BTVS/ATS Redux - the mother/son angle

[shadowkat]

Every once and a while someone out there posts a little gem that explains exactly why something I watched, read, or heard captivated me.

Here's the latest - and it's about a series that one would think after all this time would have lost its allure for me, it hasn't and partly for the reasons discussed in selenak's essay on The Fanged Four.

In an essay regarding the Fanged Four or Angel/Spike/Drusilla/Darla of the Buffy and Angel series, selenak discusses how Whedon and his writers ultimately flipped previous television and book models regarding the vampire/gothic genre on their heads. Normally it's the guy who sired everyone. Hence the word "sire" as in patriach or father-figure. Look up the word in the dictionary - according to the American Heritage Dictionary - the first definition is "a father", the next: "form of address for a male superior esp. a king." Whedon in Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Angel the Series uses the word for men and women. Spike to Angel in School Hard: "You were my sire, my yoda" - possibly meaning "father" "king" and "teacher" all wrapped into one. Yet late in the episode "Fool For Love" it was Dru, a female, who "sired" him. Just as in "Angel" it is revealed that it was Darla that sired Angel.

Previously in the gothic tradition - Dracula through Ann Rice and even Forever Knight, the guy does all of the siring, only in a few instances is it a woman. And as selenak points out in his/her essay the most interesting bit is how we regard the incestuous relationships - while our society seems to half accept, even embrace the older male/younger female dynamic, we struggle with the older female/younger male. Marilyn Monroe's song - "My Heart Belongs to Daddy" is considered a sexual turn-on and hot. But how about a guy singing "My Heart Belongs to Mommy?" You never hear it. It squicks us.

Yet, and this is one of the things I adored about the later years of BTVS and ATS and why both series fascinate me - Whedon did something few writers attempt, he paralleled the Daddy/Little Girl and the Mommy/Little Boy relationships. Buffy is shown aching for her missing father in the first three seasons of Buffy, Dru talks all about Daddy - referencing Angel who in some regards takes Buffy's father's place in her heart - he takes her ice skating on her birthday, he visits her at night and tucks her in bed, he acts as a protector, he remains mysterious about his background, etc. On Buffy's seventeenth birthday - when she comes of age, she sleeps with Angel - who up until now has been doing the things her father did. That's when she loses him - the moment they sleep together - which in reality would be what would happen if a girl slept with her father or father-figure. See Lolita, which is heavily referenced in the latter half of the season specifically in the flashback sequences of Becoming - when Angel looks upon Buffy for the first time, in pigtails sucking on a lollipop much as James Mason's Professor looks upon Lolita in the Stanley Kubrick adaptation of the famous novel - where the girl is slightly older than she is in the book, around 16 as opposed to 14.

This bit would not be interesting to me, because I've seen it done before in gothic novels most recently Ann Rice, if it weren't for the fact that the writers decide to do the same thing with the boys in the later half of Angel and Buffy. In S4 Angel Apocalypse Nowish and S7 Buffy Lies My Parents Told Me - Connor, Spike, and Wood clearly have a thing for Mommy. And in effect ache to do the same thing Buffy did with Angel, with dire consequences. Connor sleeps with Cordelia - who is to Connor in some respects what Angel was to Buffy, she's about five years older than him in the scene - 22 to Connor's 17. Angel has the aspect of a 26 year old (even if he is 240 in actuality), she has acted as a mother figure, yet is not his mother physically. She has protected him. And he, like Buffy did with Angel, in some ways sees her as a subsitute but knows deep down she can't be, so like Buffy, the sex does not feel wrong to him even though like Buffy the sex results in dire consequences. The fans at the time this was shown were squicked, none more so than, and this is highly ironic, the B/A shippers. The fact that the writers went there and more to the point underlined the similarities, even to the extent that they mentioned them offhand in interviews and commentary fascinated and intrigued me. Hah! I thought, at last, a television show that does not cater to its fan base, who respects its fan base enough to pull back the curtain and examine something we may not want to see regarding our own attitudes towards gender politics.

Meanwhile over on Buffy, we are told that Spike has repressed feelings for his own mother, which Drusilla, then finally Buffy act as substitutes. He transfers what he felt for her to Buffy, much as Buffy transfers her feelings for her own father to Angel, Riley and finally Spike. Giles and Joyce - the real parental figures on the show remain at a distance, disappearing when the sex crops up. And when the relationship gets too intense or serious, pop up to attempt to break it apart, the voice of reason as it were - first Joyce in Season 3, telling Angel to leave before he destroys Buffy - she is more upfront and less violent in her approach. Trusting Angel to see reason. Giles on the other hand, is under-handed and secretive, he enlists the aid of Wood in an attempt to remove Spike permanently from the scene. But unlike Joyce, Giles fails and Spike stays with Buffy through the end.

With Connor/Cordy and Spike/Buffy we see two different results - both end in death, one the mother/daughter's and one the son/father's. Connor is both father and son in the Cordy/Connor storyline - giving birth to Jasmine who is both his daughter yet also his Queen or sire.
Spike is both father and son in the Buffy/Spike storyline - the older man who guides her, knight to Buffy's Queen, yet also her child, her creation in how he obtains the soul and sacrifices himself finding redeemption ultimately in her eyes. Both Cordy and Buffy look at their men and encourage them to do what they wish with the simple words - I believe in you.
Both to a degree worship at their alter. And both are sacrificed, only to live in a different way. Connor to live the life of a human, Spike as a ghost.

