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Jun. 7th, 2015 10:15 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
shadowkat1. Watching the Tony's, which are boring me. Come back, Neil Patrick Harris, come back!
Also, Fun Home reminds me a lot of Next to Normal, while American in Paris reminds me of Singing in the Rain and On the Town. Something Rotten seems sort of different...But nothing is really grabbing me. Which is a good thing -- since I can't afford to go to the plays being honored at the Tony's.
2. They are adapting Neil Gaiman's Sandman for film. Joseph Gordon-Levit is doing it. Gaiman's one requirement was that there is no punching. Sandman does not punch people.
3. Five things that did not work in Buffy the Vampire Slayer, or made you scratch your head or fanwank the hell out of them. This occurred to me over the weekend...via circumstances that are better left unsaid.
* The Buffy Cookie Dough Speech. This is the speech in the beginning of Chosen that the writer inserted to, as he explained in the commentary, to justify the heroine's jump from one vampire lover to another. Except that's not the speech. The speech is - how Buffy can't commit to a meaningful relationship with a vampire, cursed with a soul, who heads an evil law firm, and has just brought her a mystical amulet from the law firm, because...she's unbaked cookie dough and unready for a deep relationship with anyone. And you know, maybe one day, she'll be mature enough to commit to a guy who can lose his soul at any moment and slaughter all her friends or will manipulate them to his own ends, without necessarily losing his soul.
* The Scythe -- this is the mystical weapon that Buffy is told to hunt down in the last five episodes and drops into the story out of the blue. It is in a rock. And only the slayer, the chosen one, can remove it from the rock a la King Arthur. The weapon is an ax and a stake - sort of double duty vampire killing - because a stake just isn't that useful against the old deformed vamps. The only ones who can explain the Scythe are The Guardians...who appear out of nowhere in a tomb in the Cemetery. Which apparently is so huge that Buffy never bumped into them until now. But now that she has, coincidentally so does the villain, Spike and Angel. As if suddenly there's a huge target over it.
* Apparently there's an ancient box revealing the orgins of the Slayer - which only Nikki Wood's Watcher had, and was passed down to her son, Robin. Not any of the new slayers or their watchers. And the legend isn't known by anyone but Nikki's Watcher and the magical box.
*The Demon Eggs in AYW: Spike, who is unable to remove his chip or fend for himself and is constantly making deals with Buffy and her gang for money, not to mention helping them, and now in debt to a land shark, out of the blue is a major arms dealer -- called the Doctor. And is hiding nasty monster eggs in his crypt, even though Buffy and all her friends visit him all the time and without knocking. Somehow they never notice the eggs. Or that he is the Doctor. Yet, Riley and his wife manage to track the monsters to Spike's lair within 24 hours of their arrival in Sunnydale.
* The AR Scene in Seeing Red: 1)Buffy's mysterious back injury in Seeing Red - after fighting off Hyena!Xander, being staked by a vamp, fighting Spike when he wanted to kill her and getting the better of him, fighting and beating Angelus, fighting Glory, and not to mention falling from various heights - Buffy injures her back when she falls against a headstone. As if she'd never had this happen before? Keep in mind this woman was thrust up against the wall of a building that fell around her, while having sex.
2) Spike enters Buffy's bathroom. Not her bedroom. Or any other place, but the "bathroom" which to date we've never seen. 3) Buffy is depicted as weak and not super-strong in most of the scene, then suddenly is...
And if that one didn't work for you...
* In S7 Spike is tortured with drowning, can't see in the dark, and has a reflection. While Angel is doing quite well six feet under, can see in the dark, and doesn't have reflection. Did Spike become somewhat human when he got his soul?
[Since this is being pimped, I'm going to shamelessly tout my book "Doing Time on Planet Earth", it's a work of fiction - which you can go buy HERE.]
Also, Fun Home reminds me a lot of Next to Normal, while American in Paris reminds me of Singing in the Rain and On the Town. Something Rotten seems sort of different...But nothing is really grabbing me. Which is a good thing -- since I can't afford to go to the plays being honored at the Tony's.
