And the appeal of Tumblr continues to bewilder....and the Buffy/Xander pairing raises it's ugly head

[shadowkat]

The appeal of Tumblr continues to bewilder me. I think if the only way you engage in social media is via a smartphone, in which case it must be very appealing. But it's wickedly hard to follow. Nor do they appear to say anything.

Example? Topic: "Why isn't the Buffy/Xander pairing more popular?"

Here's the insanely interesting and thoughtful responses:

nikiiwi likes this
mcgani reblogged this from luscious2 and added:
Oh, I think that was a miscommunication in my wording. He spies her kissing Angel, but I didn’t mean it in the sense...
tennyo-elf likes this
luscious2 reblogged this from mcgani and added:
Correction: Xander never spies on Buffy in Revelation. He noticed Angel walking inside his home and Xander peered...
transparently-uncreative likes this
electricsbananas reblogged this from restfield
buffydale likes this
katzenschlafs reblogged this from apprenticebard
ilikemyshipsnotyours reblogged this from thirteenthblackbird and added:
Lol, I’m not entirely sure if that’s true but I do know that season 7 was supposed to have Buffy/Xander but than the...
thirteenthblackbird reblogged this from restfield and added:
In a LiveJournal thread I recently read that Buffy/Xander was supposed to be the romance of season 1 but that Angel was...
azzthetix likes this
piggiesftw likes this
thatsnothowitworks likes this
protoneoromantic reblogged this from restfield and added:
Personally, I don’t ship them much because of how deeply I appreciate the beauty of their canon narrative which is so...
sweet-poisoning reblogged this from restfield
torrilin reblogged this from ilikemyshipsnotyours and added:
Keep in mind I didn’t say “Xander never treats Buffy like a person”. I think he doesn’t do a good job when he’s busy...
hndwrttn reblogged this from shutupthatswhy
antisocialit3 likes this
connivinglittleshit reblogged this from shutupthatswhy
hndwrttn likes this
mollymollymay likes this
uranussatellite likes this
shutupthatswhy reblogged this from spikeghost
spikeghost reblogged this from world-comes-to-an-end
world-comes-to-an-end reblogged this from teenageantichrist
teenageantichrist reblogged this from world-comes-to-an-end and added:
^^yesAnd not to mention the fact that Xander was overly controlling with all of his girlfriends. With both Cordelia and...
cyclops likes this
frelling-tralk reblogged this from ilikemyshipsnotyours and added:
To me Xander is a “nice guy” because high school Xander never got over Buffy turning him down. He didn’t handle it...
tinyspacekitty likes this
yusgi likes this
cosmic-moon-power likes this
butyoucanttaketheskyfromme reblogged this from drusillathekiller
parsnippletickle likes this
robotthatscreams likes this
magicboxprompts reblogged this from drusillathekiller and added:
Great post!
cloverover-dover likes this
liberiangirl85 reblogged this from ilikemyshipsnotyours and added:
I wish the show didn’t have such an open ending when it came to Buffy’s relationships, it would have been nice to see...

Or in summary: I love this post, reblog, reblog, I don't know why they didn't, reblog, reblog..

Now doesn't that just make you want to drop everything right now and go join Tumblr??? I do. Not like emails at work aren't head-ache inducing enough.

The most interesting bit? Not to mention creative? The names people have come up with to call themselves on tumblr. I'm particularly fond of robotthatscreams, parsnippletickle, cloverover-dover and cosmic-moon-power. (Oh I adore this sentence: robotthatscreams like this.) And ilikemyshipsnotyours is clever and honest. LOL!

My response to the question at hand?

Why isn't the Buffy/Xander pairing more popular?


1) Doyle Response:
Whedon nixed it because it was boring. (He wasn't wrong.) [That's actually a true story - they pushed it in S7, he nixed it. The rumor: He wanted to do a Wood/Buffy romance, but Gellar talked him out of it apparently...because he was planning on killing off Wood - which she also talked him out of. (I'm not sure I buy that one, Gellar had no clout the final season. If he wanted to do it, he would have.) But the Buffy/Xander bit was true.] Note - when you do a television series that has a superhero and two or three sidekicks, you never ever put the superhero with one of the sidekicks, because after a while its boring, there's no romantic tension. They never put the sidekick with the hero...you'd have to either kill off the sidekick or have some huge problem happen.
In Buffy they avoided it for three reasons, 1)boring. Happy relationships in teen horror drama soap operas are boring because the writers don't know how to create conflict that isn't melodramatic 2) what I mentioned above, and 3) the series writers loved doomed romantic relationships or romantic conflict. The heroine and her friends weren't permitted to be happy in love - their relationships were doomed to failure - because that's how the writers built conflict.

