Happy Thanksgiving amongst other things...

[shadowkat]

1.Spent a lovely Thanksgiving at my parents home in Hilton Head Island, SC. Head back to NYC tomorrow morning. We had a gluten-free Thanksgiving, with pumpkin pie, stuffing, turkey, all the fixings. Belly is filled to capacity.

Walked on the beach with my Dad. Read Cloud Atlas on my parents deck overlooking their lagoon. No gators in sight, but did see an egret, a few geckos, and an abandoned spider web, also watched football and the Thanksgiving Parade.

2. Finished the X-men comic series Avengers vs. the X-Men, which like X-Men: Schism, is an odd series, in that you, as the reader, aren't quite sure who, if anyone, you should be rooting for. Not your Daddy's comic books. There's no clear villains or heroes here. It's also frustrating in a way, because by the end of it -- I was annoyed with the alleged good guys, the Avengers. Much like Whedon's two films of the same name, the Avengers are a superhero team that wrecks havok on the world, allegedly to fight a super-villain, then wanders off unscathed, but does little to help or even acknowledge the havok they caused. Their solution to all ills is violence, war, or fighting. And they demonize their enemies. In the movies - the villains are far more clear-cut, black hats, with swirling moustaches. Although one can't help but wonder if Thor and Iron Man were a tad more on the humble side, if Loki and Ultron would have been a wee bit less destructive.

Here, the Avengers (including former X-men and Cyclops former co-leader - Wolverine and Beast) in all their self-righteous glory storm the X-men's island Utopia to take custody of Hope Summers, Scott "Cyclops" Summers - ward and adopted granddaughter, whose his son died to protect. The Avengers, much like Lucas Bishop before them, decide that if the Phoenix possesses Hope it will corrupt her as it did Jean Grey, and destroy the world. (Here the writers appear to forget Grant Morrison's arc, where Jean Grey embodied the Phoenix power and was not corrupted, in fact she was able to save both Wolverine and the world from Torn, also Rachel Summers who has a bit of the Phoenix, has had no problems.) So their solution is to take protective custody of Hope, experiment on her, and if necessary kill her. Cyclops understandably takes issue with this. Hope is literally Scott's last hope for his species survival, a species rendered practically extinct when the Scarlett Witch lost control of her powers and decided with the blink of an eye there should be no more mutants to punish her father. As a result there's only 200 left. The Scarlett Witch has rejoined the Avengers. Summers does everything possible to protect Hope. But Hope and Wolverine hook up - Hope requests that Wolverine give her a chance to prove that Scott is right, that she can handle the Phoenix and save mutantkind. Wolverine doesn't believe she can.
(This is the guy who fought Cyclops over the safety of kids, and insisted they be pulled out of the fight.) So while she's taking a nap, Wolverine notifies the Avengers, who pop up at the sanctuary to take custody of Hope. At this point the Phoenix force appears. Hope fears she can't handle it and asks Wolverine to kill her. Cyclops stops him. Iron Man interfers with the cosmic force, dispersing it into Cyclops and his rescue team, Majick, Emma Frost, Colossus, and Namor. At first the Phoenix 5 have good intentions..they attempt to save the world. They eradicate drought, hunger, first, war, and come up with new forms of safe energy. They outlaw weapons and violence. The last part annoys the world leaders and the Avengers - who argue about what to do next. Wolverine believes they'll lose control soon and should be put down.

The Avengers decide they need to invade Cyclops island Utopia and kidnap Hope again - who has all the answers. They succeed. Angered, Cyclops and his team chase after them. To be fair to Cyclops, he tries to keep everyone together. But the Avengers...keep pushing back. Eventually pissing off Namor, who wants to put them down. Cyclops insists this isn't a WAR. We don't want to kill or hurt anyone. We just want to reclaim and protect Hope, until she can accept the Phoenix power from us. Emma agrees with Namor and betrays Cyclops, telling Namor where Hope and the Avengers are - sending Namor to declare war on Wakanda, destroying that land. The Avengers blame Cyclops for Namor's actions -- which Cyclops didn't even know about -- until it was too late. At no point does anyone reach out to Cyclops the way he had once upon a time reached out to Jean, when she was the Phoenix. It's sad really.