2. They are adapting Neil Gaiman's Sandman for film. Joseph Gordon-Levit is doing it. Gaiman's one requirement was that there is no punching. Sandman does not punch people.
3. Five things that did not work in Buffy the Vampire Slayer, or made you scratch your head or fanwank the hell out of them. This occurred to me over the weekend...via circumstances that are better left unsaid.
* The Buffy Cookie Dough Speech. This is the speech in the beginning of Chosen that the writer inserted to, as he explained in the commentary, to justify the heroine's jump from one vampire lover to another. Except that's not the speech. The speech is - how Buffy can't commit to a meaningful relationship with a vampire, cursed with a soul, who heads an evil law firm, and has just brought her a mystical amulet from the law firm, because...she's unbaked cookie dough and unready for a deep relationship with anyone. And you know, maybe one day, she'll be mature enough to commit to a guy who can lose his soul at any moment and slaughter all her friends or will manipulate them to his own ends, without necessarily losing his soul.
* The Scythe -- this is the mystical weapon that Buffy is told to hunt down in the last five episodes and drops into the story out of the blue. It is in a rock. And only the slayer, the chosen one, can remove it from the rock a la King Arthur. The weapon is an ax and a stake - sort of double duty vampire killing - because a stake just isn't that useful against the old deformed vamps. The only ones who can explain the Scythe are The Guardians...who appear out of nowhere in a tomb in the Cemetery. Which apparently is so huge that Buffy never bumped into them until now. But now that she has, coincidentally so does the villain, Spike and Angel. As if suddenly there's a huge target over it.
* Apparently there's an ancient box revealing the orgins of the Slayer - which only Nikki Wood's Watcher had, and was passed down to her son, Robin. Not any of the new slayers or their watchers. And the legend isn't known by anyone but Nikki's Watcher and the magical box.
*The Demon Eggs in AYW: Spike, who is unable to remove his chip or fend for himself and is constantly making deals with Buffy and her gang for money, not to mention helping them, and now in debt to a land shark, out of the blue is a major arms dealer -- called the Doctor. And is hiding nasty monster eggs in his crypt, even though Buffy and all her friends visit him all the time and without knocking. Somehow they never notice the eggs. Or that he is the Doctor. Yet, Riley and his wife manage to track the monsters to Spike's lair within 24 hours of their arrival in Sunnydale.
* The AR Scene in Seeing Red: 1)Buffy's mysterious back injury in Seeing Red - after fighting off Hyena!Xander, being staked by a vamp, fighting Spike when he wanted to kill her and getting the better of him, fighting and beating Angelus, fighting Glory, and not to mention falling from various heights - Buffy injures her back when she falls against a headstone. As if she'd never had this happen before? Keep in mind this woman was thrust up against the wall of a building that fell around her, while having sex.
2) Spike enters Buffy's bathroom. Not her bedroom. Or any other place, but the "bathroom" which to date we've never seen. 3) Buffy is depicted as weak and not super-strong in most of the scene, then suddenly is...
And if that one didn't work for you...
* In S7 Spike is tortured with drowning, can't see in the dark, and has a reflection. While Angel is doing quite well six feet under, can see in the dark, and doesn't have reflection. Did Spike become somewhat human when he got his soul?
[Since this is being pimped, I'm going to shamelessly tout my book "Doing Time on Planet Earth", it's a work of fiction - which you can go buy HERE.]
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
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Date: 2015-06-08 04:09 am (UTC)The Scythe is just Olaf's Hammer all over again. We need a super powerful weapon? Well, let's pull one out of thin air with a lame excuse for an explanation! The box is just a variation of the same theme.
Most everything in As You Were is designed to embarrass Buffy- 'There's a cow on my hat' (as if nobody noticed it); Sam manages to do it all without being a slayer; Spike is hiding a ridiculous number of (nearly ridiculous) secrets right under Buffy's nose; Reilly managed to find a healthy relationship and Buffy couldn't, and so forth. It's just a sledgehammer way of emphasizing that Buffy has been distracted.
