Initial thoughts on ATS 5.7
Nov. 13th, 2003 12:46 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
shadowkatInteresting episode. Really enjoyed it.
But then I love Wes. Apparently more than WB exec's or whomever did that promo trailer think the audience does. From the promo - you wouldn't know it was a Wes episode.
Drew Goddard is an interesting writer. He is fantastic with the dark/agnsty bits, but horrid at humor. I've come to the conclusion that the bits and pieces of the Drew episodes I had difficulty and/or reservations with were his attempts at humor.
Selfless was one of his few complete masterpieces, but there was very little attempt at humor there.
Also the humor was relegated to two person scenes - such as Xander and Buffy hunting the spider demon.
Same with Dirty Girls - Spike/Faith had splashes of humor. But the bits with Xander and SIT's, and Andrew and Faith and SIT's seemed off. Wondering if Drew is better when writing for just two people??
Take tonight's episode for example: great scenes between Wes/Angel, Wes/Roger, Wes/Fred, Spike/Eve,
Spike/Wes, Spike/Gun, but when we had them in a group? Shaky. The scene where Spike pops up in front of Wes to mention head boy just seemed off for both Spike and Wes. It didn't play. OTOH - the scene with Spike and Roger? Brilliant. Same with Roger/Angel/Wes. Hmmm...maybe I'm being too nit-picky. I put it down to stress. Especially since the tv show I watched before (Smallville - please kill the Lana, please?) and after (Karen Sisco - is it just me or did Karen have more chemistry with the lady cop than any of the men she's slept with? Odd. Want more of the lady cop, also more of Dad's sideline deals - please?) did not come close to equaling the delicious writing of Angel.
Wes. I didn't realize how much I missed Wes until this episode. Ah. Finally. The best Wes scenes since Home, and possibly the best Wes episode since the Faith arc last season. Roy Dotrice as Roger was spot-on perfect. Perhaps they'll bring him back when Wes' father really visits?? Would love to see Roger and Giles interact. Roger was reminiscent of Quentin Travers played by the wonderful Haris Yulin.
Maybe it's just me, but not getting the Fred/Wes chemistry. At least not as much as last year. Not sure why. Is it Fred? Is it because of the memory wipe?
Speaking of the memory-wipe - some interesting references to it in this episode, which lead me to believe my theory that the memory-wipe set up a mirror universe just like Angel's actions in IWRY
did is "right on" target.
1. Wes refers to Lilah's death by stabbing or an ex-girlfriend's death by stabbing. He states a higher power decided to do it. This is in keeping with the whole Jasmine arc. Leading me to believe Wes remembers Lilah and Jasmine. Or some variation on that.
2. Eve mentions to Angel that Wes and Company don't remember anything that has to do with "Connor" directly.
3. As scrollgirl noted on Atpo a few weeks back, Wes no longer has his scar. So apparently physical representations of Connor have been eradicated as well.
Yet, Angel still remembers Connor and appears to be punishing Wes still for what happened to his son.
Angel in 5.6 mentions somewhat sardonically the "father will kill the son" prophecy to Wes, and is taken aback when he realizes Wes doesn't remember it. In 5.7, Angel comes down harshly on Wes when Fred gets hurt. Angel treats Wes, oddly enough, in the exact same way Roger does and even more interesting - how Angel's father used to treat him and how Angel treated Connor. Eve points out afterwards that perhaps Angel came down too harshly on Wes because he still blames him for something that Wes can't remember and as far as Wes is concerned never happened.
This leads me to believe that Angel's deal with W&H was to set up a mirror world where Connor lived with a normal family and had nothing to do with the events of S3-S4. Those events still happened. Wes turned dark. Lilah was killed by Cordy. Cordy had Jasmine and went into a coma. The only thing not in the mix is Connor. Angel basically erased Connor.
Sort of the reverse of the monks inserting Dawn into the SG's memories. Confusing as hell - wonder
if the writers can make it work? Dawn in some respects was much easier. Connor's existence so strongly affects Wes and Cordelia's story lines, that removing him completely means you have to come up with an alternative storyline to explain Wes and Cordy. So what alternative story did they come up with? And what happens when Wes or anyone else realizes it's false? Assuming they do?
Will. Once again the writers bring up the whole idea of free will. A nice reversal here - instead of Angel giving everyone back their free will, killing his grandchild and son to do so, we have Wes killing his father to give Angel back his will.
