Buffy Season 8 - Predators & Prey
Mar. 16th, 2009 07:50 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
shadowkat[I finally got my comics on Sunday. The sprained ankle made it impossible to pick it up until well yesterday. The Buffy comics are getting better, which isn't really all that surprising when I think about it. The tv series was slow to start too.]
In a recent interview - Joss Whedon stated something along the lines that he's always focused to a degree on the relationship between predators and prey in his works. [Thanks to![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
aycheb for pointing it out to me.] The title of this issue, written by Drew Greenberg (of Dexter and Smallville fame), is Predators & Prey. But it isn't entirely clear who the predators and who the prey are, they keep flipping back and forth - something that happens a lot in Whedon's tales. In the first episode of Buffy the Vampire Slayer, we see a blond cheerleader, pretty, young, with an innocent voice, who is wandering the darkened halls of the school with a bad boy, or so we think. It's a scene out of a slasher picture. We think the boy has brought her there to kill her or rape her. That he is the predator and she is the prey. But there's a twist, she's a vampire and sinks her fangs into him, sucking his life away. A spider, who has caught an errant fly in her web. Same deal with Buffy - when we first see her, we think she's prey, the victim, the petite blond who gets killed in the beginning of the horror flick. And as played by Sarah Michelle Gellar, who at the time had starred in at least two horror flicks - where she was the little blond girl who got sliced and diced, this is not all that far fetched. But again, there's a twist, she's a vampire slayer. She preys on the predators, slays them.
I think that twist, simple as it sounds, may well be what attracted me to Whedon's stories. I like the ironic twist, and I like the fact that the underdog, the victim, actually turns out to be the only one left standing. It's a concept that was borrowed from Ridley Scott's Alien, where the only one left standing is a female worker, named Ripley, who normally is the victim in those types of tales. Or Terminator - where it is a blond waitress who kills and defeats against all odds an unstoppable monster.
In most tales, the woman is the prey, or if predator, she's depicted a bit like a spider, with fangs, weaving a web of lies around the poor hapless fly of a man she has trapped in her web.
Greenberg's Predators & Prey flips this a bit. The spider, is a female demon, but the weaver of the lies, the one who constructs the trap and creates the demon is a man. A man with the best of intentions.
Andrew and the Spider Demon
The story starts with Andrew Wells (Tucker's Brother) racing to find Buffy. He declares that he has found intell on the rogue slayer, Simone Doffler, who along with a contigent of other rogue slayers - has taken off to parts unknown. Simone and her gang of "bad slayers" are robbing banks, kicking people out of their homes, and doing all sorts of nasty things. Andrew equates Simone with a bully, and apparently blames himself, as her watcher, for her behavior -much as Wesley Wyndom-Price blamed himself for Faith's actions.
So, he tells Buffy that he's tracked one of her key lieutenants - now trapped in a Ragna demon's web. Ragna demons weave webs that are made of pipes, iron and steel - with a magical forcefield like snare at the top. The victim is kept alive for thirty-six hours before feeding. Something about adrenaline being a turn on.
Andrew Wells's main talent in the Troika was his ability to summon or create demons. It was to an extent why he bonded with and annoyed both Xander and Anya. Xander for his tendency to attract female demons, and Anya, because she was one. Andrew also is a master weaver of lies, he's The Storyteller. Years ago, I had a creative writing teacher tell me that fiction writers weave lies for a living. But the best lies are ones with a kernal of truth in the center. Andrew is a writer, a storyteller. And his best lies, are one's of omission, where he just does not provide all the facts.
Andrew is also, now, we're told, a Watcher. Watchers tend to also lie by omission. Giles, Wesley, the Watcher Council, are just a few examples. To a degree these are white lies, necessary ones. Giles does not tell Buffy everything he knows about Angelus. And he omits telling her what he knows about her own orgin or fate. Part of it is a power-play, information, as we all know, is power. And part of it, is to protect - whether that be oneself or the person you are lying to.
Whedon and his writers have always been fascinated by miscommunication, how we lie, how we play around the truth, and the sins of omission. If you look back at the series - you'll note the number of times a lie or the decision by a character not to inform other characters has caused problems. In the commentary to Lessons - Whedon states that what intrigued him most in the episode, was why Buffy chose once again not to tell Xander and Dawn that she'd found Spike in the Basement or that it was Spike who had told her what caused the problem. One wonders what may have occurred if she'd been up front with them.