I kind of forgive the bathroom scene. The whole thing is based on Spike's belief that he can't actually hurt Buffy. And the whole point is that everyone including the audience must discover that , yes, he can. As when I saw it for the first time, I'm willing to say she could be hurting this time, no matter what we've seen her go through before. Heck, when I was young I jumped off low buildings and out of sizable trees for fun and never got hurt doing it. That doesn't mean I never got hurt in any situation. I'm willing to believe if she fell oddly on the tombstone, she could get hurt once out of a hundred times, and that she would be very sore later. Helpless... I don't know... But for the sake of the story I'd let that go. The whole scene was probably a mistake since either she suddenly had to recover enough to fight Spike off, or they'd have to go with a full blown rape scene.
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Date: 2015-06-08 09:54 pm (UTC)1) It was introduced in an earlier episode, so available and they didn't have to find it.
2) It didn't save the day or wasn't the magical device to end all.
The Scythe (unless you were reading the Fray comic books and considered them canon to the television series) came out of nowhere. And was allegedly the magical device to end all devices. Which no one had ever mentioned until the last four episodes of S7. Olaf's Hammar in contrast, was well, just another item on a laundry list in The Gift - and a bit of joke, which by the way Whedon uses again in The Avenger's with Thor's hammer. It's actually the same joke.
I'm less forgiving of AYW, although I do see your point - and that is why the writer's did it. But, it doesn't work from a plot standpoint or in relation to Spike. Riley, yes. I had no problem with how Riley or Sam were presented, although the acting was incredibly wooden (I blame the director for that). But I just can't see Spike becoming an international arms dealer while he's busy saving the world, and mooning after Buffy and cheating at kitten poker etc. Also, wouldn't someone have noticed? It was a bit too absurd...they should have built it up better than they did. You could tell the writers came up with that plot-line as they were writing that episode. But didn't bother to lay the groundwork. (Don't get me wrong - I'm not saying that I can't see Spike as an international arms dealer or doing any of that. But not based on what was shown to us. It was sloppy.)
At any rate, I agree with your assessment of Whedon...he said himself that he was burned out on Buffy. And I think that was true. Also, upset over the cancellation of Firefly. So...he got sloppy. Although most of his stuff post Buffy has felt sloppy to me, so maybe that's just the writer, without a really good writing partner/ editor?
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Date: 2015-06-08 10:32 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2015-06-08 11:07 pm (UTC)I think the scene works for you -- if you buy the writer's set-up, that's she's seriously hurt, and can't easily fight him off and trusts he'll back off.
But if you don't buy the set-up? Then you are thrown out of the scene and jarred by it.
I do find the scene fascinating - in that Spike backs off. As a soulless vampire, he shouldn't be backing off. Especially now that he knows she's been weakened and has no weapon. He even asks himself that question. So, from a Spike perspective - it's an interesting scene. From a Buffy perspective...it's rather jarring, and doesn't quite work - because I can't quite buy the set-up...it doesn't fit the characters reactions and actions up to this point.
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Date: 2015-06-08 11:15 pm (UTC)Clarification
Date: 2015-06-13 01:04 pm (UTC)Didn't say that.
What I meant -- was that his actions were fascinating because they went against his nature as a soulless vampire. And also in regards to most human rapists. Warren, as shown with Katrina would have raped Buffy. So too would have Hyena!Xander (who granted isn't exactly human or in his right mind) and as would Angelus. And S2-S4 Spike? Definitely.
But Spike, who had no soul, backed off. And it's not like he hadn't raped women before, he had. But he backs off.
I'm not saying that the character wouldn't do that. I'm saying that from a metaphorical and mythological standpoint -- it's interesting that he didn't do it.
Remember his speech afterwards? Where he states to Clem that he's surprised he didn't do it?
The fact that he backs off - is evidence in my opinion that he didn't intend to rape her or hurt her. If he had, then he wouldn't have backed off. (Again as demonstrated in previous episodes - Out of My Mind, School Hard, Harsh Light of Day...etc.)
That's what I found interesting.
