's or whomever did that promo trailer think the audience does. From the promo - you wouldn't know it was a Wes episode.
Drew Goddard is an interesting writer. He is fantastic with the dark/agnsty bits, but horrid at humor. I've come to the conclusion that the bits and pieces of the Drew episodes I had difficulty and/or reservations with were his attempts at humor.
Selfless was one of his few complete masterpieces, but there was very little attempt at humor there.
Also the humor was relegated to two person scenes - such as Xander and Buffy hunting the spider demon.
Same with Dirty Girls - Spike/Faith had splashes of humor. But the bits with Xander and SIT's, and Andrew and Faith and SIT's seemed off. Wondering if Drew is better when writing for just two people??
Take tonight's episode for example: great scenes between Wes/Angel, Wes/Roger, Wes/Fred, Spike/Eve,
Spike/Wes, Spike/Gun, but when we had them in a group? Shaky. The scene where Spike pops up in front of Wes to mention head boy just seemed off for both Spike and Wes. It didn't play. OTOH - the scene with Spike and Roger? Brilliant. Same with Roger/Angel/Wes. Hmmm...maybe I'm being too nit-picky. I put it down to stress. Especially since the tv show I watched before (Smallville - please kill the Lana, please?) and after (Karen Sisco - is it just me or did Karen have more chemistry with the lady cop than any of the men she's slept with? Odd. Want more of the lady cop, also more of Dad's sideline deals - please?) did not come close to equaling the delicious writing of Angel.
Wes. I didn't realize how much I missed Wes until this episode. Ah. Finally. The best Wes scenes since Home, and possibly the best Wes episode since the Faith arc last season. Roy Dotrice as Roger was spot-on perfect. Perhaps they'll bring him back when Wes' father really visits?? Would love to see Roger and Giles interact. Roger was reminiscent of Quentin Travers played by the wonderful Haris Yulin.
Maybe it's just me, but not getting the Fred/Wes chemistry. At least not as much as last year. Not sure why. Is it Fred? Is it because of the memory wipe?
Speaking of the memory-wipe - some interesting references to it in this episode, which lead me to believe my theory that the memory-wipe set up a mirror universe just like Angel's actions in IWRY
did is "right on" target.
1. Wes refers to Lilah's death by stabbing or an ex-girlfriend's death by stabbing. He states a higher power decided to do it. This is in keeping with the whole Jasmine arc. Leading me to believe Wes remembers Lilah and Jasmine. Or some variation on that.
2. Eve mentions to Angel that Wes and Company don't remember anything that has to do with "Connor" directly.
3. As scrollgirl noted on Atpo a few weeks back, Wes no longer has his scar. So apparently physical representations of Connor have been eradicated as well.
Yet, Angel still remembers Connor and appears to be punishing Wes still for what happened to his son.
Angel in 5.6 mentions somewhat sardonically the "father will kill the son" prophecy to Wes, and is taken aback when he realizes Wes doesn't remember it. In 5.7, Angel comes down harshly on Wes when Fred gets hurt. Angel treats Wes, oddly enough, in the exact same way Roger does and even more interesting - how Angel's father used to treat him and how Angel treated Connor. Eve points out afterwards that perhaps Angel came down too harshly on Wes because he still blames him for something that Wes can't remember and as far as Wes is concerned never happened.
This leads me to believe that Angel's deal with W&H was to set up a mirror world where Connor lived with a normal family and had nothing to do with the events of S3-S4. Those events still happened. Wes turned dark. Lilah was killed by Cordy. Cordy had Jasmine and went into a coma. The only thing not in the mix is Connor. Angel basically erased Connor.
Sort of the reverse of the monks inserting Dawn into the SG's memories. Confusing as hell - wonder
if the writers can make it work? Dawn in some respects was much easier. Connor's existence so strongly affects Wes and Cordelia's story lines, that removing him completely means you have to come up with an alternative storyline to explain Wes and Cordy. So what alternative story did they come up with? And what happens when Wes or anyone else realizes it's false? Assuming they do?
Will. Once again the writers bring up the whole idea of free will. A nice reversal here - instead of Angel giving everyone back their free will, killing his grandchild and son to do so, we have Wes killing his father to give Angel back his will.
But that's not the end of it. These writers are clearly fans of MC Escher, heck Drew Goddard even references Escher in the script - Fred mentions the artist. Because the next level is Wes kills Roger to save Fred, just as Angel is forced to kill Connor to save Cordelia. Yet Wes doesn't really kill Roger - Roger exists safely in the bosom of his home, not knowing anything about it, just as Connor exists safely in the bosom of his new home, not knowing anything. Both are false kills.