Here, Andrew fails to tell Buffy that he's been playing with demon DNA to breed a Ragna demon, in order to trap Simone and her gang. It backfires on him, Simone rescues her lieutenant and takes the Ragna. Defensive and apologetic, Andrew tells Buffy that he didn't tell her because he was afraid of how she'd reacte, and while he knew it was risky, he felt he had to do something and it was the only thing he could think of that would quickly trap Simone. What he chose was perfect metaphor for what Andrew does - which is weave webs, and the web is a technological one - again a metaphor for Andrew and technology/science.
Buffy is understandably furious. Andrew pleads: "I've never had this before. With anyone. Now that I know what it feels like ...I didn't want it to get taken away. What if you ended up blaming me for this someday? I had to make sure. I didn't want you to lose faith in me. So I tried to fix it."
Buffy states: Losing an insane, gun-loving, punk slayer isn't the way to make me lose faith in you. Lying to me is.
This is the reason Giles and Buffy aren't speaking. Giles lied to Buffy too many times to count. It got to the point that she felt she couldn't rely on him or trust him anymore.
The latest was with Faith and Gigi, but if you go back through the seasons, you can hit upon other lies. And it is to a degree her problem with Angel, who lied to her about who he was.
It's also going to be a sticking point with Riley, who we've recently learned is lying to Buffy about his role with Twilight and the Initiative. Buffy is also lying, she's not telling Willow about what happened in the future - it is the sin of ommission, and could be argued is for everyone's benefit. But lies...if woven together can form a web in which you will eventually become entangled unable to get out. Dawn - for example - cheated on and lied to Kenny, and reaped the consequences.
So now, Andrew has told Buffy everything, right? No more lies? He's come clean, so to speak.
When they find Simone's gang's headquarters, right before entering - Andrew even gives Buffy a little speech, tells her "everything".
Can I point out that I was just trying to do the right thing?...We might not come out of this alive, and I want to make sure I've said everything I need to say to you. And now I have. Wait, no, also, now that I've met Angel, I have to say, Spike was so much edgier, you definitely traded up, I'm totally team Spike. Also, I know I'm in the minority, but I liked it when you cut your hair. There. Now I've said everything.
This speech can be interpreted many ways. But I think it is rather simple and straightforward.
The writer is reminding us that Andrew is still lying to Buffy. Here, he has the perfect opportunity to come clean, but he changes his mind, for understandable reasons, and instead covers. He knows and has known for quite some time now that Spike is alive, not only that he knows that Angel and Spike came to visit Buffy in Italy, but left thinking she was with the Immortal. Up until now, I wasn't sure if Buffy knew if Spike was alive or not. Now, I'm positive she still thinks he's dead. Because why else would the writer bring it up? And why here, at that moment? Neatly bracketed by a silly item, to mislead both Buffy and us.
Buffy doesn't think it's important and probably shrugged it off, as do we. But, it is a reminder that Andrew is still hiding something from Buffy. That he's lying to her. It may be justified, but if you keep in mind what Buffy said earlier, and what caused the initial riff between Buffy and Giles in S7, I think it is worth noting. What I think is most interesting, is the fact that Andrew is still lying, sill omitting the truth.
From Andrew's perspective he didn't lie to Buffy about the Ragna demon, that wasn't what he did wrong, what he did wrong was creating it and letting Simone get away. He doesn't register what Buffy tells him - that it is lying to her that makes her lose faith in him. If he did, he might understand why she and Giles aren't speaking. So, from Andrew's perspective a lie of ommission, isn't a lie. He's not lying about Spike.
The Ragna demon in some respects is what Andrew's lies of omission create, and the snare at the top, which leaves the slayer dizzy and winded from hanging upside down, slightly in shock, is the effect those lies have on the people he lies to. Buffy is winded, and dizzy, when she meets Simone, distracted by Andrew's lie. And she's almost ensared in Simon's trap, accidently woven by Andrew.
It's no accident that Ragna is being traded for Andrew - they are mirrors of each other. Both weaving webs, one just is made of lies and the other of pipes. The snares are the same. Simone tells Buffy they are similar - you can have one, give me the other.
Buffy and Simone
If the Ragna is a dark mirror to Andrew, then Simone is to Buffy. Simone is all about the ends justifying the means. She reminds one a bit of Faith in Season 3 of the TV series, except with lots and lots of backup. Simone is also a cautionary tale of what happens when power goes to one's head. She's why Twilight exists, and why the military is worried, and why vampires are now the in thing. In an odd way Harmony and Simone have created one another - or rather, inadvertently, Buffy has created them both. They are Buffy's dark mirrors - the tempting glare of fame, fortune and power.
