Re-Thinking Wes and Spike on ATS 5.7
Nov. 15th, 2003 01:51 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
shadowkatJust re-watched ATS 5.7 and whoa is this episode soaked to the seams with subtext. Lots going on in the background. After re-watching, I realized a few things I hadn't noticed before. (Emphasis on "I", I know others probably noticed it, ;-) )
Up until now I never saw the characters of Wes and Spike as having anything in common. Spike/Giles? Yes. Wes/Angel? Yep. Spike/Wes? Nope. Then I read the ATPO board, and with those comments in mind, went back and watched. I particularly payed close attention to scenes that contained Spike and Wes.
Silly me. Of all the characters - Wes and Spike are probably the "most" alike.
Why? Several things...
1. When Spike first meets Roger Wyndam-Pryce, he states a very interesting line: "I thought Wes was grown in the greenhouse where they grow dandies"
Interesting comment. Think back to Fool For Love and Lies My PArents Told Me's flashbacks. Spike is described as a "dandy" and a "sissy". Wes in early S3 BTVS, Spin The Bottle, and in S5 5.7 - is described as "dandy" and "sissy". The fact Spike uses it - is ironic to say the least - since people once used it to define Spike.
2. When Roger tells Fred that Wes used to be head boy - the camera swings over to Spike who is busy trying to touch stuff in the lab cabinet. Spike pauses at Roger's comment, his eyebrows lift and he stares at Wes, almost as if he's looking at him in a new way.
Go back to Fool For Love again - if you've ever read Harry Potter, how William is treated in FFL is very similar to how PErcy is treated in Harry, with disdain and tolerance. You get the feeling Wes was treated the same way - both by Roger's comments, the reactions of the Watcher's to him in Sanctuary, Giles' treatment of him in S3 BTVS and finally Wes' comment to Angel at the end of the episode.
3. Both Wes and Spike demonstrate they'd do anything to save the girl - in this case Fred.
On top of this - both have a tendency to carry torches for women but it's never fully returned.
Fred doesn't appear to see or return Wes' affections, any more than Buffy returned Spike's.
Then again - we aren't entirely sure. Also both
got into very twisted relationships with women:
Wes/Justine, Wes/Lilah and Spike/Dru, Spike/Buffy.
What's interesting about all of this is how the writers a) emphasize it in the episode in what appears to be jokes and b) how Spike and Wes are inter-acting, subtly interacting.
In Tale - we have Spike showing up and Wes sensing him and stating something very odd:"I didn't know you could read....(whatever language that was)"
Spike denies knowing it and asks about the Shanshu.
The two men circle each other in their dialogue.
Does Wes sense that Spike may know more than he lets on? Not sure. Not even sure if Spike does.
Until the head boy line in Lineage - which Spike feels the need to use at a later date - except I'm not so sure Spike is making fun of Wes in this scene, he appears upon re-watching to be making fun of Angel's father attitude - a hunch that is backed up by his snarky comment to Angel - "do you want me to type up my head boy report?" Basically he seems to be stating what Wes may wish to state to Angel and Roger both - "why do I have to report to you? As if you are my boss? My father?" And at the same time he's making fun of Wes' brown-nosing or desire to get both father figures (Angel/Roger) approval.
Later, in Lineage - Spike makes a point of telling Wes about killing his mother, Wes' reaction to Spike is somewhat different than it is to Angel.
To Angel - he says - not the same thing. To Spike, he says "I appreciate the effort...and halts him".
He's creeped out yet suprised and appreciative at the same time. Not quite the reaction I'd have predicted.
So I started wondering about a few things...what are the roles here? How are the characters relating?
Other scenes that struck me as interesting on second viewing:
Spike sees Gunn held by the ninja, screams out: "Gunn" and runs to him, Gunn responds: "Spike"
Spike looks in Gunn's eyes, assuring him to not talk then knocks out the guy behind him. The interaction is one between two people who have become friendly on some level - who seem to care.
This scene reminds me of a similar one - where Spike attempts to help Gunn in Tale but is unable to.
The elevator - when Spike exits the elevator after it stalls. He mentions that something is up with it. The ninjas attack. After he saves Gunn, he mentions it again, stating Eve's stuck in it. Gunn shrugs it off - telling him to go get maintenance.
Spike says - where's maintenaince? Looks confused.
Thinks a moment. And wonders aloud why he even cares about the nasty Eve. I wondered too.
Very interesting scenes. Just as Spike's scene with EVE is interesting - where he is trying to be intimadating, yet loses it when the light's go out.
Causing Eve to give him another odd look. The first odd look she gives him in the lab btw is not because of the robot remark but the fact he managed to knock a beaker off the cabinet. Making me wonder if she knew he could affect reality before? Maybe not. She reacts to it this round. The others shrug it off, because they unlike EVE have watched him do it before. Spike covers what he's doing with a joke about robots.
