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shadowkatSo, I'm on a Face Book Group that is an extension of the "Whedon Studies Association". (Note I am not a member of the Whedon Studies Association - since I'm not an academic, but I've written a shit-load of meta on Whedon over the years. You can find it all HERE.)
Anyhow, one of the people in the group - posted this with the following statement: "One big takeaway from the article is that the Trachtenberg rule was as a result of a verbal exchange and not anything physical, as I had been telling people (until I was warned it wasn't safe for me to discuss this online, I hope it's safe here). I'm disappointed in Trachtenberg for making it sound like it was physical as that was what brought up fan anger. We've all had dick bosses."
Then of course people on the FB page kicked the poor woman. I was annoyed enough by it to come to her defense. Fandom? You can be a judgemental holier-than-thou self-righteous asshole, sometimes, just saying.
Anyhow...here's the article :
Inside Joss Whedon's Cutting and Toxic World of Buffy and Angel
Interviews that Variety conducted with 11 individuals who worked directly on “Buffy” or “Angel,” or were closely familiar with the productions during their runs on The WB and UPN, painted a portrait of Whedon as a talented, collaborative writer-producer with a pattern of inappropriate, imperious and disparaging behavior toward those who worked for him. Whedon created a “cult of personality” around himself, according to these sources. Those on the inside of Whedon’s circle basked in his attention, praise and friendship; those on the outside got the opposite: scorn, derision and callousness. (Everyone Variety spoke with did so on condition of anonymity, either so they could speak freely or out of concern for their careers.)
Variety also reached out to 40 other actors, writers, producers and directors from “Buffy” and “Angel” — including Sarah Michelle Gellar, Michelle Trachtenberg, Amber Benson, Eliza Dushku, David Boreanaz and Alyson Hannigan — all of whom declined to participate in this story.
***
A source who worked with Carpenter when she was on “Buffy” and “Angel” corroborated her story with Variety, saying that Carpenter would often discuss the mistreatment at the time, characterizing it as “very, very bad,” “mean-spirited” and “verbal abuse.”
Whedon declined to comment on Carpenter’s allegations when she first made them, and declined to comment when contacted by Variety for this story.
***
The most troubling statement came from Trachtenberg, who played Buffy’s younger sister, Dawn, on three seasons of the show, starting when she was 15. In an Instagram post, Trachtenberg characterized Whedon’s behavior as “not appropriate.” In a later update to the caption, she alleged there was a “rule” on the set that Whedon was forbidden to be alone in a room with her.
While several high-placed sources who worked on “Buffy” say they were not aware of this rule, a person with direct knowledge of the production at the time confirms to Variety that an effort was made by those around Trachtenberg to ensure the young actor was never alone with Whedon. According to this person, it was due to an improper verbal exchange between Whedon and Trachtenberg.
A representative for Trachtenberg declined to comment.
***
“Buffy” and “Angel” aired in the late 1990s and early 2000s, long before the #MeToo movement, when the industry more freely abetted on-set misconduct in order to keep top talent happy and working. Hollywood still has a long way to go in ensuring safe and equitable workplaces, but what makes the allegations by the “Buffy” and “Angel” actors especially troubling is that they come on the heels of recent, mounting claims of misbehavior by Whedon. In July 2020, “Justice League” actor Ray Fisher alleged that Whedon acted in a “gross, abusive, unprofessional, and completely unacceptable” manner on the set of the 2017 superhero movie, comments that were publicly supported by Fisher’s A-list co-stars Gal Gadot (“Wonder Woman”) and Jason Momoa (“Aquaman”). In the middle of WarnerMedia’s investigation into Fisher’s claims, Whedon abruptly departed the sci-fi fantasy series “The Nevers,” which he created and executive produced for HBO. (WarnerMedia, which launched the “Justice League” investigation, is the parent company of HBO.)
Multiple high-placed sources say if there were any complaints about Whedon on the sets of “Buffy” or “Angel,” they never rose to the studio level or became an official matter with human resources. Nor did those who spoke with Variety have knowledge of any payouts or settlements regarding Whedon’s alleged behavior while “Buffy” was in production.
20th Television, the studio behind “Buffy” and “Angel,” declined to comment.
***
Insiders say the combination of Whedon’s lack of experience running a television show, the financial pressures of delivering an action-and-effects-heavy hourlong dramedy, a cast largely populated with young and eager actors, and the absence of regular supervision contributed to an environment ripe for a chaotic, highly competitive, toxic workplace. Many people who spoke with Variety described the set as operating like high school, with Whedon making everyone aware of who was in and who was out.
Another major factor contributing to the messy nature of the “Buffy” set: Stories of Whedon engaging in affairs with women working on the show quickly spread, according to three independent sources. As the executive producer and showrunner, Whedon was the boss, including of the women with whom he engaged in relationships. The alleged behavior contributed to a toxic workplace and heightened competition on set, blurring the lines between personal and professional demeanor for the cast — dynamics that continued long after Whedon’s purported affairs ended.
These sources echo allegations made by Whedon’s ex-wife, Kai Cole, who in August 2017 wrote in The Wrap that Whedon had engaged in multiple affairs with his actors and co-workers, starting when he was making “Buffy.” According to Cole, Whedon admitted the affairs to her in writing and wrote to her, “I was surrounded by beautiful, needy, aggressive young women. It felt like I had a disease, like something from a Greek myth. Suddenly I am a powerful producer and the world is laid out at my feet and I can’t touch it.” At the time, a spokesperson for Whedon said Cole’s account “includes inaccuracies and misrepresentations.”
“Buffy” and “Angel” had grueling schedules, shooting 22 episodes a season, often at night. Actors requiring elaborate makeup could end up clocking 21-hour days, and shoots sometimes did not wrap until 4 a.m. It was common for production on a Friday to bleed into Saturday morning, wiping out any chance for the cast and crew to enjoy a full weekend off. The practice even had a name: Fraterdays.
***
In that high-pressure production environment, the “Buffy” set was often aggressively adult, with inappropriate and cutting jokes flying behind the scenes. One source with detailed knowledge of the production recalls Trachtenberg’s mother expressing frustration because the set atmosphere was inappropriate for a young teenager.
Whedon was “both feared and idolized” by the actors on the show, says a person who was part of the team overseeing “Buffy” during its run. He could be fulsome with his attention with one of his favorites, and “sharp-tongued” when he was displeased.
For Carpenter, it appears, that dynamic started early. According to an individual who held a top position close to the show in its early years, Whedon was pushed by the network to cast Carpenter on “Buffy,” but he was never a big fan of her work. He’d frequently pick on her, and the source says some writers on the show, following Whedon’s lead, were openly dismissive of Carpenter’s acting skills. Two separate people in high positions related to the show recall internal complaints relating to Carpenter’s tardiness on set that led to production delays and contributed to a general sense of ill feeling for the actor, feelings Whedon weaponized into an environment in which Carpenter wasn’t treated with respect.
The person who worked closely with Carpenter while she starred on “Buffy” and “Angel” recalls the actor frequently describing Whedon as being “mean-spirited” and “verbally abusive” toward her, making it obvious to her that he had favorites — and she was not one of them. “That was his game,” this person says of Whedon. Playing favorites led to simmering animosity among the cast, according to multiple sources, both from the studio and the writers’ room.
One producer says the writers on “Buffy” enjoyed writing for Carpenter’s character. But, the source adds, the attitude around Carpenter grew more hostile after she moved over to “Angel,” where she was ultimately written off the show after her pregnancy.
A spokesperson for Carpenter declined to comment for this story.
***
Even Whedon’s top star apparently had difficulty with him. Two sources familiar with the production say that fairly early into the show’s run, Gellar had a severed relationship with Whedon, to the extent that she did not want his name spoken around her. That made for awkwardness on set. Although Whedon moved on from being the day-to-day showrunner on “Buffy” in 2001, he was still the overall executive producer, and was writing and directing episodes until the series ended in 2003.
***
A common refrain about Whedon is that his idea of a good joke entailed being biting and downright nasty. “It was not fun to be on the butt end of his humor,” says one source.