Simone is also yet another wake-up call regarding the ill-effects of sharing the slayer power with millions of women. Then attempting to recruit them and form an army.
It's interesting that Simone was trained and recruited by Rona and Andrew. It's also interesting that the slayer who was running away from a girl gang, and got killed by Harmony, was approached by Andrew. Makes one wonder about Andrew.
One of the Family
The issue ends with Andrew being accepted as one of the family. Buffy chooses to save Andrew, lets the Ragna loose on the rogue slayers, evacuates the remaining inhabitants of the village, and leaves to fight another day. Nothing is really gained, except that Buffy has now seen what can happen if slayers put themselves above everyone else. And that Andrew has now been told, officially, that he is one of them, part of the group, and can be forgiven for silly mistakes.
Family is another on-going theme of the series - how we make our own families. Flock together to survive.
But, while Andrew seems happy now, I keep thinking about that throw-away line...which reminds us that Andrew has not changed. He still lies. And we know how Buffy feels about lies, even if that feeling is a tad on the hypocritical side. Because Buffy ironically lies as well. It's what often gets her into trouble.
Predator and Prey
The predators of the title - we are told are the Ragna and Simone. But are they? Andrew and Buffy are hunting Simone and the Ragna. Andrew created the Ragna to trap Simone, Andrew is the spider in the story. While Buffy is using him to trap the rogue slayer. The prey is Simone, an angry slayer, not unlike Faith, with issues with authority. Simone states - you know I have issues with authority and you set "him" up as my watcher? Simone is described as a bully, but bullies are often victims who got beaten up so much they became bullies to survive. Simone is the angry woman. She tells Buffy that the world wants to kill them or let someone else do it. Her words are laced with fear. I think Simone has been the prey her entire life and aches to be the predator, is getting off on being the predator for a change.
She wants Andrew - because he's the spider who trapped her with his lectures and teachings, who created the Ragna and the Ragna's web to trap her lieutenant.
Buffy has always been the predator...she slays the demons, she hunts them. A hunter. Even here, surrounded, she acts like the hunter. The slayers who arrive do not arrive to save her, but Andrew, who like the Ragna is caught. It is Buffy not the other slayers who frees the Ragna from its cage with a gun. As it was Simone who caught the Ragna by stunning it with the gun.
The flip here is that all the characters at different points in the story are predator and prey. And all want to be predator, because they believe the predators have the power.
The question the writer leaves us with is do they? And if so, at what cost?
In a recent interview - Joss Whedon stated something along the lines that he's always focused to a degree on the relationship between predators and prey in his works. [Thanks to
aycheb for pointing it out to me.] The title of this issue, written by Drew Greenberg (of Dexter and Smallville fame), is Predators & Prey. But it isn't entirely clear who the predators and who the prey are, they keep flipping back and forth - something that happens a lot in Whedon's tales. In the first episode of Buffy the Vampire Slayer, we see a blond cheerleader, pretty, young, with an innocent voice, who is wandering the darkened halls of the school with a bad boy, or so we think. It's a scene out of a slasher picture. We think the boy has brought her there to kill her or rape her. That he is the predator and she is the prey. But there's a twist, she's a vampire and sinks her fangs into him, sucking his life away. A spider, who has caught an errant fly in her web. Same deal with Buffy - when we first see her, we think she's prey, the victim, the petite blond who gets killed in the beginning of the horror flick. And as played by Sarah Michelle Gellar, who at the time had starred in at least two horror flicks - where she was the little blond girl who got sliced and diced, this is not all that far fetched. But again, there's a twist, she's a vampire slayer. She preys on the predators, slays them. I think that twist, simple as it sounds, may well be what attracted me to Whedon's stories. I like the ironic twist, and I like the fact that the underdog, the victim, actually turns out to be the only one left standing. It's a concept that was borrowed from Ridley Scott's Alien, where the only one left standing is a female worker, named Ripley, who normally is the victim in those types of tales. Or Terminator - where it is a blond waitress who kills and defeats against all odds an unstoppable monster.
In most tales, the woman is the prey, or if predator, she's depicted a bit like a spider, with fangs, weaving a web of lies around the poor hapless fly of a man she has trapped in her web.
