This 'n That...

[shadowkat]

A huge thanks to everyone who responded to the late night pangs post. Your support is greatly appreciated. Also thanks for putting up with the whining - which only about thirty people get to witness, since I friend's lock all whining posts. A girl needs some privacy, you know. Granted posting on the internet can feel like shouting from a loud speaker at times, but with friend's lock and on livejournal, it feels a little more intimate.

Sorry haven't responded. Sort of in low-profile mode this week, after my emotional breakdown at the start of the week...feeling much better. Partly because I actually applied to six jobs this week so far. Partly because I was reminded today at a lovely lunch with two friends, (editor friend and S), that I'm not alone and there are others out there who have been struggling without a word for as long as I have. Job-hunting sucks. The only people who are any good at it are natural salesmen and enterprenurs who could probably make a living running their own business.

Oh that reminds me, fortune cookie at lunch today stated: "When Feeling Low, Try Contacting An Old Friend", I remember thinking, actually the new friends have been the most helpful lately - by new, the one's I've meet over the last two years through the wacky world of the internet. Course friendship is a transistory thing, people pass in and out of our lives periodically. It's up to us to take notice of them when they are in it.

Spending a quiet 4th of July weekend/Canada Day...all by my lonesome. Wales is off visiting family. CW visiting a friend and her mother. CJL at the ATPO board meet - lucky boy, beginning to feel envious of ATPO Board meet people - not for the BTVS/ATS stuff so much as the chocolat, cookies, and other sweets - oh and of course the actual face to face interaction.
Ah well. Que Sera Sera, as they say. Promise not to mope. Might actually try to write something creative for a change of pace. Started something tonight - spurned off of an idea I got watching a bad soap opera. See bad TV can give us good ideas.
Also might rent movies. Can't take self to Spiderman, promised CJL (okay he didn't actually receive my promise since stupid aol bounced my response, but hey, I wrote it and sent it), I'd see it when he gets back. The Trailer looks fantastic and it's gotten good reviews from my FL who I trust, well sort of trust.
Some of those people liked Van Helsing - so I am wary. There are other movies I wish to see - Bourne Supremacy (yes, Ludlum Spy-Espionage geek, sue me), and King Arthur (the people are so pretty and Guienvere actually seems to be a warrior here instead of a wimpering damsel). But one must be careful with finances especially since I need to buy new contacts and see the eye doctor next month.

At any rate, wishing those lurking out there or who are reading me on FL, a wonderful 4th of July Weekend.

PS: TV is getting more interesting - we have Roswell on at 4pm on Sci-Fi, Farscape on in the day, new Nip/Tuck episodes on at 10 pm on F/X, West Wing re-runs at 7pm on Bravo, Coupling on BBC America Sundays at 9pm, Arrested Development Sundays at 8:30Pm, and DS9 reruns at 1 pm all week on Spike. Also Star Gate SG1 Atlantis starts next week. This works wonderfully if you haven't seen all these episodes or not in a while at any rate. Enjoying Rosewell, better than I remembered it. Going to try a Farscape episode tomorrow during the day. Atlantis looks sort of intriguing, not a huge fan of SG1, but I like the previews for it's spin-off. Interesting scripted TV isn't dead - it's just hidden itself in bizarre timeslots, channels and re-runs.

Comments

[ponygirl2000.livejournal.com]

I'm not going to Chicago either, damn. This fiscally responsible stuff sucks. I am going to visit my parents next week which is cheap but not exactly a wild and crazy holiday.

I've just started watching Nip/Tuck and the parts I'm able to open my eyes for I'm quite enjoying. The characterizations are really interesting - it's nice to be surprised by television again.

Speaking of characters - what do you think of Herself's WIP of late? I find that I'm throwing up my hands in frustration with her writing of Buffy. I think I may just have to stop reading until she finally finishes which makes me a bit sad - I'm used to checking her LJ every day for updates.

Anyway. Hope you do have a lovely weekend, hopefully the summery weather will last.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I've just started watching Nip/Tuck and the parts I'm able to open my eyes for I'm quite enjoying. The characterizations are really interesting - it's nice to be surprised by television again.

LOL! Me too. This past week's episode had me watching through my fingers, cringing, and muttering at the screen - "okay, I understand why this moves the characters forward, but do we really have to watch him reset his nose onscreen?" But the characterizations of the regulars is fantastic and since we only have four of them - they can spend more time on them. I particularly love the friendship between the two men - Christian/Dylan Walsh character. Anti-hero/Hero - really cool.

Speaking of characters - what do you think of Herself's WIP of late? I find that I'm throwing up my hands in frustration with her writing of Buffy. I think I may just have to stop reading until she finally finishes which makes me a bit sad - I'm used to checking her LJ every day for updates.