Nell Scovell, creator of “Sabrina the Teenage Witch,” experienced Whedon’s inappropriate humor early during “Buffy’s” run. In 1998, when she was pregnant and two weeks from her due date, she met with Whedon and “Buffy” executive producer David Greenwalt for a possible writing job. As Scovell relates in her 2018 memoir, “Buffy” was her favorite television show, so she took the meeting. She writes that Joss “took one look at me and said, ‘Boy, are you fat.’ I laughed so hard, I thought I was going to have the baby. David Greenwalt followed up by asking, ‘Should I put down a tarp?'” Scovell did not get the job. (Greenwalt did not respond to a request for comment.)
“‘Casually cruel’ is a perfect way of describing Joss,” Jose Molina, who was a writer on Whedon’s short-lived, much-loved sci-fi series “Firefly” in 2002 and 2003, posted on Twitter on Feb. 12. “He thought being mean was funny. Making female writers cry during a notes session was especially hysterical. He actually liked to boast about the time he made one writer cry twice in one meeting.”
Scovell and Molina both declined Variety‘s requests to comment further.
**
While those working under Whedon weathered his mercurial behavior, the powers that be above him viewed him as a collaborative employee — a charming producer who understood budgets and never complained about doing press to promote his shows. There is a general sense among those who spoke with Variety that Whedon knew how to “manage up,” and acted differently toward those he worked for versus those who worked for him. All of the sources were emphatic that they believe the women and men who have come forward.
YES. This is what a serial bully looks like. And I've had so many. My current Boss is just like this - I am working under a man who is a lot like what is being described in that paragraph as we speak. And have for fourteen years. Yet, I consider him better than the asshole I worked for at two other companies. I've gotten used to it.
It's about the folks who only learned to "manage up".
My takeaways -
1. Whedon sounds a lot like the boss I've had for the last fourteen years, and similar to others I've had in the past. There was no sexual abuse. It was all verbal, and mainly manipulative. He played people against each other, and had his favorites. You were either in or you were out, and the actors had no input. And he was very good at managing above him. Below? He had his pets, everyone else he treated like crap. Seen that in so many workplaces, I've lost count. I see it in my current one. My current boss is just like Joss Whedon. He's a black man, not white. Attractive. And can be exceedingly kind. We call him Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde.
2. Most of the sources did not want to be named, and everyone else declined to comment. I see legal issues at play. It's VERY hard to prove this type of bullying. I know I've because I've been on the receiving end of it - and in those work places. This is so typical of hostile work environments. I remember being asked why I wasn't reporting it to HR, and a colleague and I had the same response - we didn't want to lose our jobs and feared retribution. And we were in a union. I told a female co-worker, who is white, and felt our boss was discriminating against us because he had issues with White Women, not to say anything - after he threw files at her - heavy files and screamed at her to clean her stuff out of one of the cubicles. Without warning. I told her - she'd be dismissed out of hand, and we couldn't prove it. More than once - she's come to me, after I was left a shaking, trembling wreck by him - about the possibility of filing a claim. But I talked to a lawyer in our group - and he strongly advised against it.
And I knew from my own research there was nothing we could do. When I tried to do something - and confronted him on it, he gave me less work and delayed my promotion.
3. For the fans out there who want to hunt through old stuff to see instances of it?
* Interviews with the cast members and writers,
* Q&A's at cons - posted on Youtube,
* fan reports from the Cons,
* commentary on DVD's, and outtakes.
* Footage of various scenes released on the internet
* Bronze Beta/Whedonesque discussions with the writers
* Things the writers said on the Angel's Soul Board
* Fans who knew cast members and crew members personally
It's out there. And not hard for you to find.
Where you won't find it : in any of the television series, films, comics.
Whedon never wrote things by himself - all of his art was collaborative. Comics, television, and film are all without exception collaborative art forms. You can't really tell a director/writer is an ass merely by watching or reading their work. Even people who create work by themselves - you can't tell.
Anymore than you can tell that your boss is abusive by the products you create or from their behavior towards you. And from your perspective? Your boss could be lovely, and you adore them, but your coworkers may be going home each night in tears - and you are oblivious. Are you enabling it? I don't know. I've asked myself that question so many times. I don't think so. It's not Alyson Hannigan's or Amy Acker's fault that Whedon loved her and treated others abysmally. Any more than it is Chidi's fault that our boss loves him. Like I said above, I have a boss now, who some people love to pieces, and others despise. He's like two different people. My father called him Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde.
****
How can you stop this behavior in the work place? Well, you don't do it by deciding that you hate Buffy/Angel and all things Whedon now, and boycott it and bully anyone who loves it into submission - that's kind of counter-productive and it doesn't help any of us who have survived toxic work environments or are still surviving them. (Actually Buffy got me through a toxic work environment. The Buffy fandom helped me survive it - ironic, but true.)
First, open your eyes to it. See it for what it is and try to stand up to it. Which is really hard. But if you aren't the target and the boss likes you - than it is imperative that you be the one to try to do something about it. What would have happened if someone had done that with Whedon? If one of his friends pulled him aside and said, you know, Joss, you are a great guy, but this is inappropriate - and you are hurting this person - could we maybe not do that?
It is why we have unions and it is important to support unions - as frustrating as they can be, they do protect people from evil bosses. It's why I'm in one. Unions wouldn't exist if this behavior didn't exist. My boss can scream at me, but he can't fire me, and he can't obviously take away work. And he did promote me. Eventually.
It's why there's a Screen Actors Guild. In the old days - or the "studio system" - actors were treated like cattle. And even called that by directors and studio execs. They had no choices. Judy Garland was literally destroyed by the studio system. Want to see the effects of a toxic work environment? Watch the film "Judy".
William Goldman talked about the toxic set experiences he had in his books, as does Carrie Fisher in the Princess Diaries (Lucas was not an easy man to work with), and Shelly Duvall about Kubrick. No one was quite as bad as Alfred Hitchcock. Hitchcock kind of makes the rest look rather nice by comparison.
It's also important to understand that it goes across industries. And is not relegated to just one.
I had a boss who told me once that I was didn't stroke his ego enough and make him feel good about himself. This was in 2001, shortly after 9/11, about two months later.
I was in tears at the time - because he'd ripped me to shreds. On one hand he told me I was a strategic genius and the smartest person in the company, and too aggress Told me that I was too aloof. That I wasn't kind in the halls. That I didn't say hello enough. On and on.
I remember responding to him : You are my boss. I am the employee. You have the power in this relationship, not me. It is not my job to make you feel good about yourself or support you, it's the opposite way around. I'm not paid to be your cheerleader.
Several months later, when he tried to do it again, I told him: I know what you did. I know you hired a woman to take over my job, and lied to me. I know you paid her far more than I was making, and pretended that she was my associate when you wanted her to force me out. I know this because she told me and your behavior has supported it.
He stared at me and then said: She told you that?
Me: Yes.
Boss: I'm glad I fired her.
Me: I have done a good job. You have nothing on me. And I know you lied to me. I think we are done here.
Ten months later, with the support of friends, family, and folks in the Buffy fandom, I quit that job and was unemployed for 23 months. In the intervening time - I took a few Human Resources classes at NYU School of Business and Continuing Education. They would mention human resources violations and say, has anyone experienced this? Up went my hand. My hand went up for every single violation mentioned. They'd ask me to describe it. I did in detail. They'd stare at me. Finally they asked, what company was this?
The HW Wilson Company, a Library Reference Publishing Company in the Bronx.
Over 100 years old. It was sold about ten years after I left it, by which time I was working in my current postion and making a lot more money, and with better benefits and protections. While the Boss was admittedly mercurial and screamed at me often - somewhat like the first boss I had at Wilson, who used to scream at me for twenty minutes once a month. I'd gotten so used to Lewicky, that was his name, screaming his head off at me - that I didn't quite notice when the next boss - who took over when Lewicky left, was trying to do the same thing. Lewicky was nice, kind of creepy at times, but nice - his bark was worse than his bite. BOSS at current company, who I have reported to for 14 years now, also likes to yell at me - but his bark is also worse than his bite. But I'd be lying to you if I said it didn't have side-effects.
I've high blood pressure. I've struggled with weight over the years. I've been in and out of counseling. And I shake - it's an inherited essential tremor - but it is worse than my mother's or brother's. And when people yell at me or get me really upset, I shake so badly I can't type.