Greenberg's Predators & Prey flips this a bit. The spider, is a female demon, but the weaver of the lies, the one who constructs the trap and creates the demon is a man. A man with the best of intentions.
Andrew and the Spider Demon
The story starts with Andrew Wells (Tucker's Brother) racing to find Buffy. He declares that he has found intell on the rogue slayer, Simone Doffler, who along with a contigent of other rogue slayers - has taken off to parts unknown. Simone and her gang of "bad slayers" are robbing banks, kicking people out of their homes, and doing all sorts of nasty things. Andrew equates Simone with a bully, and apparently blames himself, as her watcher, for her behavior -much as Wesley Wyndom-Price blamed himself for Faith's actions.
So, he tells Buffy that he's tracked one of her key lieutenants - now trapped in a Ragna demon's web. Ragna demons weave webs that are made of pipes, iron and steel - with a magical forcefield like snare at the top. The victim is kept alive for thirty-six hours before feeding. Something about adrenaline being a turn on.
Andrew Wells's main talent in the Troika was his ability to summon or create demons. It was to an extent why he bonded with and annoyed both Xander and Anya. Xander for his tendency to attract female demons, and Anya, because she was one. Andrew also is a master weaver of lies, he's The Storyteller. Years ago, I had a creative writing teacher tell me that fiction writers weave lies for a living. But the best lies are ones with a kernal of truth in the center. Andrew is a writer, a storyteller. And his best lies, are one's of omission, where he just does not provide all the facts.
Andrew is also, now, we're told, a Watcher. Watchers tend to also lie by omission. Giles, Wesley, the Watcher Council, are just a few examples. To a degree these are white lies, necessary ones. Giles does not tell Buffy everything he knows about Angelus. And he omits telling her what he knows about her own orgin or fate. Part of it is a power-play, information, as we all know, is power. And part of it, is to protect - whether that be oneself or the person you are lying to.
Whedon and his writers have always been fascinated by miscommunication, how we lie, how we play around the truth, and the sins of omission. If you look back at the series - you'll note the number of times a lie or the decision by a character not to inform other characters has caused problems. In the commentary to Lessons - Whedon states that what intrigued him most in the episode, was why Buffy chose once again not to tell Xander and Dawn that she'd found Spike in the Basement or that it was Spike who had told her what caused the problem. One wonders what may have occurred if she'd been up front with them.
Here, Andrew fails to tell Buffy that he's been playing with demon DNA to breed a Ragna demon, in order to trap Simone and her gang. It backfires on him, Simone rescues her lieutenant and takes the Ragna. Defensive and apologetic, Andrew tells Buffy that he didn't tell her because he was afraid of how she'd reacte, and while he knew it was risky, he felt he had to do something and it was the only thing he could think of that would quickly trap Simone. What he chose was perfect metaphor for what Andrew does - which is weave webs, and the web is a technological one - again a metaphor for Andrew and technology/science.
Buffy is understandably furious. Andrew pleads: "I've never had this before. With anyone. Now that I know what it feels like ...I didn't want it to get taken away. What if you ended up blaming me for this someday? I had to make sure. I didn't want you to lose faith in me. So I tried to fix it."
Buffy states: Losing an insane, gun-loving, punk slayer isn't the way to make me lose faith in you. Lying to me is.
This is the reason Giles and Buffy aren't speaking. Giles lied to Buffy too many times to count. It got to the point that she felt she couldn't rely on him or trust him anymore.
The latest was with Faith and Gigi, but if you go back through the seasons, you can hit upon other lies. And it is to a degree her problem with Angel, who lied to her about who he was.
It's also going to be a sticking point with Riley, who we've recently learned is lying to Buffy about his role with Twilight and the Initiative. Buffy is also lying, she's not telling Willow about what happened in the future - it is the sin of ommission, and could be argued is for everyone's benefit. But lies...if woven together can form a web in which you will eventually become entangled unable to get out. Dawn - for example - cheated on and lied to Kenny, and reaped the consequences.
So now, Andrew has told Buffy everything, right? No more lies? He's come clean, so to speak.
When they find Simone's gang's headquarters, right before entering - Andrew even gives Buffy a little speech, tells her "everything".
Can I point out that I was just trying to do the right thing?...We might not come out of this alive, and I want to make sure I've said everything I need to say to you. And now I have. Wait, no, also, now that I've met Angel, I have to say, Spike was so much edgier, you definitely traded up, I'm totally team Spike. Also, I know I'm in the minority, but I liked it when you cut your hair. There. Now I've said everything.
