shadowkat | Day #12 of the 30 Day Television Challenge

Day 12 of 30 Day Television Challenge

The prompt: Character that you initially found annoying but you grew to love

This is not as easy as it looks..

I'm going with...

Wes in Angel. (Note - it was in Angel that I initially found Wes annoying and grew to love the character. Actually I think Wes was possibly the best developed character on Angel.).

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From:

cjlasky7

In Praise of Ferret Face:
Frank Burns, played by Larry Linville (M*A*S*H)

This is not so much a love letter to a character, but a sigh of regret that he never reached his full potential. Frank Burns, through his five seasons on M*A*S*H, was a one-dimensional foil to Hawkeye Pierce--a bungling fool, substandard surgeon and a moral hypocrite who was an easy target for Alan Alda's anti-authoritarian broadside.

But in rare, fascinating moments, Frank's backstory peeked through his weaselly facade, and a real human being threatened to emerge. In Season 3's "There Is Nothing Like a Nurse," we saw home movies of Frank's life in Fort Wayne--the wife he married for money, in exchange for his happiness and his freedom. For the first time, we understood that his time in Korea, with Margaret Houlihan, really was the best time he'd had in years.

Of course, once Margaret broke free, he fell apart. In Season 5, Frank Burns was suddenly the underdog, and even Hawkeye couldn't kick him when he was down. It could have been the start of a new direction for Frank--no, he could never be a better person, that wasn't his role on the series. But maybe we could have seen Frank struggle to understand why he made those choices and what he might have done differently. He could still be a miserable chickenshit... but a relatable chickenshit.

Unfortunately, the writers and producers weren't willing to change direction for Frank, and Linville left after his five-year contract expired. I don't regret getting to know David Ogden Stiers as Charles Emerson Winchester, but I'll always wonder what might have been.

Goodbye, Ferret Face.

From:

shadowkat

I'll give them credit for doing a better job with him than in the movie. Television though provides that. By the end - I thought Frank Burns was a good depiction of what war does to people - and MASH kind of comments on it. That Frank in of himself and in his average life, wasn't necessarily a bad person so much as typical of his upbringing. And he'd have probably been fine. But the war kind of challenged him. He was in many ways stuck because of the choices he made. But they were no better or worse than most.

Also, we're seeing Frank through Hawkeye's perspective, and Hawkeye is kind of an anti-hero, if you think about it. And a bully. The brilliance of MASH was the characters were all deeply and tragically flawed, and the WAR and the nonsensical nature of WAR often brought out the best and the worst in all of them. Burns was often a foil to Hawkeye.

From:

cactuswatcher

I couldn't think of a thing for this topic. Maybe 'love' was too strong a word. But talking about MASH, I at least got to the point I respected Margaret, especially after her divorce.

From:

shadowkat

I had to work at it - and could only come up with the characters in Angel - actually all of them fit that category, except for possibly Angel, Gunn, Darla, Lilah, and Doyle. I had to choose.

On MASH? I'd agree Margaret - got better after the divorce. And after Frank left. They began to develop her more. It could be a time period thing - as the women's movement took off - female roles on television changed. And MASH and other shows began to develop female characters better - they weren't just eye candy or supporting players to the guys. Thinking back - I remember it beginning to change sometime around the late 1970s early 80s. There was a kind of slow movement in that direction around 1977.

From:

cactuswatcher

She certainly got to be a far cry from movie Hot Lips!

From:

cjlasky7

You could tell that a change was in the air with s7's "Inga." This showdown between Hawkeye and Margaret was Loretta Swit's best moment in the series (IMO):

MARGARET: You'll work with them a lot better when you start treating them like people.

HAWKEYE: Don't hand me that baloney. You're not standing up for her as a woman, you're really jealous of her, aren't you?

M: Jealous of her?

H: Olive green.

M: Over you? Don't be an ass! You think everything revolves around you and your spectacular body, don't you?

H: You're raving.

M: You think a woman is dead until she lives for you. Well, let me tell you something, Benjamin Franklin, we actually survive without you. We live, we breathe, we dream, we do our work, we earn our pay, sometimes we even have our little failures, and then we pull ourselves together all without benefit of your fabulous electric lips! And let me tell you something else, buster. I can walk into that kitchen anytime I want, and replace those fabulous lips of yours with a soggy piece of liver!

Alda wrote that one himself, one of the rare times Margaret really got one over on Hawkeye. ...

Edited Date: 2020-10-09 04:25 am (UTC)

From:

atpo_onm

Starting to wonder-- do you have a photographic memory? Or are you just some kind of search engine demon? For example, I watched all of M*A*S*H, every season, and only remember bits and pieces here and there. Granted, age is catching up with me in recent times as to memory of anything, but still...

