#IStandWithRay Fisher & Charisma Carpenter..Movement (List of all the supporters to date)

[shadowkat]

Last night I rewatched the Disney flick "Newsies" from the early 1990s. The overarching theme was pretty much the same as Buffy - together we can take down the bullies. It takes one voice to speak out, but if many join, that voice won't be silenced and then things can finally change.

Ray Fisher. I don't know if you know about Justice League reshoot with Whedon that occured in 2017? Anyone who followed the film and was interested in it - does. I do for two reasons, 1) I find it fascinating, 2) I was into the films and had seen most of the prior ones. I have a weakness for superhero films, actually I have a weakness for all superhero stories - I find them comforting in this crazy ass world we live in.

Anyhow what came out about Justice League during those re-shoots was bad enough to tank the movie at the box office and kill plans for another one. (Although to be fair, I thought the movie was mediocre at best - I have a review of it somewhere in my journal.)

Ray Fisher's allegations are explained HERE. Fisher has been fighting to be heard since roughly 2017. He's the reason Charisma Carpenter got the courage to speak out - she did it in support of his allegations not for herself.

To date...the following have posted their support of Charisma Carpenter and Ray Fisher's statements.

Charisma - Lists all the people who have tweeted or instagrammed their support of Charisma

Below the cut is all the tweets and posts I could find supporting Charisma from cast, crew, tie-in novelists, writers, etc...

[ETA1 - 2-15-21: added Amy Acker's post in support. She didn't experience anything but is supportive. Also added link to the Pruitt's complaints a few weeks back. ETA2 - 2-16-21: Nick Brendan made a statement via his FB page, poor guy was in the hospital waiting for Spinal Surgery and trying to a GoFundMe to help pay for it. Meanwhile fans are bugging him about something that happened over 20 years ago. SMH. ETA- 2-17-21 : Added Stephen Deknight - who had a post similar to Acker's he didn't know about it. He wouldn't have - he was working on Buffy at the time and did a couple of Angel episodes. And it was behind closed doors. I doubt anyone told him. But he loves the actress and the others, and supports them.]



1. Amber Benson

Amber Benson amber_benson
Buffy was a toxic environment and it starts at the top. allcharisma
is speaking truth and I support her 100%. There was a lot of damage done during that time and many of us are still processing it twenty plus years later. #IStandWithRayFisher #IStandWithCharismaCarpenter

2. Sarah Michelle Gellar posted in response to Amber and Charisma to Instagram

3. Michelle Trachenberg posted in response to Sarah's Instagram

4. Anthony Stewart Head - States he's gutted by the allegations.

5. Emma Caulfield posted in response to Sarah's and quoted Sarah's Instagram

6. James Marsters

James Marsters@JamesMarstersOf
While I will always be honored to have played the character of Spike, the Buffy set was not without challenges. I do not support abuse of any kind, and am heartbroken to learn of the experiences of some of the cast. I send my love and support to all involved.

7. Marti Noxon (co-show-runner of Buffy)

NOX NOX WHO’S WEARING A MASK?
martinoxon
I would like to validate what the women of Buffy are saying
and support them in telling their story. They deserve to be heard.

I understand where allcharisma
, Amber, Michelle and all
the women who have spoken out are coming from.

Kater Gordon and I 1/2

[Recently Marti supported Kater Gordon's allegations against Matthew Weiner creator of Mad Men, Marti had also been dubbed "Suicide Girl" by the writers at Buffy.]

8. Jose Molina [Firefly writer - wrote two episodes of the short lived series, also wrote for Agent Carter,

Jose Molina josemolinatv
"Casually cruel" is a perfect way of describing Joss. He thought being mean was funny. Making female writers cry during a notes session was especially hysterical. He actually liked to boast about the time he made one writer cry twice in one meeting. #IStandWithCharismaCarpenter

9. Adam Busch

adam busch@adambusch

I support Charisma, Sarah, Amber & Michelle. I admire their courage and leadership. The truth is powerful and it prevails.