This speech can be interpreted many ways. But I think it is rather simple and straightforward.
The writer is reminding us that Andrew is still lying to Buffy. Here, he has the perfect opportunity to come clean, but he changes his mind, for understandable reasons, and instead covers. He knows and has known for quite some time now that Spike is alive, not only that he knows that Angel and Spike came to visit Buffy in Italy, but left thinking she was with the Immortal. Up until now, I wasn't sure if Buffy knew if Spike was alive or not. Now, I'm positive she still thinks he's dead. Because why else would the writer bring it up? And why here, at that moment? Neatly bracketed by a silly item, to mislead both Buffy and us.
Buffy doesn't think it's important and probably shrugged it off, as do we. But, it is a reminder that Andrew is still hiding something from Buffy. That he's lying to her. It may be justified, but if you keep in mind what Buffy said earlier, and what caused the initial riff between Buffy and Giles in S7, I think it is worth noting. What I think is most interesting, is the fact that Andrew is still lying, sill omitting the truth.
From Andrew's perspective he didn't lie to Buffy about the Ragna demon, that wasn't what he did wrong, what he did wrong was creating it and letting Simone get away. He doesn't register what Buffy tells him - that it is lying to her that makes her lose faith in him. If he did, he might understand why she and Giles aren't speaking. So, from Andrew's perspective a lie of ommission, isn't a lie. He's not lying about Spike.
The Ragna demon in some respects is what Andrew's lies of omission create, and the snare at the top, which leaves the slayer dizzy and winded from hanging upside down, slightly in shock, is the effect those lies have on the people he lies to. Buffy is winded, and dizzy, when she meets Simone, distracted by Andrew's lie. And she's almost ensared in Simon's trap, accidently woven by Andrew.
It's no accident that Ragna is being traded for Andrew - they are mirrors of each other. Both weaving webs, one just is made of lies and the other of pipes. The snares are the same. Simone tells Buffy they are similar - you can have one, give me the other.
Buffy and Simone
If the Ragna is a dark mirror to Andrew, then Simone is to Buffy. Simone is all about the ends justifying the means. She reminds one a bit of Faith in Season 3 of the TV series, except with lots and lots of backup. Simone is also a cautionary tale of what happens when power goes to one's head. She's why Twilight exists, and why the military is worried, and why vampires are now the in thing. In an odd way Harmony and Simone have created one another - or rather, inadvertently, Buffy has created them both. They are Buffy's dark mirrors - the tempting glare of fame, fortune and power.
Simone is also yet another wake-up call regarding the ill-effects of sharing the slayer power with millions of women. Then attempting to recruit them and form an army.
It's interesting that Simone was trained and recruited by Rona and Andrew. It's also interesting that the slayer who was running away from a girl gang, and got killed by Harmony, was approached by Andrew. Makes one wonder about Andrew.
One of the Family
The issue ends with Andrew being accepted as one of the family. Buffy chooses to save Andrew, lets the Ragna loose on the rogue slayers, evacuates the remaining inhabitants of the village, and leaves to fight another day. Nothing is really gained, except that Buffy has now seen what can happen if slayers put themselves above everyone else. And that Andrew has now been told, officially, that he is one of them, part of the group, and can be forgiven for silly mistakes.
Family is another on-going theme of the series - how we make our own families. Flock together to survive.
But, while Andrew seems happy now, I keep thinking about that throw-away line...which reminds us that Andrew has not changed. He still lies. And we know how Buffy feels about lies, even if that feeling is a tad on the hypocritical side. Because Buffy ironically lies as well. It's what often gets her into trouble.
Predator and Prey
The predators of the title - we are told are the Ragna and Simone. But are they? Andrew and Buffy are hunting Simone and the Ragna. Andrew created the Ragna to trap Simone, Andrew is the spider in the story. While Buffy is using him to trap the rogue slayer. The prey is Simone, an angry slayer, not unlike Faith, with issues with authority. Simone states - you know I have issues with authority and you set "him" up as my watcher? Simone is described as a bully, but bullies are often victims who got beaten up so much they became bullies to survive. Simone is the angry woman. She tells Buffy that the world wants to kill them or let someone else do it. Her words are laced with fear. I think Simone has been the prey her entire life and aches to be the predator, is getting off on being the predator for a change.
She wants Andrew - because he's the spider who trapped her with his lectures and teachings, who created the Ragna and the Ragna's web to trap her lieutenant.