The writers explore within these relationships all the variables of the male love for mommy and the mother love for son. So much has been written about father/son regarding Angel, but what fascinated me most about the series was the mother/son dynamic and how that dynamic contrasted and paralleled what was being shown in the parent show it was spun off from.
By the same token while Angel can be seen as Buffy's father figure, Buffy can be seen as Angel's mother figure - the mother to his knighthood. Up until he meets Buffy, Angel is shown as a miscreant, a failure, a gutter dweller - it is not until he sees her that he begins his journey towards champion. Darla may have given birth to Angelus, but Buffy gave birth to Angel. Even his soul is given to him by a woman - a gypsey. It's why he can't be with either, for the same reason a mother cannot live forever with her son, or a daughter with her father, yet by the same token clearly aches to be. The Freudian knot untangled and revisited in a new and intriguing way.

Comments

[liliaeth]

Hmm, I think that both Darla and Buffy made a champion out of Liam. Darla made him her dark king, taking the wastrel and bringing out the dark sadistic artist underneath.

When Angel loses Darla, he returns to being that same wastrel he was before, wasting his life, doing nothing of importance until he finds a new innocent/mother to obsess about and drag him out of his obsession with himself.

I guess that's why Buffy's a replacement for the original mom-figure, the deceptive innocent.

It's noticeable that after leaving Buffy, Angel is once again falling into that same drag and heading towards wasting his life again, if Doyle, his new guide, hadn't pointed him on the path towards meeting Cordelia, who gets to replace Darla/Buffy as the new motherfigure/innocent.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Except Cordy doesn't replace Darla or Buffy immediately. It is actually Kate who Angel gets involved with first. Then Darla reappears and almost pulls him down with her - and with Darla - Angel creates Connor who is like most children are for parents both his saving grace and his downfall. A paradox.
Through Connor - Angel sees his mistakes replayed before his very eyes. Connor rejects the father, falls for the demon mother, creates the demon child, must slay the demon child, falls into despair and almost destroys innocent lives in the bargain. Connor's arc is patterned after Angel himself, proving the apple really does not fall far from the tree. Jasmine is Connor's Drusilla. Except unlike Angel, Connor is able to destroy her - and he tries to destroy Cordy too - until Angel stops him - both occur at the end of Season 4, Angel.

The unanswered question is does Angel learn anything from this? Or is the pattern repeated again with Fred/Illyria and Nina? And Cordelia herself?
Does he once again fall prey to being the champion to the mother, bashing everyone against her cruel altar much like someone proffering a sacrifice to Kali - the mother goddess of Hindu myth. Destroyer and Giver of Life.
Cordy after all is the one who tells Angel to destroy Wolfram and Hart. While Nina suggests he go away with her - she offers compassion. And Fred requests saving. And Illyria tells him to be cruel to sacrifice everyone to achieve power. Each is a different face of the mother, the goddess, and once again Angel bows to their will.

[embers-log.livejournal.com]

I'm rewatching Angel's season 2 (which I recently bought at Costco) and I'm enjoying it more than ever before. These shows really stand up to rewatching, and rethinking. They can be looked at through different lenses, where we can discuss different aspects of the writing and production.
I don't think I'll ever get tired of them.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Yes - I think that's what I liked most about them and have not really found in anything else - with the possible exception perhaps of BattleStar Galatica. But it doesn't speak to me in quite the same way and so much has to do with what speaks to you on the guttural level. And that I think is unique to each person.

What amazes me about Angel and Buffy fandom is it is a combo of people who really wouldn't have discovered each other without it. A lot of them have very little in common outside of the fandom. Example: Buffy and Angel unlike Doctor Who or Star Trek contains people who really dislike science-fiction and fantasy who rarely watch it. I've met people who adore Buffy who have never seen an episode of Trek. I've met folks who are academics - and don't watch tv. Folks who watch tons of tv. Trekkies. Star Wars fans. Romance novelists. Mystery writers. The scholar who wrote the into to the most recent edition of Little Women - connected the story to Buffy and quoted Buffy twice in that intro. It's one of the few cult/genre tv shows that has appealed to a broad cross-section of people.

And it can be analyzed in so many different ways. Every time I watch an episode I see something new, something I hadn't seen before. And I've watched them over a hundred times by now. I'll wait a few years, try again, thinking I'll find it silly like so many other tv shows - but nope, it still resonates. For a Tv show that has a small budget, crappy sets, low-budget special effects and stunts - that is saying alot and it has to do with the acting and writing.

Only have the latter seasons at the moment...hopefully someday I can afford the early ones, would like to see them again.

[ruthless1.livejournal.com]

Which seasons of each show are you missing?

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I've seen all the episodes of course, but only own S4-7 BTVS on DVD, and S4-5 ATS on DVD. Do not as of yet have S1-3 for either series.
Do have all the episodes on VHS, rendered useless now since my VCR no longer works with my TV (long complicated story not worth repeating here.)

