Deep Thoughts...or Ramblings...before bed
Sep. 7th, 2024 07:32 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
shadowkat1. Without religion would people become more, less, or be equally morally corrupt? (snagged this question from someone else).
I think people define morality differently? Also they have a tendency to confuse the term with knowing the difference between harmful acts and non-harmful acts, which isn't quite the same thing. And often use "morality" as an excuse to hurt others either with their verbal condemnation, physical punishment (discipline), or something else harmful.
Everyone has their own set of morals or moral code. And depending on how you were raised, your culture, your environment, your DNA, etc - it will vary.
I remember years ago having a discussion in live journal regarding "souls" and whether people have one. And along the way, discovered that we did not agree on the definition of a soul. Some saw it in "religious" terms, and being "atheist" or "agnostic" didn't believe in one. Which was confusing to those of us who didn't define it in religious terms but more scientific and perceptive terms. If we don't agree on what the word means or its definition, which happens a lot in the English language, then that's going to be a problem. Anyhow, at one point, someone said: "I'm afraid we don't share the same morals!" And I responded, "well considering we can't agree on the definition of a soul, I seriously doubt we agree on what the word means, let alone share the same ones."
The difficulty with discussing these things with others - is people bring their emotions to the table. Instead of stating what they think, they say what they feel. And that brings the discussion to an abrupt halt. It's difficult to debate feelings. So if you have a "negative emotional" response to a post on the internet or feel really strongly about it? Don't respond to it. It's unlikely to end well. It's hard to be heard - when folks are pissed off.
So, back to the question.
Without religion would people become more, less, or be equally morally corrupt?
The number of horrible things people have done in the name of their so-called religious faith, I've lost count of. A lot of folks use religion as an excuse to hurt others, taking a moral high ground.
Historically? The Pilgrims and Puritans in both Britain and the US hunted down and burned women and men at the stake, along with hanging them for immoral acts, or irreligious practices, or witchcraft. All in the name of their religion.
Also, in the Bible, everyone condemned and slaughtered people in the name of religion. Their belief in whatever - gave them the moral high ground. Hey, we're chosen, we can kill and enslave everyone who isn't. The Romans, Jews, Egyptians, Babylonians, etc were guilty of this. The Bible is a violent book for a religious text. And since the Old Testament, the most violent portion of it, is shared across various religions including Muslim and Jewish and Christian Faiths...
Catholic priests have molested and raped people. The Republican Party is using religion to condemn and hurt people who don't agree with their "moral world view".
And just look at the Middle East? They've been having a "religious" war over that strip of land in Palestine for over 2000 years. All in the name of their religion. They are killing, torturing, raping, and starving people over there - both sides are. There are no good guys in that fight. And that's in the name of religion? Morality?
See? Meanwhile I know people who don't practice any religion, haven't killed anyone, aren't trying to restrict others rights, and wouldn't harm a fly. My niece doesn't practice anything, and she's majoring in environmental conservation and helping indigenous people. She also has spent the last two summers in the National Park Service helping folks.
And my Maternal Grandparents weren't religious at all - but they gave to their family and strangers - helping them. And didn't impose their morality on anyone.
My experiences in life have taught me that religion doesn't make you a kind person. It doesn't make you unkind either. It depends on how you choose to practice religion, and how you choose to practice your own morality.
I learned not to impose mine on others, and to try to be kind. Even to people who have done horrible things. I think it is rather easy to be kind to people who are kind, nice, and haven't done anything horrible that we know of, but it is rather hard to be kind to the ones who have. I try to be kind to both and am not always successful. The world doesn't make it easy.
Heck, people don't make it easy.
2. I liked this post on BlueSky:
"Don't let anyone who hasn't been in your shoes, tell you how to tie your laces."
People were constantly trying to teach me how to tie my laces when I was growing up - to the point in which I was completely confused and had given up on it for a bit. (My dyslexia takes the form of - I see things as if I'm looking in a mirror? My right is always my left. So I have to do a lot of course correcting. I've gotten exceedingly good at it now. It takes less than a second or two now, when back in the day it took a lot longer. But occasionally, I'll get thrown off.) Finally someone, I forget who it was, figured out my problem and instead of saying "take the lace and cross it over the left, look copy what I'm doing..." they wisely told me a story, about a rabbit escaping through a hole, and how to make the bunny ears. They understood how I thought.