Each person acts with their ego, not their heart. Our way is the only way. We're right. You're evil.
Professor Xavier who has an ugly habit of taking off during the tough decision making periods, then popping up again when things get really nasty - to throw his power around, ends up making things worse instead of better. He decides to take Cyclops down by himself - with his awesome mental powers. Cyclops, who at this point has been infused with the Phoenix power from three of the Five...is almost unbeatable. He takes Emma's power into himself and ends up killing Xavier - which drives him insane with guilt, rage, and frustration. It's the ghost of Jean, not any one else, who finally convinces him to let it go.

The power leaves him and goes back to Hope, who manages to undo the horrors he wrought, while under the Phoenix's control. Hope and Scarlett Witch fix everything.

At the end, everyone blames Cyclops for what happened. He's demonized and scapegoated - placed in a high security prison. And he does take responsibility for his actions, while no one else appears to.

I've read that many Marvel Comics fans were unable to read or look at the Avengers again after this series. It basically ruined the team for them. Along with the character of Wolverine, who the writers kill off a year later in the Series - The Death of Wolverine, mainly because at this point they'd run out of things to do with him. Iron Man does admit he's to blame for the Phoenix 5, and Steve Rodgers admits he made some poor decisions. Cyclops takes responsibility, but also states much to Rodgers annoyance that he does not regret the end result. That he was right in the end -- Hope was the salvation of his species. (That is before the writers decide to reboot the series and do away with mutants again, in what appears to be an attempt to match their film enterprise to the comics. IF so, it's a dumb idea and not working. I'm sort of glad they did it, because it gave me a stopping point.
I've stopped with Uncanny 600 -- where Cyclops does a sort of Million Man march of peace on Washington with his brother Alex. Everything after that - from the reviews I've read, makes no logical sense and appears to have jumped the rails.)

What fascinates me with these books is the political subtext ....the writers are showing the nationalistic or patriotic superhero team, aren't the good guys they and we think they are. They've demonized the other -- oh look, when we kill thousands, it's okay, because, hello, we're heroes! But when they do, they are villains. When we bomb people, it's not a problem - because that's a bad area, but when they do...oh villains. The Avengers attack the X-men. They storm the X-men's home. They
kidnap people under the X-men's protection. The X-men have done nothing to warrant it. They do it - out of fear. Then, when the X-men fight back...the Avengers scream foul. It reminds me a lot of what is going on now - the British, French, Russians, US, etc have at various points invaded the Middle East for their own reasons - fear, greed, power...and caused all sorts of chaos. Now we have a terrorist group attacking us. We like the Avengers have created our own monsters, we reap what we sow -- that appears to be the political subtext of these books.

At the end of the books, as Steve Rodgers and Wolverine interrogate Cyclops, it's hard not to cringe, and think boys, this would not have happened if you had not interfered. You threw the first punch.
You chose to solve it with violence.

Their stories and history says the same thing over and over again...violence causes more violence.
The Avengers, of course, being super-powered solders and weapons, never learn.

Overall, fascinating, but somewhat frustrating if you are a fan of either the X-men or the Avengers.



3. I'm thankful I do not have any violence in my life. That I got to spend the holidays with family.
Had food, shelter, and entertainment. Wishing the same for all who happen upon this post.

Also a belated happy birthday to those celebrating this week...

Comments

[petzipellepingo.livejournal.com]

Thank you. And glad to hear you had such a peaceful and wonderful Thanksgiving.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Thanks. ;-)

[liliaeth]

i have to disagree with you on Loki. Thor in his own movie did learn humility; It's just that Loki's a spoiled brat. In fact, Loki only ends up in a bad situation because of his own stupidity. If he hadn't been so damn idiotic, he would have left Thor alone when he was sent to earth. As the son of Odin, no one fought his right to rule Asgard when Odin went in his Odin sleep. By the time Thor learned humility, he would have accepted Loki as his ruler, and Loki would then have Thor and his friends standing at his side as his allies.

