This 'n That...

[shadowkat]

A huge thanks to everyone who responded to the late night pangs post. Your support is greatly appreciated. Also thanks for putting up with the whining - which only about thirty people get to witness, since I friend's lock all whining posts. A girl needs some privacy, you know. Granted posting on the internet can feel like shouting from a loud speaker at times, but with friend's lock and on livejournal, it feels a little more intimate.

Sorry haven't responded. Sort of in low-profile mode this week, after my emotional breakdown at the start of the week...feeling much better. Partly because I actually applied to six jobs this week so far. Partly because I was reminded today at a lovely lunch with two friends, (editor friend and S), that I'm not alone and there are others out there who have been struggling without a word for as long as I have. Job-hunting sucks. The only people who are any good at it are natural salesmen and enterprenurs who could probably make a living running their own business.

Oh that reminds me, fortune cookie at lunch today stated: "When Feeling Low, Try Contacting An Old Friend", I remember thinking, actually the new friends have been the most helpful lately - by new, the one's I've meet over the last two years through the wacky world of the internet. Course friendship is a transistory thing, people pass in and out of our lives periodically. It's up to us to take notice of them when they are in it.

Spending a quiet 4th of July weekend/Canada Day...all by my lonesome. Wales is off visiting family. CW visiting a friend and her mother. CJL at the ATPO board meet - lucky boy, beginning to feel envious of ATPO Board meet people - not for the BTVS/ATS stuff so much as the chocolat, cookies, and other sweets - oh and of course the actual face to face interaction.
Ah well. Que Sera Sera, as they say. Promise not to mope. Might actually try to write something creative for a change of pace. Started something tonight - spurned off of an idea I got watching a bad soap opera. See bad TV can give us good ideas.
Also might rent movies. Can't take self to Spiderman, promised CJL (okay he didn't actually receive my promise since stupid aol bounced my response, but hey, I wrote it and sent it), I'd see it when he gets back. The Trailer looks fantastic and it's gotten good reviews from my FL who I trust, well sort of trust.
Some of those people liked Van Helsing - so I am wary. There are other movies I wish to see - Bourne Supremacy (yes, Ludlum Spy-Espionage geek, sue me), and King Arthur (the people are so pretty and Guienvere actually seems to be a warrior here instead of a wimpering damsel). But one must be careful with finances especially since I need to buy new contacts and see the eye doctor next month.

At any rate, wishing those lurking out there or who are reading me on FL, a wonderful 4th of July Weekend.

PS: TV is getting more interesting - we have Roswell on at 4pm on Sci-Fi, Farscape on in the day, new Nip/Tuck episodes on at 10 pm on F/X, West Wing re-runs at 7pm on Bravo, Coupling on BBC America Sundays at 9pm, Arrested Development Sundays at 8:30Pm, and DS9 reruns at 1 pm all week on Spike. Also Star Gate SG1 Atlantis starts next week. This works wonderfully if you haven't seen all these episodes or not in a while at any rate. Enjoying Rosewell, better than I remembered it. Going to try a Farscape episode tomorrow during the day. Atlantis looks sort of intriguing, not a huge fan of SG1, but I like the previews for it's spin-off. Interesting scripted TV isn't dead - it's just hidden itself in bizarre timeslots, channels and re-runs.

Comments

[ponygirl2000.livejournal.com]

Thank you! I was starting to feel like I was reading a different story from everyone else. Herself had a comment on one of the chapters - I think it was the one with Buffy in the car - about how much she was loving Buffy at that moment, and all I could think was 'if you love this character at all why have you written her into such a position where the only thing she can do to move forward is completely repudiate her own nature' which of course Buffy promptly did in the next chapter.

I think you're very right when you say a lot of these fantasies are about guilt and the wish to surrender responsibility. I don't want to read too much into Herself's life since obviously I don't know her, but I do think there can be a tendency among women especially single women, to attack characters they see as rejecting love. Holding back, denying or not feeling love is seen as wrong or unnatural, maybe because we all long so much for it ourselves. I know I was feeling a bit of that anger towards Buffy when I first watched s6, and the heroine changing her nature in order to accept love is a well-worn plot in many genres.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I was starting to feel like I was reading a different story from everyone else.

