Good Man Goes to War
Jun. 11th, 2011 10:35 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
shadowkatHee. I knew it! I knew it! So Cool!
* Hee. I knew River was Amy and Rory's kid and half-time lord and the kid in the astronaut suit. Figured that out more or less after the initial two-part episode. Was worried for a little bit that it wasn't going to go that way, but the moment I heard the baby's name - Melody and then River stated to Rory why she couldn't help - I knew it was going the way I thought. Very very happy about that. Very cool. So the ground-work was definitely there. (IF you happened to hate it this particular plot line? OR think it is really dumb? Please Go away. Shoo!)
The only thing that didn't quite work for me or felt off - is that when Rory sees River this round, comes to ask for her help to save his child and Amy, River greets him differently than before. Almost tenderly. Which was odd. And she does it prior to him telling her about Demon's Run or why he needs her help. Every other time she greets him - it's more like just a friend. Here there's a level of affection - almost as if she misses him. It's very odd. I suppose the explanation is - well Rory's, when he states - do you know me, have we met yet? I'm never sure where we are in the time line with you? And River states, of course I know you, Rory. (Almost as if she's always known him, just as she's always known the Doctor and always known Amy Pound - they are her family. They just haven't met River yet. How incredibly odd - yet in a way realistic..no it is totally realistic, to meet your family as an adult and realize they don't know you. I had that experience with my Granny. It's similar to F. Scott Fitzgerald's metaphor in the Curious Case of Benjamin Button - the idea of memory being lost. River has the weird experience of her family knowing the woman she'll become literally before she's born, and meeting them when she's older
when they are young and haven't even had her yet, before she exists. It's like talking to my Granny, who in her mind was in a place and time before I or my mother existed. She did not know me, because I did not exist yet to her. It's not that she forgot me, it's that her mind had wandered backwards to an earlier time and place, a time when she was a child or a young adult recently married.) So here - the River greeting Rory...is tender, because she knows he doesn't know who she is yet. It would be like greeting your own father, and having him see you as not his daughter, as someone else. So, I take it back, it does work in a really beautiful way, actually.
* Why River couldn't go - heed the Doctor's call, help him when he asked.
Amy giving her daughter the name Melody Pound, which the girl from the Gamma forests sewed onto patchwork piece. (In the forests, the only water is a River...or when you are lost in the forest, look for the River). Pound flows into the River. River flows into the Pound. So they used the word River instead of Pound, and Song instead of Melody.
And when the Doctor asks River, after her long somewhat confrontational speech...who are you? She leads him to his cot/cradle. "Oh, I haven't seen your cot in a very long time." She's leading him to the name on the cot, the name on the piece of fabric. "Who are you? Answer my question!" "I am trying to tell you who I am, can't you read?"
And their relationship makes sense as well - she's half time-lord, created the same way he was - by being literally born in a time vortex. The Time Lords were created by spending too much time next to or around the time vortex. Imagine being literally born in one. I figured that was most likely it - Rory and Amy have been in that Tardis - they spent their wedding night there.
Who could understand him better than someone who is half-time lord - who also flows in and out of the river of time?
And their trajectories aren't really back to front, but jumbled. She sees his death. He sees hers.
He meets her as a baby, then yells at her for not helping him save the baby. Time doesn't run in a straight line - it's not linear just because that's how we think. It bends.
She's the hope to stop him from becoming a deadly weapon, and in a way she does...their weapon against him, the child of his best-friends, becomes his dearest love. Talk about star-crossed lovers - that's the ultimate.
*Oh, lovely episode. Fun. With some interesting twists and turns. They also address the last episodes fairly well - through River's speech - to the children of the forests - you are a noble warrior - Doctor means Warrior. Not healer. Just as the noble warrior - tells Rory, he's now a nurse and Rory the noble nurse, is a Roman warrior - the Last Centurian. And Doctor River Song is warrior and archeologist. The Doctor kills the Live Flesh version of Amy, just as Amy's live flesh version of River dissolves - not completely sentient. But is it right? Any more than the fact that other races fear him so - that they run at his name? (I really loved River's speech - it was wonderful, she gives the best speeches. Honestly my favorite episodes of this series all have River Song in them.
It's so deliciously ironic that Dr. River Song is Amy and Rory's child made inside the Tardis,
and given birth to in an alien world. Kidnapped by future humans in a bitter battle with the Doctor. The Doctor is thrilled, because it means the baby is alright, that he does save her.