My difficulty with the episode was not Spike's characterization (which I actually found interesting), or Buffy's necessarily. My difficulty was in how the episode was filmed, and how they decided to weaken Buffy. I had trouble with the direction and filming of various scenes.
Hope this clarifies it.
ETA: What a lot a fans seem to be overlooking here -- is what the writer's did. They took a soulless vampire and had him decide not to kill or rape the slayer. The mythology on both Angel and Buffy states continuously that this is not possible.
And they did it in a clever fashion -- in that it initially appears that he did attack her, and she kicked him off - end of story. But what a lot of viewers seem to overlook -- is hello, it's in an enclosed space, she's injured, has no weapons, and he's not in vamp face or using his full powers. All he has to do is go full vamp face and she's dead. If he were truly as evil as the writers make out - she would be. He'd have killed her. Or raped her.
Then went to get his chip out. But he does the opposite. What does that say about Angel or the vampire mythology that writer's set up? It changes the universe of the series.
Re: Clarification
Date: 2015-06-13 02:53 pm (UTC)But, yes, it does change the mythology - big time. But consistency was never the hallmark of the show anyway. Everybody is pretty hung up on souls, but that's mainly due to Angel/Angelus being so different with and without his. Spike has been Spike right from the get-go. I think one of frustrating things about that universe is that it changes as the needs of the story change. Makes it easy to write AU fic because you can almost always point to a place where this or that did or could have happened, but it also makes it hard to be dogmatic about what is and isn't part of the mythology or backstory of that world.
And killing Buffy was never his intent there - neither, IMHO, was raping her. In his drunken mind, she is just doing her usual "no, no... oh do it again!" thing and he is just being persistent because he is so sure that the physical act will change her mind about their relationship. The difference is, Buffy means it this time (for several reasons, including her injury) and in his need to show her she really does love him, he uses more force than he would have gotten away with if she hadn't been hurt both physically and emotionally.
I do wish they had found some other way to make Spike go get his soul. But I guess they felt they needed something so horrible it would drive him to it. So they made him do something typically evil, but he did it in his own way and it failed, so I guess it worked.
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Date: 2015-06-12 05:48 pm (UTC)THIS.
As a Buffy fan I thought and think it was unfortunate they added the back injury (like the entire catalog of things to humiliate Buffy with in AYW), but we've seen her shocked or startled enough to freeze up even momentarily before, going all the way back to WTTH, Ted (the "resurrected" Ted appears in her bedroom), Spiral, and as recently as Smashed. The shock of the situation all by itself would have been enough so it's unfortunate they added that element.
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Date: 2015-06-13 01:34 pm (UTC)Although, in reality, she wouldn't to be able to thrust him off, and if he had intended to rape her - he wouldn't have stopped. So what they were trying to do doesn't quite work. The filming of that scene, everything about it -- indicates they were trying to well have their cake and eat it too. I don't think it worked quite the way they wanted it to -- or at least not for everyone. But that's the nature of art -- some people will get what you are aiming at, some people will woefully not.
For me? It worked and it didn't work at the same time. If I were to change anything about that scene...I don't know any more. Maybe how it was shot? (shrugs)
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Date: 2015-06-08 12:44 pm (UTC)I haven't seen the musical of Fun Home, but the graphic novel is amazing.
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Date: 2015-06-08 09:56 pm (UTC)Agree on a Sandman. Gordon-Levit is a good fit. And I'd be interested in a film production.
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Date: 2015-06-08 01:56 pm (UTC)The Buffy Cookie Dough Speech. You are right on the money with this one. I have always wondered why, when discussing their relationship, she mentions cookie dough and not all the things you mentioned (especially the whole curse, turning into Angelus thing).
The Scythe The Scythe was meant to be a secret weapon, a weapon hidden from the watchers. Ditto goes for the Guardians. So, I kind of understand the scythe. What I don't understand is how Spike, Angel and Caleb all show up at the same time, in a place that was a hidden secret the day before.
The ancient box Right there with you on this one. It makes no sense that Robin has this and remembers he has it, at just the right time. *rolls eyes*
The Demon Eggs in AYW Again you are right on the money with this one. Although I never saw (before now) the episode as one big embarrass Buffy episode. I always thought of it as an easy excuse for Buffy to dump Spike.