Ahh...the WIP. I'm reading it solely for her characterization of Spike at the moment. He works for me.

The other characters? A little grating at times.

- Buffy is just a tad too self-involved (echoing perhaps the writer's own issues with the character? I'm not sure I bought her breakdown in the car completely - it seemed a tad forced. OTOH I completely agree with her feelings towards the Jem/Angel situation, which is a weird place to be in as a reader.)

My difficulty with WIP and why I'm not commenting on it - is well, I'm in the minority. You know you are having problems with a work of fiction when you are supporting the wrong characters or agreeing with the wrong ones. While I am having troubles with Buffy's attitude towards ensouledSpike (she's acting like she can't love him because he's not her tamed wolf-boy anymore? Shudder. So wait, does that mean she never really loved him to begin with and was just using him all along, if so what does that say about this character? And maybe Johnny took after his mother not his father? ), I completely agree with her attitude towards Jemimma and Angel and this baby, story twists that I'm struggling with as a reader. (Jem is painted as almost too good to be true and Buffy is painted as a little too whiny and self-centered here, which may be a problem - we almost need a bit more of Buffy in Jem and a bit more of Jem in Buffy, I think.) The Jem/Angel relationship, and the baby are all hackneyed romance cliches - what is fascinating about the WIP is herself almost seems to be aware of this and appears at times to be commenting on the cliche as she writes and corrects. So I'm hoping that the subtext will prove me wrong and we won't have Jem/Angel ride happily off into the sunset alongside Spike/Buffy and the new baby - because I think I already read that story one too many times in a romance novel somewhere in high school. Herself is a better writer than that - so I'm hoping she rises above the temptation. But I can't see how, she's written herself into a few corners with the J/A relationship - there's no darkness in Jem/Angel that I can see or potential for tragedy. J is too nice. Angel difficult to grasp hold of at all as a character. Buffy/Spike - well, you almost want him to leave her - she's so nasty to him and so self-involved. At the same time, you know he has no where to go. Which may be why I'm more enthralled with B/S - because it is prickier and less pat and I keep waiting for Buffy to redeem herself. J/A? Just pick up a Harelquin and you'll get the same romance - the characters are almost too flat here.

Ugh. See - that in a nutshell is why I'm staying quiet. LOL! Fanfic is frustrating.

[ponygirl2000.livejournal.com]

Re: Nip/Tuck

What's really funny is that last week I was having a conversation with my brother, who's an anethesiologist, and he told me that the one surgery that really grosses him out is rhinoplasty. And then this week Nip/Tuck has a do-it-yourself nose job! It cracked me up, and then I left the room 'cause I was queasy.

Fanfic is frustrating.

Heh. Isn't it though? The problem is Herself invites critical comments and has changed the story in response to suggestions, so there's this maddening sense that if I just pointed out the flaws she'd fix it to my satisfaction. Which is why I'm not commenting anymore. That, and if you feel like you're in the minority, I feel like the only one who isn't crying for Buffy's head on a platter.

I was really liking the angry/angsty push/pull of the B/S dynamic but now it seems like the plot hinges on Buffy realizing how nasty and selfish she's always been and begging for forgivenss (yet again!). There's that subtext of internalized misogyny that's rapidly becoming text in both the story and the comments and it's very off-putting.

It's funny, I think Herself said a while back that she didn't read romance novels, but even my limited reading recognizes that there are some heavy-duty cliches of the genre at work in J/A and S/B. I wonder if our culture just internalizes these things so much that they turn into archetypes.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

That, and if you feel like you're in the minority, I feel like the only one who isn't crying for Buffy's head on a platter.

Oh god. You and me both! I saw your response in that thread and thought, okay, it's just me and pony who are liking Buffy here. Damn.

I was really liking the angry/angsty push/pull of the B/S dynamic but now it seems like the plot hinges on Buffy realizing how nasty and selfish she's always been and begging for forgivenss (yet again!).

I was also enjoying the push-pull dynamics. I agree, didn't see her as being quite as selfish as the writer and fans did. The line that annoyed me the most was : "he was her wolf that would follow her and she missed that", shudder. Up until that line, I didn't see that in Buffy's behavior. Here she is in an impossible situation, her son lusted after her and died horribly, her daughter is in a sappy love affair with Angel which is *too* close to the sappy love affair she had with Angel when she was 17, and her lover/partner seems happy that she's pregnant because of a horrible ordeal and possibly manipulated into by some weird being? How is she wrong here? If I were Buffy, I'd be screaming my head off at these people. Ugh. Yet, the fans and herself seem to see Buffy as being wrong and the PTB, Jem, Angel, and Spike as being right?

There's that subtext of internalized misogyny that's rapidly becoming text in both the story and the comments and it's very off-putting.