I also jump when anyone comes behind me and am easily startled. And I have issues with authority figures - I don't trust them, and I tend to question them.
People at my work place see me as the toughest person on the floor. I will yell back. I will hold my own. When current boss tried to bully me about my shaking and inability to hold eye contact with him - I questioned him and gave him information on my essential tremor. When he ripped into me for it, I told him that he was bullying me and I'd been through it before and to stop. We got into a fight about it.
I am the type of person who will go up to a bully and call them one to their face. But I'm also careful. I know the laws. There are no bullying laws in the State of New York - I know I researched it. If I had sued the Wilson Company, I would have lost.
Proving serial bullying is impossible. And getting people to back you up? Even more so. People take sides. And they are scared. No one at Wilson backed me up. My close friend at the time? Refused to acknowledge it was happening "directly" - but ten years later, she told me it was and apologized.
I took my father's advice and left with my integrity intact. I'm proud of that. I didn't hurt the company in any way. In fact - everyone who came into my position after I left, sang my praises, they loved me. I'd made their job easier. And the company who bought Wilson out - loved my work product and praised me. And my co-workers missed me - because no one could quite replace me.
The evil boss? Michael Schulze was his name. He left the company in disgrace. One year after I left, he embarrassed himself at the American Library Association Conference - he was drunk. The man was an alcoholic and bi-polar. He was mentally ill. See, people are more than one thing.
He had troubles getting a job after that.
Schulze looked just like Ricky Gervais in the British version of The Office. Which is why I couldn't watch that show, nor could my co-workers who worked under him. It triggered us.
I tell you this story to try to get across how prevalent this is. Joss Whedon, unfortunately, is not the exception, he's the rule. And he was created by the toxic society he lives in. A society, that like it or not, we are all responsible for creating and contributing to.
The job he had prior to show-running Buffy was Roseanne, which was considered at that time openly toxic. Roseanne fired writers every week. And it's not just show business. It is every single work environment in our world. It's every government. Every ruling body.
I am learning to hate the behavior not the people. The best thing about stories - is they show us how to do that and why. It's so easy to hate the people - requires less work. Hating the behavior requires more work, I think. It requires us to see past the behavior to the person inside. Most people are like Whedon and current Boss - they are in a way Dr. Jekyll's and Mr Hyde's. Capable of wonderful things and horrible ones, often at the same time.
Finally... A partial defense of Joss Whedon and Harmful Creators
I have issues with social media - because it weaponizes things. But with no real proof. And a lot of vagueness. When requested for more clarity or information - they refuse to provide it.
People on Whedonesque call it blaming the victim, but I don't see any of these people as victims. They are all wealthy, they are not sick with COVID, they are not in the hospital, and they are employed.
And what happened - happened twenty years ago. They didn't report it.
Until now - when it helped Ray Fisher.
So, do I believe there was a toxic work environment? Yes. But, I don't think how they handled it is any better. We need to stop using social media to destroy people. And, he makes some good points.
Anyhow, one of the people in the group - posted this with the following statement: "One big takeaway from the article is that the Trachtenberg rule was as a result of a verbal exchange and not anything physical, as I had been telling people (until I was warned it wasn't safe for me to discuss this online, I hope it's safe here). I'm disappointed in Trachtenberg for making it sound like it was physical as that was what brought up fan anger. We've all had dick bosses."
Then of course people on the FB page kicked the poor woman. I was annoyed enough by it to come to her defense. Fandom? You can be a judgemental holier-than-thou self-righteous asshole, sometimes, just saying.
Anyhow...here's the article :
Inside Joss Whedon's Cutting and Toxic World of Buffy and Angel
Interviews that Variety conducted with 11 individuals who worked directly on “Buffy” or “Angel,” or were closely familiar with the productions during their runs on The WB and UPN, painted a portrait of Whedon as a talented, collaborative writer-producer with a pattern of inappropriate, imperious and disparaging behavior toward those who worked for him. Whedon created a “cult of personality” around himself, according to these sources. Those on the inside of Whedon’s circle basked in his attention, praise and friendship; those on the outside got the opposite: scorn, derision and callousness. (Everyone Variety spoke with did so on condition of anonymity, either so they could speak freely or out of concern for their careers.)
Variety also reached out to 40 other actors, writers, producers and directors from “Buffy” and “Angel” — including Sarah Michelle Gellar, Michelle Trachtenberg, Amber Benson, Eliza Dushku, David Boreanaz and Alyson Hannigan — all of whom declined to participate in this story.
***
A source who worked with Carpenter when she was on “Buffy” and “Angel” corroborated her story with Variety, saying that Carpenter would often discuss the mistreatment at the time, characterizing it as “very, very bad,” “mean-spirited” and “verbal abuse.”
Whedon declined to comment on Carpenter’s allegations when she first made them, and declined to comment when contacted by Variety for this story.
***
The most troubling statement came from Trachtenberg, who played Buffy’s younger sister, Dawn, on three seasons of the show, starting when she was 15. In an Instagram post, Trachtenberg characterized Whedon’s behavior as “not appropriate.” In a later update to the caption, she alleged there was a “rule” on the set that Whedon was forbidden to be alone in a room with her.
While several high-placed sources who worked on “Buffy” say they were not aware of this rule, a person with direct knowledge of the production at the time confirms to Variety that an effort was made by those around Trachtenberg to ensure the young actor was never alone with Whedon. According to this person, it was due to an improper verbal exchange between Whedon and Trachtenberg.
A representative for Trachtenberg declined to comment.
***
“Buffy” and “Angel” aired in the late 1990s and early 2000s, long before the #MeToo movement, when the industry more freely abetted on-set misconduct in order to keep top talent happy and working. Hollywood still has a long way to go in ensuring safe and equitable workplaces, but what makes the allegations by the “Buffy” and “Angel” actors especially troubling is that they come on the heels of recent, mounting claims of misbehavior by Whedon. In July 2020, “Justice League” actor Ray Fisher alleged that Whedon acted in a “gross, abusive, unprofessional, and completely unacceptable” manner on the set of the 2017 superhero movie, comments that were publicly supported by Fisher’s A-list co-stars Gal Gadot (“Wonder Woman”) and Jason Momoa (“Aquaman”). In the middle of WarnerMedia’s investigation into Fisher’s claims, Whedon abruptly departed the sci-fi fantasy series “The Nevers,” which he created and executive produced for HBO. (WarnerMedia, which launched the “Justice League” investigation, is the parent company of HBO.)
Multiple high-placed sources say if there were any complaints about Whedon on the sets of “Buffy” or “Angel,” they never rose to the studio level or became an official matter with human resources. Nor did those who spoke with Variety have knowledge of any payouts or settlements regarding Whedon’s alleged behavior while “Buffy” was in production.
20th Television, the studio behind “Buffy” and “Angel,” declined to comment.
***
Insiders say the combination of Whedon’s lack of experience running a television show, the financial pressures of delivering an action-and-effects-heavy hourlong dramedy, a cast largely populated with young and eager actors, and the absence of regular supervision contributed to an environment ripe for a chaotic, highly competitive, toxic workplace. Many people who spoke with Variety described the set as operating like high school, with Whedon making everyone aware of who was in and who was out.
Another major factor contributing to the messy nature of the “Buffy” set: Stories of Whedon engaging in affairs with women working on the show quickly spread, according to three independent sources. As the executive producer and showrunner, Whedon was the boss, including of the women with whom he engaged in relationships. The alleged behavior contributed to a toxic workplace and heightened competition on set, blurring the lines between personal and professional demeanor for the cast — dynamics that continued long after Whedon’s purported affairs ended.
These sources echo allegations made by Whedon’s ex-wife, Kai Cole, who in August 2017 wrote in The Wrap that Whedon had engaged in multiple affairs with his actors and co-workers, starting when he was making “Buffy.” According to Cole, Whedon admitted the affairs to her in writing and wrote to her, “I was surrounded by beautiful, needy, aggressive young women. It felt like I had a disease, like something from a Greek myth. Suddenly I am a powerful producer and the world is laid out at my feet and I can’t touch it.” At the time, a spokesperson for Whedon said Cole’s account “includes inaccuracies and misrepresentations.”