She's safe. He'd given up. He thought all was lost. As did Amy and Rory. Fearing their child lost to them forever. Only to be greeted by the baby, in the form of a woman fifteen-twenty years older than they are. That's life traveling through time - you meet your own child as an adult and discover she's in love with and in a relationship with the Doctor. (Both Rory and Amy have been told at different points by River that she loves the Doctor.) Also, twice now - Amy holds a gun on her own child. (oooh I love ironic twists).
Also explains why River is so at home in the Tardis and able to drive her - she was made in the Tardis, in some respects, the Tardis is as much River's mother as Amy is. River has DNA from Amy, Rory and the Tardis in a weird way. The Tardis must see River as it's child as well. It's where
River first felt safe.
*Other fun things? The big blue genie guy.
*The lesbian snake lady who ate Jack the Ripper. (LOL!)
(Who we discover was the same woman from the episode with the tunnelers in S5, I think she was the villain in that episode.) She also has a rather nice interaction with the Doctor. In which she tells him that the humans would see a timelord as a weapon because they've met him.
*The twist on Doctor/Warrior and Nurse/Warrior. Rory the Nurse becomes Rory the Centurian. Rory in some ways is a shadow of the Doctor. Or a mirror image. He starts out innocent and as time passes becomes a warrior. He's lived a 100 years and not aged a day. And the back story on how time lords were created, and that Amy's child is part time lord.
*Oh, and yes, River can regenerate. Or so we've already been told. Whether she does it in the same fashion as the Doctor is a whole other story.
* The headless monks are really headless. LOL! I had a feeling. And General Runaway??
* Is it just me or did the patch lady look more like a Nazi or a Russian Spy from Bullwinkle, than
a Pope?
* How cool was Rory? (I have a message from the Doctor and a question from me. Where is my wife? (What is the message from the Doctor?) Everything explodes behind Rory's head. Do I need to repeat the question? ) I think I'm half in love with Rory. Andrew Darville is a darling. And a very good actor.
* So for that matter is Matt Smith as the Doctor - who swings between playful, pained, tormented, embarrassed, giddy, and adorably bewildered all within five minutes without missing a beat. He's actually the most comedic of the new Doctors. (Tennant and Eccleston seemed to be more serious somehow...and Shakepearean in their portrayals, Smith appears to be having more fun.)
Okay off to bed am rather exhausted. So brain isn't communicating all that well. Worked hard today.
* Hee. I knew River was Amy and Rory's kid and half-time lord and the kid in the astronaut suit. Figured that out more or less after the initial two-part episode. Was worried for a little bit that it wasn't going to go that way, but the moment I heard the baby's name - Melody and then River stated to Rory why she couldn't help - I knew it was going the way I thought. Very very happy about that. Very cool. So the ground-work was definitely there. (IF you happened to hate it this particular plot line? OR think it is really dumb? Please Go away. Shoo!)
The only thing that didn't quite work for me or felt off - is that when Rory sees River this round, comes to ask for her help to save his child and Amy, River greets him differently than before. Almost tenderly. Which was odd. And she does it prior to him telling her about Demon's Run or why he needs her help. Every other time she greets him - it's more like just a friend. Here there's a level of affection - almost as if she misses him. It's very odd. I suppose the explanation is - well Rory's, when he states - do you know me, have we met yet? I'm never sure where we are in the time line with you? And River states, of course I know you, Rory. (Almost as if she's always known him, just as she's always known the Doctor and always known Amy Pound - they are her family. They just haven't met River yet. How incredibly odd - yet in a way realistic..no it is totally realistic, to meet your family as an adult and realize they don't know you. I had that experience with my Granny. It's similar to F. Scott Fitzgerald's metaphor in the Curious Case of Benjamin Button - the idea of memory being lost. River has the weird experience of her family knowing the woman she'll become literally before she's born, and meeting them when she's older
when they are young and haven't even had her yet, before she exists. It's like talking to my Granny, who in her mind was in a place and time before I or my mother existed. She did not know me, because I did not exist yet to her. It's not that she forgot me, it's that her mind had wandered backwards to an earlier time and place, a time when she was a child or a young adult recently married.) So here - the River greeting Rory...is tender, because she knows he doesn't know who she is yet. It would be like greeting your own father, and having him see you as not his daughter, as someone else. So, I take it back, it does work in a really beautiful way, actually.
* Why River couldn't go - heed the Doctor's call, help him when he asked.
Amy giving her daughter the name Melody Pound, which the girl from the Gamma forests sewed onto patchwork piece. (In the forests, the only water is a River...or when you are lost in the forest, look for the River). Pound flows into the River. River flows into the Pound. So they used the word River instead of Pound, and Song instead of Melody.