Heh. You and me both.

Herself had a comment on one of the chapters - I think it was the one with Buffy in the car - about how much she was loving Buffy at that moment, and all I could think was 'if you love this character at all why have you written her into such a position where the only thing she can do to move forward is completely repudiate her own nature' which of course Buffy promptly did in the next chapter.

Exactly. I find it a bit easy and a short-cut on the author's part to make Buffy the bad guy here. Buffy is being unreasonable a la Joyce in Season 2 BTVS (as one respondent put it) but is she? Is this really the same situation? It would be more interesting to allow Jem to be in the wrong and possibly show the conduit that Angel has been blindly following may not be so nice? Maybe Angel's mission isn't a good one? But instead we fall into the cliche of the heroine being a nit and misunderstanding the situation, letting her fears rule her and her own self-interest come above others' truer purpose, the hero leaves fed up and she seeing him in pain see's the error of her ways and dashes after him to make everything better - how many times has Jane Austen written this scenario? Or the Bronte's? Elizabeth Bennett misunderstands Darcy and gets herself into trouble.


I think you're very right when you say a lot of these fantasies are about guilt and the wish to surrender responsibility. I don't want to read too much into Herself's life since obviously I don't know her, but I do think there can be a tendency among women especially single women, to attack characters they see as rejecting love.

I see it in a lot fanfic and romances. Also lots of postings. The viewer is identifying with the heroine, the viewer is single or even possibly in a bad marriage and wants love, here in their head there's this guy who adores the heroine, yet she dismisses him. How dare she! Remember the back-lash
in S7 when Buffy didn't immediately rescue Spike from the basement? How many people mentioned they'd be willing to adopt him, he could be with them?
We want the love, but we also want our independence.
It's weird.

In Herself's fic - the subtext behind the two romances being compared are disturbing, and not in a way I think she intends. Jem is the nice sidekick, the supporter in the Angel/Jem relationship. He leads, she follows. She provides him with info.
She's warm and supportive. And the majority of fans of the WIP love her dearly. Meanwhile, we have Buffy, who is the leader, who controls the council, who rules the relationship, while Spike is the support system, the nurturer, the one who follows her lead and provides information. Which relationship is portrayed as good and right and which is portrayed or viewed by the majority of fans as abusive? The one where the leader, the one in control is the female. Odd, considering in the series - Whedon went out of his way to make Buffy the hero - empowering others (granted haphazardly but he tried), and made Angel an anti-hero whose decisions weren't the best. Buffy stops the apocalyspe at the end of Chosen, Angel starts one at the end of Not Fade Away. Whedon, a man, in a sense, does the opposite of the female fanfic writers.

[ponygirl2000.livejournal.com]

I think you're hitting on exactly what is bugging me about the story, and why I do think there's misogyny at work - a term I usually don't like to trot out for plot points I don't like. All of the traits Buffy is accused of, in the text and most certainly in the comments - that she's selfish, unfeeling, hysterical, a Bad Mother, egotistical - are exactly the things women in power are accused of all the time. In contrast Jem could be described as stereotypically feminine, she's girlish, kind, loving, sexually inexperienced, and above all passive, gets rewarded to a greater extent than any other character in the fic. The message, especially coming from a woman, is disturbing. It's worthwhile obviously to explore these ideas in fiction, but the way they're being presented suggests that there are some negative attitudes that have been completely internalized.

This is fun! Like a book club!

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I think you're hitting on exactly what is bugging me about the story, and why I do think there's misogyny at work - a term I usually don't like to trot out for plot points I don't like.

Yes, it's been bugging me too. Misogyny is a weird thing. We think only men do it, but that's not true as I once attempted to explain on ATPO. We women I think are far worse, partly because this is not an easy world to be a woman in and I think many us wish
just for a moment we could be a man. So I can't help but wonder sometimes if in the fic we are reading - the author is fantasing about being the man in the fic and the female is what they'd want as a wife. Sort of like the female executive who can't wait to have the secretary and is often worse to her secretary than any man would have been.