“Buffy” and “Angel” had grueling schedules, shooting 22 episodes a season, often at night. Actors requiring elaborate makeup could end up clocking 21-hour days, and shoots sometimes did not wrap until 4 a.m. It was common for production on a Friday to bleed into Saturday morning, wiping out any chance for the cast and crew to enjoy a full weekend off. The practice even had a name: Fraterdays.
***
In that high-pressure production environment, the “Buffy” set was often aggressively adult, with inappropriate and cutting jokes flying behind the scenes. One source with detailed knowledge of the production recalls Trachtenberg’s mother expressing frustration because the set atmosphere was inappropriate for a young teenager.
Whedon was “both feared and idolized” by the actors on the show, says a person who was part of the team overseeing “Buffy” during its run. He could be fulsome with his attention with one of his favorites, and “sharp-tongued” when he was displeased.
For Carpenter, it appears, that dynamic started early. According to an individual who held a top position close to the show in its early years, Whedon was pushed by the network to cast Carpenter on “Buffy,” but he was never a big fan of her work. He’d frequently pick on her, and the source says some writers on the show, following Whedon’s lead, were openly dismissive of Carpenter’s acting skills. Two separate people in high positions related to the show recall internal complaints relating to Carpenter’s tardiness on set that led to production delays and contributed to a general sense of ill feeling for the actor, feelings Whedon weaponized into an environment in which Carpenter wasn’t treated with respect.
The person who worked closely with Carpenter while she starred on “Buffy” and “Angel” recalls the actor frequently describing Whedon as being “mean-spirited” and “verbally abusive” toward her, making it obvious to her that he had favorites — and she was not one of them. “That was his game,” this person says of Whedon. Playing favorites led to simmering animosity among the cast, according to multiple sources, both from the studio and the writers’ room.
One producer says the writers on “Buffy” enjoyed writing for Carpenter’s character. But, the source adds, the attitude around Carpenter grew more hostile after she moved over to “Angel,” where she was ultimately written off the show after her pregnancy.
A spokesperson for Carpenter declined to comment for this story.
***
Even Whedon’s top star apparently had difficulty with him. Two sources familiar with the production say that fairly early into the show’s run, Gellar had a severed relationship with Whedon, to the extent that she did not want his name spoken around her. That made for awkwardness on set. Although Whedon moved on from being the day-to-day showrunner on “Buffy” in 2001, he was still the overall executive producer, and was writing and directing episodes until the series ended in 2003.
***
A common refrain about Whedon is that his idea of a good joke entailed being biting and downright nasty. “It was not fun to be on the butt end of his humor,” says one source.
Nell Scovell, creator of “Sabrina the Teenage Witch,” experienced Whedon’s inappropriate humor early during “Buffy’s” run. In 1998, when she was pregnant and two weeks from her due date, she met with Whedon and “Buffy” executive producer David Greenwalt for a possible writing job. As Scovell relates in her 2018 memoir, “Buffy” was her favorite television show, so she took the meeting. She writes that Joss “took one look at me and said, ‘Boy, are you fat.’ I laughed so hard, I thought I was going to have the baby. David Greenwalt followed up by asking, ‘Should I put down a tarp?'” Scovell did not get the job. (Greenwalt did not respond to a request for comment.)
“‘Casually cruel’ is a perfect way of describing Joss,” Jose Molina, who was a writer on Whedon’s short-lived, much-loved sci-fi series “Firefly” in 2002 and 2003, posted on Twitter on Feb. 12. “He thought being mean was funny. Making female writers cry during a notes session was especially hysterical. He actually liked to boast about the time he made one writer cry twice in one meeting.”
Scovell and Molina both declined Variety‘s requests to comment further.
**
While those working under Whedon weathered his mercurial behavior, the powers that be above him viewed him as a collaborative employee — a charming producer who understood budgets and never complained about doing press to promote his shows. There is a general sense among those who spoke with Variety that Whedon knew how to “manage up,” and acted differently toward those he worked for versus those who worked for him. All of the sources were emphatic that they believe the women and men who have come forward.
YES. This is what a serial bully looks like. And I've had so many. My current Boss is just like this - I am working under a man who is a lot like what is being described in that paragraph as we speak. And have for fourteen years. Yet, I consider him better than the asshole I worked for at two other companies. I've gotten used to it.
It's about the folks who only learned to "manage up".
My takeaways -
1. Whedon sounds a lot like the boss I've had for the last fourteen years, and similar to others I've had in the past. There was no sexual abuse. It was all verbal, and mainly manipulative. He played people against each other, and had his favorites. You were either in or you were out, and the actors had no input. And he was very good at managing above him. Below? He had his pets, everyone else he treated like crap. Seen that in so many workplaces, I've lost count. I see it in my current one. My current boss is just like Joss Whedon. He's a black man, not white. Attractive. And can be exceedingly kind. We call him Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde.
2. Most of the sources did not want to be named, and everyone else declined to comment. I see legal issues at play. It's VERY hard to prove this type of bullying. I know I've because I've been on the receiving end of it - and in those work places. This is so typical of hostile work environments. I remember being asked why I wasn't reporting it to HR, and a colleague and I had the same response - we didn't want to lose our jobs and feared retribution. And we were in a union. I told a female co-worker, who is white, and felt our boss was discriminating against us because he had issues with White Women, not to say anything - after he threw files at her - heavy files and screamed at her to clean her stuff out of one of the cubicles. Without warning. I told her - she'd be dismissed out of hand, and we couldn't prove it. More than once - she's come to me, after I was left a shaking, trembling wreck by him - about the possibility of filing a claim. But I talked to a lawyer in our group - and he strongly advised against it.
And I knew from my own research there was nothing we could do. When I tried to do something - and confronted him on it, he gave me less work and delayed my promotion.
3. For the fans out there who want to hunt through old stuff to see instances of it?
* Interviews with the cast members and writers,
* Q&A's at cons - posted on Youtube,
* fan reports from the Cons,
* commentary on DVD's, and outtakes.
* Footage of various scenes released on the internet
* Bronze Beta/Whedonesque discussions with the writers
* Things the writers said on the Angel's Soul Board
* Fans who knew cast members and crew members personally
It's out there. And not hard for you to find.
Where you won't find it : in any of the television series, films, comics.
Whedon never wrote things by himself - all of his art was collaborative. Comics, television, and film are all without exception collaborative art forms. You can't really tell a director/writer is an ass merely by watching or reading their work. Even people who create work by themselves - you can't tell.
Anymore than you can tell that your boss is abusive by the products you create or from their behavior towards you. And from your perspective? Your boss could be lovely, and you adore them, but your coworkers may be going home each night in tears - and you are oblivious. Are you enabling it? I don't know. I've asked myself that question so many times. I don't think so. It's not Alyson Hannigan's or Amy Acker's fault that Whedon loved her and treated others abysmally. Any more than it is Chidi's fault that our boss loves him. Like I said above, I have a boss now, who some people love to pieces, and others despise. He's like two different people. My father called him Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde.
****
How can you stop this behavior in the work place? Well, you don't do it by deciding that you hate Buffy/Angel and all things Whedon now, and boycott it and bully anyone who loves it into submission - that's kind of counter-productive and it doesn't help any of us who have survived toxic work environments or are still surviving them. (Actually Buffy got me through a toxic work environment. The Buffy fandom helped me survive it - ironic, but true.)
First, open your eyes to it. See it for what it is and try to stand up to it. Which is really hard. But if you aren't the target and the boss likes you - than it is imperative that you be the one to try to do something about it. What would have happened if someone had done that with Whedon? If one of his friends pulled him aside and said, you know, Joss, you are a great guy, but this is inappropriate - and you are hurting this person - could we maybe not do that?
It is why we have unions and it is important to support unions - as frustrating as they can be, they do protect people from evil bosses. It's why I'm in one. Unions wouldn't exist if this behavior didn't exist. My boss can scream at me, but he can't fire me, and he can't obviously take away work. And he did promote me. Eventually.
It's why there's a Screen Actors Guild. In the old days - or the "studio system" - actors were treated like cattle. And even called that by directors and studio execs. They had no choices. Judy Garland was literally destroyed by the studio system. Want to see the effects of a toxic work environment? Watch the film "Judy".