Yes, I am catching this as well. It's actually, oddly enough, in quite a bit of romance novels - this odd subtext that women should bow down to the guy. Or have kids and be a mother, and if she doesn't want that, wants a career instead - she's bad...or
cannot be the warrior and woman at the same time?

Maybe some women, subsconsciously, feel guilt at not being the supporting mother/partner or feel a need to be dominated? The rape fantasies you often see in fanfic, which are off-putting - may be about that tension - between what society tells us we are supposed to be and what we want to be? The desire to be seduced, but to be seduced by a misunderstood nice guy. So we don't have to feel guilty for having that fiery affair (we can blame him)
yet still have the pleasure? Romance fiction is a weird genre - and most fanfic I've seen, oddly enough repeats so many of its odd and often off-puting subtexts.

It's funny, I think Herself said a while back that she didn't read romance novels, but even my limited reading recognizes that there are some heavy-duty cliches of the genre at work in J/A and S/B. I wonder if our culture just internalizes these things so much that they turn into archetypes.

I think our culture does. Because I certainly see the archetypes elsewhere. Daytime Soap Operas repeat them as do the prime time ones.
Whedon is playing with the archetype in the X-Men with Emma Frost/Scott Summers which is in a way the opposite of Buffy/Spike. In it we have the femme fatale and the male hero. Of course he plays with it a little differently.
Herself and many fanfic writers like to flip it - make the fatale more appealing than the hero, thinking they've avoided the archetype or romance cliche. And in a way they have circled around it - which is why I love the stories that flip it. So subversive. OTOH it's still there ....those cliches. And My God, for someone who claims to have never read romances she's stumbled into some major ones. (OTOH, people have an odd definition of what a romance is - if you have read the Bronte sisters, Mary Stewart, Jane Austen, Tolstoy's Anna Karenia, Lady Chatterly's Lover, then you have read romance. And heck, those cliches are rooted in the fairy tales we're told over and over again as children.)

[ponygirl2000.livejournal.com]

Thank you! I was starting to feel like I was reading a different story from everyone else. Herself had a comment on one of the chapters - I think it was the one with Buffy in the car - about how much she was loving Buffy at that moment, and all I could think was 'if you love this character at all why have you written her into such a position where the only thing she can do to move forward is completely repudiate her own nature' which of course Buffy promptly did in the next chapter.

I think you're very right when you say a lot of these fantasies are about guilt and the wish to surrender responsibility. I don't want to read too much into Herself's life since obviously I don't know her, but I do think there can be a tendency among women especially single women, to attack characters they see as rejecting love. Holding back, denying or not feeling love is seen as wrong or unnatural, maybe because we all long so much for it ourselves. I know I was feeling a bit of that anger towards Buffy when I first watched s6, and the heroine changing her nature in order to accept love is a well-worn plot in many genres.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I was starting to feel like I was reading a different story from everyone else.

Heh. You and me both.

Herself had a comment on one of the chapters - I think it was the one with Buffy in the car - about how much she was loving Buffy at that moment, and all I could think was 'if you love this character at all why have you written her into such a position where the only thing she can do to move forward is completely repudiate her own nature' which of course Buffy promptly did in the next chapter.

Exactly. I find it a bit easy and a short-cut on the author's part to make Buffy the bad guy here. Buffy is being unreasonable a la Joyce in Season 2 BTVS (as one respondent put it) but is she? Is this really the same situation? It would be more interesting to allow Jem to be in the wrong and possibly show the conduit that Angel has been blindly following may not be so nice? Maybe Angel's mission isn't a good one? But instead we fall into the cliche of the heroine being a nit and misunderstanding the situation, letting her fears rule her and her own self-interest come above others' truer purpose, the hero leaves fed up and she seeing him in pain see's the error of her ways and dashes after him to make everything better - how many times has Jane Austen written this scenario? Or the Bronte's? Elizabeth Bennett misunderstands Darcy and gets herself into trouble.


I think you're very right when you say a lot of these fantasies are about guilt and the wish to surrender responsibility. I don't want to read too much into Herself's life since obviously I don't know her, but I do think there can be a tendency among women especially single women, to attack characters they see as rejecting love.

I see it in a lot fanfic and romances. Also lots of postings. The viewer is identifying with the heroine, the viewer is single or even possibly in a bad marriage and wants love, here in their head there's this guy who adores the heroine, yet she dismisses him. How dare she! Remember the back-lash
in S7 when Buffy didn't immediately rescue Spike from the basement? How many people mentioned they'd be willing to adopt him, he could be with them?
We want the love, but we also want our independence.
It's weird.