This isn't the first time I've seen you do this at these various TV/music/movie memes.

Huh.

From:

cjlasky7

It's a combination of half-decent memory, passable search engine skills, and slick presentation.

I remembered watching Frank's home movies from Indiana, so I searched for "Frank Burns home movies" on the internet, and found the episode.

I remembered Margaret's big speech was from Mariette Hartley's episode, and the entire Hawkeye/Hot Lips argument was waiting for me on the internet. (Simple cut and paste.)

As Ted Baxter once said: "You know what's great about this country? You don't have to be witty or clever, as long as you can hire someone who is."

[Quote verified by internet search]

From:

shadowkat

Meanwhile - I watched all the episodes multiple times and wrote a paper, transcribing various speeches from episodes re-winded to get it right in the 1980s, when I was writing a paper on it. And I can't remember Frank's home movies or the speech or that Mariette Hartley was even in it.

I just remember it generally.

ETA: Do you have a photographic memory or are just some kind of search engine demon? LOL! Going with search engine demon, cjl.

Edited Date: 2020-10-09 12:48 pm (UTC)

From:

shadowkat

The show changed a bit - when Alda starting writing for it, and it was less Gelbert's baby. The early episodes are kind of similar to the movie - absurdist war comedy, with little to no true character development, and women objectified. It's funny absurdist war comedy - I mean there's an episode in there with a helicopter carrying off something like a piano (can't remember what it was) that was pure comedy. The Movie is an absurdist war comedy based on a series of books about MASH units in the Korean War. (I know this because I found and read one of the books - they aren't memorable.)

But as you move past S3...it begins to change. As do the supporting characters. Radar starts to grow up and change, Henry Blake is killed, Frank leaves, as does Trapper John, and the comedy moves from absurdist physical comedy to a dryer more biting commentary on the WAR. We move from physical comedy on Frank, to Winchester's biting wit. Blake's flakiness, to Potter's snark. And Hawkeye's remarks to Houlihan - become increasingly exposed as sexist and borderline misogynistic.

Alda and Gelbert, once freed from having to repeat the movie or follow the books, which had been forgotten by the fourth or fifth season were able to be a bit more experimental and do more.

From:

cjlasky7

The counter argument:

As the series progressed and Gelbart gave way to Alda as the creative engine, M*A*S*H became less about Hawkeye and Trapper (or B.J.) against the lunatics running the army and more about the entire cast against "The War."

With Frank gone and cartoonish antagonists like Flagg phased out, the anti-war viewpoint of Hawkeye wasn't the rebel stance, it was the default. Even the regular army personnel like Houlihan and Potter didn't put up many arguments on behalf of their chosen careers.

That drained a lot of the conflict out of the series, to its detriment. Alda and the other writers were good enough to successfully focus on developing the cast of characters (I especially liked the Mulcahy episodes, for some reason!), and he continued Gelbart's experimentation with the format ("Dreams" is fantastic).

But I still think an essential part of the series' DNA was lost when Alda took over.

From:

shadowkat

I honestly don't remember the show well enough to debate it with you. I haven't watched or seen an episode of it since 1987.

From:

atpo_onm

Sgt. Renko on Hill St. Blues, the show that forever changed the way TV police shows were done.

Famous clip from the pilot:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EeJEEAtZH_I

Loudmouthed, arrogant... annoying is putting it mildly when Andy Renko first appears. But over the seasons, you get to understand his history and the insecurities that helped form his public personality, especially his difficulty in relating to women who initially find him interesting because of his profession, and then quickly get bored when they discover just how ordinary he really is.

Years back, I even coined the term "The Renko Syndrome" for men who are constantly disappointed by being constantly romantically drawn to women who are far smarter and/or more talented then they are. Women who then, understandably, in the best of cases, leave with that "let's just be friends, okay?" In the less best cases? Oh, dear...

Fortunately for the character, that did work out eventually, when he was able to find a decent, caring woman who got him to accept himself for the decent, caring person he was rather than trying to "marry up" intellectually and socially.

Great work always from Charles Haid, in a very tricky role.

From:

shadowkat

I loved Charles Haid's Renko - such a well-developed character. I don't remember his dating stuff. I remember more his partnership with the other cops.

A good choice. Hill Street did set the gold standard on how to do a cop show. Because of Hill Street, we got others like Homicide Life on the Streets. It also set a new standard on work-place dramas - which often fell too solidly into mystery of the week format or soap opera. St. Elsewhere, NYPD Blue, The Wire, etc.