10. Julie Benze

Julie Benz@juliebenz
My heart goes out to all victims of abuse. Sending love to my fellow Buffy and Angel survivors. I stand with you and support you.
Heart suit

11. David Boreanze in direct response to Charisma's tweet:

David Boreanaz david_boreanaz
·
Replying to allcharisma
I am here for you to listen and support you. Proud of your strength
Heart suit Folded hands

ETA: "Charisma's response:

charisma carpenter
allcharisma - david_boreanaz
I know you’re there for me, David. I appreciate all you’ve done to demonstrate that support privately as well. Especially since Wednesday. -Thank you so much.
Heart suit

[Note - my guess is they are talking to each other and determining what message they should put out there.]

12. Tom Lenk

Tom Lenk tomlenk
So as not to center myself in the narrative, I thought it was important to leave space for the women and series regulars of BTVS to speak. But while I am here listening, I wanted to take a moment to send my love and support to the women of Buffy.

13. Mere Smith - who liked and retweeted Charisma's posts. (She was a breakdown script writer on Angel) - I can't find it.

14. J. August Richards.

J. August Richards
jaugustrichards - Sending you my love, allcharisma
. I know the feelings of vulnerability and fear that come with speaking your truth. As I said to you yesterday, I am here for you, however you need me.
Folded hands
Red heart

15. Danny Strong (Jonathan)

Danny Strong dannystrong
Sending love and support to allcharisma
amber_benson
realmichellet
sarahmgellar
and all who have gone public about their toxic experiences on buffytvs
. I truly admire your bravery in speaking out.

16. Clare Krammer (Glory on Buffy)

Clare Kramer clarekramer
For what it’s worth, I believe and stand with allcharisma
, ray8fisher
, amber_benson
and others who have the strength to come forward with their truth. A lot of this industry needs a reset.....

17. Eliza Dusku - posted on Instagram in direct response to Charisma's Instagram post

"“[Charisma Carpenter], my heart aches for you & I’m so sorry you have held this for so long. Your post was powerful, painful and painted a picture we’ll collectively never un-see or un-know. Thank you. I hadn’t known it and I won’t forget it,” Dushku wrote on Instagram. “May you and countless others feel the solidarity and connections you have likely missed for too long. From courage, come change and hope. It starts and will end because of courageous truth-tellers like you. I admire, respect and love you.”

18. James C. Leary [Clem]

James C. Leary- thejamesleary

I am amazed at the bravery of those who speak out against toxicity and abuse. While I never experienced it first hand I had heard stories for YEARS from many people who did. I am sorry it took so long for the truth to finally come out. #IStandWithCharismaCarpenter

19. Jeff Marriott - Buffy/Angel novel tie-in writer - who personally knows Whedon and the people involved - he posted on FB

Jeff Mariotte
I've written some Buffy novels, and more Angel novels than any other writer. I co-wrote the second official BtVS episode guide, and the first Angel one. When I was editor-in-chief at IDW Publishing, I brought the Angel license to IDW, then left my job and wrote the first several comics. That was made more difficult by Joss's indecision about what he wanted to do with the character (this was just post-series finale). Joss's disparaging comments about tie-in novels based on his shows was disheartening, too. I know Joss. I don't like him, but I know him.

I've also spent time with many of the cast members of those shows, and consider some of them good friends. They're an incredibly talented bunch, and they made those shows work. Writing those books and comics, and being part of that community, was an important stage in my life and career.
I absolutely believe everything Charisma Carpenter says in the tweets shown here. It fits with everything I've seen and heard about Joss over the years. He pretends to be a feminist, and he can pull off the pretense for a while. But when the spotlight's off, the truth emerges.
The casts and crews of those shows were total professionals, performing near miracles to make them some of the best TV we've ever seen. Joss is happy to take credit for that. He is a talented guy. But he's a jerk, and he should not be admired.