The message, especially coming from a woman, is disturbing. It's worthwhile obviously to explore these ideas in fiction, but the way they're being presented suggests that there are some negative attitudes that have been completely internalized.

I think so too. I know that herself's fic is by no means the first or the last place I've seen it. In fact, the Romance genre in some literary circles has a bad rep for presenting these views. What's interesting though is not the views themselves but what lies behind them. Why do we find characters such as Jemima and Tara treated like paragones of virtue in Romance fiction, while characters like Willow and Buffy who are strong and take leadership roles are treated in such a negative way? And is the author or the fan base aware of the reasons behind it?

All of the traits Buffy is accused of, in the text and most certainly in the comments - that she's selfish, unfeeling, hysterical, a Bad Mother, egotistical - are exactly the things women in power are accused of all the time. In contrast Jem could be described as stereotypically feminine, she's girlish, kind, loving, sexually inexperienced, and above all passive, gets rewarded to a greater extent than any other character in the fic.

Remember the argument about LMPTM on ATPO? How upset several people were at the implication that Nikki may have been a bad mother? (Which I admit bothered me a bit, although I'm not sure the male writers intended us to see that. If anything the bad mother on BTVS was indicated to be Anne, who was sickly and
kept her son close to her bosum with no life outside of him.)

Note the two "female" characters who are treated as paragones or virtuous role models are the most passive and meek: Jemima and Tara. Tara who refuses to fight, who runs from situations, and who advises Jem to pursue her heart and enter a relationship with Angel (the kindly but misunderstood older man who has not had love for 50 years and deserves love now so isn't it fitting that he be rewarded by having this sweet girl who has come from an abusive marriage and never really knew a man's love). Willow meanwhile is shown as skeevy and creepy, controlling with her magic, and barely on the scene. Willow who has fought to save the world numerous times and has made a career for herself outside of domestic concerns. Same with Buffy - who is not domestic, doesn't love to cook, and is a career woman, a warrior. Buffy who is aggressive and not meek. She is scene as harsh and undeserving of love. While Jem, who loves to cook and loves to keep house, and
just sit with books, and is meek and quiet, is shown as virtuous and deserving.

Why? Why did Herself write it that way? But more importantly, why are so many of her readers responding the way they are? And why do romance novels written in a similar vien get gobbled up? It reminds me of some of the stories about the mother goddess - devourer and nurturer. I'm wondering if some of this may not be reaction to our own mothers or to the society that we grew up in and has changed over time, demanding things from us as women that frustrate us?

Agreed - it is fun!

[ponygirl2000.livejournal.com]

Why? Why did Herself write it that way? But more importantly, why are so many of her readers responding the way they are? And why do romance novels written in a similar vien get gobbled up?

Yes, I wonder that too. I'm sure that Herself and most of the commentors would probably characterize themselves as feminists or at least strongly deny any suggestion of misogyny in their behaviour. And in their day to day life I'm sure that's very true. I think that there is a disconnect between what we're supposed to want and what we actually desire. We may say we want strong role models but we may end up enjoying a story of a girl swooning into a strong man's arms far more. Part of fantasy's power is that it feels so separate from ordinary life that it allows for all sorts of projections.

The trouble with Herself's story is that I don't think she's aware of the fantasy she's fallen into - as a result the messages start to contradict each other, cliched situations are presented without any sort of twist to freshen them, in short the writing suffers for it.

I am hoping once the story's done - unless of course my view changes drastically - to send a few lengthy comments along the lines of what we've been discussing to Herself. I just don't want it to come across like I'm dumping all over her, because I was really enjoying the story for quite a while - it just seems like this flaw, which started out as a little thing, has grown until the flaw is the story now. In any case it's all been a fascinating process, both as a writer watching someone else's technique, and as an inside look into the development of a mini-fandom, complete with differing factions, viewer interaction, and debates over jumping the shark!

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

The trouble with Herself's story is that I don't think she's aware of the fantasy she's fallen into - as a result the messages start to contradict each other, cliched situations are presented without any sort of twist to freshen them, in short the writing suffers for it.