Buffy has always been the predator...she slays the demons, she hunts them. A hunter. Even here, surrounded, she acts like the hunter. The slayers who arrive do not arrive to save her, but Andrew, who like the Ragna is caught. It is Buffy not the other slayers who frees the Ragna from its cage with a gun. As it was Simone who caught the Ragna by stunning it with the gun.
The flip here is that all the characters at different points in the story are predator and prey. And all want to be predator, because they believe the predators have the power.
The question the writer leaves us with is do they? And if so, at what cost?
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
no subject
Date: 2009-03-17 05:35 am (UTC)If that line isn't open, then the issue is less interesting, though still good. So I'm hoping you are right.
no subject
Date: 2009-03-17 04:39 pm (UTC)Ah. But you are missing a few things. First, does he acknowledge the problem was the lie? Or the problem was going off on his own and creating the demon?
He even states at one point, during their initial arguement about it at the Ragna's web - that he never lied to her. He just omitted how the Ragna came about and why it was in existence. So, from Andrew's pov, I'm not sure he thinks he's lying.
But, even if you are correct and Andrew did acknowledge the problem was lying to her about the Ragna demon. This does not mean he has stopped lying or that he will or has told her everything. Remember this has happened before in the episode "Storyteller" - where Buffy with the aid of her comrades, finally got Andrew to tell the truth - to tell them what really happened and by facing it, no longer protecting himself from that truth, to feel genuine love and remorse - that closed the hellmouth seal. Here it happens again, more or less. But this is not evidence that he'll stop lying. Nor, from his pov, does he necessarily consider all lies wrong.
Andrew is, as we saw in both the Angel tv series and the Buffy series an accomplished liar. He managed to convince Spike and Angel that not only was Buffy in Italy, so was Dawn, and they were just playing about with the Immortal. No army. Nothing. He did such a good job, that Angel backed way off. And we have no idea what Andrew knows about Giles activities or what he's been doing. I'm not saying he's Twilight or evil, I don't believe he is. Just that Andrew, like a lot of people, justifies his lies.
The line about Spike needs - I think - to be read in context. If it was meant as a throwaway line - Greenberg would have put it in that geek chatter at the beginning of the comic, or at any other point. But no, he places the line at the point in which, a)Andrew may have realized his lie of omission got them into trouble (and literally is about to get Andrew killed by another slayer (Simone) who feels betrayed by him much as Faith once went after Wes), b)he prefaces it by stating I want to tell you everything before we die.
Granted it is bracketed by a throwaway line, which was most likely thrown in there by Andrew as nervous chatter. But I think the line is meant to be a reminder of another lie Andrew has told. A somewhat comic one.
If you look at the issues as a whole - there's an underlying pattern of miscommunication and lies of ommission. Buffy states how disconnected she feels - part of the reason for that is people aren't confiding in her and she, doesn't feel she can trust or confide in anyone herself. Xander is hiding Dawn's secrets from buffy or rather how Dawn got that way. Willow is hiding the whole snake goddess thing. Giles is hiding what he is doing with Faith and why. Buffy in turn has hidden her recent rendez-vous with Riley from everyone. And Andrew is hiding his meetings with Spike and the fact that he knows Spike is alive. He told her that he met Angel, and may have told her Angel came to Italy. But I think he left out the bit about Spike.
On top of all of this - we have Harmony lying about vampires and slayers. Simone using Harmony's lies as a justification for her own behavior. Plus, Buffy has clearly not told anyone about what happened in the future with Fray. All of this has created a nifty web of secrets and lies, which are slowly building and slowly isolating Buffy - until she may well feel like she's in the snare at the top of the Ragna demon's web.
no subject
Date: 2009-03-17 05:48 pm (UTC)I do agree about all the other lies going on. We can add in Buffy's attempt to lie to Willow about bank robbing. Which gives me occasion to mention that I think the bank robbing is a big part of the Giles/Buffy rift. I think he wasn't on board and she didn't handle that well. And I think in their falling out there was an implied comparison of her to Faith, something about needing to take care about crossing lines. I think those things because it clears up some puzzling stuff in NFFY, namely Buffy's hair-trigger hostility towards Faith, the way she completely melts down in her conversation with Giles, and his choice to seek out Faith in the first place (basically running a test to see if he's got one slayer who knows about the line, just in case push comes to shove).
no subject
Date: 2009-03-17 09:53 pm (UTC)Here's the dialogue for that last scene:
Andrew: But you were right. I lied to you.