Charisma is someone who should be admired. I'm sorry This happened to her, and sorry that we didn't know it at the time. She's amazing. And Cordelia, I've said many times, was my favorite character to write. Charisma is the reason why.
https://twitter.com/btvsarchive/status/1359539302154272769
#JossWhedon #IStandWithRayFisher #istandwithcharismacarpenter

20. Christopher Golden - another Buffy novelist and tie-in writer:

Christopher Golden@ChristophGolden
There are so many people who could back up what allcharisma
is saying. I hope they follow amber_benson
's example and do that. Yes, it may cost you, but otherwise what's the point of anything?
#IStandWithRayFisher
#IStandWithCharismaCarpenter
#IStandWithAmberBenson

ETA1 -2-15-21:

21. Amy Acker Tweeted her support - she basically said that while she had a good experience, it's heartbreaking that not everyone did. And she doesn't condone any actions that made anyone feel uncomfortable. [I was surprised by this one, she's been in a lot of Whedon's television series.]

ETA2

22. Nicholas Brendan (also surprised, considering the poor man slipped on some black ice, broke his back and is undergoing spinal surgery. He did a live FB interview via his hospital bed. Fans were pestering him for a response - in regards to things that happened over 20 years ago back stage.) Nick Brendan's statement from FB - in his hospital bed. [ Honestly, I don't think you can expect a coherent statement from an actor lying in a hospital bed by himself in the middle of a pandemic waiting for spinal surgery about something that happened 20 years ago. Frigging hell, fandom.]

“I’m not speaking on Joss yet,” Brendon, 49, explained in a Facebook Live video on Monday, February 15, as he prepared to undergo spinal surgery. “It’s very personal for me, so I’ll speak on that when I’m ready to speak on that because he and I had a relationship. It’s a big part of my life, a very emotional part of my life and I want to give it the proper respect and time that it deserves.”

The actor, who played Xander Harris on the supernatural teen drama, added that “it’s hard” to come up with the right words to address situations like this. “It’s not just something I want to make a comment on, do you know what I mean?” he said. “If you don’t mind, I’m going to get some spinal surgery tomorrow and heal and come up with a statement that represents me.”

“I just hope that growth comes, and healing [comes] and him being a better person … because I think that’s what every day is about. You know what I mean? Not beating somebody up,” the Criminal Minds alum continued. “I mean, were there transgressions? Yeah, there were. To me as well … I had my relationship with Joss as well. And I love him. … I mean, for me, I took the good, I took the bad. But that’s not everybody. … I love and support [Charisma] very much and I know that story, and it’s not a kind story.”

Brendon later admitted that there were “transgressions” while working on the ’90s series, but that he still has a lot of respect for Whedon, 56, and his work.

[Also Bryan Fuller (writer/director) and Emily Deschanel came out in support.

23. Buffy stunt coordinators Jeff and Sarah Pruitt who left after S5, due to a major falling out with Whedon. They've been making allegations of toxic behavior since roughly 2000. "Last year, Crawford and her husband Jeff Pruit (Buffy's stunt coordinator) gave an interview describing Whedon as an "egomaniac" who tormented them while they worked on the show. They alleged that Whedon had Pruitt's home computer tapped and that Whedon demanded that Crawford break up with Pruitt in exchange for more work on the show. The couple quit Buffy, and while Pruitt claims that Whedon threatened their careers, they were able to find other jobs due to their own contacts in the industry."]


24. ETA3 - Stephen Denight - Buffy and Angel writer - lends his support.

Steven DeKnight@stevendeknight

I adore Charisma and Amber and all of the cast and crew of Buffy and Angel. But I can't really speak towards the specifics that I was not privy to or unaware of. That said, everyone deserves a voice and deserves to be heard. That is and must always be the case.



Also, as an aside, some Buffy fans are assholes. (I get it your hero has fallen off his pedestal, but come on.) Seriously. The people that actors have to put up with. I don't know how they do it. SMH One asshole, quietdemon (which pretty much tells you everything right there), was upset about woman accusing and suing his innocent buddies for harassment, so of course everyone here was lying to - and they needed proof. I'm not sure what proof he needs? David Boreanze was flashing his prick on the set and Whedon let him. What else do you need? I mean that kind of tells you right there that it was a toxic work environment. Hello. Another guy was accusing Charisma of being silly, and that's just the way directors are. One responded to Benz's tweet - "Did Joss Kill people, what did they survive from?" And another? was accusing them all of lying to get attention. Then there's the fans upset with Gellar for not going into detail and (they think) making it about her. Dusku didn't either. Both supported Charisma. And of course the fans who are upset with Brendan (who broke his back and can't get on a computer), Alyson (who is busy promoting a movie), and Alexis and Seth Green. But it is just a handful of folks, for the most part - and we already knew there are assholes out there - didn't we? The actors are used to them by now and just ignore them, they don't engage. They let the idiotic fans argue amongst themselves, with a few of us idiots trying to defend them against the assholes. [ETA: stupid fans are bullying poor Alyson Hannigan to speak up.]