I think people presume that we all think the same way? We don't. I figured that out early on, but most people haven't seemed to get the memo? [ I mean two dyslexic's don't even think the same way or have the same issues. I know this because my brother is also dyslexic, but it affected him completely differently and he compensated for it in a completely different way. He has no issues with coordination, telling right from left, or flipping numbers. We do both - misspeak or use the wrong words at times, but he wasn't teased about it. ]
Or worse they think they are smarter than other people - no, you just think differently than they do. It's not better or worse or smarter, it's just different?
Finding people who are like-minded is really hard. I've not really found anyone that thinks like I do. I keep thinking I have, and keep getting disappointed. Maybe no one has? Maybe we're all unique in that way? I don't know - people keep telling me that they've surrounded themselves with like-minded folks.
I've begun to think I never will. It's kind of depressing actually. Although I try to be positive about it? I mean it does the world more interesting and challenging? And I like to figure out how others think, why they think that way, and how to best navigate that so I can connect with them? Sometimes I succeed, mostly I don't. It's just very lonely. I feel at times like a giraffe stumbling amongst wolves.
3. "In a world where you can be anything? Be kind."
Me: working on it. But damn, the world makes it hard sometimes.
4. Talents
I've decided that a facility for language is possibly connected to the ability to sing or play music? The ability to hear the range of sounds and reproduce those sounds accurately upon hearing them - possibly is connected in the brain.
There's a presumption that anyone can learn another language other than the one they were taught as wee child, and listened to from birth. Or the language of their birth (the one we were immersed in from birth or before, assuming consciousness predates birth, and I do not believe nor see any evidence that it does so, and that's a completely different discussion that I really don't want to get into again - been there done that, have the battle scars - so ahem forget that bit).
There's equally a presumption that anyone can learn to sing or can sing.
This is akin to presuming anyone can draw or tell a story. Or garden. Or become an astronaut, a gymnast, or dance ballet.
No.
I know for a fact that not everyone can learn a language other than the one they were immersed in from birth - because my entire immediate family tried and couldn't. We could learn to read it, and possibly write a bit in it. But speak and understand the spoken tongue? No. Why? We couldn't hear and replicate the sounds. In order to wrap one's head around this - you have to first understand that no one thinks alike. We all think differently. We all hear and comprehend music differently. We hear differently. We hear languages differently.
And no, it doesn't have anything to do with how well we can hear. It has to do with how our brains process sounds. I figured that out listening to Barbara Streisand's memoir. She states in her book - a few interesting and informative facts: 1) she has had severe tinnitus in both ears since birth. There's always been a ringing in her ears. She doesn't know what it is like not to have it. 2) she doesn't enjoy listening to music, and considers it work - she appreciates it, and can naturally process and reproduce the sounds in her head, but listening to it for pleasure...she doesn't tend to do. 3) she has never taken a voice lesson. Actually she did take one once - and left after one lesson because she didn't find it all that helpful and only did it because she was curious if it would help her.
Those three facts tell me - that the ability to sing is a natural god given talent, it is not something that can be learned. You can be trained to do it better - but you have got to have a brain that can hear and reproduce the sounds.
If you can mimic someone, or do accents, or different voices? You can sing.
Seth McFarland who is an excellent mimic and can do multiple voices, can sing beautifully. His voice is like velvet. Streisand can sing because she sees how in her head, she can hear the sound and reproduce it perfectly. She listens to a song, and can reproduce it. The Beatles could do the same thing - they couldn't read music, but their brains could understand and reproduce the sounds, and play with them.