The AR Scene in Seeing Red 1) I agree with
I enjoyed your view point, on this post, immensely. Thanks for sharing.
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Date: 2015-06-08 10:38 pm (UTC)*The Scythe - it would have worked better for me, if it had been built up to differently. Maybe if they mentioned it earlier in the season as opposed to Dirty Girls? So that it came a little less out of the blue. Similar to what happened with the magic box...which also required a bit more build up than the writer's provided. Both felt as if the writer's pulled the idea out of their hat at the very last minute.
I agree, the fact Spike, Angel and Caleb all pop up...seems a bit farfetched.
*Good points on SR bathroom scene. It's a weird scene. The way its shot - alone - is rather jarring. And Spike's actions during it are rather surprising. (Not that he attacked her, but that he actually stops after she kicks him off - and not only that, takes off. Every time prior to that - when he attacked her and she kicked him off -he would continue to fight her until he either got what he wanted or a splitting headache from the chip. But this time he did something very different. )
Another odd thing about that scene? He's never in vamp face. So he almost gets the better of her, without being in vamp face. The fact he's not in vamp face - shows he didn't intend to hurt her. Otherwise he'd have vamped out.
It's a confusing scene. Fun to analyze though, because you can argue it multiple ways.
What never quite worked for me, however, was how Buffy was weakened, and where the scene took place. Although, I'll concede that both you and cactuswatcher make good points regarding the injury and the placement of the scene - which had not occurred to me.
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Date: 2015-06-12 05:56 pm (UTC)You're the first person I've ever seen make that point - and it's a good one. I think here, though, the difference is Buffy - she's in tears. The best comparison is actually Fool For Love - he is ready to kill her, gun in hand, until he sees she is crying. If she had broken down in tears when he said "You came back wrong" in Smashed, I imagine a similar reaction (which is not to excuse anything btw.)
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Date: 2015-06-13 01:41 pm (UTC)He's horrified. The expression on his face after she kicks him off -- isn't rage, it isn't snark, or a sneer, no -- it's pure horror. He has the same expression that he had in the basement of Sleeper, when he realizes all the people he's killed. It's an expression of remorse. And he's in tears.
That's fascinating to me. We had a long discussions about it on a couple of fanboards that I was on back in the day.
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Date: 2015-06-12 05:28 pm (UTC)When I watched the episode the first time three-four years ago that was ALL I could see, from beginning to end (Buffy getting the rejection letter from the college, missing the garbage truck, Sam being tall and gorgeus, Buffy making impulsive mistakes, flirting with Riley who doesn't bother to tell her he's married - either he was really that oblivious or the assshat was just enjoying himself. I can go either way on that. And don't forget Buffy apologizing to Riley for - I don't know what the hell actually. For "driving him away"? Where was his apology to her?)
Did I mention I hate that episode?
ETA: With you 100% on the ancient box - that makes no sense whatsoever. (If that had shown up in an early season ep you can bet that Giles would have been all over that.)
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Date: 2015-06-08 03:15 pm (UTC)You made fabulous points here. I stopped trying to apply the principles of continuity to Buffy because otherwise my head might have exploded.
The Cookie Dough Speech™ will live in infamy until the end of time.
Gabrielle
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Date: 2015-06-08 10:03 pm (UTC)Spike: Slayer, if I knew you were coming, I'd have baked you a cake.
Or Riley's incredibly cheesy..."Wheel Speech" at the end.
Although, I'll admit I did like two or three scenes in that episode: Anya and Xander hiding from their relatives in the bathroom, and Buffy and Riley's competition on who had it worse since he left.
Buffy: Did you die.
Riley: Well, no.
Buffy: I win.
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Date: 2015-06-09 02:38 am (UTC)Riley: Well, no.
Buffy: I win.
It's good, but nowhere near enough to redeem the episode. Other than Storyteller or Superstar, I'm hard pressed to think of a lamer episode. (And yes, I'm well aware that Some Assembly Required sucks... but not this much.)