But that's not the end of it. These writers are clearly fans of MC Escher, heck Drew Goddard even references Escher in the script - Fred mentions the artist. Because the next level is Wes kills Roger to save Fred, just as Angel is forced to kill Connor to save Cordelia. Yet Wes doesn't really kill Roger - Roger exists safely in the bosom of his home, not knowing anything about it, just as Connor exists safely in the bosom of his new home, not knowing anything. Both are false kills.
Does the writer stop there? Nooo. Goddard adds a little more - he compares Spike and Angel's histories with their parents to Wes. Angel attempts to commiserate with Wes over killing his father - stating that he killed his own father - first thing he did as a vampire. Then we get Spike - who mentions the siring of his mother, then staking of her when she tried to shag him. These two stories nicely bracket Wes' issues in the piece - saving Fred (den mother) yet losing her to someone else and killing Roger (cyborg father). It also brackets Angel's issues involving his son Connor - who slept with his surrogate mother (Cordelia), tried to kill his father (Angel) and Angel ended up killing and restoring to a new life (not unlike a vampire kills and restores someone to a new life).
My only difficulty with the episode was Gunn and Lorne who seem ill-used somehow. I'm beginning to worry about how the writers see Gunn, they don't appear to know what to do with him. Last year Gunn had some great moments. Now he seems sort of out of place somehow. I'm hoping this will be rememdied soon. Gunn is a fantastic character with loads of potential - I do not understand why they can't do more with him. (BTW if you decide to comment on this by blaming Spike for Gunn's or anyone else's lack of use? I will delete your comment. So save us both some grief and don't do it. Thanks.)
Lineage? Right now 9/10, possibly 8.5 due to the lackluster comic moments and the poor use of Gunn.
I think Gunn was better used in Hellbound and
Numero Cinquo. Actually Numero Cinquo might be the episode that used all six characters the best so far. That said - it's been far too long since I had a Wes centric episode. (I admit it - Wes, Giles, Angel, and Spike are my favorite male characters on TV. No one surpasses them.) So I'm willing to forgive Goddard the flaws and give the episode a 9
just for the wonderful Wes scenes. It might be a while until we get more.
But then I love Wes. Apparently more than WB exec's or whomever did that promo trailer think the audience does. From the promo - you wouldn't know it was a Wes episode.
Drew Goddard is an interesting writer. He is fantastic with the dark/agnsty bits, but horrid at humor. I've come to the conclusion that the bits and pieces of the Drew episodes I had difficulty and/or reservations with were his attempts at humor.
Selfless was one of his few complete masterpieces, but there was very little attempt at humor there.
Also the humor was relegated to two person scenes - such as Xander and Buffy hunting the spider demon.
Same with Dirty Girls - Spike/Faith had splashes of humor. But the bits with Xander and SIT's, and Andrew and Faith and SIT's seemed off. Wondering if Drew is better when writing for just two people??
Take tonight's episode for example: great scenes between Wes/Angel, Wes/Roger, Wes/Fred, Spike/Eve,
Spike/Wes, Spike/Gun, but when we had them in a group? Shaky. The scene where Spike pops up in front of Wes to mention head boy just seemed off for both Spike and Wes. It didn't play. OTOH - the scene with Spike and Roger? Brilliant. Same with Roger/Angel/Wes. Hmmm...maybe I'm being too nit-picky. I put it down to stress. Especially since the tv show I watched before (Smallville - please kill the Lana, please?) and after (Karen Sisco - is it just me or did Karen have more chemistry with the lady cop than any of the men she's slept with? Odd. Want more of the lady cop, also more of Dad's sideline deals - please?) did not come close to equaling the delicious writing of Angel.
Wes. I didn't realize how much I missed Wes until this episode. Ah. Finally. The best Wes scenes since Home, and possibly the best Wes episode since the Faith arc last season. Roy Dotrice as Roger was spot-on perfect. Perhaps they'll bring him back when Wes' father really visits?? Would love to see Roger and Giles interact. Roger was reminiscent of Quentin Travers played by the wonderful Haris Yulin.
Maybe it's just me, but not getting the Fred/Wes chemistry. At least not as much as last year. Not sure why. Is it Fred? Is it because of the memory wipe?