But instead, Loki screwed himself over, sending a monster after Thor, threatening the lives of innocent people. Turning the Warrior three and Sif against him, and forcing Thor to see him as the enemy.

All that's down to Loki's own failings.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

It's admittedly been a long time since I saw the movies...so I'll go with your assessment. They may very well have been far more simplestic, with a far less complex villain, than I gave them credit for.

[liliaeth]

I wouldn't say that makes Loki less complex, just less of the woobie that loki fans like to turn him into. (which to me is a very simplistic view of a complex character. (you know, blaming everything around Loki for Loki's crimes, instead of Loki's own issues)

It's like how in Jessica Jones, the series shows us some of Kilgrave's past that led him into being the psychopath he is today, without having said past excuse his present actions.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Ah, well, I hope you didn't think my original post was painting him out as a woobie?

I don't see him that way. Not really a fan of Loki. (Personally, I don't understand the appeal of either the character or actor.)

My difficulty -- is that fans will often give a hero a clean slate, and make it all the villain's fault -- which removes a bit of the complexity of the story and makes it rather black and white. ie. The good guys wear white hats, the bad guys wear black hats...and it's as simple as that.

Or in contrast, they do the poor woobie. Spike fans were notorious for this - which aggravated me.

People are such extremists, forgetting that if the villain is a woobie or completely nasty, the story they are a fan of, becomes sort of one-dimensional and not all that interesting.

This is the problem with being fannishly devoted to one character -- you can fall into the trap of giving that character a blank slate, trying to justify why you liked the character. (While you could say that I'm fan of the characters Cyclops and Spike - what intrigues me is their complexity and arcs. They go from one extreme to the other - or appear to. )

That said? I didn't find the Avengers to be all that well-written or complex a film. Loki was a bit cliche as a villain at times. I think the X-men films have had more complexity in storyline and villains. (I was admittedly never much of an Avengers fan or Thor fan -- found them to be a bit....bland in comparison to the other Marvel characters. I was an X-Men fan, the other comic book characters...never really captivated me all that much. Oh, I dabbled. But not a true fan.)

[liliaeth]

I was ok with the Avengers, but the one big problem with the team movies, is that they're written by Joss Whedon. I know he's well liked as a writer, but he's a rather... simplistic writer in some concerns.

For one thing, he completely does NOT get Steve Rogers, (or Thor for that matter). In contrast to the Russos who do. He writes Steve way more simplistic than the character actually is, because, in some ways like you, he sees him as a simplistic character. Which Steve Rogers plain out isn't. It's the mistake a lot of people make, that just because a character is good and heroic, that that means they have to be flawless or boring. They don't. But they're not as easy to write, and are more demanding to the writer.

It's why for many years, writers wrote Scott Summers as the one dimensional leader with a stick up his butt, instead of the complex character he is. A lot of writers go for the easy characters, boring ones like Wolverine, or Gambit.

The thing is that there's nothing more complex, nothing harder to write, than a good man. (or woman)And Whedon made the mistake with Steve, that he made with Riley as well, which is to see them as one dimensional characters, rather than the complex mature characters that they actually are.

Thor for example was a flawed character, who made mistakes.(one of which being almost causing a war due to his own shortsightedness) Only unlike Loki, he got over himself and his own issues, learned humility and became a better person in consequence. That's why I like his character. That and the actor managed to play him as both wise and naive at the same time. Whereas Loki has always bored me, because he's one of those characters that sound complex, while they're really rather one dimensional jerks.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I don't think Whedon is a simplestic writer - his Astonishing X-men arc and what he did with Scott Summers during that arc was quite good. But like myself, I don't think he ever was an Avengers fan.

He even admits it in various interviews - that he really didn't follow the Avengers that closely.