[petzipellepingo.livejournal.com]

Spike is both father and son in the Buffy/Spike storyline - the older man who guides her, knight to Buffy's Queen, yet also her child, her creation in how he obtains the soul and sacrifices himself finding redeemption ultimately in her eyes.
Nods. An amazing journey for that fellow who ran over the Welcome to Sunnydale sign and was only meant to last a single season.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

He does have a fascinating journey, a journey that is only equalled by Wesley Wyndram Price on Angel. One of the things I liked most about these shows was the ability of the writers to devote so much time to peripherial and supporting players, to make their arcs as interesting and multifaceated as the leads. There were no true stock characters on these shows and that's hard to do on tv or any medium.

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

And let's not forget that Wood winds up dating one (Buffy) and sleeping with another (Faith) who took over his own mother's role in the world. Paging Dr Freud...

Liked this.

Both to a degree worship at their alter.

Of course, Connor is shown literally worshipping at the altar of Cordelia at the end of s4.

Here's an interesting angle: We NEVER see Liam's mother (at least not named). Wanna bet she was blonde?

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Thanks.

And yep. Nina certainly looks a lot like Darla, Kate, and Buffy. Heck when he gets involved with Cordy - Charisma the actress playing her coincidentally colors her hair "blonde" - my guess Mom was a blond.

Spike's Mom coincidentally has the name "Anne" in the script - Buffy's middle name.

Then there's Wood who has a thing for slayers. You're right on Wood - he flirts with Buffy in Lessons, asking her if she's Dawn's "Mom".
Also like both Angel and Spike - Wood is older and like Giles, her boss or authority figure - read "sire", and she is taking his advice, yet by Touched and End of Days, things flip and Wood is the one who is following Faith and Buffy, worshipping at their alter so to speak, one of their many knights errant. In Lies, Buffy graduates from Wood's underling/daughter to mother - stating the same line his mother once said to him back to him. Then in Touched - Faith tells Wood she doesn't need him - she's taking the girls, he's reglated to the wife/son status of staying home by the phone.

True as well on Connor - who is shown literally worshipping at the altar of Cordelia. And Angel who is shown earlier worshipping at Jasmine's altar, with Cordy between them.

Later in S5 - when Fred is taken over by the old one - Illyria - once again Angel finds himself looking at a god. She is both daughter and foul mother. The girl to be saved and the girl who can destroy him and literally does in one timeline.

[dlgood.livejournal.com]

Nina certainly looks a lot like Darla, Kate, and Buffy.

??? Hair color aside, I'd disagree. Buffy and Darla are both petites, but they don't look the same. And Nina and Kate are built very differently. As is Cordy. There's a point where the comparison is insightful, but also where it gets a little superficial.

Although, perhaps those distinctions are important. It's not just the ways in which Buffy is like Darla, but also how she isn't like Darla. Or how much of Kate is what Buffy might be in ten years, and how much isn't.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

They aren't exactly alike, true. But it is interesting they are all blond...could just be Boranze, except for the fact that he's on another show at the moment doing quite well with a brunette.

The similarity amongst the women isn't their looks but their relationship to Angel - without exception all played similar roles - damsels, mothers, daughters...

[dlgood.livejournal.com]

The similarity amongst the women isn't their looks but their relationship to Angel - without exception all played similar roles - damsels, mothers, daughters...

But that's a pretty wide net. It fits every woman he interacts with, not just those on the shortlist.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Let's forget hair color. I honestly think it was coincidental like the numbers on the costumes. And it really wasn't part of my essay just this thread, which is becoming a tad pedantic. *g*

I think if you read the essay above - my focus was on his close relationships. Kate has a sort of authority figure (cop) and a need to be saved - similar to Buffy (slayer/cop) and Darla (who he slays and saves and worships) much like Buffy (who he attempts to slay, saves, and worships)....Cordy same deal. There's very much of a "My Heart Belongs To Mommy" or an Oedipal thread that gets repeated in Angel.

Sibling Issues

[dlgood.livejournal.com]

I see... although I think the Oedipal thread is a little overstated - and not just because Nina doesn't fit the pattern.

We saw little of Liam from his human life, and his mother was scarcely a presence. There was his father, and his sister. The 'daddy issues' are clearly prominent, and though there are mother/son aspects I think it can be something of a mistake to pin his relationships too directly into that mold. How much of that is circumstance, as opposed to it being specific to his character?

In Angel's interaction - his need/desire to save female authority figures is very often strongly paralleled with his feelings about his own status - not about saving mommy. His early relationship with Buffy - he's trying to save Buffy to save himself, but the other motivation didn't seem to be trying to save him from his own mother's fate or from Darla's fate. He was trying to save Buffy from being cut off from humanity and life - he's trying to save her from his own fate.

And atop all the love/hate/mother dynamics with Darla, in AtS2 he tries to save her soul for the basic reason that - if a human Darla can't be saved, how could he ever argue that he's worth saving? I think it's more personal than mommy issues - even if it takes on some of the trappings.

And his AtS1-2 relationship with Cordelia which is more big/little brother sibling than parent. His relationship with Faith also reads far more a Big Brother. Just as, the connection with Kate is as much over their shared daddy issues - as it is him seeing her in the Mommy role. I don't think that's something he ever does - he sees Kate as a junior colleague.

Little Sisters.

Re: Sibling Issues

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Except Darla doesn't fit the "little sister" pattern.

I think it's not just Little Sisters. I think it's a bit of both.
The women he falls for - have a maternal aspect, its not until Cordelia becomes more maternal - mother to his son, a higher being (all glowly and powerful), who is saving him - that he begins to want to sleep with her - that he desires her. When he sees her as the little sister - he's not interested in her sexually, but when she becomes Mommy - whoa.