Does the writer stop there? Nooo. Goddard adds a little more - he compares Spike and Angel's histories with their parents to Wes. Angel attempts to commiserate with Wes over killing his father - stating that he killed his own father - first thing he did as a vampire. Then we get Spike - who mentions the siring of his mother, then staking of her when she tried to shag him. These two stories nicely bracket Wes' issues in the piece - saving Fred (den mother) yet losing her to someone else and killing Roger (cyborg father). It also brackets Angel's issues involving his son Connor - who slept with his surrogate mother (Cordelia), tried to kill his father (Angel) and Angel ended up killing and restoring to a new life (not unlike a vampire kills and restores someone to a new life).
My only difficulty with the episode was Gunn and Lorne who seem ill-used somehow. I'm beginning to worry about how the writers see Gunn, they don't appear to know what to do with him. Last year Gunn had some great moments. Now he seems sort of out of place somehow. I'm hoping this will be rememdied soon. Gunn is a fantastic character with loads of potential - I do not understand why they can't do more with him. (BTW if you decide to comment on this by blaming Spike for Gunn's or anyone else's lack of use? I will delete your comment. So save us both some grief and don't do it. Thanks.)
Lineage? Right now 9/10, possibly 8.5 due to the lackluster comic moments and the poor use of Gunn.
I think Gunn was better used in Hellbound and
Numero Cinquo. Actually Numero Cinquo might be the episode that used all six characters the best so far. That said - it's been far too long since I had a Wes centric episode. (I admit it - Wes, Giles, Angel, and Spike are my favorite male characters on TV. No one surpasses them.) So I'm willing to forgive Goddard the flaws and give the episode a 9
just for the wonderful Wes scenes. It might be a while until we get more.
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Um... a favor?
Date: 2003-11-13 09:37 am (UTC)"Lineage" review
Date: 2003-11-13 09:57 am (UTC)I was expecting a more thorough exploration of the Angel/Wes dynamic, and that first scene with Wes, Angel, and Eve got my hopes up. I was inevitably disappointed. In retrospect, it's clear that Goddard was deliberately playing up the parallels with "Billy," and showing how the mindwipe practically invites a sense of deju vu in terms of how the Fang Gang inter-relates this season.
But that still doesn't remove my sense of weariness about the whole Fred/Wes relationship; it doesn't make me feel any more enthusiastic about Eve, the cyberninjas (I don't see the metaphorical goodness in them that Alice did), or the uneven Spike scenes. But hey, that's only my opinion. If anybody can convince me I'm wrong, it's you.
J.
Re: "Lineage" review
Date: 2003-11-13 12:50 pm (UTC)board with lots of tweaking. Don't know if it convinced anyone or not. ;-)
But that still doesn't remove my sense of weariness about the whole Fred/Wes relationship; it doesn't make me feel any more enthusiastic about Eve, the cyberninjas (I don't see the metaphorical goodness in them that Alice did), or the uneven Spike scenes.
Agree with you on Fred/Wes and Eve. Spike had more chemistry with Eve than Fred had with Wes and considering the fact that I don't think Eve has chemistry with anyone - that's saying a lot.
On the cyberninjas - there is a very interesting metaphor going on there. They were once human, but opted to give up free will to become puppets for a larger organization. Wes comments on how they are human too. The cyberninjas are in effect metaphors for several things: Angel and the AI gang's use by Jasmine and PTB, by Cordelia, by W&H as puppets, Wes' relationship with both Rodger and the Watcher Council,
Rodger's relationship with the Council, and vampires relationship to the demon in them. They may seem cheesy on one level (remember these writers love video games and B horror movie/action flicks) while on another level they do pose a great metaphor for the dilemma Angel is wrestling with - is he just a puppet to someone else's (Destiny's) whim or his own agent?
A prospect that would make anyone a bit nauseaus. Speaking of which - Wes in Sacrifice notes how he misses being JAsmine's puppet, here he is literally nauseaus killing his father and going against the grain.