William Goldman talked about the toxic set experiences he had in his books, as does Carrie Fisher in the Princess Diaries (Lucas was not an easy man to work with), and Shelly Duvall about Kubrick. No one was quite as bad as Alfred Hitchcock. Hitchcock kind of makes the rest look rather nice by comparison.
It's also important to understand that it goes across industries. And is not relegated to just one.
I had a boss who told me once that I was didn't stroke his ego enough and make him feel good about himself. This was in 2001, shortly after 9/11, about two months later.
I was in tears at the time - because he'd ripped me to shreds. On one hand he told me I was a strategic genius and the smartest person in the company, and too aggress Told me that I was too aloof. That I wasn't kind in the halls. That I didn't say hello enough. On and on.
I remember responding to him : You are my boss. I am the employee. You have the power in this relationship, not me. It is not my job to make you feel good about yourself or support you, it's the opposite way around. I'm not paid to be your cheerleader.
Several months later, when he tried to do it again, I told him: I know what you did. I know you hired a woman to take over my job, and lied to me. I know you paid her far more than I was making, and pretended that she was my associate when you wanted her to force me out. I know this because she told me and your behavior has supported it.
He stared at me and then said: She told you that?
Me: Yes.
Boss: I'm glad I fired her.
Me: I have done a good job. You have nothing on me. And I know you lied to me. I think we are done here.
Ten months later, with the support of friends, family, and folks in the Buffy fandom, I quit that job and was unemployed for 23 months. In the intervening time - I took a few Human Resources classes at NYU School of Business and Continuing Education. They would mention human resources violations and say, has anyone experienced this? Up went my hand. My hand went up for every single violation mentioned. They'd ask me to describe it. I did in detail. They'd stare at me. Finally they asked, what company was this?
The HW Wilson Company, a Library Reference Publishing Company in the Bronx.
Over 100 years old. It was sold about ten years after I left it, by which time I was working in my current postion and making a lot more money, and with better benefits and protections. While the Boss was admittedly mercurial and screamed at me often - somewhat like the first boss I had at Wilson, who used to scream at me for twenty minutes once a month. I'd gotten so used to Lewicky, that was his name, screaming his head off at me - that I didn't quite notice when the next boss - who took over when Lewicky left, was trying to do the same thing. Lewicky was nice, kind of creepy at times, but nice - his bark was worse than his bite. BOSS at current company, who I have reported to for 14 years now, also likes to yell at me - but his bark is also worse than his bite. But I'd be lying to you if I said it didn't have side-effects.
I've high blood pressure. I've struggled with weight over the years. I've been in and out of counseling. And I shake - it's an inherited essential tremor - but it is worse than my mother's or brother's. And when people yell at me or get me really upset, I shake so badly I can't type.
I also jump when anyone comes behind me and am easily startled. And I have issues with authority figures - I don't trust them, and I tend to question them.
People at my work place see me as the toughest person on the floor. I will yell back. I will hold my own. When current boss tried to bully me about my shaking and inability to hold eye contact with him - I questioned him and gave him information on my essential tremor. When he ripped into me for it, I told him that he was bullying me and I'd been through it before and to stop. We got into a fight about it.
I am the type of person who will go up to a bully and call them one to their face. But I'm also careful. I know the laws. There are no bullying laws in the State of New York - I know I researched it. If I had sued the Wilson Company, I would have lost.
Proving serial bullying is impossible. And getting people to back you up? Even more so. People take sides. And they are scared. No one at Wilson backed me up. My close friend at the time? Refused to acknowledge it was happening "directly" - but ten years later, she told me it was and apologized.
I took my father's advice and left with my integrity intact. I'm proud of that. I didn't hurt the company in any way. In fact - everyone who came into my position after I left, sang my praises, they loved me. I'd made their job easier. And the company who bought Wilson out - loved my work product and praised me. And my co-workers missed me - because no one could quite replace me.
The evil boss? Michael Schulze was his name. He left the company in disgrace. One year after I left, he embarrassed himself at the American Library Association Conference - he was drunk. The man was an alcoholic and bi-polar. He was mentally ill. See, people are more than one thing.
He had troubles getting a job after that.
Schulze looked just like Ricky Gervais in the British version of The Office. Which is why I couldn't watch that show, nor could my co-workers who worked under him. It triggered us.
I tell you this story to try to get across how prevalent this is. Joss Whedon, unfortunately, is not the exception, he's the rule. And he was created by the toxic society he lives in. A society, that like it or not, we are all responsible for creating and contributing to.
The job he had prior to show-running Buffy was Roseanne, which was considered at that time openly toxic. Roseanne fired writers every week. And it's not just show business. It is every single work environment in our world. It's every government. Every ruling body.
I am learning to hate the behavior not the people. The best thing about stories - is they show us how to do that and why. It's so easy to hate the people - requires less work. Hating the behavior requires more work, I think. It requires us to see past the behavior to the person inside. Most people are like Whedon and current Boss - they are in a way Dr. Jekyll's and Mr Hyde's. Capable of wonderful things and horrible ones, often at the same time.
Finally... A partial defense of Joss Whedon and Harmful Creators
I have issues with social media - because it weaponizes things. But with no real proof. And a lot of vagueness. When requested for more clarity or information - they refuse to provide it.
People on Whedonesque call it blaming the victim, but I don't see any of these people as victims. They are all wealthy, they are not sick with COVID, they are not in the hospital, and they are employed.
And what happened - happened twenty years ago. They didn't report it.
Until now - when it helped Ray Fisher.
So, do I believe there was a toxic work environment? Yes. But, I don't think how they handled it is any better. We need to stop using social media to destroy people. And, he makes some good points.
no subject
Date: 2021-02-27 12:55 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2021-02-27 01:28 pm (UTC)I can only speak for what I've learned - which is holding onto to verbal or physical abuse, hurts no one but us. What we are doing when we hold onto it is giving the person who abused us power. And the longer we hold onto it - the more power we give them over us. The more important they become.
In some cases the abuse may be temporary, it what lasted an hour? A minute? In others? It lasts years. I suspect Michelle was in some ways more protected - being 15 years of age - but she most likely suffered three years of abuse. In my case with my abusive boss, two years. Current workplace? 14 years.
But once I let go of it - and realized it wasn't about me, it was about them, and they had no real power over me, what they thought in no way affected or defined me, and I did not require their validation or support. In the case of the boss - yes, they had power over my job, but I had power over how I chose to react.
I can't change other people, I can't change what they say or do, I can only change how I react to them. And how I deal with it.
I choose to let it go, learn from the abuse, and try not to do the same.
It may not look like it from the above story - but I've gotten past Michael Schulze. He's paid, because the Universe will sooner or later throw you on the opposite side of every single argument you've had...as a fun teaching moment. Joss Whedon has also paid - now. He's now on the opposite side - and learning how painful words can be.
And I've learned to let go of it. But what I had to do to let go of it - is to forgive myself for holding onto it, and forgive myself for putting myself in that position, and forgive myself for not dealing with it better. And to realize that other's opinions on it - don't matter and aren't important. And that it happened in the past, and has no power over me now. Michael Schulze is long gone, he may be alive or dead, I don't know - but he has no power over me, and never did. And holding onto that pain and hurt - was hurting no one but me. It was up to me to let go of it, and I only share in the hopes that others can learn from it and do the same.
no subject
Date: 2021-02-27 02:49 pm (UTC)I don't spend any real time thinking about these guys (of course they were) because I left those environments long ago and there's no reason for me to re-live that stuff.
Honestly, I have a lot of respect for SMG's ability to handle all this stuff at a young age and put it behind her for the sake of the show.
no subject
Date: 2021-02-27 07:28 pm (UTC)I've learned that it is best not to. My biggest difficulty was learning how to forgive myself - and that's most likely why I held on to it for as long as I did. I blamed myself for what happened, when had absolutely nothing to do with me - and it wasn't my fault.
I think that Charisma did much the same thing - she blamed herself. But it had very little to do with her.
But no, holding onto it does no good. It's best to let go of it.
Honestly, I have a lot of respect for SMG's ability to handle all this stuff at a young age and put it behind her for the sake of the show.