Drusilla - is similar - he destroys her when she is the angelic little sister, when she becomes a vampire and creates her own child, again maternal as we see in Destiny, he has sex with her - in front of the child which is a nice contrast to Connor having sex with Cordelia while Angel looks on - this time unseen. Granted he doesn't have sex with Dru because of his interest in Dru but rather to hurt William. But it's interesting that's when it happens.

Same with Nina - Angel doesn't sleep with Nina until Nina takes on an almost maternal aspect with him - see Smile Time. She is more powerful than him in that episode, its after that we start to see them together. When she's the little sister - he's not into her.

Kate - note that he never sleeps with and never even seems that interested in sleeping with.

Fred - same thing - never sleeps with her. He is only turned on by her when she takes charge of him. And when she becomes Illyria is when he listens to her. A destructive mother aspect.

Jasmine - he worships and wishes to destroy. She's both "granddaughter" and "mother".

Buffy - when he first sees her, he wants to save her - she's the little sister, when he falls for her and wants to sleep with her she's graduated to mother - she is in Darla's shoes - she's saved him in What's my Line from oddly enough his own offspring. Yet she is also acting as daughter - much like Drusilla.

Note Angel doesn't sleep with a woman until she takes on the "maternal" aspect. Even Nina - she becomes the wolf - metaphor for menstrual blood at the turning of the moon, the dark mother.
Granted they don't sleep together as vampire and werewolf - but it is interesting that it's after she attacks him as werewolf in Smile Time that the story progresses there.

So it is NOT just little sisters. Also - note the scene in Becoming when Liam falls into Darla's arms and is shown sucking the blood from "her breast" - do you really think of a little sister when you see that scene?

Re: Sibling Issues

[dlgood.livejournal.com]

I think it's not just Little Sisters. I think it's a bit of both.

Well, yeah. But your initial post talks nothing of sibling relationships. Which might work if Angel had no demonstrable sibling relationships. But he does, and that big brother/little sister aspect is a huge part of his character.

The women he falls for - have a maternal aspect

Pretty much by definition, all women have a maternal aspect.

But, for example, I think calling Nina's behavior towards Angel 'maternal' - even in "Smile Time" - is a reach. Is there anything strikingly maternal about this interaction that goes above and beyond the average male/female interaction. Is it any more maternal than his interaction with, for example, Harmony?

its not until Cordelia becomes more maternal - mother to his son

Mother to Angel's son. Not to him. Is this an attraction to Cordelia because her 'maternal' aspect now reveals her as a more attractive person, or desire for a motherly partner which its the role he wants and she a person he can make to fit.

This is where the comparisons fit less well. Buffy and Darla's 'maternal aspects' are very tied to the people they are at core -- the maternal aspects of Cordelia in S1 didn't seem to interest him at all. Whereas, in AtS3, he's attracted to a maternal figure named Cordelia - but one who seems to have lost many core and signature traits of the Cordelia he knew. (And beyond any 'motherhood changes you' metaphors.) It could also be execution. He doesn't seem all that attracted to her, while Lorne and Fred keep telling him he is, and ultimately one suspects it's more the concept of being part of a family that he desires rather than the actual person of Cordelia, who happens to display maternal traits.

This case may be more about societal expectations - a man who wasn't looking for a mommy/spouse and wasn't looking at Cordelia to be mommy/spouse, until he wound up with a kid and everyone (plus that 18th century upbringing) told him he required one.

Even Nina - she becomes the wolf - metaphor for menstrual blood at the turning of the moon, the dark mother.

Is that what it is? When Oz is a Wolf, it's a metaphor for the inborn savagery of the male, but when Nina's a Wolf it's a metaphor for the dark mother... How does that work?

There's very little to indicate that it's the Wolf in Nina that gets him hot. Personally, I think it's the monster/notmonster in the mirror, the groupie for the insecure, and oh yeah - the smokin' hot bod.

Again, not saying there aren't mother issues. But sometimes it's more of a reach. Certainly much more of a reach than with Angel's Daddy Issues and Spike's Mommy issues...

Re: Sibling Issues

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Didn't go into the sibling issues because wasn't that interested in them to be honest. ;-) In the past, I've written long essays on Spike/Angel sibiling issues - so it really is just interest.

I don't think it's a stretch. And as we both know Mutant Enemy used the same metaphor to depict two different and at times contrasting themes. Problem with life is it refuses to fit neatly into boxes.
And good art is similarly the same way.

Angel/father issues is obvious and for me rather dull to write about because - well it is obvious.

The Angel/mommy issues on the other hand never occurred to me before, and when I look at the show again, it clarifies a few things that bugged me - the Angel/Cordy relationship, the fact he was sired by Darla and how in some respects she informs his life more than Buffy does in his series. The whole thing they were doing with Nina - which is a completely different take on werewolves than Oz. It can be both.
If you read the folklore on werewolves - the male werewolf is the primal in a guy, the female - the dark mother - with the moon. Blood on the moon = menstrual. OZ = controlled by the mother- Kali, primal.
It's just another way of looking at it.

I'm by no means arguing the only way or the definitive way. But I think Angel, like all of us, is the child of two parents and has issues with both.