Then the scene in the elevator where EVE suggests that perhaps the amulet was meant for Spike and Angel was used as delivery boy. In which case - is Roger right - has Angel always been a puppet, without realizing it? If we believe Skip in InsideOut - he seems to be. I don't think he really is a puppet, btw, but I think Angel fears he is - we are in Angel's perspective after all.
It's an odd episode...there's an undercurrent of things going on, that Angel himself isn't noticing.
1. Wes - and his feelings for Fred
2. Fred's avoidance of those feeling
(This in part led to Wes' actions in S3 and S4, and Angel ignored them in those seasons as well. It was Angelus who picked up on it and realized it was an important motivating factor.)
3. Wes' relationship with Lilah
4. Spike's interaction with people
5. Eve - Angel seems to not really notice that she's stalking him all over the place (Spike sort of comments on it. He also comments on how "Angel is buying her act" but he's not.)
6. Angel seems to miss the point that Wes at least in the emotional sense "killed" his own father.
Interesting. Angel gets Wes will make the hard decisions - he's experienced that. But is he so preoccupied by the comparisons to Connor and his own situation, that he fails to get how ruthless Wes can be? And the still unresolved factors that led to it? 1)Angel's condemnation of Wes putting Fred in danger, 2) Fred' continual inability to acknowledge Wes' feelings for her, which must frustrate Wes to no end, 3) Wes' own fear of failure and weakness - of just being a sissy?
This isn't the first time Angel has ignored this.
Heck he does it with Spike - Angel's treatment of Wes' difficulties from S1-onwards is reminiscent of how he treats Spike and Connor.
1) condemnation of Connor, 2) refusal to deal with Connor's unreturned adoration of Cordelia, 3) Connor's fear of weakness of not living up to expectations.
Spike -
1) condemnation of Spike's weaknesses, 2) refusal to acknowledge Spike's love of Dru or Buffy as something that matters, 3) Spike's fear of rejection and not living up to expectations.
Angel-
1) his father's condemnation of him, 2) his father's refusal to acknowledge his desires
3) Angel's fear of failing.
Is Angel doomed to make his own father's mistake over and over and over again with different horrible results?
Up until now I never saw the characters of Wes and Spike as having anything in common. Spike/Giles? Yes. Wes/Angel? Yep. Spike/Wes? Nope. Then I read the ATPO board, and with those comments in mind, went back and watched. I particularly payed close attention to scenes that contained Spike and Wes.
Silly me. Of all the characters - Wes and Spike are probably the "most" alike.
Why? Several things...
1. When Spike first meets Roger Wyndam-Pryce, he states a very interesting line: "I thought Wes was grown in the greenhouse where they grow dandies"
Interesting comment. Think back to Fool For Love and Lies My PArents Told Me's flashbacks. Spike is described as a "dandy" and a "sissy". Wes in early S3 BTVS, Spin The Bottle, and in S5 5.7 - is described as "dandy" and "sissy". The fact Spike uses it - is ironic to say the least - since people once used it to define Spike.
2. When Roger tells Fred that Wes used to be head boy - the camera swings over to Spike who is busy trying to touch stuff in the lab cabinet. Spike pauses at Roger's comment, his eyebrows lift and he stares at Wes, almost as if he's looking at him in a new way.
Go back to Fool For Love again - if you've ever read Harry Potter, how William is treated in FFL is very similar to how PErcy is treated in Harry, with disdain and tolerance. You get the feeling Wes was treated the same way - both by Roger's comments, the reactions of the Watcher's to him in Sanctuary, Giles' treatment of him in S3 BTVS and finally Wes' comment to Angel at the end of the episode.
3. Both Wes and Spike demonstrate they'd do anything to save the girl - in this case Fred.
On top of this - both have a tendency to carry torches for women but it's never fully returned.
Fred doesn't appear to see or return Wes' affections, any more than Buffy returned Spike's.
Then again - we aren't entirely sure. Also both
got into very twisted relationships with women:
Wes/Justine, Wes/Lilah and Spike/Dru, Spike/Buffy.
What's interesting about all of this is how the writers a) emphasize it in the episode in what appears to be jokes and b) how Spike and Wes are inter-acting, subtly interacting.
In Tale - we have Spike showing up and Wes sensing him and stating something very odd:"I didn't know you could read....(whatever language that was)"
Spike denies knowing it and asks about the Shanshu.
The two men circle each other in their dialogue.
Does Wes sense that Spike may know more than he lets on? Not sure. Not even sure if Spike does.
Until the head boy line in Lineage - which Spike feels the need to use at a later date - except I'm not so sure Spike is making fun of Wes in this scene, he appears upon re-watching to be making fun of Angel's father attitude - a hunch that is backed up by his snarky comment to Angel - "do you want me to type up my head boy report?" Basically he seems to be stating what Wes may wish to state to Angel and Roger both - "why do I have to report to you? As if you are my boss? My father?" And at the same time he's making fun of Wes' brown-nosing or desire to get both father figures (Angel/Roger) approval.