2) Watsonian Response:

The characters don't work together. They are too similar. Both are judgmental, with serious Daddy issues, and quippy. Opposites work better in drama.

I wrote a long essay about it - go here: http://www.oocities.org/shadowkatbtvs/bx_monsters.html

3.)Fandom wise? I was a Xander/Willow shipper until S4. Then I shifted to Willow/Tara, Xander/Anya.

Comments

[kerkevik-2014.livejournal.com]

Personally I don't engage in much fandom stuff on my tumblr. Pictures, politics, and links to articles.

For me I still retain a wish that Xander and Cordelia had worked things out; they both made the other a better person for me. I have linked him with Faith though.

I didn't like Xander much at first, because he just seemed to be hurting Willow; over time I came to realise that I only really liked either when they were with someone else. He with Cordelia; she with Oz, then Tara, and then, after I started reading her in fanfic, Kennedy.

If not Cordy I think I could say I was a Xander/Renee fan; in some of my post-series verses I've borrowed her and paired them. I shudder at Xander & Dawn as a couple since, to me, they are like brother and sister and I find the pairing as creepy as Giles with any of the kids under his charge.

kerk

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I think Tumblr works fine for pictures, but not so well for text. And it's tailor made for smartphones.

Sort of agree on what you state above on Xander.

I admittedly gave up on the comics after S8 completed its arc. That said, regarding Xander/Dawn?

I shudder at Xander & Dawn as a couple since, to me, they are like brother and sister and I find the pairing as creepy as Giles with any of the kids under his charge.

I agree. Not helped by the fact that the actor who portrayed Xander was 15-20 years older. He's about 48 now. MT is in her early twenties. Putting Xander with Dawn, was a bit like putting Cordelia with Connor.

Nick Brendan apparently agrees with us. He poked fun at it at Q&A at one of the Cons. (I watched it on YouTube, a while back.) It's hilarious, because he's sitting next to James Marsters at the time. And Marsters, who is about 5-6 years older than Brendan, had considered dating MT at one point, and is married to a woman that is MT's age.
You watch him in the clip try to crawl under the table.

I think Brendan may have convinced the current writers to break up that relationship, once he joined the comic writing team.

I think Xander worked best with Cordelia or maybe Anya, because he needed someone who could put him in his place. And you're right both Xander and Cordy did make each other better people.

[kerkevik-2014.livejournal.com]

re: Xander and Cordelia, you might find this fic I wrote back at the start of 2013 interesting.

http://kerkevik.livejournal.com/166047.html

It is on my old lj, but I'm starting to transfer relevant older posts, especially fics to my current one.

kerk

[liliaeth]

I just can't ship Xander with Faith, not after her attempted rape of him in s3. One that she didn't stop until Angel came in and saved Xander. It would have been one thing if she'd learned from her mistake, the way that Spike did, but Faith never even seems to have realized what she did wrong. In fact, even in s7, she was joking about it to Anya. Maybe if the show had given the two of them a scene, instead of that stupid pillow fight wet dream scene. But since Faith never once showed any remorse over her actions to Xander, I personally just can't ship them.

[kerkevik-2014.livejournal.com]

I do kind of agree with you; I do think that Faith would have thought about what she did whilst in prison and to have it made a joke, probably because male rape is largely taken far less seriously than female rape, which as we can all see is not taken nearly as seriously as it should be, was a huge mistake.

Most of my Faith fanfic is based around her and Tara as a couple, but there was a chemistry between the two; Faith was lashing out most at the people who tried to help her the most, so it was maybe understandable that she'd fin dit hardest to come to terms with what she nearly did to Xander; personally I believe if Angel hadn't intervened she would have murdered him.

If I do write a proper story about them as a couple the whole set of issues you mention will have to be dealt with.

[liliaeth]

Oh they definitely had chemistry, and you're right about her lashing out at the very people that were trying to help her.

Honestly, Faith was at her worst at the point of her attack against Xander, and if the show had dealt with that, I wouldn't have an issue. But instead they once again treat the rape of men as something comedic and nothing serious. (just like they did in regards to Buffy's attempted rape of Spike in Gone)

And because the writers can't take it serious, they didn't even consider it something that needed to be dealt with between the two of them. (forgetting that physically Faith is far stronger than Xander and that Xander would have been helpless against her.

[rahirah]

To see the actual full comments, you have to click on each and every link. There really is some thoughtful commentary in there, it's just very time consuming to get to it. :P It's like an old threaded bulletin board, except each thread splits off into a separate board. Bleah.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Ugh. No.