And when the Doctor asks River, after her long somewhat confrontational speech...who are you? She leads him to his cot/cradle. "Oh, I haven't seen your cot in a very long time." She's leading him to the name on the cot, the name on the piece of fabric. "Who are you? Answer my question!" "I am trying to tell you who I am, can't you read?"
And their relationship makes sense as well - she's half time-lord, created the same way he was - by being literally born in a time vortex. The Time Lords were created by spending too much time next to or around the time vortex. Imagine being literally born in one. I figured that was most likely it - Rory and Amy have been in that Tardis - they spent their wedding night there.
Who could understand him better than someone who is half-time lord - who also flows in and out of the river of time?
And their trajectories aren't really back to front, but jumbled. She sees his death. He sees hers.
He meets her as a baby, then yells at her for not helping him save the baby. Time doesn't run in a straight line - it's not linear just because that's how we think. It bends.
She's the hope to stop him from becoming a deadly weapon, and in a way she does...their weapon against him, the child of his best-friends, becomes his dearest love. Talk about star-crossed lovers - that's the ultimate.
*Oh, lovely episode. Fun. With some interesting twists and turns. They also address the last episodes fairly well - through River's speech - to the children of the forests - you are a noble warrior - Doctor means Warrior. Not healer. Just as the noble warrior - tells Rory, he's now a nurse and Rory the noble nurse, is a Roman warrior - the Last Centurian. And Doctor River Song is warrior and archeologist. The Doctor kills the Live Flesh version of Amy, just as Amy's live flesh version of River dissolves - not completely sentient. But is it right? Any more than the fact that other races fear him so - that they run at his name? (I really loved River's speech - it was wonderful, she gives the best speeches. Honestly my favorite episodes of this series all have River Song in them.
It's so deliciously ironic that Dr. River Song is Amy and Rory's child made inside the Tardis,
and given birth to in an alien world. Kidnapped by future humans in a bitter battle with the Doctor. The Doctor is thrilled, because it means the baby is alright, that he does save her.
She's safe. He'd given up. He thought all was lost. As did Amy and Rory. Fearing their child lost to them forever. Only to be greeted by the baby, in the form of a woman fifteen-twenty years older than they are. That's life traveling through time - you meet your own child as an adult and discover she's in love with and in a relationship with the Doctor. (Both Rory and Amy have been told at different points by River that she loves the Doctor.) Also, twice now - Amy holds a gun on her own child. (oooh I love ironic twists).
Also explains why River is so at home in the Tardis and able to drive her - she was made in the Tardis, in some respects, the Tardis is as much River's mother as Amy is. River has DNA from Amy, Rory and the Tardis in a weird way. The Tardis must see River as it's child as well. It's where
River first felt safe.
*Other fun things? The big blue genie guy.
*The lesbian snake lady who ate Jack the Ripper. (LOL!)
(Who we discover was the same woman from the episode with the tunnelers in S5, I think she was the villain in that episode.) She also has a rather nice interaction with the Doctor. In which she tells him that the humans would see a timelord as a weapon because they've met him.
*The twist on Doctor/Warrior and Nurse/Warrior. Rory the Nurse becomes Rory the Centurian. Rory in some ways is a shadow of the Doctor. Or a mirror image. He starts out innocent and as time passes becomes a warrior. He's lived a 100 years and not aged a day. And the back story on how time lords were created, and that Amy's child is part time lord.
*Oh, and yes, River can regenerate. Or so we've already been told. Whether she does it in the same fashion as the Doctor is a whole other story.
* The headless monks are really headless. LOL! I had a feeling. And General Runaway??
* Is it just me or did the patch lady look more like a Nazi or a Russian Spy from Bullwinkle, than
a Pope?
* How cool was Rory? (I have a message from the Doctor and a question from me. Where is my wife? (What is the message from the Doctor?) Everything explodes behind Rory's head. Do I need to repeat the question? ) I think I'm half in love with Rory. Andrew Darville is a darling. And a very good actor.
* So for that matter is Matt Smith as the Doctor - who swings between playful, pained, tormented, embarrassed, giddy, and adorably bewildered all within five minutes without missing a beat. He's actually the most comedic of the new Doctors. (Tennant and Eccleston seemed to be more serious somehow...and Shakepearean in their portrayals, Smith appears to be having more fun.)
Okay off to bed am rather exhausted. So brain isn't communicating all that well. Worked hard today.