Later, in Lineage - Spike makes a point of telling Wes about killing his mother, Wes' reaction to Spike is somewhat different than it is to Angel.
To Angel - he says - not the same thing. To Spike, he says "I appreciate the effort...and halts him".
He's creeped out yet suprised and appreciative at the same time. Not quite the reaction I'd have predicted.
So I started wondering about a few things...what are the roles here? How are the characters relating?
Other scenes that struck me as interesting on second viewing:
Spike sees Gunn held by the ninja, screams out: "Gunn" and runs to him, Gunn responds: "Spike"
Spike looks in Gunn's eyes, assuring him to not talk then knocks out the guy behind him. The interaction is one between two people who have become friendly on some level - who seem to care.
This scene reminds me of a similar one - where Spike attempts to help Gunn in Tale but is unable to.
The elevator - when Spike exits the elevator after it stalls. He mentions that something is up with it. The ninjas attack. After he saves Gunn, he mentions it again, stating Eve's stuck in it. Gunn shrugs it off - telling him to go get maintenance.
Spike says - where's maintenaince? Looks confused.
Thinks a moment. And wonders aloud why he even cares about the nasty Eve. I wondered too.
Very interesting scenes. Just as Spike's scene with EVE is interesting - where he is trying to be intimadating, yet loses it when the light's go out.
Causing Eve to give him another odd look. The first odd look she gives him in the lab btw is not because of the robot remark but the fact he managed to knock a beaker off the cabinet. Making me wonder if she knew he could affect reality before? Maybe not. She reacts to it this round. The others shrug it off, because they unlike EVE have watched him do it before. Spike covers what he's doing with a joke about robots.
Then the scene in the elevator where EVE suggests that perhaps the amulet was meant for Spike and Angel was used as delivery boy. In which case - is Roger right - has Angel always been a puppet, without realizing it? If we believe Skip in InsideOut - he seems to be. I don't think he really is a puppet, btw, but I think Angel fears he is - we are in Angel's perspective after all.
It's an odd episode...there's an undercurrent of things going on, that Angel himself isn't noticing.
1. Wes - and his feelings for Fred
2. Fred's avoidance of those feeling
(This in part led to Wes' actions in S3 and S4, and Angel ignored them in those seasons as well. It was Angelus who picked up on it and realized it was an important motivating factor.)
3. Wes' relationship with Lilah
4. Spike's interaction with people
5. Eve - Angel seems to not really notice that she's stalking him all over the place (Spike sort of comments on it. He also comments on how "Angel is buying her act" but he's not.)
6. Angel seems to miss the point that Wes at least in the emotional sense "killed" his own father.
Interesting. Angel gets Wes will make the hard decisions - he's experienced that. But is he so preoccupied by the comparisons to Connor and his own situation, that he fails to get how ruthless Wes can be? And the still unresolved factors that led to it? 1)Angel's condemnation of Wes putting Fred in danger, 2) Fred' continual inability to acknowledge Wes' feelings for her, which must frustrate Wes to no end, 3) Wes' own fear of failure and weakness - of just being a sissy?
This isn't the first time Angel has ignored this.
Heck he does it with Spike - Angel's treatment of Wes' difficulties from S1-onwards is reminiscent of how he treats Spike and Connor.
1) condemnation of Connor, 2) refusal to deal with Connor's unreturned adoration of Cordelia, 3) Connor's fear of weakness of not living up to expectations.
Spike -
1) condemnation of Spike's weaknesses, 2) refusal to acknowledge Spike's love of Dru or Buffy as something that matters, 3) Spike's fear of rejection and not living up to expectations.
Angel-
1) his father's condemnation of him, 2) his father's refusal to acknowledge his desires
3) Angel's fear of failing.
Is Angel doomed to make his own father's mistake over and over and over again with different horrible results?
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no subject
Date: 2003-11-15 09:42 am (UTC)But honestly, I don't think they are that similar, especially not in their interaction with parental units. William had the love and support of his mother, and no visible father figure -- once he joined up with Angelus et al, he was rebellious and defiant. Much like Connor, I'd say, perhaps unconsciously wanting Angel's approval but unwilling to purposely seek that approval. OTOH Wesley had a very visible and negative father figure (though it's possible his mother is much like Anne). In the beginning, Wesley constantly sought approval from Angel, trying to be the "good boy" whom daddy could praise.
That said, I do like the subtle sibling rivalry between Spike and Wesley. "Why does he get to sit in the front?" "Oh, I thought you were found in a cabbage patch." It's cute :) Actually, it reminds me of early S1 and Wes and Cordy's sibling rivalry, and early S2 Wesley's insecurity around Gunn.