Gabrielle
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Date: 2015-06-10 12:54 am (UTC)Oh, we have exactly the same least favorite episodes! YAY!
And here, I thought I was the only one who disliked Storyteller and Superstar?
Yep, my least favorite episodes (ie. the one's I find difficult to nearly impossible to rewatch without cringing) are:
1. As You Were
2. Superstar
3. Storyteller
4. Some Assembly Required
Also not overly fond of the demon snake episode that took place at the frat house, or
Wild at Heart (although it is saved by the Spike/Anya conversation and Giles singing Behind Blue Eyes.)
There are episodes of Buffy that I find cringeworthy or difficult to watch. Doublemeat Palace also comes to mind...although that did have a few saving graces. As does, First Date. Espenson, as much as I love the writer, unfortunately penned a lot of episodes that just did not work for me as a viewer.
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Date: 2015-06-10 03:09 am (UTC)Gabrielle
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Date: 2015-06-12 05:40 pm (UTC)And as a Buffy fan, I'm very much in agreement with your list, Gabrielle, including WAH. I don't love it (it and Fear Itself are a bit repetitive of one another) but I didn't dislike it either, it has some great, memorable moments.
AYW = deep abiding hatred from this Buffy fan. Superstar and Storyteller = meh. Other than the opening of montage of Superstar and the very last scene in Storyteller (Andrew turns off the camera) I am bored bored bored NOW.
I actually don't remember enough of SAW to remember if I hated it or not. I thought the entire concept was gross and squicky.
I'd add Inca Mummy Girl for the stereotype of the beautiful ethnic girl who moons over the ordinary boy and has the worst accent this side of Kendra.
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Date: 2015-06-12 05:56 pm (UTC)Gabrielle
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Date: 2015-06-12 05:58 pm (UTC)I keep forgetting it was that episode! (Love your icon, btw. *lol*)
That moment is gold, the rest please just toss out the trash. It feels like a Season 1 ep that got postponed to season 2 because I literally keep forgetting it's an S2 ep.
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Date: 2015-06-12 06:05 pm (UTC)Gabrielle
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Date: 2015-06-12 06:30 pm (UTC)But I agree with you 100% on the difference re: annoying/boring vs truly terrible/hateful and AYW is a vast sucking hole of hatefulness. Watching it I had the impression that the writers were just having FUN humiliating Buffy, so it was like reading a fanfic where the author is consistently bashing a character. NOT FUN. (I came across yet ANOTHER S6 Spuffy "fix it fic" that bashes Willow and I stopped reading.)
Maybe that's part of the point of AYW, that the show writers were writing a parody of fan fiction. I suspect the comics are mostly a parody of fandom. If that is the point, it isn't clear, and why would I want to watch a hateful parody of a hateful practice? Any way you slice AYW, it's all bad.
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Date: 2015-06-12 07:44 pm (UTC)Gabrielle
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Date: 2015-06-12 08:04 pm (UTC)I think......Which is where your nail-on-the-head assessment "inept" comes into play.
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Date: 2015-06-13 09:41 pm (UTC)Whedon is a frustrated film scholar. Most of his work tends to be commentary on others works, similar to Quentin Tarantino, who sort of did the same thing. If you have ever seen Cabin in the Woods - that's perfect example of what I'd call a meta-narrative.
In which the entire film is a commentary on other films, referencing and commenting on those tropes.
Superstar and Storyteller aren't really parodies per se, but commentaries on pop culture tropes or how pop culture reacts to stories. Meta-narrative can be fun -- see Once More With Feeling, where the writer has his characters commenting on the ridiculousness of musicals. I mean come on, we stop the action, just to burst out in song? Is someone watching this? He pokes fun at the trope and the structure of the musical - honoring it and commenting on it at the same time. An example of meta-narrative in a book is - say Terry Prachett's footnotes at the bottom of Good Omens. The author commenting on his own story.
But Superstar and Storyteller in my opinion (this is all subjective after all) were heavy handed about it - and took it a step too far, sacrificing plot and character in the process.