I've grown to respect her as well - in that regard. I think she's a tad narcissistic at times or maybe just vaine or exhibitionist? My god the woman posts a lot of selfies on Instagram.
I don't blame her at all about Whedon. Although, she was not the easiest person to work with, I think part of that may have been due to the atmosphere on the set at the time.
no subject
Date: 2021-02-27 07:33 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2021-02-28 01:17 am (UTC)The environment has changed - actors are executive producers now on their shows, which means they have say in how the set is run etc. I remember reading that Michael Landon's shows were always nice places to work. He was an actor on Bonazana, and learned from the experience - and hired the same people. If someone was nasty or didn't get along with others - they weren't necessarily fired outright, but they weren't invited back either. Jeff Kober who was a guest star on Whedon's shows, and so many other series, said in an interview that one of the best sets and shows he ever worked on was Highway to Heaven - because of Michael Landon, who was a great guy to work for.
So not all of them are horrible. And I think SMG discovered that Robin Williams ran a good set with the Crazy Ones.
no subject
Date: 2021-02-27 07:56 pm (UTC)This stood out to me because I remember in an Angel commentary during S3 that David Fury and another writer were talking about an anonymous actress who could neither laugh nor run convincingly, so they made her do both. It seemed pretty clear to me they meant Charisma.
The discussion about Trachtenberg seems particularly eyebrow raising, since her mother was on the set and one wonders where she or another guardian were when the incident with Joss happened. But mostly because the issue was verbal. I mean, it could still be a very gross incident even without being physical. But if what she meant was abusive behavior rather than sexually inappropriate behavior, then that was very misleading and didn't make her any different from anyone else on the set.
Also, I am not surprised that so many other people were circumspect in their support for Charisma because sooo many people could get swept up in this given all the rumors about behavior on set. I noticed you mentioned before that the person she was having an affair with was Greenwalt. What's more it's rumored that he was having an affair with both her and SMG at the same time. I feel quite sure neither did with Joss which may well be a reason why he had difficult dealings with them and looks particularly bad for him since that could look retaliatory. But it's also not a great look for the actors and I notice Greenwalt's role has been left out of this considering he was actually the showrunner on Angel and was around for all of this (as Scovell's quote makes clear).
The suggestion that Joss left The Nevers because of the investigation seems more to me that it was the final straw rather than the root cause, and might have been a precaution on HBO's part for liability and marketing purposes. What has yet to be revealed is why he left Batgirl. I remember not long after it was announced and he shifted to the JLA movie that there was a suggestion that the Batgirl issue was a smokescreen for his appearance in the WB camp prior to his being officially assigned to the JL reshoots. Given that nothing ever came of it and to date there's nothing more about the film being made, I tend to believe that. But if not, there is definitely an untold story there as well.
no subject
Date: 2021-02-27 11:02 pm (UTC)This stood out to me because I remember in an Angel commentary during S3 that David Fury and another writer were talking about an anonymous actress who could neither laugh nor run convincingly, so they made her do both. It seemed pretty clear to me they meant Charisma.
Interesting - because I remember that same commentary on a Buffy S5 DVD - it was I think the episode in which Dawn popped up? Or it may have been a Buffy S4. Pretty certain it was the later with Gellar giggling in the kitchen.
Fury stated that Sarah hated to be made to laugh on camera so he loved making her laugh. Also she had problems running well on screen - which they struggled with.
Seriously, those writers were sadistic assholes. Over the years my respect for the professional writing profession has diminished steadily - so many of them are egotistical, narcissistic, sadistic assholes. God. I don't know what it is about that profession...maybe its imposter syndrome, or that they spend a bit too much time alone in their heads? I don't know.
I remember a story that made me cringe in 2003 - one of my fandom friends knew folks who worked on the crew of Buffy, and had even visited the set. They told me that Marsters was very upset about the attempted rape scene in Seeing Red. And felt betrayed by the writers. He walked off the set. And Gellar had to talk him into doing the scene and not quitting. I don't know how true it is. But he said, "I made the mistake of making friends with the writers and I told them things about my personal life and I feel they used it against me." Apparently someone very close to him had been brutally raped when he was younger. A family member, not sure who, and he told them about it and what happened. And how he won't do rape scenes. It's the one thing he refuses to do. He turns down scripts that involve it. And he won't watch movies or television or anything with it. He told them that.
The writers knew this and did it anyway. That always bothered me. And Espenson states later at a Q&A, we used to work hard to find stuff to make you do - or challenge you - to see what your limits were, it was like a game. And Marsters looks at her, and shakes his head, laughing nervously.
I mean that threw the actor into a nervous breakdown, he almost committed suicide. And went into therapy over it. WTH? And it was a horrible scene. Jarring. Felt out of sync with the rest of the show. And completely unnecessary. Also lazy writing - they could have gotten the same results doing something different. But no, they had to be experimental and be shocking! It's an example of toxicity right there. And it explains his comment about how he supports the others, and yes it was a toxic work environment.
Television writers can be sadistic assholes.
The discussion about Trachtenberg seems particularly eyebrow raising, since her mother was on the set and one wonders where she or another guardian were when the incident with Joss happened. But mostly because the issue was verbal. I mean, it could still be a very gross incident even without being physical. But if what she meant was abusive behavior rather than sexually inappropriate behavior, then that was very misleading and didn't make her any different from anyone else on the set.
The discussion that caused a nasty fight to breakout on the Whedon Studies Association FB Board - was about this. I was trying to make the point you just did here - and got attacked by self-righteous bullies, who should know better. Granted I wasn't quite as articulate. Nor was the original poster in the group. But it was easy enough to infer. And it got nasty.
I think MT should have either done what Marsters did - or Caulfield, which was just echo Gellar's post. Instead she makes a very vague comment - that alludes to sexual abuse, which people worry over far more than verbal abuse. I mean everyone has had a teacher yell at them in school.
And I agree - why wasn't her mother or legal guardian in the room? You don't leave a minor alone with a show-runner. Also why didn't the mother report the actions on set as inappropriate for her daughter? She is accountable for allowing it to happen and not doing anything to stop it - right?
I found it interesting that she refused to further clarify. And when she made her initial statement, her only clarification was that rule - clearly not realizing that it is a standard union rule for most television shows - and confused people. I tried to defend her on her instagram post, and many of the detractors - attacking her - pretty much were upset about the vagueness.
I get the desire to do it on social media - but I think they forget it is akin to taking out a front page ad in the NY Times.
I noticed you mentioned before that the person she was having an affair with was Greenwalt. What's more it's rumored that he was having an affair with both her and SMG at the same time. I feel quite sure neither did with Joss which may well be a reason why he had difficult dealings with them and looks particularly bad for him since that could look retaliatory. But it's also not a great look for the actors and I notice Greenwalt's role has been left out of this considering he was actually the showrunner on Angel and was around for all of this (as Scovell's quote makes clear).
I remember reading online in fan web sites and the ACIN News - now Bleeding Cool News, way back in 1998/99 - how everyone was dating each other on the set of Buffy. And how David Boreanze's marriage fell apart - because he possibly had an affair with SMG. I know SMG hated CC, and Julie Benze hated Hannigan. I willing to bet that Julie had an affair with Whedon. She was older - in her late 20s early 30s. Charisma also was older - about same age as David B. I did not know Gellar had an affair with Greenwalt. Marsters dated Harmony, but that was it. Dusku and Trachenberg both came on to Marsters, but he gently dissuaded them both, pissing off Dusku. Brendan may have had an affair with CC, it's not clear. But this is mainly guesses. But I agree, there were problems on that set.
Benson's post was very clear on that - "It was a toxic work environment". Indicating it was not just Whedon, but she held him accountable.
And that is why the others aren't saying anything. At all. The one's who spoke up - don't have anything to hide. And they haven't clarified. Marsters won't come forward beyond that - he got into trouble with the fandom over a dumb song. And is in the middle of a divorce. Gellar is much the same. (And honestly she was no Saint on that set. Half the cast hated her by the end of S7, although I think most have forgiven her by now.)
They also all said that leaving Buffy felt like "graduating" from high school. Which is not a nice thing to say about a workplace, if you think about it. Particularly a workplace during a show about the horrors of high school.