Wolverine and Gambit aren't boring characters...they were sort of overdone. Wolvie was put into every single title, regardless of whether they fit in the titles. (Seriously, Wolverine as an Avenger? He was also put in The Defenders -- which again, seriously? )

With Wolvie - less is more. And it's not helped by the constant retconning and backstory. The character is so out of character and as a result comes across as a flaming hypocrit in the comics post Schism, to the point I can't stand him. And Captain America and Stark are written similarily in the Avengers vs. X-men arc. I couldn't stand Steve Rodgers or Wolverine after that arc. Stark comes out the best.

The problem with comics is you get a lot of turn-over in writers. And the writers don't follow the entire story just the parts that interest them. I get that, I do the same thing, but I'm not writing the story.

But to say, Wolverine, who is basically 400 years old, messed up, and committed some horrendous act and is struggling to redeem himself - after the US turned him into a living weapon...is sort of...I mean, come on.

Rogers is just a weak guy who signed on to Super Solider program. There isn't much there...to explore. He's Joe Average. And yes, Joe Average wanting to be and becoming a super-hero is frigging hard to write well -- you can fall into Marty Stu territory far too easily.

Summers is actually easier and he is written fairly well in places. I never read him as a boy scout with a stick up his butt. I saw the nuances in the character - I read him more like Whedon did - which is a character who was either completely out of control or controlled. He fears losing control - because the moment he lets his guard down, people die. And he fears mediocrity. With Summers - you have a perfectionist, who has intentionally crippled himself in order to maintain control. Wolverine and Summers are interesting to compare, because in some respects they have the same problem, both need to maintain control.

But I can discuss those guys...the Avengers? I'm at a loss, because the nationalistic superteam never interested me. I don't like the Justice League that much either and struggle with Marvel Agents of Shield for similar reasons. X-men fan all the way. ;-)

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

You are right in a way - many writers are more interested in the anti-heroes path towards redemption, than the guy who wants to be a hero, or the boy scout. And unfortunately, those writers are often better at the craft than the one's writing for the heroes.

Take for instance "Breaking Bad" - an anti-hero tale, with pitch perfect dialogue, about an anti-hero, who doesn't want to be redeemed. Or Chris Nolan's Batman series.

It doesn't have to be that way. It's just what interests certain writers.

Of the Marvel films - the ones that I liked were the Captain American ones, oddly enough. I found the Thor films a bit...over-the-top. And well, I loved the Iron Man flicks, but I'd watch Robert Downy, Jr. read the phone book.

Overall? I prefer the X-men flicks - specifically Days of Future Past (the best superhero flick since Dark Knight) and X-men First Class.

I think the appeal of the Avengers comics will be forever lost on me. I've read a few here and there (as part of cross-overs), but they don't interest me as much.

[liliaeth]

Rogers is just a weak guy who signed on to Super Solider program. There isn't much there...to explore. He's Joe Average. And yes, Joe Average wanting to be and becoming a super-hero is frigging hard to write well -- you can fall into Marty Stu territory far too easily.


But see, you're once again turning Steve into less than he is.See, Steve isn't Joe Average, that's your first mistake. Wolverine is Joe Average, he's the regular guy who's been through crap and behaves like an asshole about it.

Steve is the sick disabled kid from the poor background, growing up in a gay neighborhood who went through all kinds of crap, and instead of becoming an asshole, he became a protector. He became someone who wanted more than anything to help others. Who didn't want to give up, or give in to the darkness.

He's someone who was a good man, before he became physically strong.

He was so desperate to be more than his weakness, that he allowed a scientist to experiment on him, just so he could fight, just imagine how desperate you'd have to be for that.

Steve is the veteran, suffering from PTSD, who's so adjusted to life in a war situation, that he can't manage to readjust to a civilian life. Not because he likes war, but because being a soldier has become his 'normal'. Like a marine that keeps signing back up for new tours in active warzones, because it's less scary than having to go back to living a 'normal' life.

Steve isn't perfect, he's overly stubborn, inclined to get into fights, even if he doesn't have to. He's argumentative, self righteous at times. But in the end, he'll do the right thing, because it's the right thing, because he wants to help people, because it's what's best for others and not necessarily for himself. He's loyal, kind, sarcastic. And it's his loyalty that often gets him in trouble, because it's not always a good thing.