Speaking of the memory-wipe - some interesting references to it in this episode, which lead me to believe my theory that the memory-wipe set up a mirror universe just like Angel's actions in IWRY
did is "right on" target.
1. Wes refers to Lilah's death by stabbing or an ex-girlfriend's death by stabbing. He states a higher power decided to do it. This is in keeping with the whole Jasmine arc. Leading me to believe Wes remembers Lilah and Jasmine. Or some variation on that.
2. Eve mentions to Angel that Wes and Company don't remember anything that has to do with "Connor" directly.
3. As scrollgirl noted on Atpo a few weeks back, Wes no longer has his scar. So apparently physical representations of Connor have been eradicated as well.
Yet, Angel still remembers Connor and appears to be punishing Wes still for what happened to his son.
Angel in 5.6 mentions somewhat sardonically the "father will kill the son" prophecy to Wes, and is taken aback when he realizes Wes doesn't remember it. In 5.7, Angel comes down harshly on Wes when Fred gets hurt. Angel treats Wes, oddly enough, in the exact same way Roger does and even more interesting - how Angel's father used to treat him and how Angel treated Connor. Eve points out afterwards that perhaps Angel came down too harshly on Wes because he still blames him for something that Wes can't remember and as far as Wes is concerned never happened.
This leads me to believe that Angel's deal with W&H was to set up a mirror world where Connor lived with a normal family and had nothing to do with the events of S3-S4. Those events still happened. Wes turned dark. Lilah was killed by Cordy. Cordy had Jasmine and went into a coma. The only thing not in the mix is Connor. Angel basically erased Connor.
Sort of the reverse of the monks inserting Dawn into the SG's memories. Confusing as hell - wonder
if the writers can make it work? Dawn in some respects was much easier. Connor's existence so strongly affects Wes and Cordelia's story lines, that removing him completely means you have to come up with an alternative storyline to explain Wes and Cordy. So what alternative story did they come up with? And what happens when Wes or anyone else realizes it's false? Assuming they do?
Will. Once again the writers bring up the whole idea of free will. A nice reversal here - instead of Angel giving everyone back their free will, killing his grandchild and son to do so, we have Wes killing his father to give Angel back his will.
But that's not the end of it. These writers are clearly fans of MC Escher, heck Drew Goddard even references Escher in the script - Fred mentions the artist. Because the next level is Wes kills Roger to save Fred, just as Angel is forced to kill Connor to save Cordelia. Yet Wes doesn't really kill Roger - Roger exists safely in the bosom of his home, not knowing anything about it, just as Connor exists safely in the bosom of his new home, not knowing anything. Both are false kills.
Does the writer stop there? Nooo. Goddard adds a little more - he compares Spike and Angel's histories with their parents to Wes. Angel attempts to commiserate with Wes over killing his father - stating that he killed his own father - first thing he did as a vampire. Then we get Spike - who mentions the siring of his mother, then staking of her when she tried to shag him. These two stories nicely bracket Wes' issues in the piece - saving Fred (den mother) yet losing her to someone else and killing Roger (cyborg father). It also brackets Angel's issues involving his son Connor - who slept with his surrogate mother (Cordelia), tried to kill his father (Angel) and Angel ended up killing and restoring to a new life (not unlike a vampire kills and restores someone to a new life).
My only difficulty with the episode was Gunn and Lorne who seem ill-used somehow. I'm beginning to worry about how the writers see Gunn, they don't appear to know what to do with him. Last year Gunn had some great moments. Now he seems sort of out of place somehow. I'm hoping this will be rememdied soon. Gunn is a fantastic character with loads of potential - I do not understand why they can't do more with him. (BTW if you decide to comment on this by blaming Spike for Gunn's or anyone else's lack of use? I will delete your comment. So save us both some grief and don't do it. Thanks.)
Lineage? Right now 9/10, possibly 8.5 due to the lackluster comic moments and the poor use of Gunn.
I think Gunn was better used in Hellbound and
Numero Cinquo. Actually Numero Cinquo might be the episode that used all six characters the best so far. That said - it's been far too long since I had a Wes centric episode. (I admit it - Wes, Giles, Angel, and Spike are my favorite male characters on TV. No one surpasses them.) So I'm willing to forgive Goddard the flaws and give the episode a 9
just for the wonderful Wes scenes. It might be a while until we get more.