For Ray Fisher?

1. Gail Gadot - on Whedon

2. Jason Momoa Jason Momoa also experienced mistreatment


I think Whedon is done. I know I'm going to have troubles watching his stuff for a bit - even though I think we can separate it. I had troubles watching Singing in the Rain last night - which I know, is silly.

The Whedon Studies Association has to rethink its entire mission statement, apparently it's huge and worldwide, with a large membership. They wondered if they should reach out to Whedon and request an explanation. Then remembered that Whedon had never responded to any requests they'd sent in the past and was kind of ignoring their existence. I told them (I joined the FB page, I'm no scholar and seldom involved - and have pretty much moved past Whedon - the comics killed me on him, well that and the Justice League Movie and horrid Wonder Woman script - which had gotten leaked on the internet) - anyhow I told them, that I wouldn't hold my breath or bother - there's no way, Whedon will release a statement on this. So, they finally decided, frack Whedon, we've decided to disassociate ourselves from him and to stand with Charisma and Ray Fisher. So too has Whedonseque - who changed their name on twitter to Wh*&%doneque for the time being.

I'm watching All Creatures Great and Small Today. I find it comforting.

Comments

[yourlibrarian]

That's very interesting about Jeff Marriotte's statement. I imagine he was indecisive about Angel at that point in time. He may have hoped for an Angel movie or some continuation as well, since he was soon to work on the Firefly film. But the fact that he was a jerk in other ways is telling.

[shadowkat]

Agreed.

I went and made sure I posted Marriott's statement - because that was fascinating. And I remember IDW getting screwed over by Whedon. Brian Lynch got screwed by Whedon as well.

[atpo_onm]

I'm watching All Creatures Great and Small Today.

Have you checked out Miss Scarlet and the Duke yet?

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/masterpiece/shows/miss-scarlet-and-the-duke/#

I've found it to be quite enjoyable.

As to Whedon, it's a sad situation for sure, but he's not my hero, Buffy and the other positive characters he and his actors and many others who helped create the shows are. You don't blame the children who turn out great despite a parent's lousy parenting skills.

What was that line... "It takes a village."

[shadowkat]

Have you checked out Miss Scarlet and the Duke yet?

Yes. I'm on the fence at the moment. But have set it to record other episodes. I saw the third episode missed the first two.

As to Whedon, it's a sad situation for sure, but he's not my hero, Buffy and the other positive characters he and his actors and many others who helped create the shows are. You don't blame the children who turn out great despite a parent's lousy parenting skills.

No disagreement here.

Like I said above - I think we can separate the two. And in the post "Can we continue to love the works of an artist - if the artist is an asshole?"

My difficulty is that I've always seen questionable content in these series - and now it's suddenly more blatant? Also there are a few things that don't work now, but that's pretty much true of all television series. But, you can skip over that content.

[mefisto]

A number of those tweets are good and validate the overall case that Joss was an asshole to work for. Some of them are kind of weaselly though, not conceding any wrongdoing but merely offering support to others (DB and JAR are notable on this). And of course the silence from others is striking.

Two other things stand out to me. First, that no one has expressed support for MT. Her statement sounds worse than CC's. Second, that nobody has confirmed CC's specific allegations. Maybe that's because they don't know, but it seems that *somebody* has to know and is staying silent.

[shadowkat]

I noticed it too. And wondered much the same - also have been thinking it over in my head. We've also been discussing it in the Whedon Studies Association FB page.