Agree about the weakness (floating reply)
Date: 2003-11-13 10:23 am (UTC)My theory is this isn't going anywhere. In fact, I speculate elsewhere (
it doesn't make me feel any more enthusiastic about Eve
Eve should die. Soon. Be used as a human sacrifice in a spell to re-animate Lilah.
the cyberninjas (I don't see the metaphorical goodness in them that Alice did)
Me neither. Yet. Sometimes I change my mind about this after I do my episode analysis. But in a season where ME is trying to do monster-of-the-week eps, they need better monsters. So far they have almost all been lame (hulk!Lorne, the tacky looking Aztec demon, the cyberninjas). Nina was OK, but werewolves have SO already been done a hundred times. The human baddies in Conviction and Hellbound (ghost human baddy) were the best so far.
the uneven Spike scenes
Has anyone written Spike well so far this season? JM has acted himself out of some of it, and his early dilemma with the hell thing was interesting, but now he's just background one-liner no-plot guy. I believe firmly they have a lot in mind for him to do, but for the past few eps, they've just had to find things to justify his inclusion in the credits, and it's been pretty lame stuff.
Re: Agree about the weakness (floating reply)
Date: 2003-11-13 01:03 pm (UTC)Hmmm. I like this. Could fit with Rodger's discussion of Wes attempting to reanimate a bird at one point.
I completely agree, not fond of Eve. I really wish they'd found someone a bit stronger for this role, someone like Monica Bacarrin or Stephanie Romanov.
But in a season where ME is trying to do monster-of-the-week eps, they need better monsters. So far they have almost all been lame (hulk!Lorne, the tacky looking Aztec demon, the cyberninjas). Nina was OK, but werewolves have SO already been done a hundred times. The human baddies in Conviction and Hellbound (ghost human baddy) were the best so far.
Oddly enough I preferred the ninjas to Nina. Why? Less obvious metaphor. Nina is "Angel's beast locked inside". The cyberninjas are about giving up your will to be someone else's puppet - letting someone else pull your strings or destroy you as warranted. This speaks directly to Connor - who felt like he was everyone's puppet and who Angel in a sense destroyed and re-programmed in Home.
Do agree - the human baddies in Conviction and Hellbound were the best. Although I did sort of like Hainsely in Just Rewards.
Has anyone written Spike well so far this season?
I'd say Deknight and Bell did pretty good jobs in Hellbound and TCONC, also Fury/Edlund weren't bad in Just Rewards.
But I agree the writing seems uneven on him. I've found a way to fanwank it - I think they may be deliberately writing him in this manner, a)to keep him unpredictable (sorry not working) and b)to show that the bravado and snarkiness is a show or act - and getting more and more forced. He could do it better without the soul. But now, his heart isn't in it and it's coming across weirdly.
Re: Agree about the weakness (floating reply)
Date: 2003-11-13 01:49 pm (UTC)Well, I can understand that. He's trapped at Wolfram and Hart, trapped with grandsire Angel(us) when he no doubt wants to be free to do what he wants and go where he will (probably seek out Buffy).
But he's trying not to reveal too much of his disgruntlement in front of the others, trying not to be too snarky/complaining about his circumstances because he's still uncertain of why he's there and W&H seem to have eyes and ears everywhere.
Don't reveal too much of what's really going on with you.
How's that for a fan-wank?
Re: Um... a favor?
Date: 2003-11-13 12:39 pm (UTC)journal entry on the ATPO board. So far only Claudia
seems to have noticed it.
Re: Um... a favor?
Date: 2003-11-13 02:31 pm (UTC)Re: Um... a favor?
Date: 2003-11-13 08:54 pm (UTC)The other person who did a bit of analysis on ninja-bots was pumpkinpuss on the ATPO board, right under
cjl's thread. But she didn't link them to free will exactly. She and JM did do a great job of explaining and justifying Spike's behavior in the episode, to the point that they actually changed my mind and made re-think a few things about Wes and Spike.
Re: Um... a favor?
Date: 2003-11-14 09:00 am (UTC)Re: Um... a favor?
Date: 2003-11-14 04:09 am (UTC)Fred: "Oh, we're taking the cyborg apart in the lab right now. You should see how intricate it is...it's like an MC Escher picture, but with wires and flesh instead of geese."
I think of "Liberation" and "Day and Night".
Also what Fred said about the composition of the Ninja cyborgs is creepy...
Fred: "We found cybernetics throughout the body in most cases, replacing entire organic systems..........
Angel: Was is human?
Fred: "We think so, the nervous system seems human at least, but the rest of the technology is so foreign to us, we can't be sure of anything right now. This thing really blurs the line between human and robot."
then she says....
Fred: "Um...the cybernetics require central processing to function wich means if we can crack its memory we may find a record of everything it's done till this point?