And the thing is, throughout it all, his greatest strength? It's not that he's physically strong. Or athletic.

His greatest power is his righteousness, just as it's his greatest weakness. He's so sure of his purpose, of his goal, that he can pull others in it with him, make them believe what he believes in. Make them stand up for something larger than themselves. It's what led to Civil War, because it was his belief that what he was doing was right, that led others to agree with him.

It's a risk he has to live with every day, knowing that others follow him, because they believe in him, and the responsibility that comes with that.

He's not a power fantasy, no more so than Cyclops is. He's our belief that we can be more than we are. And because he believes that we can be more, he makes other people reach for the sky. That's what's fascinating about Steve Rogers. And it would still be there, even if he never got the supersoldier syndrome, even if he were still the same weakling he used to be.

As can be proven by the fact that Bucky and Peggy followed him, even before he ever became Captain America.

What makes the Avengers so interesting, is that being an Avenger, was never about being the most powerful person out there. It's what sets them apart from DC teams like the Justice League. It's how they work together to become greater as a whole.

They're not a family, like the X-men, they're an army unit, of a sorts. And because of that, bad writers often fall into cliché plots. But when written by people like Kurt Busiek, they're Amazing.

But then I've always preferred characters like Peter Parker, like Steve Rogers, like Scott McCall, like Duncan MacLeod, like... exactly because it's a lot harder to remain a good person, than it is to give in to the crappy world, and become an asshole. Because becoming an asshole is taking the easy way out.

[liliaeth]

Which is why it's easier to write characters like that. We all want the powerfantasy, of being strong and powerful, without having to give a fuck about anyone else. Heroes are harder, exactly because they don't give in to that, because they try to be better. And a lot of writers prefer taking the easy way out. It's a lot easier to solve a problem, if you can have your anti-hero just kill the bad guy, or not care. But when you're dealing with a character who does care, then you can start wondering how they'll solve a problem, in a new and unique way. And that is far more interesting.
(kinda like Buffy being put before the choice of killing Dawn to save the universe, and finding a third option, because she's a hero, and she's better than giving in to the easy option.)

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

What I've noticed in the comics, movies and the television series ...is a consistent and at times striking commentary on how violence and/or killing does not effectively resolve the problem. All it does is make it worse.

Marvel is doing something interesting -- they are showing that depending on your perspective both the neither the Avengers nor the X-men are necessarily heroes or villains, it's their choices that define which they are, and well, it can change on any given day. When they choose violence -- to resolve their problems through hurting others, then they are portrayed in negative light and cause a negative ripple effect. However, when they choose another path - a non-violent path, one that is kind, that helps and aids others, the result is a positive ripple effect.

Rogers in Avengers vs. X-men cautions against Wolverine killing Hope. Let's find another way -- this one just makes things worse. And Iron Man and Rogers hunt for a way for Wanda and Hope to work peacefully together to resolve the problem. Where they screw up -- is when they attack and threaten Cyclops with violence, threatening to kill Hope or take her prisoner.
Invading his home - causes a negative ripple effect. Instead of sitting down and attempting to explain what their goal is or offering to work with his team of scientists - which would have achieved their goal faster, they attempt to take her away from him, patronize him, and treat him like a villain.

When we demonize the other - we create our own demons or villains, or so the writers appear to be stating. Instead of incarcerating Cyclops, they should have found a way to rehabilitate and heal him -- as they did with their friend Wanda, Scarlett Witch, instead they treated him like scum, they demonized him - and did experiments...causing a far greater problem.

The anti-hero, such as Walter White, is often the creation of the society in which he resides. White had cancer, no way to pay bills, and was being treated as a loser - for teaching chemistry and not running a major company.
If the people surrounding him had made different choices, he may not have gone down that road. And the series itself is a trageic cautionary tale similar to Shakespeare's MacBeth.