You keep saying we never see Angel with his mother, but we never see Spike with his father either - so does that mean Spike doesn't have father issues? If so, doesn't that make Angel and Spike somewhat two dimensional as characters? I think they were better written than that, Spike clearly had father issues - as we see in his brother/father/son relationship with Angelus and Angel. Just as Angel clearly has mother issues - as we see in his daughter/mother/son relationship with Buffy.

Can that be true of all relationships with women? Sure. But by the same token, can't we say the same thing about men - don't all men have brother/son/father issues with one another?

I'm not necessarily arguing its one way or the other here, just that this is another angle to look at - one that I think explains why the writers can't realistically put Buffy permanently in a relationship with Angel or Spike because of the degree the characters regard each other at this point in time on those terms - when that changes and they begin to see each other as "equals", then perhaps. But not until then. Right now both Angel and Spike view Buffy as a bit of a Queen, a mother, a savior, as well as something they must revere and protect. And Buffy still in some deep inner core of her being, sees them as the father who keeps abandoning her that she can never quite keep. I say all this with a disclaimer - it's my opinion, I will not be at surprised if somewhere down the road Whedon writes a comic that completely turns that opinion upside down. But it's a fun idea to play with.

Re: Sibling Issues

[dlgood.livejournal.com]

We see Angel's mother in one of the scenes of The Prodigal - but there is no notable interaction. He and father talk, he talks with the sister, but mother is mostly just there, looking frightened/concerned as appropriate to the scene.

I don't know that there's anything it tells us, other than that he had a mother. Spike's interaction with others, OTOH, would seem to indicate that he never had siblings and probably grew up only with a mother.

And Buffy still in some deep inner core of her being, sees them as the father who keeps abandoning her that she can never quite keep.

That's a case with Angel, Giles and Riley? But Spike? Unless he's a conscious opposition - that she selects him because he's so ill-suited for a fatherly role. And because he won't go away.

If you read the folklore on werewolves - the male werewolf is the primal in a guy, the female - the dark mother - with the moon. Blood on the moon = menstrual. OZ = controlled by the mother- Kali, primal

So the wolf represents male if you're already male, and female if you're already female. Are we exploring anything new here, or just reconfirming gender assumptions?

Re: Sibling Issues

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

Spike's interaction with others, OTOH, would seem to indicate that he never had siblings and probably grew up only with a mother.

His interaction with Dawn in season 5 spawned enormous number of fics in which he had a little sister who had died before his siring.

Re: Sibling Issues

[dlgood.livejournal.com]

His interaction with Dawn in season 5 spawned enormous number of fics

And what did his interaction with Dawn in S6-7 reveal? In S5 Dawn was stand-in for Buffy, and he took closeness with her when he couldn't be close to Buffy. And also used his closeness with Dawn to show that he could be trusted by Buffy.

When he could be close to Buffy in S6+, he no longer had need to be close to Dawn. Perhaps, he still could have tried to be, but there's not really much indication that he retained interest in Dawn at that point.

While it's nice that he could get close to Dawn, his behavior was still very much 'only child' and that seemed quite consistent throughout the show.

Re: Sibling Issues

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Not really. Or are you forgetting his relationships in the Fanged Four? Where he is in a way a sibling to Dru under Darla and Angel, yet at the same time Angel's brother?

Plus we have his interaction with Xander which reminds me a great deal of my own interactions with my brother. As are his interactions with Andrew, Willow, Tara, and to a degree Dawn.

Angel is actually depicted as more of a loner - less interactive with others. They are constantly seeking him out, while he sits alone at the top of his tower. Spike - note is playing poker with the underlings, out drinking with Charles, and sees Fred as a little Sis.

So it is more than possible that he wasn't an only child. All we have is two flashbacks - both of which are timed near his death. The writers don't tell us if he is an only child or not.

And I'd caution you against making generalizations here (yeah, yeah, I know do as I say not as I do), but I've known quite a few only children and you could say Angel and Spike's behavior fits the pattern. As does Buffy's, Xander's and Willows. (By the way - Xander, Willow, Giles, Wesely and Buffy (up until Dawn is born) are all only children, as is Cordelia. The only one's who aren't are Tara and possibly Oz, Dawn, Angel and maybe Riley. Whedon's show appears to be populated with them for some reason...maybe because it's hard to write in siblings? (shrugs).)

Re: Sibling Issues

[dlgood.livejournal.com]

And Gunn. Gunn has a sister.

Whedon's show appears to be populated with them for some reason...maybe because it's hard to write in siblings? (shrugs).)

My guess:
1. Less bookwork - if your characters don't have siblings or parents, you don't have to worry about what's happening with siblings or parents.
2. Story - If you want to write about 'lone heroes' it's easier to make them only children of absent parents
3. Personal - Whedon's an only child who came of age at a boarding school. He writes what he knows.

Re: Sibling Issues

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Actually Whedon's not an only child - he has a half-brother by his father and stepmother who he met in his late teens, early twenties when he went to live with his father. (Note when Dawn appears in Buffy's life. And the age range between both Buffy and Dawn and Angel and his sibling - the little girl.)

And yep, it is easier to write without sibilings. I'm writing a novel where two of my main characters don't have siblings, the third an older brother - course it's not my own experience (I have a younger brother) but that's one of the reasons I chose to do it. And it's a lot easier to exclude them, takes down the character count.