The suggestion that Joss left The Nevers because of the investigation seems more to me that it was the final straw rather than the root cause, and might have been a precaution on HBO's part for liability and marketing purposes. What has yet to be revealed is why he left Batgirl. I remember not long after it was announced and he shifted to the JLA movie that there was a suggestion that the Batgirl issue was a smokescreen for his appearance in the WB camp prior to his being officially assigned to the JL reshoots. Given that nothing ever came of it and to date there's nothing more about the film being made, I tend to believe that. But if not, there is definitely an untold story there as well.
The timing of the whole Batgirl thing is interesting.
A couple of things happened around the same time in 2016-2017.
Age of Ultron was not considered a success in 2016. Exhausted he leaves, only to break the news that he is now with WB writing Batgirl. (WB was the site of the failed Wonder Woman script - which he worker his ass off on then gave up and walked away. Because it didn't work - way back in 2006.)
Anyhow, in 2017 - it's announced that Snyder is leaving JL and handpicked Whedon to take over (which is a lie, apparently, but we didn't know that then.)
That summer or right after that announcement. Someone leaks Whedon's WW script to wide spread fan derision.
Then, in October 2017 - Kai Cole announces she's divorcing Whedon and reveals what a complete sexist asshole he is in a guest blog post. Her allegations are rather vague. And his response is equally vague.
Then, it is announced that he is leaving Batgirl.
Then, JL is released with bad reviews and is a bomb. (I saw the movie and it wasn't that bad. I know people who actually loved it.)
Very interesting time line of events. I think someone was sabotaguing Whedon behind the scenes or he finally hit a wall - and the new group which loved Zack Snyder hated him, and wanted to take him down.
But it is interesting how Whedon's career takes a 190 degree turn, and all this nasty stuff about him comes out right around the time he takes on and kind of fails at Justice League.
no subject
Date: 2021-02-28 06:36 pm (UTC)I imagine in Hollywood, it's probably even worse. Look at how many actresses get stuck with the "difficult" label, whether fairly or unfairly, it has a negative impact on their careers. Look at two so-called difficult actresses: Shannon Doherty and Katherine Heigl. While I am not a fan of either, it's hard to avoid how the press has referred to both of them as difficult. If you look at Heigl's wikipedia page, there's discussion about the two incidents that got her stuck with the label. Producers, directors and studios can punish actors and others by calling them difficult when they make allegations of inappropriate behaviour on a set. And being stuck with that label can often ruin a younger person's career. It goes from being between you, the boss and HR to being made public. Even the first reports about Ray Fisher came out, the studio was trying to label him in terms of being difficult.
And then add in social media, it makes it even worse. Not knowing the full story, fans tend to focus on what rumors/gossip we know and conflate it into something it's not.
It's becoming clearer and clearer that Whedon should not be in a position of a direct boss. Does that mean he should never be allowed to create something for TV Or film again? No, I don't think it does. DOes that mean he should never be allowed to produce or direct something? Not necessarily. I think what the larger picture is that Hollywood seems to be rife with situations that allow for toxic work places to grow and flourish and that perhaps the industry should review their processes to prevent it from happening. I find in too many industries, people are promoted to leadership roles but with no proper guidance on how to be an actual leader. Some people are great at it, while others aren't. I think that a huge part of the problem is that companies, regardless of the industry, are more willing to allow a toxic boss to continue as long as they produce results.
no subject
Date: 2021-02-28 10:03 pm (UTC)I think what a lot of people don't seem to get is that you can't just go to HR and make a complaint about somone when the only concrete thing you have is your feelings. HR needs concrete examples. And even if they try to talk to other people about what they may have witnessed, there's a trend to down play and sadly blame the victirm because of the fear of retribution.
No, you really can't. For exactly those reasons stated above. I tried in the first workplace I encountered it in - and found out rather quickly that my only option was to resign with my integrity intact. If I did anything else - I could find it impossible to get work in the future and be put on the blacklist. And I was working for a Library Reference Publisher, who eventually got acquired and went out of business.
And part of the problem - is people who decide to weaponize social media to do it. Weaponizing social media doesn't always work to your advantage. You have to really know what you are doing and have some backing.
Fisher and Charisma - were lucky, or that was well coordinated effort among a large group of people who agreed to come forward at the same time in support to achieve a specific goal, and with enough folks behind them - knowing there wouldn't be retribution. Plus it was 20 years ago for most of them, and they were all careful about what they said, and none of them agreed to be interviewed further. I'd say someone was instructing them on what to do there.
(They did achieve something positive by it - The Nevers replaced Whedon with a British female writer who is a feminist and activist for women's rights, she was already working on the series. And they replaced Whedon and Snyder on the DC films with Ta-Neshi Coats - slated to write Superman, with JJ Abrahams producing. Not sure what it means, but it is something.)
Look at how many actresses get stuck with the "difficult" label, whether fairly or unfairly, it has a negative impact on their careers. Look at two so-called difficult actresses: Shannon Doherty and Katherine Heigl. While I am not a fan of either, it's hard to avoid how the press has referred to both of them as difficult.
Yeah, I agree on that. I may not be a fan of either - I think there was more to both stories. It happens a lot.
Carrie Fisher discusses it in her bios. And so have other film actresses. Heigle had a problem with the writing on Grey's and the cast dynamics. That set had problems from what I've seen in various articles here and there. But, all do. I mean we're always going to have issues with co-workers. But on a Hollywood set - it's usually dialed up a few notches, due to sex scenes, long hours, retakes, etc. There's a reason they are paid as much as they are.
I don't think it should have had the effect it appeared to have on her career. But on the other hand, it may not be the cause - so much as Heigle's bad luck in choosing film roles? Also, not helped by the fact that she followed up Grey's with a really bad shooting experience on Knocked Up.
And then add in social media, it makes it even worse. Not knowing the full story, fans tend to focus on what rumors/gossip we know and conflate it into something it's not.
Yep. And Hollywood has always loved to gossip. And the audience even loves it more.
It is really easy to misunderstand gossip or conflate it. And you're right social media makes it even worse - because with social media - you can spread gossip and conflate it with a keystroke. It takes minutes for it to go viral.
When Charisma posted her claim about Whedon on Twitter - she might as well have posted it in the middle of Times Square or took out a front page ad in the NY Times. Same with Gellar, MT, and several others. A few fell under the radar. The media is camped out on Twitter. And the media is bored. I mean I saw it because I was bored, so too is the media.
Charisma's was at least - not vague. MT's was - and it set off a bigger firestorm. There were a lot of people brushing off CC's post that couldn't brush off MT's due to her age.
think what the larger picture is that Hollywood seems to be rife with situations that allow for toxic work places to grow and flourish and that perhaps the industry should review their processes to prevent it from happening. I find in too many industries, people are promoted to leadership roles but with no proper guidance on how to be an actual leader. Some people are great at it, while others aren't. I think that a huge part of the problem is that companies, regardless of the industry, are more willing to allow a toxic boss to continue as long as they produce results.
I agree. Cancelling Whedon doesn't help or change the problem. People like to punish folks for stuff, as opposed to doing the harder work - of learning from what happened and trying to prevent a re-occurrence. What needs to happen is laws, rules, regulations and measures need to be put in place to make it harder for companies to allow the toxic boss to continue. And somehow convince the company to look at the employees not just the results to determine the boss' effectiveness.
I don't know - I tried to figure out how to fight it in 2001-2002, then again later. But I've no answers. If I did - I'd apply them to my current work environment. The nice thing about the pandemic - is I only have to deal with the boss once a week. I don't have to see him that often. OR interact with him in person that much. But I honestly don't know how I could change my workplace - I'm told it is changing, but I don't see it. And the problem with stating anything - is people will accuse me, that's what they do - blame the victim or flip it. We're also in a contentious environment right now where it is has become increasingly difficult to have rational adult discussions with people who strongly disagree with us.