The conclusions that I've come up with, based on my own experiences with this sort of thing, and the patterns of behavior I've seen elsewhere:

Emma and James followed Gellar's example and their responses on Instagram and in James's case on both Twitter and Instagram, are almost exact copies of Gellars. James goes into a little more detail. They acknowledge things happened, and state they support "all the survivors of abuse". All three are being careful - and don't want to go into in any real depth. I think the reason SMG, Emma, and James didn't single out Charisma, was to be supportive of Trachenberg, Amber and others. Also, I know from interviews, and Q&A, that SMG, James and Emma all experienced the toxicity first hand. James talks about it at Q&A's and makes it clear that Gellar was burned out and overworked by the end of the series. James goes so far to state "The Buffy set was not without its challenges".

First, that no one has expressed support for MT. Her statement sounds worse than CC's. Second, that nobody has confirmed CC's specific allegations. Maybe that's because they don't know, but it seems that *somebody* has to know and is staying silent.

It's almost impossible for them to do so without repercussions. You and I both know that it is really really hard to do a case based on something that happened behind a closed door with just two people in a room - and no hard evidence. And I'm betting that Trachenberg said something, they covered it up, threatened her to stay quiet, and made everyone sign NDA's. Then put a rule in place that Whedon wasn't allowed alone in a room with her again.

But, I think Marti Noxon's article on abusive behavior in Hollywood kind of says it all - even though it's about Mad Men. (Whedon's behavior is by no means an isolated case - unfortunately. And from the hand-waving and the Q&A's, I'm guessing there's even worse show-runners out there. And from what I've read about Ray Fisher's allegations - Fisher is not as angry at Whedon as he is at Geoff Johns and Walter Mead - heads at Warner Brothers, who wield more power than Whedon.]

Here's Marti's article : How TV Industry Can Better Protect Writers from the Next Toxic Showrunner.

In late 2017, Emmy-winning Mad Men writer Kater Gordon accused the show's creator, Matthew Weiner, of sexual harassment. In a corroborated article, she alleged that while working together late one night on the former AMC drama, Weiner told her that she owed it to him to let him see her naked. A year later and after co-winning the Emmy, Gordon was let go from the critically acclaimed series. She has not worked in Hollywood since. She most recently founded the charitable fund Modern Alliance and joined the board of Hollaback, two efforts dedicated to preventing and ending sexual harassment. Weiner, meanwhile, has repeatedly denied Gordon's allegations, telling The New York Times in October 2018, "I have reasons I don't believe that I said it, if that makes sense, but I really don't remember saying it." Former Mad Men writer Marti Noxon publicly backed Gordon's claims. Now, as Weiner attempts to plot a comeback with a dramedy in development at Disney-owned FX, the two women look back at the experience and offer a plan for how to create a safer working environment so that history doesn't repeat itself. (FX declined comment.)

One of the worst things about experiencing gender discrimination, hostile work environments and sexual harassment over the many years of my career was that I was usually believed.

Let me repeat that. I was absolutely believed by most people.

The stories I reported were in workplaces known for the type of abuse I was experiencing, or at the hands of people who had reputations for all sorts of bad — and even illegal — behavior.

This problem is hardly unique to Hollywood, but it is surely true that this town loves the "difficult genius" myth almost as much as it loves male CEOs. And too often, that dictates enabling abusive people and systems in the name of art. A writer friend familiar with discrimination law put it best: "It's the rare industry that has such low accountability it attracts people who either can't or willfully refuse to work in environments that require it. It's a feature, not a bug."

In short, to answer your question on why someone hasn't specifically confirmed CC and MT's allegations? They are afraid to. It's not like Whedon wasn't accused before - Kai Cole did. And Ray Fisher in 2017. And Jason Momoa. And Gail Gadot went to management and they handled it - by using a body double for reshoots and she's been told not to give specifics. They were made to sign NDAs.

The NDA is a typical practice in Hollywood.

• In accordance with law now passed in 13 states, including California and New York, NDAs must focus more narrowly on the protection of confidential business information rather than on covering up a company's bad practices.