That's my sense as well. I get the oddest feeling this is purely unconscious. I'm not sure she intends it to come across this way nor am I sure that some of her readers are aware of it (or at least from the posts I've seen.) She may not know it's cliched. And it doesn't help that she read Anna Karenia during it - which was Tolstoy's attempt to write about a virtuous woman (domestic/faithful to her husband who gets sucked into an affair with a passionate man, until this man comes along she apparently has no life outside him), not a new story by any means - considering we get variations on it throughout the 18th and 19th centuries. Not to mention Hawthorn's Scarlette Letter. I can't help but wonder if the writer may not be attempting that sort of romance, without realizing the pitfalls and flaws of writing it?

I think that there is a disconnect between what we're supposed to want and what we actually desire. We may say we want strong role models but we may end up enjoying a story of a girl swooning into a strong man's arms far more.

I agree. I wonder if part of the problem is admitting or copping to it? Many feminists, particularly those who have been active in the movement or defensive about it (not saying Herself or her fans are) have a tendency to feel embarrassed about this fantasy, ashamed of it. It's their guilty little secret. Just as writing fanfic, specifically erotic fanfic might be. Rape fantasies fall within this as well - the strong misunderstood man, who is goregous, dominating you/seducing you - so it's not your fault, you didn't surrender. (As both Nancy Friday and Margaret Atwood have noted in essays). The guilt of fantasing about something you're told you aren't supposed to be fantasing about comes across in the subtext. After all, up until the last 30 years women were supposed to *not* want sex and female sexual fantasies were taboo. There's no shame in admitting to these fantasies, they don't reflect badly on us per se, but I can't help but wonder if that may be why she hasn't put the twist in? Her fic is WIP and she seems to be writing from gut-level, which means subconscious views may be playing role not to mention the outside influence of the comments and feedback - that has to have an effect. I know whenever I make the mistake of discussing something I'm writing - the reaction of person I'm discussing it with will often affect my ability to finish the work or write it. Stephen King stated once that you shouldn't discuss any work with someone until you finished the first draft - he may have a point.

I am hoping once the story's done - unless of course my view changes drastically - to send a few lengthy comments along the lines of what we've been discussing to Herself. I just don't want it to come across like I'm dumping all over her, because I was really enjoying the story for quite a while - it just seems like this flaw, which started out as a little thing, has grown until the flaw is the story now.

I feel much the same way. I love what she is doing with the character of Spike. And her characterization of Johnny was really fascinating.
I can't quite decide if this is a minor or major flaw - I did make her aware of it a while back, but backed off, because I saw that attempting to correct it hampered the writing. So like you, I am waiting to see what happens before commenting further.

In any case it's all been a fascinating process, both as a writer watching someone else's technique, and as an inside look into the development of a mini-fandom, complete with differing factions, viewer interaction, and debates over jumping the shark!

Oh yes. I look at it as a sort of mini-writer's workshop. But then livejournal is a bit of a writer's workshop/club in a way. As a writer - it has been incredibly educational - HERSELF's WIP exercise made me aware of things I'd done wrong in my own writing and how to correct them.

[sideshowsue2003.livejournal.com]

The trouble with Herself's story is that I don't think she's aware of the fantasy she's fallen into - as a result the messages start to contradict each other, cliched situations are presented without any sort of twist to freshen them, in short the writing suffers for it.

Just to let you know that I've been following these comments avidly. You and shadowkat have fleshed out a lot of the issues that I've been struggling with while reading the WIP. As I already mentioned to shadowkat, your comments are greatly appreciated. You've both successfully broken down some of the complex ideas that were only swimming around amorphously in my mind for quite some time.

I haven't been able to buy into the Angel/Jem romance because it's just that: a silly, passive, adolescent, Harlequinesque romance. Boring. And that's just the simple stuff.
As for Buffy, the character is locked in this maddeningly repetitive cycle of lashing out in the most horrendous ways without any forward movement or progression. We are currently at part 117 and Buffy is once again apologizing for being a selfish twig. Buffy will beat herself up for treating Spike like a domesticated wolf, but this doesn't necessarily mean she's grown or developed in any way. The text still reads as though Buffy doesn't deserve to be loved in general and by Spike in particular.