Buffy: Yeah. You're part of the family. Get used to screwing up for good reasons. It's what we do. Swing by when you've got the specs written up. We'll take a look.
Andrew - after several beats: I'm part of the family.
Buffy basically forgives him. And Andrew goes cool.
It does not mean he won't keep lying to her, nor that he has told her everything. It only means that she forgave him for this lie and he probably won't lie about making demons in the future and he may think twice about doing it in the future.
Regarding Spike? You can argue fairly strongly that it is doesn't count - since Spike, himself, asked Andrew not to tell Buffy he was alive. (Granted this was before the escapade in Italy...but still.) Also, we don't know who else knows about Spike. I'm guessing Giles does - because Andrew mentions how he is in communication with Giles in Damage - Angel S5. So, it's possible Andrew sought Giles' guidance on it.
So from Andrew's pov - it may not be a truth that he can tell her.
Whether Buffy knows or not? I'm pretty certain now, that she doesn't know. For a while I wasn't sure. Now?
I'm willing to bet she has no clue Spike is still alive. Who else knows he's still alive - outside of Andrew? I don't know.
Also, from Andrew's pov, even though he liked Spike, he did tell both Spike and Angel to stay clear of Buffy. That she'd moved on. He may well agree with Giles and Spike, that while Spike is cool - she's better off not with him.
Soo..I don't think he'd be brooding on it. And why would he brood on the lies he told Angel and Spike in Italy? He did the right thing from his pov. No, Andrew isn't necessarily regretting that.
Re the bank robbery bit? I don't know if Giles knows about that. I may have missed the reference. And if he does? I'm not convinced he wouldn't have condoned it, Giles is known to be pretty underhanded about things.
OTOH - it is more than possible you are right. BUT - I don't think it was Giles who stopped speaking to Buffy, so much as it was Buffy who stopped speaking to Giles. And the reason she did is much the same reason she got angry at him in S7's Lies My Parents Told Me.
Giles lies to her in that episode. He lied to her before as well. And in NO FUTURE FOR YOU - he's lying to her again. I also think his motivation for going after Faith is more or less straight forward - Faith reminds him a little bit of himself. He was, after all, in his youth a lot like Faith. A rebel. And a bit of a bad boy. He's also, like Faith, killed people.
Also Faith needs him, Buffy doesn't appear to - an ongoing theme since S5. Buffy, from Giles' pov, has moved past him. While from Buffy's pov, Giles like all the older men in her life - has left/abandoned her.
no subject
Date: 2009-03-17 11:48 pm (UTC)As for what I want, I agree with your assessment of Spike's role here. We aren't headed to a romantic anything (and if by some remote chance we are, my money is on Bander). And he won't be a straight-up villain. But I think his role will be hurtful to Buffy in some way. Maybe he'll have moved on in a way that is undermining to her (taking up with Faith, for example). Maybe he'll be oppositional about her methods (bank robbing, for example). But who knows? My speculations are terrible. (I don't write fiction for a reason).
Not so sure that Joss is a big Lynch fan. You may have more recent information than I do, but the positive noises were a year ago at the outset of the AtF project, and he's since made statements that sure sound like he's walking back his involvement with that project -- i.e. it's not season 6 cause he's not supervising it; he just gave a few ideas and handed it over and said good luck. Lynch himself has said that he hasn't been able to get anything from Whedon about his story ideas for the upcoming continuation of Spike's story. The fact that IDW is going forward on both the Angel and the Spike fronts with NO input from Joss looks to me like a divorce. And there was a comment by Allie that suggested to me that as an outside shot we might get some story wherein the two stories are no longer in the same 'verse. But who knows what's really going on behind the scenes.
On the Giles thing -- no text. It was just an aha moment for me and I haven't been able to shake the sense of certainty that I'm right about it. Giles motives for seeking Faith are given by Giles to Faith only in response to her presumption that that's why he's there. Which makes sense since he's not about to tell her about any uneasiness he might have about Buffy. Buffy's own reaction to Faith is too hair-triggered given their rapprochement in s7, but would make total sense if Faith issues got stirred up in the argument with Giles. She specifically tells Faith Giles never trusted her -- which is a somewhat odd thing to say at this juncture -- unless it had come up as part of the conversation about lines being crossed. And in the big scene where she breaks with Giles, the close up of her crushing hurt is not about the lie, it's directly in response to Giles statement that he doesn't want Buffy to have anything to do with what he's up to. That emotion is too big for this to be the first time he's suggested that he needs distance from *her*. And it further smacks of a lack of trust on his part. Further the reading works with Giles evident enthusiasm for teaming up with Faith. She's passed his test with flying colors... So that's my reading. Like I said, this is one of the rare times where the reading hit me full-blown and I really cant' shake it... though, obviously, I could be wrong.
no subject
Date: 2009-03-18 03:05 am (UTC)I do know from a recent interview that Whedon stated he didn't want to interfer with what IDW had going, and was willing to wait, but he won't wait forever.