I honestly think you are right Whedon wrote what he knew and his writers followed his lead more or less. Until I read selenak's post, I'd long held the belief that Whedon split Angel and Spike into two sides of himself - the side with the sick Mommy issues, and the side with the nasty Daddy issues. Now, I'm wondering if he may have mixed it up a bit more than I gave him credit for - ie. I didn't give him enough credit. (Shrug)

Re: Sibling Issues

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Sigh, yes, I know an alarming amount about this - it's almost frightening.
I blame boredom and surfing the net and ahem reading one too many Whedon interviews. LOL!

Re: Sibling Issues

[dlgood.livejournal.com]

Now, I'm wondering if he may have mixed it up a bit more than I gave him credit for - ie. I didn't give him enough credit. (Shrug)

Produce 240+ episodes and things are going to start seeping whether one has a plan or not.

Re: Sibling Issues

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Particulary if you are doing a collaborative project with other people taking turns running the show, writing episodes, directing, and throwing in their two cents. LOL! From what I've read, I honestly think the writers had similar arguments. They still haven't come to a conclusion on which would win cavemen or astronauts. Another reason why television is an interesting medium and at times a frustrating one. ;-)

PS: You were right about Friday Night Lights. I've become a convert.

Re: Sibling Issues

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

Can't keep from quoting

http://www.vampiresandslayers.com/buffy.htm

WHEDON: I had a vivid imagination. I was a strange, unlovable child [laughter]. I think the thing that I was most afraid of was my big brother. If you see big brothers being eviscerated on the show you’ll know where what came from [laughter]. He’s scary! You meet him, you’ll think he’s scary.

Re: Sibling Issues

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Thanks, I knew he had a brother from a recent interview regarding a "nephew" but for some reason I thought it was a half-one for some reason. Could still be the case, even if he was older. Also assumed younger....could have both.

So much for assumptions, eh?

Wonder if Angelus/Angel was based on Whedon's big brother. LOL!

Re: Sibling Issues

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

I suspect that Spike/Angel relationship has been modeled after Joss' relationship with his brother. In that case, no wonder that eventually Joss "promoted" Spike to champion status! :)

Re: Sibling Issues

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I guess I'm reading the text less "narrowly" than you are. There are far too many gaps, I believe to read it narrowly. eg. We aren't told much about Angel's family life outside of maybe one or two episodes. Prodigal is an interesting episode but it is not an episode that is about Angel's family life, but rather one that is focused on an emotional theme - through it we are limited to a pretty tight point of view - Angel's - and memories focused primarily on the issue at hand - Kate's issues with her father. How to explain this? Say you and I are talking about our father's - you tell me a story about how you disappointed your dad, that you failed a test or maybe did not go on to do what he wanted you to do. I think back to my own relationship with my father in order to relate to what you are saying. Since the story you've told me is about "your father" - I'm not going to be thinking about Mom, am I? No. I'm thinking about Dad, in my head I'm trying to come up with an example and I land on one - say that my Dad is very successful and got a promotion and I didn't. It's what we do when we interact, we think of something from our own experience which enables us to relate to the information in front of us. Kate's father tells Angel - you won't understand until you have a son of your own - and Angel hears his father say the same thing. Prodigal is by no means a complete back history of Liam's life - what it is is a snippet of it. One of the joys of this series was the number of gaps it left in the narrative.

Same token with Spike - I don't think you can safely assume from two flashbacks that Spike was an only child or fatherless. What you see are memories and they are memories that are linked to issues in the present.
It's possible of course that Spike was fatherless and Angel motherless.
Just like Wood is fatherless, then later motherless. But we aren't given any clear evidence regarding it. And we have no idea if he had siblings. He could have - they could be dead. His mother is after all fairly old and at that period people usually had more than one child due to the fact that they didn't have birth control. Then again, it is equally possible he didn't. We simply don't know - since the writers never really tell us. And it can be legitmately read either way - another joy of the show - or rather a mixed pleasure - since it has lead to lots of vehment arguments. You and I both know that the best arguments are the ones in which there isn't definitive proof one way or another.

Is Spike ill-suited? Don't know about that. Depends on how one defines fathers. Riley is a bit an ass if you think about it - a nice ass, but still an ass and has a lot in common with Buffy's absent father. So does Spike - who she references directly in Conversations with Dead People - stating that her father cheated on her mother - just as Spike cheated on her with Anya, and Riley with the vamp whores, and Angel with Drusilla. Spike like Angel is considerably older than Buffy. 126 years. And his speech in Touched is fatherlike - with a lot of pararrels to Riley's Speech in As You Were, and Giles's speech in Innocence. So no, just because you don't respect Spike or think he isn't suitable, doesn't mean Buffy may not see him in that role - remember her own father was hardly suitable. This isn't a series after all about suitable fathers - but rather unsuitable/bad ones.

Re: Werewolves...

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Again you are reading the metaphor far too narrowly. Werewolf is not male or female. It is both. And it deals with the moon. The tides. Giving birth to a monster. The male giving birth to his monster under mother moon. The woman giving birth to her monster. The werewolf is actually more feminine as a monster more maternal than the vampire - since the change is controlled by moon (an aspect of the feminine) and by bit, a nip. The Vampire has more of a phallic feel to it - granted the blood mixes, but its the dagger teeth, the insertion - associated with the male aspect.