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Date: 2021-03-01 07:35 pm (UTC)With Heigl and Doherty, they are two exmaples of women who have been labelled as difficult. I am well aware that there are two sides to their stories. what gets me is that when the entertainment media talk about them, there is almost always a reference to their past. I beleive Heigl has spoken out about hwo being labelled as difficult had impacted her career to some degree. Doherty not so much. But it is telling that we hear more about difficult actresses more than we do about actors. Thank goodness for Carrie Fisher and her outspokeness. I think more people need to read her books just to learn how toxic Hollywood is, especialy for women. I was horried when I read in one of her books that they wanted her to lose weight for the first Star Wars movie when she's was so tiny to begin with. I think that a lot of people turn a blind eye to how toxic Hollywood has been and continues to be. I think that Fisher got away with so much later on in her career because of who she was and because she didn't give a damn.
I think adding social media into the mix of Hollywood and their rumour mill, has made an extremely toxic environment even worse. The problem with gossip and rumour is that we don't know what is true and what is not. Throw in the idea of cancel culture, and it's even more vile.
I have no problem with people wanting to cancel Whedon based on the fact that he's a crappy boss. I don't agree with it, but if people think that cancelling him may lead to a change in the way Hollywood runs the sets of TV shows and films, then fine. But people aren't trying to cancel Whedon because he's a bad boss. They are trying to conflate the situation and claim that he is either a misogynist (due to Carpenter's allegations), and/or a racist (due to Fisher's allegations), or because he must be guilty of sexual misconduct because look at his Wonder Woman script, look how Buffy, Angel, Firefly and Dollhouse all dealt with topics of consent. Or he must be brought down because Trachtenberg had a clause that didn't allow her to be alone with him. (I saw someone trying to equate that vague comment of her's to sexual misconduct because look at longingly Angel (a 200+ year old fictional vampire) gazes at a 15-year old Buffy. Even though SMG wasn't 15 years old when that scene was filmed.) Or he must have committed sexual misconduct because look at his ex-wife's essay, which didn't cause a bunch of actresses to come forth to make allegations against him.) And no one is really talking about how maybe we should be looking at the studio that allowed him to get away with this behaviour. And people who try to point out that being a bad boss doesn't make you a misogynist, racist or whatever, they get shot down on some forums because people want to tear Whedon apart for whatever reason. They don't want to accept the fact that Whedon did not work in a vacuum, that he handled a lot of tropes the way everyeone else was dealing with them, and so on.
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Date: 2021-03-01 11:44 pm (UTC)Oh, they came forward - as far back as early 2020, the media just didn't pick up on it. Momoa did when Fisher first raised the allegations, and Gail Gadot admitted she had issues as well in August 2020 - long before Charisma got involved. But it was kind of buried in non-mainstream entertainment publications. Most of the mainstream press doesn't care about an old super hero flick that bombed in 2017.
But Charisma's statement about Buffy and Angel - did grab their notice, partly due to timing - it was February, the press was bored. (They weren't bored in August - hello Election, etc.) Partly due to the fact that more journalists have seen Buffy than Justice League.
I've looked at the IMBD resumes for most of the actors and Whedon, Whedon doesn't have that much power any longer. WB - yes, Whedon - no. If he ever really did. He's never really been able to break out of franchise or cult works. He's not mainstream, and he's not quite the auteur of some cult favs. Also the one's who said the most - have the least credits to their names. So most likely have hit a point in which they don't care any longer.
Carrie Fisher had hit that point finally. Or she'd never have written about her highly inappropriate and painful romantic fling with Harrison Ford on the set of Star Wars, where she was about 18-19, and he was 32 and married. (She fell hard for him, he thought of it as a fling and didn't realize she wasn't older and more experienced. He also thought Star Wars was a B movie and it was unlikely they'd see each other again. That's all in the book - Princess Diaries.) Then she tragically died, before he could respond. Now he can't. They plagued him with questions about it for over a year - which he couldn't easily avoid, because he was busy promoting a movie at a time. (She did inform him that she was doing it - but he ignored her which came back to bite him.) Gotta love Carrie Fisher - she had a knack with timing.
With Heigl and Doherty, they are two exmaples of women who have been labelled as difficult. I am well aware that there are two sides to their stories. what gets me is that when the entertainment media talk about them, there is almost always a reference to their past. I beleive Heigl has spoken out about hwo being labelled as difficult had impacted her career to some degree. Doherty not so much.
I kind of swung around discussing this in my last response - but Dougherty's career was pretty much ended by Alyssa Milano and the problems on Charmed. Tori Spelling and Jennie Garth kind of killed her career on 90210. But it didn't help them either, all three have had very little to no careers after those series ended. But the on-set feuding probably hurt all of them. Shame about Dougherty - I actually found the actress to be pretty good, I don't know her background. But I did find her interesting to watch and dropped Charmed when she left it. Milano grates on my ever-living-nerve. ;-)
Heigle - didn't too badly. Actually she did better than Dougherty. But her problem was on-set feuding. But that she pissed off the writers of the show that she was on - for stating the writing wasn't up to par, and rejecting her emmy nomination. (She's since apologized and regretted it. But Rhimes holds a grudge.) Her other problem with Rhimes was over an altercation with Isiah Washington and Partick Dempsey, that turned really nasty and ended up with Washington leaving the show - Washington also had troubles coming back from that. Her other problem was with Knocked Up - where she refused to take Seth Rogan's sexist direction on a few things. (I've never blamed her for that - I saw that movie, it was disgusting. I hate that movie. She was right. Judd Apatow's humor was sexist.)
But she has survived it. Actually she's done better than Charisma, Amber, Trachenberg and Doughtery. She has a new show on Netflix at the moment - Firefly Lane. So I don't think what happened in the past has had lasting effect.
I think adding social media into the mix of Hollywood and their rumour mill, has made an extremely toxic environment even worse. The problem with gossip and rumour is that we don't know what is true and what is not. Throw in the idea of cancel culture, and it's even more vile.
True. Although it's not just Hollywood.
I have no problem with people wanting to cancel Whedon based on the fact that he's a crappy boss. I don't agree with it, but if people think that cancelling him may lead to a change in the way Hollywood runs the sets of TV shows and films, then fine. But people aren't trying to cancel Whedon because he's a bad boss. They are trying to conflate the situation and claim that he is either a misogynist (due to Carpenter's allegations), and/or a racist (due to Fisher's allegations), or because he must be guilty of sexual misconduct because look at his Wonder Woman script, look how Buffy, Angel, Firefly and Dollhouse all dealt with topics of consent. Or he must be brought down because Trachtenberg had a clause that didn't allow her to be alone with him. (I saw someone trying to equate that vague comment of her's to sexual misconduct because look at longingly Angel (a 200+ year old fictional vampire) gazes at a 15-year old Buffy. Even though SMG wasn't 15 years old when that scene was filmed.) Or he must have committed sexual misconduct because look at his ex-wife's essay, which didn't cause a bunch of actresses to come forth to make allegations against him.) And no one is really talking about how maybe we should be looking at the studio that allowed him to get away with this behaviour. And people who try to point out that being a bad boss doesn't make you a misogynist, racist or whatever, they get shot down on some forums because people want to tear Whedon apart for whatever reason.
I agree.
That was what lay at the heart of the fight that broke out on Whedon Studies Association FB Page. A bunch of scholars got furious because they thought the feminist icon they were studying and promoting in their classes had been revealed as a misogynist, pedophile, with racist tendencies. But there's no real proof of that. And the more we tried to get that across the more they dug in their heels.
I think Humans like labels. Or categories. To put everything into a nice neat little box. It makes things neat and tidy, clear-cut. You don't have to think that hard about it, no analysis really required - it's filed away. But life isn't tidy, it's messy, and nothing is clear-cut or black or white, it's gray. People aren't just bad or good, they are both. We don't live in binary world, even though we all like to think we do.
I've fought with fans over their misuse of the word misogyny over the years. "Spike is a misogynist!" No, if he was a misogynist, he wouldn't be trying to help Buffy the whole time. It's more complicated than that. Sorry. Whedon was interested in exploring the dark side of the human psyche - that doesn't make him evil. Did he do some bad things? Yes. But he did good things too. The bad things don't cancel out the good - that's not how it works. (I tried to argue that on Whedon Studies Association and gave up, I got tired of being attacked.)
It is hard to change a closed mind. Once someone is convinced they are right and on the side of the just, there's just no arguing with them. Which is our current problem across the board - I think. And no, social media forums like Twitter and FB don't help.