As You Were didn't feel like either a parody or a meta narrative. I'm not quite sure what they were going for there, exactly. Except that it just didn't work for me. And it remains the one episode, outside of Superstar and Storyteller that I find difficult to rewatch. Others, I will rewatch and fast-forward through the crappy stuff (Inca Mummy Girl, Some Assembly Required, the Snake episode, Go Fish, etc.). But those three episodes I find difficult to re-watch at all.
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Date: 2015-06-08 10:34 pm (UTC)Anything else leads to madness...
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Date: 2015-06-08 04:02 pm (UTC)Granted, it works beautifully on a symbolical level - with air representing the soul or life force and smoke as offerings to the gods - but on a physical level, not so much.
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Date: 2015-06-08 09:59 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2015-06-08 10:38 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2015-06-08 04:21 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2015-06-09 06:16 am (UTC)- We had seen Buffy's bathroom prior to the AR scene. We saw it in Who Are You (Faith takes a bath in Buffy's body and then talks to herself in the mirror), Restless (Xander goes into he bathroom to pee in his dream) and Bargaining I (Willow goes into the bathroom to ask Dawn, who is brushing her teeth, if she borrowed her shoes). And I always just assumed that Spike would've walked past Buffy's room first and saw that she wasn't in it and then saw the bathroom light on under the door. Regardless, he has vampire senses so he'd have smelt and heard exactly where she was anyway.
- Whilst Spike "drowning" is incredibly silly because he doesn't need to breathe, I was never under the impression Angel himself was submerged in water during his time under the ocean. The way it looked to me was that Angel's coffin went under water but that the coffin itself never filled with water. Angel isn't wet when he emerges from the sea and when he awakes from a nightmare his screams aren't muffled as they would be if he was under water. Again, Spike doesn't need to breathe so waterboarding a vampire is a silly idea, but I just wouldn't compare it to Angel in Deep Down :)
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Date: 2015-06-10 01:01 am (UTC)so go Here (https://www.google.com/search?q=Images+from+Angel+Deep+Down&biw=1320&bih=662&tbm=isch&imgil=5mNkQWQIyiYtDM%253A%253BLvVYg0zW9p3NPM%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.moley75.co.uk%25252F2009%25252F04%25252F23%25252Fyou-thought-you-were-doing-the-right-thing-i-hear-that-can-be-confusing%25252F&source=iu&pf=m&fir=5mNkQWQIyiYtDM%253A%252CLvVYg0zW9p3NPM%252C_&usg=__VixKEPpA4W5qs5erE3k9vp9EMMw%3D&ved=0CDMQyjdqFQoTCJXP7bH1g8YCFYGUDQod5A4A4A&ei=GYt3VdXeFIGpNuSdgIAO#imgrc=5mNkQWQIyiYtDM%253A%3BLvVYg0zW9p3NPM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.moley75.co.uk%252Fletsfoldscarves%252Fwp-content%252Fuploads%252F2009%252F04%252Fdeep-down-angel.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.moley75.co.uk%252F2009%252F04%252F23%252Fyou-thought-you-were-doing-the-right-thing-i-hear-that-can-be-confusing%252F%3B534%3B300).
Also the Trailer (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzT8VTLfoWw)
I'll concede on the other points. The bathroom just looked a lot bigger and different for some reason. Maybe they remodeled it? Or it's my memory. I've admittedly not watched either in more than 5 years.
no subject
Date: 2015-06-10 11:30 am (UTC)I dunno. To me it just doesn't look like water was inside the box. It looks enclosed and like the window is made of glass (and was only there so we can see Angel's sad face staring out of it lol)
no subject
Date: 2015-06-10 10:28 pm (UTC)How can you be tortured with water-boarding if you don't have breath? Angel was buried under the sea - there was no way for him to breath.
Unless vampires are allergic to water? But I thought that was only holy water?
LOL! I remember reading fights over this online. I honestly think the writer's didn't think it through.
no subject
Date: 2015-06-11 12:22 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2015-06-11 01:15 am (UTC)Because you know, the characters need to stay pretty.
no subject
Date: 2015-06-11 06:10 am (UTC)