I know it is a practice - because in 2008, I was shocked to learn from various people who worked with Trump on the Apprentice, including a relative who worked as a paralegal for the main advertiser that sponsored the Apprentice - that Trump made everyone, including the legal team under the advertiser sign NDA's, and she had worked on the NDA. The NDA - stated that no one would reveal ANYTHING that happened backstage or on the set or any of Trump's behavior. The people on the meetup told me in detail what he did, but advised they couldn't come out publicly about it without severe repercussions.

Noxon reports here experience with Kater Gordon's Weiner disclosure:

bring this up in the wake of the firing of Peter Lenkov, the latest in a series of showrunners who were in the "open secret" club for being misogynist and abusive — as well as the recent decision by FX to develop a new show with Matthew Weiner, a creator who, as reported in the publication The Information and other media outlets, has a corroborated past of sexual harassment and bullying on his show, Mad Men.

I was well aware of his history, because I was one of two women who spoke out. The other was Kater Gordon.

When Ms. Gordon boldly came forward, I felt galvanized and terrified. Not only did I remember what happened to her, I had my own troubling experience with Matthew during my time working on the show. So, as I'd done before and like so many who have been in similarly toxic environments do regularly, I ran the math of the marginalized: How much will it cost me, in my career and reputation, to speak the truth? And how much mental anguish will I face from dealing with detractors and mud-slingers? To complicate matters further, I had been open about a period of relapse with alcohol during my professional life, and while I was solidly sober again, I feared my history might be used against me.

Like it or not? We're in a toxic culture that rewards and protects bullies, narcissists, and abusers. See the result of the Senate Impeachment Trial of Trump as proof of this.

[mefisto]

I noticed that Emma and James were basically copying Sarah, and your explanation makes sense.

I agree that most (all?) of what transpired between CC and JW happened with no witnesses, but others must be witnesses to some of the facts: for example, whether she told anyone about her pregnancy or whether the season had to be re-written because of the pregnancy. And I doubt the anger at CC, justified or not, was much of a secret.

The NDA point does explain the silence on all of these issues. If a lawsuit were brought today I'm sure CA law would break them for purposes of the suit, at least. I don't think a suit is possible for CC due to the statute of limitations, but it might be for MT if her statement refers to more than just "asshole boss screamed at a kid".

[mefisto]

In light of CC's latest statement praising DB, it seems my inference about him was wrong. Glad to know that.

[shadowkat]

I feel as if we're all speculating on the sidelines. There's so much that we can't possibly know, nor should we know.

I'm amazed MT posted what she did. She didn't want to at first - but fans pushed her on her instagram page to do so. (I read some of the comments - and got angry enough to respond to them - one idiot asked why she hadn't done so before now, indicating she was making stuff up). She responded to a couple (who were asking if she was okay, and hoping she didn't suffer anything directly herself)- and then because of the comments chose to reveal more. What she should have done was what Gellar did which is post the message and turn off all comments. (Gellar is a pro at social media now. She knows the media is camped out on it.)

What is evident though, regardless of what people may or may not believe - is it was a toxic work environment. There's plenty of evidence of it - we've just all hand-waved it over the years as shocking or funny backstage gossip.

I mean I scanned articles about the Dark Secrets of Buffy and Angel. And I've listened to the Q&A's. Whedon and other writers even joked about things they did - toxic things.

The better "run" series, which aren't toxic - don't have that gossip leaking out years or even during the shooting. Vampire Diaries didn't - and it also last far longer than Buffy did, as did Supernatural. The leads were also executive producers. If you notice, more and more lead actors also act as executive producers on series now - and have a lot more input. Back then? They had no input.

[mefisto]

At this point I think there's no doubt that Whedon was an asshole to work with (at least for lots of people). I remember at the time how the actors all said that it was really hard work for them, which I'm now inclined to see as meaning "we work long hours and Joss is an asshole" rather than just the first part.

[shadowkat]

Agreed. I think the first part may have been a direct result of the second - Joss is an asshole as a result we worked long hours, and Joss is an asshole and we worked long hours, but hey at least we have a job and are getting paid - and it won't last forever.