At least with Voy...you clicked on a link and could see all the threads connected to it.

What you describe above sounds like way too much work. Tumblr for people with far too much time on their hands.

[fenchurche.livejournal.com]

Exactly! It's like friggin' huge step backward when it comes to messaging. I must admit, I have the same issue with Twitter. When something is worse at handling conversations than the BBS software I ran back in 1990, then there's something seriously wrong.

In other news, Damn kids! Get off my lawn! */curmudgeon*

[mamculuna.livejournal.com]

But I'd really like if LJ had a "like" button so I could like your post.

[liliaeth]

that's about one of the only two things I miss on lj, a like button, and the ease with which you can add pics to a post on tumblr. If LJ were to fix those two, it'd be so superior to tumblr that people would have to come back. (a girl can dream right?)

[mamculuna.livejournal.com]

So true! But then, I never went there in the first place...

[dlgood.livejournal.com]

It's not even that Buffy and Xander are too similar - because they do have significant points of disagreement and ways in which they are fundamentally different. The problem, IMO, was that he had no particular perspective to stand in opposing to her - experiences or professional training that is any different than hers.

If she argues with Riley, Spike or Angel - it might be an emotional case - or they might be adding a viewpoint to the story she lacks because they can check off different items on their bios and resumes... There's more room for depth in a storyline than you can get from a character that is already from the same demographic.

Which is why pretty much every TV show I can think of tries to pair its protagonists with characters that either have conflicting jobs, or are from totally different places.

[liliaeth]

There's also the simple fact that they lacked any kind of romantic chemistry. Xander was always more interesting as her brother, than he'd ever be as a love interest. As a love interest, he was too controlling, too likely to feel insulted by the idea that she was stronger and better than him at anything he held valuable. (Angel was too, but at least with Angel, you already had the tension of the vampire-slayer thing that made it interesting enough to get past)

[mamculuna.livejournal.com]

My feeling is that Xander is basically a nice guy at heart. His self-doubt is too close to the surface, he's a friend, not a challenger. Angel and Spike were at least partly bad guys with a possibly redeemable side (leaving out everything about vampires and souls, just looking at them as people, which they partly were). Buffy's own dangerous side was drawn to their danger. The bad side of them drew her, the possible goodness kept her from leaving.Xander was a friend. She knew he'd be a good guy in the end, no matter what.

[dlgood.livejournal.com]

Independent (but not unrelated to your comment above) they also have life experiences that she does not have, and can offer her a different perspective. Xander hasn't really experienced much in life that Buffy hasn't - so the character doesn't have as much to add or standing to be a "challenger" to her even if that was intended as his role.

She cannot have a discussion with Xander about their group that is independent of their personal history fighting together. As a writer, it's harder to add to the story that way.

[mamculuna.livejournal.com]

True point. A friend might be an excellent match in real life, but in a story, you need differences and conflicts and challenges. None of that came with Buffy/Xander.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

You can actually do that in a story. I've seen it done. Friday Night Lights, The West Wing, Grey's Anatomy, Poldark, Dowton Abbey, The Waltons, Happy Days, Friends, How I Met Your Mother...have all pulled it off.

But, if your show is structure to emphasize and play off of romantic conflict or angst, then it's not going to work. Television series like Buffy, Vampire Diaries, Arrow, Flash, Gotham, Daredevil, pretty much all the genre shows and a lot of the cop procedural dramas, although not all of them, and possibly the Good Wife, won't make that work.

Depends on the writers, the dramatic structure of the series, and the emphasis on romance not to mention sex. Sexual tension requires conflict in a story. (Not so much in real life - in fact you don't want that in real life.)

I remember being at a meetup once...and people were asking how I could like a romantic relationship -- all they did was fight each other. And I responded, because it's impossible - so I find it interesting to watch. It's compelling. Watching people make out on screen isn't all that interesting. Sort of boring actually. Nothing happens. (Boring for the actors too apparently, which is why they often play practical jokes.) When they fight - there's unpredictability - we don't know who will win, if they will both kill each other, have sex, talk, what? Interesting. Do I want that in reality? No. Of course not.

Now in a series like Friday Night Lights, the focus isn't one the Coach and his Wife's relationship, it's on their relationships with everyone else. Same deal with Firefly, the emphasis wasn't on Zoe and Wash, it was on their interactions with everyone else as a couple and as individuals. But if the focus is on the couple and the angst, then you need conflict.

[mamculuna.livejournal.com]

Yeah, that's what makes it so unlike the real world, where the goal is less conflict, not more!