Note that OZ is portrayed as very adrogonous in some ways - he's small, slight, almost feminine. Kind. And paired with Willow no less - who later turns out to be a lesbian. So I'd say there's more evidence over the series as a whole - at least on a metaphorical level if not necessarily literal one - that the werewolf is more maternal in aspect, while the vampire more paternal - although that's certainly not definitive - and a legitimate argument could be made regarding the opposite. I think the writers may have intended both. Or maybe, we are reading far too much into the series as a whole and they didn't intend it to be anything more than a fun send-up of the gothic horror genre.

Re: Sibling Issues

[dlgood.livejournal.com]

We simply don't know - since the writers never really tell us. And it can be legitmately read either way - another joy of the show - or rather a mixed pleasure - since it has lead to lots of vehment arguments.

I suppose. In theory, if it were important, they would have told us. The absence of any father-tale from a primary character indicated to me that the father was absent. As did much of behavior. And his interaction with Angel(us) seemed to indicate to me that he'd never had a father figure to rebel against.

Spike like Angel is considerably older than Buffy. 126 years. And his speech in Touched is fatherlike - with a lot of pararrels to Riley's Speech in As You Were, and Giles's speech in Innocence. So no, just because you don't respect Spike or think he isn't suitable, doesn't mean Buffy may not see him in that role

It's not about me seeing Spike as 'not suitable' but about my sense that Buffy didn't see him as suitable. Which seemed rather clear at the time. She does see him as a useful bodyguard to Dawn, but hardly looks to Spike as parental figure for her as she did Riley.

Yeah, Spike is actually older than Buffy. Does she look at him as if he's older than her? Not really. That Buffy sees Spike as an older man is a rare argument I haven't read much of and may need to think about. Yeah, Spike is both male and older, and manages to regurgiate one of Riley's speeches (why didn't RRK write original dialogue for that scene?) but I think it takes a bit more to make the father figure case -- unless you are going with definitions that may be a bit more minimal than I was hoping for.

Re: Sibling Issues

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I've seen the writers and actors argue that he was meant to be a father figure. Was he? I think at the time he enters her life, Buffy has given up on the patriarchial model and father figures. You see her moving away from them at the end of S3 with her breakage from the council, then struggling with her need of them with her interactions with Giles in S4-S7. By LTMP she's shut Giles and Wood, potential father figures out of her life. And at that point allows Spike in.
Enter Caleb - the ultimate bad father - complete with priest's color.
(he's basically Jasmine's counterpart - obviously so, since he's played by the captain of Firefly, and Jasmine is played by the captain's second in command).

So at this point - Buffy does NOT want the father. So much as she wants an equal. She even states it to Angel in the infamous or famous cookie speech - "yes, Spike is in my heart, but I'm not ready to start planning grandchildren with him" or something to that effect.
Nor - she points out - am I ready to do it with you. You aren't suitable either for that specific role. What I need, she states, is someone I know will stick by me in the thick of it, who can be my backup, my champion - and does not have more committments elsewhere - someone I can trust. (She makes it clear here and later in S5 that she does not trust Angel any longer - she can't afford to. Every time she does he breaks her heart. Spike has to a degree earned her trust in Seven, and the relationship at any rate has a different dynamic.)

By the time Buffy gets with Spike in Seven, she has moved beyond the need for a father - as she states to Giles, Wood, Angel, and Caleb.
She no longer needs his teachings, his guidance, his protection, his approval, or his support. She will however accept his unconditional love - which are represented by Spike and his speech in Touched, as well as his sacrifice in Chosen, where he states that she doesn't love him but he appreciates the fact she said it, it's not why he's doing what he's doing.

[persephone-20.livejournal.com]

I can't even start arguing for or against in the face of this, but I will stop by to say that I did read what you wrote and thought all of it was really really interesting, and not a way that I have thought of it before now. *smiles*

[yourlibrarian]

Yes, given the commentary track by Fury for LMPTM the mother issues (and naming her Anne) were something Joss wanted to make explicit in that episode. I think you're right that there were definitely maternal Oedipal issues in the two series that get discussed less often than the father issues both the titular characters have. In fact outside of discussions of Spike and the LMPTM episode they rarely seem to be raised, so I enjoyed reading your discussion.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Thanks. It's the reason selenak's post hit me the way it did. I've read so many essays regarding Angel and his authority/paternal issues - heck even wrote a few, that I've grown bored of it. And lost interest in the series, seeing it to be yet another take on an old topic. Most noir and detective serials are ultimately about Daddy issues - which has its roots in Judeo-Christian doctrine. Honoring the paternal god. While it's definitely in the series - to the point you'd have to be blind death and dumb not to see it, I think there was an underlying maternal theme as well that I think to a degree squicked and bothered most viewers. We certainly see it in Season 4 with Jasmine, and in Season 3 with both Darla and Cordelia.

And I can't help but wonder if part of Darla's appeal to Liam - who sees her as a way out of his hum-drum life - is that he may in effect be motherless, aching for the strong female. Yet even with Darla he competes with the father/authority figure for her attentions. Very Oedipal. And note his lurking outside the Master's lair in S1 Buffy, never quite courageous enough to take the Master down himself - the closest he gets is slaying his mother-lover - Darla, which he also struggles with.