I found your comments about women's latent misogyny for women who overstep the traditional role of a passive and virtuous nurturer really helpful. Honestly, I'd never have made that analytical leap for precisely the reason you mentioned: that we would strongly deny any suggestion of misogyny in their behaviour. How can we hate either what we are or what we're supposed to be? But clearly, the text and the narrative are rewarding those who are passive and feminine. Buffy, and to a much lesser extent Willow, are taking a wallop. And I think you've really hit on something important.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

How can we hate either what we are or what we're supposed to be? But clearly, the text and the narrative are rewarding those who are passive and feminine. Buffy, and to a much lesser extent Willow, are taking a wallop.

I'm wondering the same thing. But maybe it's not so much that we hate what we are as we hate the roles we are forced into because of our gender. We envy the other genders roles. Society is weird about gender - from everything on clothes to jobs.

We hate that we have to be "super-women" or "tough" to get a job done, when we may want to be meek
and accomodating? Not sure, but I'm wondering if what I'm seeing in fanfic such as Herself's WIP and other romance novels isn't to some extent a reaction against that.

Also so many of us have yet to find a boyfriend, husband or mate and we desire it so desperately.
We wonder if there isn't something wrong with us.
Or our bodies. And we envy those we think have what we want - the Buffy Summers of the world. So it could be a reaction against that as well?

The text still reads as though Buffy doesn't deserve to be loved in general and by Spike in particular.

Is it the text or the comments? I remember responding to one commentator with a defense of Buffy. The commentator couldn't see why Spike would love Buffy - and this commentator, by the way, adored Jem/Angel. Buffy wasn't soft like Jem they thought. I remember attempting to explain that Spike loved Buffy because she was so strong, so able to take care of herself and others and saved the world countless times without asking for any reward. Her endurance. For some reason even to me this felt lacking, which is strange.

[ponygirl2000.livejournal.com]

Thanks so much! And I really appreciated your comments in the WIP, you and shadowkat make me feel like I'm not a total spaz in my reading of the text.

I don't know if this strong undercurrent in the story is entirely misogyny, I know here in Canada we have a long tradition of turning on public figures we feel have overstepped their place. It's that "who do you think you are" mentality, which is so limiting. In Herself's story Buffy has all the cards - she's the Slayer, she's eternally young, she has the husband who loves her beyond reason - one has to ask why she deserves all these things. However in setting Buffy so high and then tearing her down completely, Herself has pretty much unbalanced her whole story. If this is as it seems, all about Buffy realizing how selfish and wrong she's always been then it kind of negates a lot of what's happened - the Buffy/Spike dynamic, turns out Buffy's wrong therefore Spike is right; objections to Jem/Angel, again Buffy's wrong; even Johnny's problems, could then be inferred to arise from Buffy's wrong nature. It's disappointing because it seems to be a different story than what it promised to be, and the other, more complicated one, with all its shades of grey and blame I really liked.

See? This is why I can't comment on the actual WIP right now, because I'd end up dropping all this stuff on Herself like a bomb. She has real guts for putting up a first draft of a story as she's writing it - it's actually inspired me to loosen up this summer and do some writing without the outlines and structure I usually do - I just think she's hitting the problems of writing this way, all these things you never intended start appearing and the story starts to lose shape.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Having just read the last two chapters...I completely agree with what you've written above.

I know here in Canada we have a long tradition of turning on public figures we feel have overstepped their place

Heh. The knock-down tall poppies syndrom. They have it in Australia and England too. Not so much in the US. (Well, wait, yes we do. We rag on celebrities here as well.)

I think you may be right, it feels right now as if she's unbalanced the fic. 118 certainly felt that way to me. I found myself thinking, wait, this isn't Buffy...you've made her *too* self-absorbed here.

Yet, I refrained from commenting on it. Because like you state - I don't want to drop a huge bomb on her - the last time I did that, I instigated a writer's block. You need to write it out. See what happens. Then go back and kick the self-indulgent stuff or the things that don't work. Posting WIP's online is
a gutsy thing to do, especially one's you haven't betaed first. I give her credit for that.