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Let's face it, reality tends to be boring to watch. That's why reality shows have people manipulating the story and contestants to create conflict. They aren't very good at it, it feels contrived, hence the reason I don't watch reality tv shows.

In reality, I hate conflict, and have little tolerance for melodrama and soap opera.
But I eat it up like candy on tv, books, and movies.

Sometimes I think fiction is heightened reality or exaggerated reality, playing out our fears, conflicts, dreams and worries in various what-if scenarios to see what works and what doesn't. And to ultimately provide a safe way of learning through others mistakes.
(ie. Dating the bad boy may result in great sex, but over the long term it doesn't have much staying power, or work out the way we'd hoped.)

[mamculuna.livejournal.com]

Yeah, art is like dreams, where we have to make little things very big and obvious so we can see and understand them.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Independent (but not unrelated to your comment above) they also have life experiences that she does not have, and can offer her a different perspective. Xander hasn't really experienced much in life that Buffy hasn't - so the character doesn't have as much to add or standing to be a "challenger" to her even if that was intended as his role.

I think this is a good point. You need to have an interaction between the characters that furthers their arcs. Spike for example worked - because he had the sick mother as did Buffy. But differently, and how his sick mother affected him, and how her's affected her - had different results. Same deal with Angel - and the Daddy issues.
Through Spike and Angel - the writers could examine Buffy's parental issues, but in a way that did not make Buffy herself too dark.

Riley, Spike, and Angel provided the writers with ways to explore other things besides "romance" or "friendship" or "high school".

[cactuswatcher.livejournal.com]

Hey, I cheered for Xander to date Buffy in season 1. But Buffy so firmly put him in the friend zone then, that I don't think there was any believable way to bring them together as young adults in the last few seasons. A fling maybe, but it couldn't last more than a handful of episodes with it clear from the start it wasn't going to last.

[lusciousxander.livejournal.com]

I have read some Xander/Buffy set during S7 and post-show and found them enjoyable - however, I would have liked those fics much more if they were friendship-focused. I'm at the stage where I don't really want to ship characters, I just wanna read a meaningful fanfic about two characters understanding each other and overcoming their differences without the middling of sex that ruins all the beauty of the fic.

I've been reading a lot of Xander/Giles lately because I enjoy how fanfic deals with that friendship that canon didn't pay much attention to, but when it starts to take a slash direction, I stop reading. I just want friendship/gen fics!

Right there with you...

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I have to agree with you there. I've fond in television serials like Buffy that the friendships, sibling relationships, and family relationships are far more interesting than the romantic ones. Currently at the stage - in which I prefer to ship friendships over romantic relationships.

In part, because the conflict isn't sexually based. (ie. will they or won't they?) The problem with romantic conflict is it tends to be fairly conclusive or it goes in a circle, break-up, get back together, break-up. (UGH). Serial writers, for some reason, don't tend to be that interested in writing romantic relationships between people who are also friends, and depicting conflicts that aren't just sexual in nature. It shouldn't just be about the sex.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

They did try in the comics. It didn't work. Although the comics didn't work in a lot of ways...and aren't really canon to the series, so doesn't matter.

At any rate, I agree. There was a smidgen of a possibility between Season 1 and Season 2, but after "Prophecy Girl" it was clear that Buffy/Xander weren't going anywhere. I think that was the episode where he asks her to the Prom and she says, really not into you that way, Xander. Which of course sets him up perfectly to be the hero...by saving her from Angel.

[lusciousxander.livejournal.com]

I have tried to engage into the discussion on Tumblr and made two or three posts, but then I didn't find them so I'm simply giving up on it.

Tumblr isn't suited for any type of discussion. I do enjoy it for the political pictures and comics and think it's perfect for fanart.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I think it's too hard to track to have a discussion. Facebook works better, weirdly. I never thought I'd say that.

Twitter is also impossible to have any meaningful discussion on.

So I'm guessing the people who are chatting on these forums aren't really interested in having a meaningful discussion?

[lusciousxander.livejournal.com]

I wrote a long essay about it - go here: http://www.oocities.org/shadowkatbtvs/bx_monsters.html

I've just read it and it's a wonderful, wonderful essay. Thank you so much for sharing. :)

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Thank you. You're welcome. ;-)

[sparrow2000.livejournal.com]

lusciousxander pointed me at your essay on Buffy/Xander. I just wanted to let you know that I thought it was beautifully written - thoughtful, articulate, engaging and extremely insightful.

Thank you for sharing.

Sparrow :)

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

You're welcome ;-)

And thanks, I'm glad you enjoyed it.