(I'm not sure it matters, since I don't consider either comic canonical to the tv series (nor does the majority of readers for that matter) - different mediums, different writing teams and different collaborators. Whedon could kill off Spike in the Buffy comics, and I'd still buy Lynch's books and enjoy them.)
That said? I don't see Whedon killing Spike off or making him into a villain or anything like that.
What is important to remember about Spike and Angel right now - is they came out of ATF - bonafied heroes by LA. Got dedications,etc. They are also the only two vampires out there, who care about Buffy, support slayers, and think vampires are evil.
Also both have to a degree moved on.
So, my spec is that if Spike and Angel show up, they'll probably show up in relation to the Harmony story arc - about vamps being cool, slayers not. Either to dispell that myth or inadvertently benefitting from it. My guess is they'll appear to be benefitting from it, from Buffy's perspective, when in reality they may be trying to do the opposite.
Re Giles? I don't know. I've read numerous takes on the character. My own take is that he and Buffy split apart sometime in S7 and haven't really ever made up.
He voted for Faith to take over. He tried to kill Spike. And he made it clear to her that the only way to be a good general was to make harsh decisions.
In some respects - Giles is the only father she's really had and he represents the father figure that she can't quite come to peace with, an on-going theme in Whedon's tales.
no subject
Date: 2009-03-17 06:07 pm (UTC)But there are explanations for the tenses that don't require that Andrew is lying. Indeed, I think we are meant to not know the answer to this question at this juncture.
no subject
Date: 2009-03-17 10:22 pm (UTC)But here...he seems to want to tell her, but swerves, possibly realizing it's not his place to tell her and also, sooo not the right time. And she doesn't pick up on the tenses, any more than I really did at first. But if you look at her reaction, sort of slack-jawed. Like she's thinking: "Okay, What are you talking about Andrew? And why bring up Spike and Angel now?" She's silent starring at him in a frame, before the second frame - where he states, somewhat nonchalantly: "Well, she should be inside, in we go."
Nice cover. Reminds me a little of the episode - Pangs, where Angel is wandering about and everyone lies to Buffy, quickly covering. Except Anya who accidently blurts it out. Here Andrew appears to consider it, but refrains.
So this tells us: 1) Andrew decided not to tell her. 2) Buffy does not know Spike is alive. (Unless I read it completely wrong and the writer just meant it as joke. Which is entirely possible. The writers have an annoying habit of telling jokes at the reader's expense - the Dawn jokes got on my nerves in the first ten issues.)
It does not tell us anything else. And I agree, I don't believe we are meant to know at this point.
I'm not sure how Whedon plans on using Angel and Spike in the story, but he is building towards using them gradually. We probably won't see them until around issue 39-40 is my guess. Whedon clearly doesn't like to use the big guns early on. He's also building up to OZ, and a few others. The head writer whose overseeing all of this is being very careful with his characters and how and when he uses them. He's also cognizant of the fact that IDW has a nifty little franchise going with Spike and Angel comics, which he doesn't want to screw up, because he likes IDW, as well as Brian Lynch, and doesn't want to hurt their franchise.
For a while, I was unconvinced Whedon planned on having Spike or Angel appear at all. But Harmonic Divergence changed my mind on that one. This issue in a way, just reaffirms it. Also, for a while, I really wasn't sure if Buffy knew Spike was alive or not. I figured it was more than likely she did. This issue and a prior one confirms to me that she most likely doesn't. (The prior one was with Satsu, where she stated that one of the people who loved her burned up and died.)
I still don't know what Whedon plans on doing with them or how they will appear. I do know for a fact that there is no way they are going to be a)villians, b) Twilight, or c)sexual partners of Buffy in a threesome or for that matter d)romantic love interests. Those four things I don't see happening - the pattern of the current plot doesn't support it. Nor does Whedon's interviews. I just want closure. Which I may or may not get...that's the problem with serials - they seldom provide closure.