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here's how I understand River & Rory
Date: 2011-06-12 04:56 am (UTC)When Rory comes to her and asks her if they've met, she realizes her father no longer remembers she's his daughter. So her initial greeting is all OH DADDY LET ME TELL YOU ABOUT MY BIRTHDAY but she eventually withdraws and puts a distance between because she's always always conscious of "spoilers."
She's always putting on a poker face. And no doubt it's a defense mechanism for how all the people most important to her keep forgetting how important she is to them -- all since she's living her life in an opposite chronology. Their firsts are her lasts.
---
I loved the episode, too! I actually just finished a rewatch of Series 5 so I'm about to start the Series 6 run again. Should be fun. :)
Re: here's how I understand River & Rory
Date: 2011-06-12 12:15 pm (UTC)Here, you see the daughter telling her father about her birthday, having totally enjoyed herself, only to realize he doesn't know he's her father yet. And that she can't tell him and must be the distance between them. I think they must at some point tell her about these moments...that are coming up in her future? Or how else would she know about them and stop herself from telling them spoilers?
no subject
Date: 2011-06-12 03:57 pm (UTC)Is it just me or did the patch lady look more like a Nazi or a Russian Spy from Bullwinkle, than a Pope?
Um, she wasn't the pope. (The pope was a computer, I think? 'The Papal mainframe herself')
Who we discover was the same woman from the episode with the tunnelers in S5, I think she was the villain in that episode.
Not the same character, but the same actress. :)
she's half time-lord, created the same way he was - by being literally born in a time vortex.
Not born, conceived. And I doubt he was conceived in one, literally... But yes, she's got a 'Timehead' and despite being wrapped up in a mostly human packaging is clearly Time Lady enough to be regenerate and keep all the timey-wimey stuff straight in her head. No wonder she always came across as his equal! Also: He's no longer alone! \o/
She's the hope to stop him from becoming a deadly weapon, and in a way she does...their weapon against him, the child of his best-friends, becomes his dearest love.
And she does stop him. With words, not weapons, and is far more effective for it. Her speech is one of my favourite things EVER (hurrah for someone telling him the unvarnished truth!), only topped by this one:
His acting in this episode is just off the chart...
no subject
Date: 2011-06-12 08:40 pm (UTC)Wasn't the Sirulian seen before in the episode about the Digger's? I'm not positive, but they mention she was the Sirulain who was trying to kill the Digger's to avenge her sister's death? And they managed to turn her around. It's been a long time since I saw the episode of course....and it admittedly makes no sense that the Sirulian is now living in 19th Century England, as
opposed to more modern times - when they actually discovered the Sirulians.
By the way, there's an excellent review by
no subject
Date: 2011-06-12 08:52 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-06-12 11:23 pm (UTC)I'm guessing that's the reason - but I can't remember if that character survived. I mean, if they use the same actor and character for the Sontarian from S3, why not use the same character from S5??
no subject
Date: 2011-06-12 11:35 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-06-12 09:02 pm (UTC)No worries. I know it is! :)
Wasn't the Sirulian seen before in the episode about the Digger's? I'm not positive, but they mention she was the Sirulain who was trying to kill the Digger's to avenge her sister's death?
I was wondering that too, but her name is Vastra. The Silurian sisters in the S5 episodes were called Restac (the one who shot Rory) and Alaya (the one who was killed by Ambrose). So a different person. The Sontaran, OTOH, I'm pretty sure is the one who tried to kill Martha and Mickey. :) (No one else has mentioned this, but it's *definitely* the same actor, and it'd fit nicely.)
And thanks for the rec - will check it out when I have a moment. :)
no subject
Date: 2011-06-12 06:24 pm (UTC)And they juxtapose that with a Sontaran, the ultimate warrior, having become a healer. And Rory, the centurion nurse, straddling both. Loved that; the first Who episode ever where I actually found the Sontarans interesting.
no subject
Date: 2011-06-12 08:33 pm (UTC)Loved how he threaded past episodes into this one, particularly the former warriors/adversaries that the Doctor had managed to (the word escapes me - impressed? encouraged? talked into? Mind really is not functioning today.)
take on a peaceful path. The Sirulian Sister, a Warrior, avenging her Sister's death against the tunnelers - who learns another path, the Sontarian - the Ultimate Warrior who became the Ultimate Nurse. Yet, now, the Doctor is doing the opposite - turning Rory the nurse into a Warrior...
no subject
Date: 2011-06-12 09:06 pm (UTC)