In Herself's fic - the subtext behind the two romances being compared are disturbing, and not in a way I think she intends. Jem is the nice sidekick, the supporter in the Angel/Jem relationship. He leads, she follows. She provides him with info.
She's warm and supportive. And the majority of fans of the WIP love her dearly. Meanwhile, we have Buffy, who is the leader, who controls the council, who rules the relationship, while Spike is the support system, the nurturer, the one who follows her lead and provides information. Which relationship is portrayed as good and right and which is portrayed or viewed by the majority of fans as abusive? The one where the leader, the one in control is the female. Odd, considering in the series - Whedon went out of his way to make Buffy the hero - empowering others (granted haphazardly but he tried), and made Angel an anti-hero whose decisions weren't the best. Buffy stops the apocalyspe at the end of Chosen, Angel starts one at the end of Not Fade Away. Whedon, a man, in a sense, does the opposite of the female fanfic writers.

[ponygirl2000.livejournal.com]

I think you're hitting on exactly what is bugging me about the story, and why I do think there's misogyny at work - a term I usually don't like to trot out for plot points I don't like. All of the traits Buffy is accused of, in the text and most certainly in the comments - that she's selfish, unfeeling, hysterical, a Bad Mother, egotistical - are exactly the things women in power are accused of all the time. In contrast Jem could be described as stereotypically feminine, she's girlish, kind, loving, sexually inexperienced, and above all passive, gets rewarded to a greater extent than any other character in the fic. The message, especially coming from a woman, is disturbing. It's worthwhile obviously to explore these ideas in fiction, but the way they're being presented suggests that there are some negative attitudes that have been completely internalized.

This is fun! Like a book club!

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I think you're hitting on exactly what is bugging me about the story, and why I do think there's misogyny at work - a term I usually don't like to trot out for plot points I don't like.

Yes, it's been bugging me too. Misogyny is a weird thing. We think only men do it, but that's not true as I once attempted to explain on ATPO. We women I think are far worse, partly because this is not an easy world to be a woman in and I think many us wish
just for a moment we could be a man. So I can't help but wonder sometimes if in the fic we are reading - the author is fantasing about being the man in the fic and the female is what they'd want as a wife. Sort of like the female executive who can't wait to have the secretary and is often worse to her secretary than any man would have been.

The message, especially coming from a woman, is disturbing. It's worthwhile obviously to explore these ideas in fiction, but the way they're being presented suggests that there are some negative attitudes that have been completely internalized.

I think so too. I know that herself's fic is by no means the first or the last place I've seen it. In fact, the Romance genre in some literary circles has a bad rep for presenting these views. What's interesting though is not the views themselves but what lies behind them. Why do we find characters such as Jemima and Tara treated like paragones of virtue in Romance fiction, while characters like Willow and Buffy who are strong and take leadership roles are treated in such a negative way? And is the author or the fan base aware of the reasons behind it?

All of the traits Buffy is accused of, in the text and most certainly in the comments - that she's selfish, unfeeling, hysterical, a Bad Mother, egotistical - are exactly the things women in power are accused of all the time. In contrast Jem could be described as stereotypically feminine, she's girlish, kind, loving, sexually inexperienced, and above all passive, gets rewarded to a greater extent than any other character in the fic.

Remember the argument about LMPTM on ATPO? How upset several people were at the implication that Nikki may have been a bad mother? (Which I admit bothered me a bit, although I'm not sure the male writers intended us to see that. If anything the bad mother on BTVS was indicated to be Anne, who was sickly and
kept her son close to her bosum with no life outside of him.)

Note the two "female" characters who are treated as paragones or virtuous role models are the most passive and meek: Jemima and Tara. Tara who refuses to fight, who runs from situations, and who advises Jem to pursue her heart and enter a relationship with Angel (the kindly but misunderstood older man who has not had love for 50 years and deserves love now so isn't it fitting that he be rewarded by having this sweet girl who has come from an abusive marriage and never really knew a man's love). Willow meanwhile is shown as skeevy and creepy, controlling with her magic, and barely on the scene. Willow who has fought to save the world numerous times and has made a career for herself outside of domestic concerns. Same with Buffy - who is not domestic, doesn't love to cook, and is a career woman, a warrior. Buffy who is aggressive and not meek. She is scene as harsh and undeserving of love. While Jem, who loves to cook and loves to keep house, and
just sit with books, and is meek and quiet, is shown as virtuous and deserving.

Why? Why did Herself write it that way? But more importantly, why are so many of her readers responding the way they are? And why do romance novels written in a similar vien get gobbled up? It reminds me of some of the stories about the mother goddess - devourer and nurturer. I'm wondering if some of this may not be reaction to our own mothers or to the society that we grew up in and has changed over time, demanding things from us as women that frustrate us?

Agreed - it is fun!

[ponygirl2000.livejournal.com]

Why? Why did Herself write it that way? But more importantly, why are so many of her readers responding the way they are? And why do romance novels written in a similar vien get gobbled up?