I can't sing. My niece can't sing. She took Chinese - got an A- in it - but was told that she needed work on the oral portion - she couldn't reproduce the sounds. Same with French - she got a B+ because she couldn't reproduce the sounds. Neither can I. I could read and write in it in school - but I couldn't reproduce any of the sounds or understand them. At all. My father took Russian, he had a Russian Lit minor, and Russian Language, with a History major - and he could maybe do a few phrases but poorly. He couldn't hear and reproduce the sounds correctly. Mother took German - she even had German spoken around her growing up - same problem, couldn't reproduce the sounds. My brother took Spanish - he can't do it either. He also took Trumpet, Guitar and Cello - and nope. Nor can he sing. Nor can my niece sing, nor could my father, nor can I. The only one who can kind of sing without someone telling her to shut up is my mother. She sang in church, the rest of us did not.
But, with the exception of my mother, we could all draw. It comes naturally. We also are all good writers. We think visually, and can see and reproduce what we see from memory. And when we hear music - we see images, not sounds. The music is more of a visual experience for me than an auditory one, if that makes sense? It's why I prefer lyrics. It's not that I don't hear the sounds, I do, it's that I interpret them differently.
And how I interpret sound is why I cannot sing, play a musical instrument or learn another language well enough to understand and speak it.
I don't know if I've persuaded anyone? People tend to stubbornly stick to what they think is true based on their limited personal experiences. (ie. "I and everyone I know can sing or learn a language? Why can't you??" Well, clearly not everyone you know, because I can't. Might want to rephrase that.) I've lost count of the number of people who have condemned others like myself for not learning more than one language, as if it were as easy as breathing or even possible. As if we didn't try. There's a reason I'm surrounded by people from other countries - who barely can understand or speak English, or can't at all. I've gotten used to it - and I feel empathy for them. I also get frustrated at times, but I remind myself that I'm lucky, I live in a country where everyone for the most part speaks the language of my birth. And no, that's unlikely to change in the next twenty to thirty years.
I think people define morality differently? Also they have a tendency to confuse the term with knowing the difference between harmful acts and non-harmful acts, which isn't quite the same thing. And often use "morality" as an excuse to hurt others either with their verbal condemnation, physical punishment (discipline), or something else harmful.
Everyone has their own set of morals or moral code. And depending on how you were raised, your culture, your environment, your DNA, etc - it will vary.
I remember years ago having a discussion in live journal regarding "souls" and whether people have one. And along the way, discovered that we did not agree on the definition of a soul. Some saw it in "religious" terms, and being "atheist" or "agnostic" didn't believe in one. Which was confusing to those of us who didn't define it in religious terms but more scientific and perceptive terms. If we don't agree on what the word means or its definition, which happens a lot in the English language, then that's going to be a problem. Anyhow, at one point, someone said: "I'm afraid we don't share the same morals!" And I responded, "well considering we can't agree on the definition of a soul, I seriously doubt we agree on what the word means, let alone share the same ones."
The difficulty with discussing these things with others - is people bring their emotions to the table. Instead of stating what they think, they say what they feel. And that brings the discussion to an abrupt halt. It's difficult to debate feelings. So if you have a "negative emotional" response to a post on the internet or feel really strongly about it? Don't respond to it. It's unlikely to end well. It's hard to be heard - when folks are pissed off.
So, back to the question.
Without religion would people become more, less, or be equally morally corrupt?
The number of horrible things people have done in the name of their so-called religious faith, I've lost count of. A lot of folks use religion as an excuse to hurt others, taking a moral high ground.
Historically? The Pilgrims and Puritans in both Britain and the US hunted down and burned women and men at the stake, along with hanging them for immoral acts, or irreligious practices, or witchcraft. All in the name of their religion.
Also, in the Bible, everyone condemned and slaughtered people in the name of religion. Their belief in whatever - gave them the moral high ground. Hey, we're chosen, we can kill and enslave everyone who isn't. The Romans, Jews, Egyptians, Babylonians, etc were guilty of this. The Bible is a violent book for a religious text. And since the Old Testament, the most violent portion of it, is shared across various religions including Muslim and Jewish and Christian Faiths...
Catholic priests have molested and raped people. The Republican Party is using religion to condemn and hurt people who don't agree with their "moral world view".
And just look at the Middle East? They've been having a "religious" war over that strip of land in Palestine for over 2000 years. All in the name of their religion. They are killing, torturing, raping, and starving people over there - both sides are. There are no good guys in that fight. And that's in the name of religion? Morality?