In these comics, they show how revenge and punishment or an eye-for-an-eye mentality just doesn't work in the long run. It's short-sighted. And results in a vicious and unending cycle of violence.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Actually, Wolverine isn't Joe Average:

Wolverine was born James Howlett in Cold Lake, Alberta, Canada, during the late 1880s, purportedly to rich farm owners John and Elizabeth Howlett[30] though he is actually the illegitimate son of the Howletts' groundskeeper, Thomas Logan.[31] After Thomas is thrown off the Howletts' property for an attempted rape perpetrated by his other son, named simply Dog, he returns to the Howlett manor and kills John Howlett. In retaliation, young James kills Thomas with bone claws that emerge from the back of his hands, as his mutation manifests.[32] He flees with his childhood companion, Rose, and grows into manhood on a mining colony in the Yukon Territory, adopting the name "Logan."[33] Logan accidentally kills Rose with his claws, causing him to leave the colony and live in the wilderness among wolves[34] until he is captured and placed in a circus.[35] Saul Creed, brother of Victor Creed, frees Logan, but after he betrays Logan and Clara Creed to Nathaniel Essex, Logan drowns Creed in Essex's potion.[36] Logan returns to civilization, residing with the Blackfoot people. Following the death of his Blackfoot lover, Silver Fox, at the hands of Victor Creed, now known as Sabretooth,[37] he is ushered into the Canadian military during World War I. Logan spends time in Madripoor before settling in Japan, where he marries Itsu and has a son, Daken, of whom Logan for many years is unaware.

During World War II, Logan teams up with Captain America[38] and continues a career as a soldier of fortune. He serves with the 1st Canadian Parachute Battalion[39] during D-Day, and later with the CIA before being recruited by Team X, a black ops unit.

As a member of Team X, Logan is given false memory implants. Eventually breaking free of this mental control, he joins the Canadian Defence Ministry. Logan is subsequently kidnapped by the Weapon X program, where he remains captive and experimented on, until he escapes.[40] It is during his imprisonment by Weapon X that he has adamantium forcibly fused onto his bones. James and Heather Hudson help him recover his humanity, and Logan begins work as an intelligence operative for the Canadian government's Department H. He becomes Wolverine, one of Canada's first superheroes. In his first mission, he is dispatched to stop the destruction caused by a brawl between the Hulk and the Wendigo.[41]

Later, Professor Charles Xavier recruits Wolverine to a new iteration of his superhero-mutant team, the X-Men.[42] It was later revealed that Wolverine had been sent to assassinate Xavier, who wiped Logan's memories and forced him to join the X-Men.[43]

In X-Men #25 (1993), at the culmination of the "Fatal Attractions" crossover, the supervillain Magneto forcibly removes the adamantium from Wolverine's skeleton. This massive trauma causes his healing factor to burn out and also leads to the discovery that his claws are actually bone. Wolverine leaves the X-Men for a time, embarking on a series of adventures during which his healing factor returns. Feral by nature, Wolverine's mutation process will eventually cause him to degenerate physically into a more primitive, bestial state.[44]

After his return to the X-Men, Cable's son Genesis kidnaps Wolverine and attempts to re-bond adamantium to his skeleton.[45] This is unsuccessful and causes Wolverine's mutation to accelerate out of control. He is temporarily changed into a semi-sentient beast-like form. Eventually, the villain Apocalypse captures Wolverine, brainwashes him into becoming the Horseman Death, and successfully re-bonds adamantium to his skeleton. Wolverine overcomes Apocalypse's programming and returns to the X-Men.

From Wiki. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolverine_%28character%29

I don't read Avengers comics. The only Avengers comics I read were linked to the X-men (the reboot after Onslaught) and the Avengers vs. X-men, which as reviewed above did not depict any of the Avengers, except possibly T'Challa, Nova, Iron Man, and maybe Beast in a good light. The rest, I despised at the end of that arc.

Rogers comes across well in the Marvel films however.

Don't see myself picking them up either...too little time, too much money. ;-)

[ponygirl2000.livejournal.com]

Glad you had a good holiday!

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Thank you.;-)