Yes, I wonder that too. I'm sure that Herself and most of the commentors would probably characterize themselves as feminists or at least strongly deny any suggestion of misogyny in their behaviour. And in their day to day life I'm sure that's very true. I think that there is a disconnect between what we're supposed to want and what we actually desire. We may say we want strong role models but we may end up enjoying a story of a girl swooning into a strong man's arms far more. Part of fantasy's power is that it feels so separate from ordinary life that it allows for all sorts of projections.

The trouble with Herself's story is that I don't think she's aware of the fantasy she's fallen into - as a result the messages start to contradict each other, cliched situations are presented without any sort of twist to freshen them, in short the writing suffers for it.

I am hoping once the story's done - unless of course my view changes drastically - to send a few lengthy comments along the lines of what we've been discussing to Herself. I just don't want it to come across like I'm dumping all over her, because I was really enjoying the story for quite a while - it just seems like this flaw, which started out as a little thing, has grown until the flaw is the story now. In any case it's all been a fascinating process, both as a writer watching someone else's technique, and as an inside look into the development of a mini-fandom, complete with differing factions, viewer interaction, and debates over jumping the shark!

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

The trouble with Herself's story is that I don't think she's aware of the fantasy she's fallen into - as a result the messages start to contradict each other, cliched situations are presented without any sort of twist to freshen them, in short the writing suffers for it.

That's my sense as well. I get the oddest feeling this is purely unconscious. I'm not sure she intends it to come across this way nor am I sure that some of her readers are aware of it (or at least from the posts I've seen.) She may not know it's cliched. And it doesn't help that she read Anna Karenia during it - which was Tolstoy's attempt to write about a virtuous woman (domestic/faithful to her husband who gets sucked into an affair with a passionate man, until this man comes along she apparently has no life outside him), not a new story by any means - considering we get variations on it throughout the 18th and 19th centuries. Not to mention Hawthorn's Scarlette Letter. I can't help but wonder if the writer may not be attempting that sort of romance, without realizing the pitfalls and flaws of writing it?

I think that there is a disconnect between what we're supposed to want and what we actually desire. We may say we want strong role models but we may end up enjoying a story of a girl swooning into a strong man's arms far more.

I agree. I wonder if part of the problem is admitting or copping to it? Many feminists, particularly those who have been active in the movement or defensive about it (not saying Herself or her fans are) have a tendency to feel embarrassed about this fantasy, ashamed of it. It's their guilty little secret. Just as writing fanfic, specifically erotic fanfic might be. Rape fantasies fall within this as well - the strong misunderstood man, who is goregous, dominating you/seducing you - so it's not your fault, you didn't surrender. (As both Nancy Friday and Margaret Atwood have noted in essays). The guilt of fantasing about something you're told you aren't supposed to be fantasing about comes across in the subtext. After all, up until the last 30 years women were supposed to *not* want sex and female sexual fantasies were taboo. There's no shame in admitting to these fantasies, they don't reflect badly on us per se, but I can't help but wonder if that may be why she hasn't put the twist in? Her fic is WIP and she seems to be writing from gut-level, which means subconscious views may be playing role not to mention the outside influence of the comments and feedback - that has to have an effect. I know whenever I make the mistake of discussing something I'm writing - the reaction of person I'm discussing it with will often affect my ability to finish the work or write it. Stephen King stated once that you shouldn't discuss any work with someone until you finished the first draft - he may have a point.

I am hoping once the story's done - unless of course my view changes drastically - to send a few lengthy comments along the lines of what we've been discussing to Herself. I just don't want it to come across like I'm dumping all over her, because I was really enjoying the story for quite a while - it just seems like this flaw, which started out as a little thing, has grown until the flaw is the story now.

I feel much the same way. I love what she is doing with the character of Spike. And her characterization of Johnny was really fascinating.
I can't quite decide if this is a minor or major flaw - I did make her aware of it a while back, but backed off, because I saw that attempting to correct it hampered the writing. So like you, I am waiting to see what happens before commenting further.

In any case it's all been a fascinating process, both as a writer watching someone else's technique, and as an inside look into the development of a mini-fandom, complete with differing factions, viewer interaction, and debates over jumping the shark!

Oh yes. I look at it as a sort of mini-writer's workshop. But then livejournal is a bit of a writer's workshop/club in a way. As a writer - it has been incredibly educational - HERSELF's WIP exercise made me aware of things I'd done wrong in my own writing and how to correct them.

[sideshowsue2003.livejournal.com]

The trouble with Herself's story is that I don't think she's aware of the fantasy she's fallen into - as a result the messages start to contradict each other, cliched situations are presented without any sort of twist to freshen them, in short the writing suffers for it.