[yourlibrarian]

Some shows seem to hammer on the theme as if it passes for character development. My SO and I are currently watching DVDs of Brisco County Jr. which he enjoyed when it first aired. They seem to use the subject of his daddy issues like a hammer -- it almost seems a requirement to state them outright in each episode. (Luckily the series has a few other redeeming qualities)

Poor character development aside, I always found the Connor/Cordelia reaction curious. I thought S4 in general had problems, but the Cordelia and Connor in it were so far from the infant and woman in the early part of S3 (and really, how could Connor be expected to see her as a mother figure when he hardly knew the real her as an adolescent) that I really didn't see what the big deal was. I thought her treatment of Connor post-sex was far more troubling given what a damaged individual he was.

And note his lurking outside the Master's lair in S1 Buffy, never quite courageous enough to take the Master down himself

That's an interesting point. Of course Darla never really broke away from her father figure -- she left with Angelus but he had to fight for her. And he never liked her visits to him (given his "Master's pet" line in "Destiny"). Perhaps it was Buffy's very defiance of everything she should have done in relation to him that made her so irresistible.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Some shows seem to hammer on the theme as if it passes for character development.

Exactly. Supernatural has gone overboard. Smallville. Star Gate.
BattleStar Galatica - Adama/Lee. Rarely do we get the mother bit looked at it. I don't know if this is because of who is writing, if it is a side-effect of cultural/religious influences, or the fact that we do, like it or not, live in a partriarchial society. Bring up mom and people reacte oddly. She should be relegated to the background, the woman who waits, who watchs, who grieves but is not a direct participant except in a supporting role. What I found interesting about BTVS and ATS and to an extent Firefly, was how Whedon did not fall into that formulae. He's one of the few writers who hasn't and his refusal to do so has influences others - amongst them Jim Butcher (whose Harry keeps trying to treat women that way and keeps getting corrected), Ron Moore (creation of Starbuck as female and the President - the head of the government, also female),
Shondra Rhimes - whose Grey's Anatomy focuses on a female surgeon's relationship with her surgeon mother.

Poor character development aside, I always found the Connor/Cordelia reaction curious.

I remember getting into trouble on one of the posting boards I was on at the time for pointing out that the relationship really was no different than Angel and Buffy boinking. They had the same gap in age, after all. And Connor looked at Cordy in much the same way as Buffy looked at Angel. Also Angel turned evil after sex with Buffy just as Cordy appears to become evil after sex with Connor (we get no indication she is before that although she could be.) Connor is 17/Cordy 22-26. Buffy is 17 and Angel 22-26.

Part of the problem was the actress - Charisma was squicked by the idea because she was pregnant in reality and closer to 30 and VK was in reality closer to 17. But when Boreanze got it on with Gellar - Gellar was in reality 17 and Boreanze was 26 or 27 and married. Sooo..
why the problem?

Tim Minear really got into trouble for making a snarky comment about in an interview - stating that well, it's really no different than B/A and just as bad as B/A. Having to back-pedal, of course.

Of course Darla never really broke away from her father figure -- she left with Angelus but he had to fight for her. And he never liked her visits to him (given his "Master's pet" line in "Destiny"). Perhaps it was Buffy's very defiance of everything she should have done in relation to him that made her so irresistible.

This bit has always fascinated me. Why can't he defeat the Master?
Is it and I really wonder if this might be the case - tied into the same reason that he as Angelus would never seek out a soul, that Angelus was obsessed with being the most evil thing out there? And as Angel the best Champion in the world? He's less interested in "helping" or "saving" the world then he really is in being recognized for it. Getting the ever elusive thing - "approval". Buffy on the other hand manages to exist without it. She does not expect approval for her actions. And will often go against the authority figure. It's why she beats the first evil, caleb, glory, the master, and all the others - she finds the acceptance inside - she unlike Angel is not looking towards an external source. She doesn't ask for the award - like Jonathan does. And is surprised when they give it to her, touched even. But never seeking it. This is something Angel does not understand.

[yourlibrarian]

Well given that most of the writers are men it seems to me this:
She should be relegated to the background, the woman who waits, who watchs, who grieves but is not a direct participant except in a supporting role
is not only a way of avoiding her altogether but of also avoiding the one characterization you didn't include which was shrewish/annoying. The gender power issues are indeed hard to avoid when you bring a real mother into the mix as opposed to a shadow character and nothing makes a man's posturing of manliness less convincing than to have it done in the presence of his mother.

Gellar was in reality 17 and Boreanze was 26 or 27 and married
Actually she was 19 when the series started and Kartheiser was 22 that season, so it was a 9 yr difference in both cases. Far more striking is Gellar and Marsters which is something that is also rarely raised.

He's less interested in "helping" or "saving" the world then he really is in being recognized for it. Getting the ever elusive thing - "approval". Buffy on the other hand manages to exist without it.

That's an interesting point, yes. The whole issue of "duty" is very different between them.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Sure she was 19? I remember reading she'd had her 18th or 17th birthday around the time it began. I know she was barely 16 on All My Children - which was somewhat controversial considering the storyline (sleeping with her step-brother and accusing her step-father of rape).
Could be wrong.

[yourlibrarian]

Yes, because she had to be of age for filming purposes since anyone under 18 has to work restricted hours, and the show began filming in 1996. In fact the casting director once discussed how Katie Holmes had been a candidate for the series but they couldn't use her because she was underage and the filming conditions for the series would make it impossible to work around her restrictions.