The fact that they re-shot an episode (Beneath You). He'd watched the edit and made them all come back and reshoot it that same night, after telling them how bad they were - and he'd save them - is kind of telling? I mean I remember reading about that reshoot and Marsters describing it in detail. That was a painful shoot. Long. And tiring. He was so exhausted when he did it, that he didn't care any longer.
Also, I saw the original script written by Doug Petrie - and it was longer. Whedon hated it. Blasted everyone and redid it. That's why it kind of stands out from the rest of the episode. As fans we adored it - but, I have a feeling it was painful to shoot.

Also in a recent interview - Gellar said the musical would have been easier if it were the first episode of the year, but it was later - and they didn't have much time to prepare. Whedon wrote it over the summer, and didn't work on the other episodes - and then threw it at them and said, guess what I'm doing a musical. Gellar - was like, "uhm, I can't sing or dance". She hired someone to help her - so basically killed herself to make it work. Marsters has told the story more than once. Whedon and Head say - "oh everyone was on board and loved the idea", and Marsters is like, "what? That's not what I'm remembering, man. I remember we all thought our careers were over and Joss had gone insane."
He went into detail once about it - they entered their trailers, there was a knock on the door, and they all got this cassette - telling them to listen to this - and this is our next episode. It was a tape of Joss and Kai singing all the songs Whedon wrote. And Marsters, states, "Joss isn't a musician or a good singer, nor was Kai, although she's slightly better. So it sounded awful. Everyone left their trailers at the same time with the same look - WTF? Has Whedon lost his mind? Are our careers gone? What can we do to stop this?" And he remarks that what made him really proud of the cast (not Whedon) - was everyone stepped up and did everything possible to make it work. Marsters was particularly proud of Sarah and sang her praises - since she had to do all the heavy lifting. She chose not to be dubbed - because the songs were too crucial to her character. Notably Whedon didn't make Hannigan sing and didn't give her any songs.

After it happened - both David Boreanze and Charisma Carpenter sent notes to Whedon stating that if he tried to do that to them - they'd walk out.

They never say in any of their cons or interviews that it was pleasant place to work.

[mefisto]

I expect that any creator of a great work -- and Buffy is a great show -- will be a perfectionist and hard to work with under the best of circumstances. The re-shoot is the kind of thing that does happen in other professions. I had to re-write briefs at the last minute and under pressure, and I'm sure you've had similar experiences. It sounds, though, as if Joss was a jerk even beyond that.

But let's face it: that closing scene of Beneath You is amazing. I think it may be the best scene in the series (lots of competition, of course).

[shadowkat]

I agree. What I'm kind of struggling with at the moment is does an auteur have to be an ass? And what if more time were alotted? I mean - Joss could have written Beneath You instated of Doug Petrie or broken it up?

I don't know if it excuses the behavior. I've questioned this in my own workplace - unnecessary stress. Are there things that require a deadline and must be done fast? Yes. But often, it's careless and selfish behavior resulting in this situation.

In Whedon's case? Regarding Beneath You? At the end of the day? It's just a television series with commercials. Was the scene amazing, yes. Did I love it yes, but...and it's just one example. There are so many. Television shows are filmed quickly and the industry needs to re-evaluate how they are created. I mean - in 1990s and 2000 that made sense. Now? Not so much. So it can change.

[mefisto]

Every single case I know of in the legal profession of stressful situations involves bad organization/planning by those in charge. When I got to organize my own schedule, I always got the work done in advance with no last minute emergencies. So yeah, there's a toxic culture involving a "see how hard we work" mentality that poisons probably all business.

The sad thing is that most such last minute work is actually low quality. Nobody works well under pressure and mistakes are much more common. But whatever the reason, that didn't happen with Beneath You.

[shadowkat]

When I got to organize my own schedule, I always got the work done in advance with no last minute emergencies. So yeah, there's a toxic culture involving a "see how hard we work" mentality that poisons probably all business.

Exactly. The problem is dealing with the procrastinators. Sigh.

The sad thing is that most such last minute work is actually low quality. Nobody works well under pressure and mistakes are much more common. But whatever the reason, that didn't happen with Beneath You.