Just to let you know that I've been following these comments avidly. You and shadowkat have fleshed out a lot of the issues that I've been struggling with while reading the WIP. As I already mentioned to shadowkat, your comments are greatly appreciated. You've both successfully broken down some of the complex ideas that were only swimming around amorphously in my mind for quite some time.

I haven't been able to buy into the Angel/Jem romance because it's just that: a silly, passive, adolescent, Harlequinesque romance. Boring. And that's just the simple stuff.
As for Buffy, the character is locked in this maddeningly repetitive cycle of lashing out in the most horrendous ways without any forward movement or progression. We are currently at part 117 and Buffy is once again apologizing for being a selfish twig. Buffy will beat herself up for treating Spike like a domesticated wolf, but this doesn't necessarily mean she's grown or developed in any way. The text still reads as though Buffy doesn't deserve to be loved in general and by Spike in particular.

I found your comments about women's latent misogyny for women who overstep the traditional role of a passive and virtuous nurturer really helpful. Honestly, I'd never have made that analytical leap for precisely the reason you mentioned: that we would strongly deny any suggestion of misogyny in their behaviour. How can we hate either what we are or what we're supposed to be? But clearly, the text and the narrative are rewarding those who are passive and feminine. Buffy, and to a much lesser extent Willow, are taking a wallop. And I think you've really hit on something important.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

How can we hate either what we are or what we're supposed to be? But clearly, the text and the narrative are rewarding those who are passive and feminine. Buffy, and to a much lesser extent Willow, are taking a wallop.

I'm wondering the same thing. But maybe it's not so much that we hate what we are as we hate the roles we are forced into because of our gender. We envy the other genders roles. Society is weird about gender - from everything on clothes to jobs.

We hate that we have to be "super-women" or "tough" to get a job done, when we may want to be meek
and accomodating? Not sure, but I'm wondering if what I'm seeing in fanfic such as Herself's WIP and other romance novels isn't to some extent a reaction against that.

Also so many of us have yet to find a boyfriend, husband or mate and we desire it so desperately.
We wonder if there isn't something wrong with us.
Or our bodies. And we envy those we think have what we want - the Buffy Summers of the world. So it could be a reaction against that as well?

The text still reads as though Buffy doesn't deserve to be loved in general and by Spike in particular.

Is it the text or the comments? I remember responding to one commentator with a defense of Buffy. The commentator couldn't see why Spike would love Buffy - and this commentator, by the way, adored Jem/Angel. Buffy wasn't soft like Jem they thought. I remember attempting to explain that Spike loved Buffy because she was so strong, so able to take care of herself and others and saved the world countless times without asking for any reward. Her endurance. For some reason even to me this felt lacking, which is strange.

[ponygirl2000.livejournal.com]

Thanks so much! And I really appreciated your comments in the WIP, you and shadowkat make me feel like I'm not a total spaz in my reading of the text.

I don't know if this strong undercurrent in the story is entirely misogyny, I know here in Canada we have a long tradition of turning on public figures we feel have overstepped their place. It's that "who do you think you are" mentality, which is so limiting. In Herself's story Buffy has all the cards - she's the Slayer, she's eternally young, she has the husband who loves her beyond reason - one has to ask why she deserves all these things. However in setting Buffy so high and then tearing her down completely, Herself has pretty much unbalanced her whole story. If this is as it seems, all about Buffy realizing how selfish and wrong she's always been then it kind of negates a lot of what's happened - the Buffy/Spike dynamic, turns out Buffy's wrong therefore Spike is right; objections to Jem/Angel, again Buffy's wrong; even Johnny's problems, could then be inferred to arise from Buffy's wrong nature. It's disappointing because it seems to be a different story than what it promised to be, and the other, more complicated one, with all its shades of grey and blame I really liked.

See? This is why I can't comment on the actual WIP right now, because I'd end up dropping all this stuff on Herself like a bomb. She has real guts for putting up a first draft of a story as she's writing it - it's actually inspired me to loosen up this summer and do some writing without the outlines and structure I usually do - I just think she's hitting the problems of writing this way, all these things you never intended start appearing and the story starts to lose shape.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Having just read the last two chapters...I completely agree with what you've written above.

I know here in Canada we have a long tradition of turning on public figures we feel have overstepped their place

Heh. The knock-down tall poppies syndrom. They have it in Australia and England too. Not so much in the US. (Well, wait, yes we do. We rag on celebrities here as well.)

I think you may be right, it feels right now as if she's unbalanced the fic. 118 certainly felt that way to me. I found myself thinking, wait, this isn't Buffy...you've made her *too* self-absorbed here.

Yet, I refrained from commenting on it. Because like you state - I don't want to drop a huge bomb on her - the last time I did that, I instigated a writer's block. You need to write it out. See what happens. Then go back and kick the self-indulgent stuff or the things that don't work. Posting WIP's online is
a gutsy thing to do, especially one's you haven't betaed first. I give her credit for that.