One other difference between Spike and Wesley: Spike tends to treat women either in an old-fashioned romantic chivalrous way (Buffy, Dru), or as inconsequential (Harmony). OTOH, Wesley treats women either chivalrously (Fred as "Madonna") or with great disdain (Lilah as "Eve"). But the chivalry at least is one thing they have in common.
3) Wes' own fear of failure and weakness - of just being a sissy?
I don't really think Wesley's fear is fear of being a sissy. It's not really being a sissy that worries him; the sissy factor seems only a by-product (and not even always a by-product) of failing miserably. Wesley's greatest fear, I think, is of becoming his father. Yet some of the things that make him just like his father -- the ruthlessness, the willingness to do just about anything to accomplish his goals, the arrogance and belief that he, alone, is in the right -- make Wesley a strong and effective fighter (if a wee bit unbalanced!). Which is why "Billy" was such a fantastic episode, and why I simply adore S4. It's like watching a Wesley train wreck ;)
1) Angel and Spike - so cute trying to make Wesley feel better!
2) Wes/Fred - the 'ship that's better off sunk.
3) Roy Dotrice - so, so cool!
4) AD - absolutely brilliant.
Romantic differences
Date: 2003-11-16 09:55 am (UTC)I think Wes & Spike's *arcs* are very much alike -- it's *how* they got to their current states that differs. Both have come from being dandyish overeducated prigs with no social skills to being badass toughguys with marginally more social skills. One had to be vamped to become "Spike" instead of Wiliam and the other had to go thru some exceedingly rough knocks in life to become "Wes" instead of Wesley. There is a core of insecurity in each of them, the inner dork that never goes away. As Darla said, "What we were, informs all that we are to become" or something like that. Spike is more of a conscious construct than DarkWes, but buffoonish William and Wesley are still there, still part of them.
I don't how see how Wes' greatest fear is becoming his father. I think it's that'll he'll never live up to the expectations of his father. But by killing RoboDad, he comes to realize how much of a hold his father has over him and can start to get out from under that. When Wesley can get to a point where he no longer needs or wants his father's approval, then he'll be his own man. Same thing with Angel who has been a paternal figure to him. By the end of Lineage, Angel, one father figure, has released him from the burden of his expectations. He may never get that from his real father, but he can release himself from the stranglehold of that relationship.
If he had actually killed his father, then he would've put himself in the same position as Angel and Spike: killing the parent whose approval defines him. But he didn't, so he can grow and move on. Angel & Spike did do that, plus as unsouled demons they couldn't grow up beyond those moments. As souled demons, they can start. LMPTM was just the beginning IMO for Spike, still lots more to go through now that his mother issues are not so traumatic for him.
punkinpuss/alice
Re: Romantic differences
Date: 2003-11-16 03:08 pm (UTC)LOL! You're right, I was trying to show how they're both similar and different. Spike, as badly as he treated Harmony, at least does not stick women into saint/whore roles. That's what I was trying to point out.
I think Wes & Spike's *arcs* are very much alike -- it's *how* they got to their current states that differs. [...] There is a core of insecurity in each of them, the inner dork that never goes away.
Totally agree with you here. They come from similar backgrounds in terms of their "young" self. I guess I was just emphasising how far their respective journeys have taken them. And I'm not sure I agree their arcs are that similar. I see more similarity between Angel and Wes, actually. There are definite parallels in S3-S4.
I don't how see how Wes' greatest fear is becoming his father. I think it's that'll he'll never live up to the expectations of his father.
Agree that in S1-S2 Wesley's fear was that he wouldn't live up to his father figure's expectations. But after Angel fired him, and Wes had to take up the mantle of responsibility, I think he definitely moved away from needing that kind of approval. The Pylea arc cemented Wesley's move to a position of power as head of Angel Investigations. That's why I don't think it's so much need for parental approval that really drives him for S3-S4. Sure, in "Lineage" all those old fears came back, but it's more like a temporary concern -- like the first time your parents come to visit after you've gotten married or moved out or something. "Lineage", I think, helped to bring some closure to Wes, but he'd already learned to live without parental approval in S2.
Thanks for the reply, even though we don't exactly agree :) You could be right that Wesley's greatest fear is not becoming his father. Actually, I'm kinda wavering on that issue too. Wes became a lot like his father in S4, and never showed any concern over his transformation. In fact, I think he rather enjoyed his new bad self!
So I'm reconsidering his greatest fear to be fear of failure -- failure at not making the right decisions, of not being good enough to single-handedly save the world (not saying he's supposed to, but at times he's arrogant enough to think it's his duty), of not measuring up and therefore losing all his friends and family (which plays into the approval thing, but isn't quite the same).
Btw...
Date: 2003-11-16 03:13 pm (UTC)Just email me at: scrollgirl at livejournal dot com
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