See? Meanwhile I know people who don't practice any religion, haven't killed anyone, aren't trying to restrict others rights, and wouldn't harm a fly. My niece doesn't practice anything, and she's majoring in environmental conservation and helping indigenous people. She also has spent the last two summers in the National Park Service helping folks.
And my Maternal Grandparents weren't religious at all - but they gave to their family and strangers - helping them. And didn't impose their morality on anyone.
My experiences in life have taught me that religion doesn't make you a kind person. It doesn't make you unkind either. It depends on how you choose to practice religion, and how you choose to practice your own morality.
I learned not to impose mine on others, and to try to be kind. Even to people who have done horrible things. I think it is rather easy to be kind to people who are kind, nice, and haven't done anything horrible that we know of, but it is rather hard to be kind to the ones who have. I try to be kind to both and am not always successful. The world doesn't make it easy.
Heck, people don't make it easy.
2. I liked this post on BlueSky:
"Don't let anyone who hasn't been in your shoes, tell you how to tie your laces."
People were constantly trying to teach me how to tie my laces when I was growing up - to the point in which I was completely confused and had given up on it for a bit. (My dyslexia takes the form of - I see things as if I'm looking in a mirror? My right is always my left. So I have to do a lot of course correcting. I've gotten exceedingly good at it now. It takes less than a second or two now, when back in the day it took a lot longer. But occasionally, I'll get thrown off.) Finally someone, I forget who it was, figured out my problem and instead of saying "take the lace and cross it over the left, look copy what I'm doing..." they wisely told me a story, about a rabbit escaping through a hole, and how to make the bunny ears. They understood how I thought.
I think people presume that we all think the same way? We don't. I figured that out early on, but most people haven't seemed to get the memo? [ I mean two dyslexic's don't even think the same way or have the same issues. I know this because my brother is also dyslexic, but it affected him completely differently and he compensated for it in a completely different way. He has no issues with coordination, telling right from left, or flipping numbers. We do both - misspeak or use the wrong words at times, but he wasn't teased about it. ]
Or worse they think they are smarter than other people - no, you just think differently than they do. It's not better or worse or smarter, it's just different?
Finding people who are like-minded is really hard. I've not really found anyone that thinks like I do. I keep thinking I have, and keep getting disappointed. Maybe no one has? Maybe we're all unique in that way? I don't know - people keep telling me that they've surrounded themselves with like-minded folks.
I've begun to think I never will. It's kind of depressing actually. Although I try to be positive about it? I mean it does the world more interesting and challenging? And I like to figure out how others think, why they think that way, and how to best navigate that so I can connect with them? Sometimes I succeed, mostly I don't. It's just very lonely. I feel at times like a giraffe stumbling amongst wolves.
3. "In a world where you can be anything? Be kind."
Me: working on it. But damn, the world makes it hard sometimes.
4. Talents
I've decided that a facility for language is possibly connected to the ability to sing or play music? The ability to hear the range of sounds and reproduce those sounds accurately upon hearing them - possibly is connected in the brain.
There's a presumption that anyone can learn another language other than the one they were taught as wee child, and listened to from birth. Or the language of their birth (the one we were immersed in from birth or before, assuming consciousness predates birth, and I do not believe nor see any evidence that it does so, and that's a completely different discussion that I really don't want to get into again - been there done that, have the battle scars - so ahem forget that bit).
There's equally a presumption that anyone can learn to sing or can sing.
This is akin to presuming anyone can draw or tell a story. Or garden. Or become an astronaut, a gymnast, or dance ballet.
No.
I know for a fact that not everyone can learn a language other than the one they were immersed in from birth - because my entire immediate family tried and couldn't. We could learn to read it, and possibly write a bit in it. But speak and understand the spoken tongue? No. Why? We couldn't hear and replicate the sounds. In order to wrap one's head around this - you have to first understand that no one thinks alike. We all think differently. We all hear and comprehend music differently. We hear differently. We hear languages differently.