[petzipellepingo.livejournal.com]

Yes, being unemployed is very soul-sucking. My sister has been out of work for a year and a half, her COBRA has run out and she's depleting her bank account. Every day she checks the newspapers and the internet, faxes and e mails resumes and cover letters but rarely gets a call from the employers. When she does go on an interview she's all excited but I've learned not to say much because after they don't call back she's terribly depressed. She told me recently she's had thoughts about suicide. I find myself things of things for us to do just so she doesn't sit home and brood. Wishing you all the best in your job search.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Thank you.

My sister has been out of work for a year and a half, her COBRA has run out and she's depleting her bank account. Every day she checks the newspapers and the internet, faxes and e mails resumes and cover letters but rarely gets a call from the employers. When she does go on an interview she's all excited but I've learned not to say much because after they don't call back she's terribly depressed. She told me recently she's had thoughts about suicide. I find myself things of things for us to do just so she doesn't sit home and brood.

Oh god. That is a perfect description of my situation as well. Cobra run out - check. Depleted my funds - check. Hunting through papers, emails, jobsites, friend recommendations, network, - check. Getting geared up for an interview - working your ass off for it - not getting it, check. Considering suicide as a way out - check.

The problem is you feel a bit like a rat in a maze, you keep hunting ways out and hit barriers. Meanwhile you hear tales of other rats who have found part-time jobs, working temp, and doing freelance or have found a job they love. You wonder - what the heck is wrong with you that you can't get this. Or is it where you are living? Then you wonder, would everyone be better off if you weren't here, including you? Of course not. But they say dogs in traps are known to eat their own paws to get out.

The problem is - after 9/11, and the economy crashed, employers decided that they could use one employee for three jobs. They call this increased productivity. The President and US Govt. hoping to help businesses thrive created legislation that permitted employers to outsource work overseas - so you can have a customer service center for a US based company and US based customers in India. US jobs started going to other countries. The Telemarketing jobs I could get in the 1990s now are done outside my country. As a result you have over 300 resumes sent for every job announcement. The employers can pick who they choose, pay whatever they want and provide a low benefits package. Ugh. If you have a job feel lucky. This is probably the worst time since the Great Depression to be unemployed.

[sideshowsue2003.livejournal.com]

I'd like to apologize first for just dropping in like this. But the comments that you and ponygirl have left regarding herself's WIP are wonderful. I'm completely hopeless at analytical commentary and your comments have helped me to grasp better what has felt a bit off to me recently in the WIP. The Jem/Angel relationship has driven me nuts from the start for exactly the qualities that have been brought up--the overly pat and Harlequinesque elements to a romance that is quite frankly, too good to be true. And in some ways, Jem has been written from the beginning as some kind of supernatural saint awaiting benediction from some higher being, so maybe this is her payoff or something.

I've often felt that Buffy's been hard done by most people, and the recent installments have only reinforced my position that the girl is most often left with nothing but apologies for her horrid behaviour. And the harder she's bashed, the more the readers love the work. I was disappointed by the manner in which Buffy was humbled into her apology. As Buffy was the one violated (I don't really like this word), I was uncomfortable with her turning into the violator. But I'll leave it at that, because analytical commentary--not my strong point.

Anyway, thanks for the comments you and ponygirl shared. They are very much appreciated.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Thank you for your response and kind words.

Yes, I think what pony and I are getting at is why the supernatural saint bit with Jem is bugging us so much - part of it is the cliche as you note regarding Harlequin romances (which oddly enough the writer claims to haven't read, and that makes it even more interesting), part of it is that the cliche exists at all. Why is it that women who are portrayed as meek, kind, nurturing, supportive followers/sidekicks, and assist the heroic male come out as Saints? What's fascinating is Joss Whedon did not like this cliche and went over-board in attempt to subvert it with Cordelia. She becomes saint like in ATS Season 2-3, sacrificing herself, becoming his sidekick, doing the visions, realizing he'll always love someone else or if he does love her they can't be together, is a mother to his son - in a way S3 Cordy (after Birthday) is everything Herself's Jemima is. She even rises to heaven. But Whedon brings her back evil, corrupted or hijacked by whatever power took her over and she is for a while the big bad. When she leaves...she does it not so much as side-kick but as quippy warrior. It's a mild attempt, granted, but one Whedon makes all the same to subvert that "girl sidekick saint" cliche.

Ahhh...Buffy. Like Xena before her, Buffy gets a bad rap. I actually like Buffy in Herself's fic. What is troubling to me is that I don't think the writer or her fans like her and feel the need to punish her or treat her as wrong for responses that actually seem quite valid.