I'd place the credit on Gellar and Marsters who poured everything they had into that scene. All Whedon did was write it and tell them what he wanted. The people who did the work were the actors, camera crew, lighting crew, film editors, makeup, etc.

It's kind of easy to write a script - it's just you and the paper. And the words. Direction is more difficult - because you have to convey what you want to another person. And that's hard to do - I did it once, I'll never do it again. Acting is even harder - because you have to interpret what is on the page, hit the marks, and somehow bring to life what is in the writers heads. And screen-acting? Ugh.
It's okay that was great, but we have to do it again because of glare on the camera lense. Or the lights were off. Or your hand was in the wrong place.

For an actor the first take is often their best. But it's rarely what we see.

I agree it was amazingly well done. But I don't credit Whedon with it any longer...I'm crediting Gellar and Marsters and the crew. I should have prior to now, I regret that. I think that's the mistake fans have made over the years? We give all the credit to the writers, or all to Whedon, often forgetting this is a collaborative work of art. It's not a novel. I've seen a lot of people in the fandom still doing that to some extent - acting as if its a novel. But it's a television show.

I had the same issue with fans in regards to the television show to the comics. Of course the comics weren't as good - it didn't have everyone, all it had was Whedon. That's not Buffy. It's not really Whedon's.

I could read fanfic without any problems - because I didn't consider the story belonging to one person. Once it aired - it changed. Everyone sees it differently.

[avrelia]

Thank you for compiling all the anti-joss support links together, and the link to Marty Noxon's article.

The problem is that Joss is not the worst of "cool genius" type. We just expected better of him, and it's more painful. People started to talk about new HBO documentary on Woody Allen, and I am afraid to watch it. Don't expect anything good about Allen there...

I just hope that with better visibility and people talking, the industry standards won't allowed for toxic environment, and all is good if the product is successful mentality. We shouldn't torture people to get "a good product"

[shadowkat]

Thank you for compiling all the anti-joss support links together, and the link to Marty Noxon's
article.

I think it's a mistake to call it anti-joss support, because that's not what those are. They are supporting Charisma and Ray Fisher - they are pro-Charisma and pro-Ray Fisher. I went out of my way to show it was in support of Charisma and Ray.

The problem is that Joss is not the worst of "cool genius" type. We just expected better of him, and it's more painful. People started to talk about new HBO documentary on Woody Allen, and I am afraid to watch it. Don't expect anything good about Allen there...

Well true. But. No. That does not excuse his actions. Too often we hand-wave bad behavior because of comparing it to someone - who we personally believe is worse. OR we personally view as worse - as if it is a contest. Oh, this guy isn't as bad as that guy, so he gets a pass...

It's what annoys me the most right now about our society right now. I get the impulse. I do. But,
I've lost count of the "what about so and so" arguments or "well, so and so is far worse." I've had a lot of those arguments with Trump supporters who said, well, Trump is better than Hilary. Or what about all the bad stuff on the Clintons. My response is the same? So what. The Clintons are irrelevant. And of course they get their back up. Well my villain is worse than yours!

It's kind of like a child excusing their actions to a parent. Well what about Sally or Joey, they did such and such, why are you upset with me? I wasn't as bad as they are. I should get a free pass. Hello. Parent - because this is about you not them. They didn't do THIS, you did, and you need to be held accountable for it.

You can still love the works of Joss Whedon. That's not what this is about.

This is about holding people accountable for a toxic work environment and supporting those who survived it.


I just hope that with better visibility and people talking, the industry standards won't allowed for toxic environment, and all is good if the product is successful mentality. We shouldn't torture people to get "a good product"

I agree here. Absolutely. That is what this about - they are trying to change the industry and change a pattern of bad behavior. That's why Ray Fisher sued WB, and why Charisma stopped being silent. That's the only reason.

[avrelia]

I didn't mean that Joss should get a pass, definitely, just because that others are worse. I am glad that after two decades of whispers and doubts people are talking openly that his behaviour is not okay, was not okay, and cannot be tolerated any longer.