So, why are people ignoring the electric man? Wonder if the one Wesley did the torture thing on will be something that surfaces later? Also, wonder when the whole memory wipe will be cracked?
Rufus, who does pay attention
Cyberninjas
Date: 2003-11-15 09:06 pm (UTC)As S'kat says, I didn't make the connection to the free-will issues, but was thinking more along the lines of the emotional parallels to Angel's current malaise/sitch. The cyberninjas were people originally, but now they're just shells for robotics that control what they do. They're all about the mission, without any heart or hope: puppets of something bigger, more powerful, or just something with more drive, desire, or conviction behind it. Notice that the cyberninjas have double masks, the black commando headgear and then the metallic face plates. More mask symbolism, also about Angel and the dark side (Angelus) he denies and hides away.
Thinking more about this, I'm struck by how many robot hybrid references have been made recently:
LoTP:
-The "handheld spell-casting robot" malfunctions on Angel's mission.
-Wes notes to Fred that these "techno-mystical hybrids" are tricky. (While Knox insists that it's really quite simple.)
-When Knox comes by after the party he tells Fred that he's fixed "their baby" which startles or befuddles her at first.
Hell Bound:
-Okay, this is a stretch, but isn't the now-corporeal Pavayne a techno-mystical hybrid? Fred used technology AND mystical mojo to corporealize him.
TCToNC:
-El Diablo Robotico references
Lineage:
-The cyberninjas are techno/human hybrids, Robocop 2.0.
-Spike's offhand remark about robots & people having offspring, which sounds so off-the-wall and pretty dumb, but garners a pointed look from Eve.
Leslie at ATP has suggested that Eve might be a robot of some kind.
Is this where ME is going with Eve? Or is it something else? Or just coincidence?
Alice/punkinpuss
Great thoughts!!
Date: 2003-11-15 09:51 pm (UTC)-The "handheld spell-casting robot" malfunctions on Angel's mission.
-Wes notes to Fred that these "techno-mystical hybrids" are tricky. (While Knox insists that it's really quite simple.)
-When Knox comes by after the party he tells Fred that he's fixed "their baby" which startles or befuddles her at first.
Hell Bound:
-Okay, this is a stretch, but isn't the now-corporeal Pavayne a techno-mystical hybrid? Fred used technology AND mystical mojo to corporealize him.
TCToNC:
-El Diablo Robotico references
Lineage:
-The cyberninjas are techno/human hybrids, Robocop 2.0.
-Spike's offhand remark about robots & people having offspring, which sounds so off-the-wall and pretty dumb, but garners a pointed look from Eve."
All those references hadn't occurred to me. But there is a definite trend. Plus we have Fred describe them as MC ESCHER in design - like the geese picture I mention in another entry - where you don't know if the geese are becoming fish or the fish or becoming geese or neither.
Could robots be a metaphor for how Angel feels about his current state? Hollow?
Babies, family issues
Date: 2003-11-17 10:52 am (UTC)See, that's why you need to finish Dunnett's Lymond Chronicles! The last few books have an arc that deals with so many of these same themes (Pawn in Frankincense, Ringed Castle, and Checkmate). It's fascinating stuff. I don't expect ME to do anything as complicated (because they can't within the constraints of a weekly tv show) as what Dunnett did, but they are touching on so many common themes it's impossible not to draw comparisons.
punkinpuss
Re: Babies, family issues
Date: 2003-11-17 12:05 pm (UTC)Dunnett doesn't exactly promote fast reading. ;-)
Yes, I can see the robots and procreation metaphor for Connor. Connor in a way was created by mystical forces and used as a puppet for their ends. Did Connor have free will?
Or did he become nothing more than a puppet? Or did he allow himself to become just a puppet?
Contrast Connor (the human son with vampire abilities, but no vampire impulses) with Spike (the vampire son with human qualities) - Connor has a tendency to let others steer him, he doesn't believe in magic or fate, yet he lets Holtz/Justine/Cordelia and Jasmine steer his destiney.
Spike equally persistent, doesn't believe in magic or fate, but doesn't really let others tell him what to do.
He's more unpredictable. I keep remembering what ghost!Darla told Connor - "you have a choice and that's the most important thing in the world". Connor chose to follow Cordy and Jasmine, no matter what. Does that make him robot like? Not really. He knew what Jasmine was. The others who followed her were far more robotic, since they did it blindly. So were the cyberninjas like Connor - volutarily following, of own free choice, or like the others - conscripted?