Cyberninjas
Date: 2003-11-15 09:06 pm (UTC)As S'kat says, I didn't make the connection to the free-will issues, but was thinking more along the lines of the emotional parallels to Angel's current malaise/sitch. The cyberninjas were people originally, but now they're just shells for robotics that control what they do. They're all about the mission, without any heart or hope: puppets of something bigger, more powerful, or just something with more drive, desire, or conviction behind it. Notice that the cyberninjas have double masks, the black commando headgear and then the metallic face plates. More mask symbolism, also about Angel and the dark side (Angelus) he denies and hides away.
Thinking more about this, I'm struck by how many robot hybrid references have been made recently:
LoTP:
-The "handheld spell-casting robot" malfunctions on Angel's mission.
-Wes notes to Fred that these "techno-mystical hybrids" are tricky. (While Knox insists that it's really quite simple.)
-When Knox comes by after the party he tells Fred that he's fixed "their baby" which startles or befuddles her at first.
Hell Bound:
-Okay, this is a stretch, but isn't the now-corporeal Pavayne a techno-mystical hybrid? Fred used technology AND mystical mojo to corporealize him.
TCToNC:
-El Diablo Robotico references
Lineage:
-The cyberninjas are techno/human hybrids, Robocop 2.0.
-Spike's offhand remark about robots & people having offspring, which sounds so off-the-wall and pretty dumb, but garners a pointed look from Eve.
Leslie at ATP has suggested that Eve might be a robot of some kind.
Is this where ME is going with Eve? Or is it something else? Or just coincidence?
Alice/punkinpuss
Great thoughts!!
Date: 2003-11-15 09:51 pm (UTC)-The "handheld spell-casting robot" malfunctions on Angel's mission.
-Wes notes to Fred that these "techno-mystical hybrids" are tricky. (While Knox insists that it's really quite simple.)
-When Knox comes by after the party he tells Fred that he's fixed "their baby" which startles or befuddles her at first.
Hell Bound:
-Okay, this is a stretch, but isn't the now-corporeal Pavayne a techno-mystical hybrid? Fred used technology AND mystical mojo to corporealize him.
TCToNC:
-El Diablo Robotico references
Lineage:
-The cyberninjas are techno/human hybrids, Robocop 2.0.
-Spike's offhand remark about robots & people having offspring, which sounds so off-the-wall and pretty dumb, but garners a pointed look from Eve."
All those references hadn't occurred to me. But there is a definite trend. Plus we have Fred describe them as MC ESCHER in design - like the geese picture I mention in another entry - where you don't know if the geese are becoming fish or the fish or becoming geese or neither.
Could robots be a metaphor for how Angel feels about his current state? Hollow?
Babies, family issues
Date: 2003-11-17 10:52 am (UTC)See, that's why you need to finish Dunnett's Lymond Chronicles! The last few books have an arc that deals with so many of these same themes (Pawn in Frankincense, Ringed Castle, and Checkmate). It's fascinating stuff. I don't expect ME to do anything as complicated (because they can't within the constraints of a weekly tv show) as what Dunnett did, but they are touching on so many common themes it's impossible not to draw comparisons.
punkinpuss
Re: Babies, family issues
Date: 2003-11-17 12:05 pm (UTC)Dunnett doesn't exactly promote fast reading. ;-)
Yes, I can see the robots and procreation metaphor for Connor. Connor in a way was created by mystical forces and used as a puppet for their ends. Did Connor have free will?
Or did he become nothing more than a puppet? Or did he allow himself to become just a puppet?
Contrast Connor (the human son with vampire abilities, but no vampire impulses) with Spike (the vampire son with human qualities) - Connor has a tendency to let others steer him, he doesn't believe in magic or fate, yet he lets Holtz/Justine/Cordelia and Jasmine steer his destiney.
Spike equally persistent, doesn't believe in magic or fate, but doesn't really let others tell him what to do.
He's more unpredictable. I keep remembering what ghost!Darla told Connor - "you have a choice and that's the most important thing in the world". Connor chose to follow Cordy and Jasmine, no matter what. Does that make him robot like? Not really. He knew what Jasmine was. The others who followed her were far more robotic, since they did it blindly. So were the cyberninjas like Connor - volutarily following, of own free choice, or like the others - conscripted?