And no, it doesn't have anything to do with how well we can hear. It has to do with how our brains process sounds. I figured that out listening to Barbara Streisand's memoir. She states in her book - a few interesting and informative facts: 1) she has had severe tinnitus in both ears since birth. There's always been a ringing in her ears. She doesn't know what it is like not to have it. 2) she doesn't enjoy listening to music, and considers it work - she appreciates it, and can naturally process and reproduce the sounds in her head, but listening to it for pleasure...she doesn't tend to do. 3) she has never taken a voice lesson. Actually she did take one once - and left after one lesson because she didn't find it all that helpful and only did it because she was curious if it would help her.
Those three facts tell me - that the ability to sing is a natural god given talent, it is not something that can be learned. You can be trained to do it better - but you have got to have a brain that can hear and reproduce the sounds.
If you can mimic someone, or do accents, or different voices? You can sing.
Seth McFarland who is an excellent mimic and can do multiple voices, can sing beautifully. His voice is like velvet. Streisand can sing because she sees how in her head, she can hear the sound and reproduce it perfectly. She listens to a song, and can reproduce it. The Beatles could do the same thing - they couldn't read music, but their brains could understand and reproduce the sounds, and play with them.
I can't sing. My niece can't sing. She took Chinese - got an A- in it - but was told that she needed work on the oral portion - she couldn't reproduce the sounds. Same with French - she got a B+ because she couldn't reproduce the sounds. Neither can I. I could read and write in it in school - but I couldn't reproduce any of the sounds or understand them. At all. My father took Russian, he had a Russian Lit minor, and Russian Language, with a History major - and he could maybe do a few phrases but poorly. He couldn't hear and reproduce the sounds correctly. Mother took German - she even had German spoken around her growing up - same problem, couldn't reproduce the sounds. My brother took Spanish - he can't do it either. He also took Trumpet, Guitar and Cello - and nope. Nor can he sing. Nor can my niece sing, nor could my father, nor can I. The only one who can kind of sing without someone telling her to shut up is my mother. She sang in church, the rest of us did not.
But, with the exception of my mother, we could all draw. It comes naturally. We also are all good writers. We think visually, and can see and reproduce what we see from memory. And when we hear music - we see images, not sounds. The music is more of a visual experience for me than an auditory one, if that makes sense? It's why I prefer lyrics. It's not that I don't hear the sounds, I do, it's that I interpret them differently.
And how I interpret sound is why I cannot sing, play a musical instrument or learn another language well enough to understand and speak it.
I don't know if I've persuaded anyone? People tend to stubbornly stick to what they think is true based on their limited personal experiences. (ie. "I and everyone I know can sing or learn a language? Why can't you??" Well, clearly not everyone you know, because I can't. Might want to rephrase that.) I've lost count of the number of people who have condemned others like myself for not learning more than one language, as if it were as easy as breathing or even possible. As if we didn't try. There's a reason I'm surrounded by people from other countries - who barely can understand or speak English, or can't at all. I've gotten used to it - and I feel empathy for them. I also get frustrated at times, but I remind myself that I'm lucky, I live in a country where everyone for the most part speaks the language of my birth. And no, that's unlikely to change in the next twenty to thirty years.
no subject
Date: 2024-09-08 07:07 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2024-09-08 07:08 pm (UTC)Audio-processing disorder
Date: 2024-09-08 08:30 am (UTC)I had piano lessons as a child, but for me it was all about hand-eye coordination. See those notes on the page, make these hand movements.You could have blocked my ears up with wax, and it would have made zero difference to my playing. I don't think I knew what a tune was.
My sister, much to everyone's surprise, has managed to learn basic Arabic but she was extremely motivated, and it was ten years for a basic competence. She's also a TEFL teacher, so well versed in language-learning techniques.
Re: Audio-processing disorder
Date: 2024-09-08 07:06 pm (UTC)Also had piano lessons - and the difficulty there was mainly hand-eye coordination. I could play the keys with one hand, and maybe the other, but not the feet at the same time. Drove the teacher crazy - until she begged my mother for both our sakes to stop them. I could sight read, but I couldn't really pick up on whether it was in tune or not.