[sideshowsue2003.livejournal.com]

What is troubling to me is that I don't think the writer or her fans like her and feel the need to punish her or treat her as wrong for responses that actually seem quite valid.

This is exactly where I am right now. Right from the beginning, when Herself introduced Buffy's affair, I was immediately struck by how vehemently people reacted to this. Of course, adultery is considered reprehensible by society, but my reaction was one big, "So what? BFD." The poor girl has been on the front lines, battling for humanity for decades, died twice and married a vampire and we're now supposed to pass moral judgments on someone who is clearly outside the limits of standard conduct? Come on. Not to go too Zarathushtra on this, but for me, Buffy is beyond traditionally accepted morality.

I couldn't figure out how on the one hand, the Angel/Spike fling could easily be swept away with the explanation that it was something 'outside our understanding' and therefore excusable, but Buffy's indiscretions were blameworthy in the extreme. At one point, I was quite distressed that the readers' responses were hypocritical. That is to say, if it were Spike who had stepped out on Buffy, and he had jumped through as many hoops as she in order to patch up the relationship, the readership would have still bashed Buffy for being a bitch and not taking him back immediately. I couldn't wrap my head around that, and I still can't.

It's also interesting to note how the number of comments swells according to how scandalously Buffy behaves. The episode in which Buffy strikes (or nearly strikes depending on the revision) Tara is a prime example. Likewise, the installment in the car saw a significant rise in comments just because Buffy lashed out and said some awful things to Spike. Strangely, some people who I thought had bailed on the story based on the re-writes of the Tara episode (because in the end, Buffy didn't actually hit her and there wasn't ample justification to bash Buffy to hell) reappeared. It makes me wonder why people enjoy punishing Buffy for responses, as you wrote, that are actually not all that wrong. I posted something to that effect recently as a comment, but I almost immediately deleted it from Herself's journal when a Buffy basher came out in force. Cue up obscene hand gestures and ensuing wanking--I didn't want to go there, so I got rid of it.

I've gone off topic from where you and pony have gone, namely why is Buffy being punished for being a strong, independent woman and what this says about the latent misogyny in women and the internalized fantasy of being the virtuous wife and partner. I don't know what I can add to this. But clearly, the passive, feminine characters are rewarded while their opposites are punished for their transgressions of the norm or accepted stereotype.

Christ, to echo pony here, this is fun! I appreciate being able to discuss this in some small way. Thanks again.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I've gone off topic from where you and pony have gone, namely why is Buffy being punished for being a strong, independent woman and what this says about the latent misogyny in women and the internalized fantasy of being the virtuous wife and partner. I don't know what I can add to this.

On the contrary you are making some excellent points and it's nice to know we aren't alone.

The episode in which Buffy strikes (or nearly strikes depending on the revision) Tara is a prime example. Likewise, the installment in the car saw a significant rise in comments just because Buffy lashed out and said some awful things to Spike. Strangely, some people who I thought had bailed on the story based on the re-writes of the Tara episode (because in the end, Buffy didn't actually hit her and there wasn't ample justification to bash Buffy to hell) reappeared.

Ahhh the Tara scene. I completely agree.

There's an essay on whedonesque right now about the fan backlash against SMG and Buffy in S7 by many fans. And having read it - she makes some very good points. Fans wanted something from the Spike/Buffy or even Buffy/Angel romance that ME chose not to give them. What's interesting to me, is the choice ME made in some ways is far more empowering to women than the choice many female fans desired. The fans wanted Buffy to chose one of her vampire lovers, ride off into the sunset with him and be equal partners. ME chose to have Buffy share her power with women around the world (granted a select group but that's another issue), and be free to live her life as she chose as a *single* powerful sexual
successful woman.

I also agree with your comments on the adultery. It really isn't that big a deal. It was a fling. She's been with a vampire for 30 years, hasn't aged, and she got involved briefly with someone else. It happens. I can't help but wonder if some of the backlash might be again - due to how people feel about their own lives and husbands. Meanwhile
we have the Spike/Angel fling which like you stated is swept under the carpet as vampire stuff. This bothered me. Buffy should be more bothered by this as should Jemmima. In fact, I would think it would be far more disturbing to sleep with your father's male lover, a week after your father slept with him, then it would be to hear about your mother's fling last summer with some guy. Or at least it would be more disturbing to the fans? But the one - Buffy having the affair is far more real to people - that happens in *real* life, in fact it may have happened to them. But to have your husband sleep with his mentor then your daughter sleep with the mentor, who was your ex-boyfriend in high school? That's a fantasy. Slash fiction written by women- where two men have erotic sex is female fantasy. Women get off on it. Since it is fantasy, and the majority of us have never experienced loving a guy who slept with another guy in real life - you don't get the backlash. It doesn't push the same button. And when you come right down to it - that's what art is about pushing our emotional buttons.