Spontaneous Musings

Can you watch shows on Hulu? (If not, iTunes has it for free.) It really would be a shame to miss the ending of Glee. The final number makes the entire episode.

From:

I actually saw most of the final number. It cut off just after the teacher came into the auditorium and caught the final stanza of their number - literally the last two or three minutes if that. I figure, he applauded them and said, I'm sticking around, screw this accounting thing or something to that effect.

Nope, can't do Hulu - not enough RAM to run it on my machine. I may try iTunes.

It was brilliant by the way. You were correct in your review, Murphy's blatant misogyny/misanthropy is way watered down here, it comes out, but in just flashes of sardonic wit/satire and since it is braced against joyous musical numbers and some incredibly lovely characters, it's actually more witty, than misanthropic in this context for some reason.

From:

Yes. What I liked was that instead of him telling them how amazing they were, though, is he criticized them, told them it sounded good, not great, and that they'd have to work hard to get it to a 10. And tells them exactly what they need to work on to improve it. It ends on him saying something like, "Let's get to work."

Completely agree with everything you say. The fact that it's a musical and its genuine, huge heart really does counteract Murphy's unlikable tendencies. It's really a perfect blend. The snark keeps it from being too sappy, while the music/sentimentality keeps it from being...well, Nip/Tuck, heh.

From:

Ok, now I want to see those last three or four minutes that I missed. Because that's actually a more realistic take and preferable. Otherwise, why would they need him? Curious also to see what his criticism was. Mine - would have been that two of the people were underutilized, and it mostly focused on the guy and the girl. By the way - who is the transplant from Spring Awakening? Is it the girl with the great voice?

I'm hoping Fox gives Murphy as much leeway and support for Glee as they did Nip/Tuck on F/X. Because it looks like Murphy is actually growing as a writer, and trying something new.

It's certainly the most uplifting show I've seen since maybe Pushing Daisies. Let's pray it pulls in a bigger audience than Daisies did. I need my cult tv shows, dang it. ;-)

From:

Ok, now I want to see those last three or four minutes that I missed. Because that's actually a more realistic take and preferable. Otherwise, why would they need him? Curious also to see what his criticism was. Mine - would have been that two of the people were underutilized, and it mostly focused on the guy and the girl.

As far as I recall, it was more about the notes they were hitting. One interesting thing I read was that the arc of the first set of episodes when it comes back is that they have 5 kids in the glee club now, but they need 10 to make it to the state championships...so the first bunch of episodes will be the search for 5 more kids to fill out the group, which sounds really interesting to me. And lots of Broadway stars are signed up to appear, including Victor Garber and Kristin Chenoweth. And, yes, the girl with the great voice is Lea Michele, the lead from Spring Awakening.

Let's pray it pulls in a bigger audience than Daisies did. I need my cult tv shows, dang it. ;-)

Absolutely!

From:

Garber and Chenoweth? Cool.

Plus just the idea of what basically amounts to a full new musical every week is making me very excited.

Ditto. Say what you will about High School Musical - it did help pave the way for more musical oriented tv series, while providing a workable formula. Murphy has more or less taken the formula of High School Musical and tweaked it, adding a bit of snark, and relegating the musical numbers to the stage so he doesn't alienate those members of the audience who can't handle people spontaneously bursting out into song. (I've never had any problems with it...but I know a lot of people who do. Apparently seeing zombies come to life for no apparent reason and eating brains or the existence of vampires is easier to rationalize than people bursting out in song?)

The show feels a bit like adult comedy a la Teachers (the film)
mixed with the wholesome Disney High School Musical idea. Except done better than both. Maybe combining the two was the secret?

Plus just the idea of what basically amounts to a full new musical every week is making me very excited.

Yeah me too. I'm getting bored of the crime/medical dramas/procedurals where we see a new body carved up each week. I want a musical, where people sing and dance, with snarky comedy in between.

From:

Plus just the idea of what basically amounts to a full new musical every week is making me very excited.

From:

Tim Minear too? Really? I thought he was the one who really developed & fleshed out 'WonderFalls' which had interesting women... and of course I had given him partial credit (w/Joss) for Firefly. True enough 'Drive' didn't seem to have any capable women...

Roddenberry, I thought, did pretty well for the 1960s, he wanted women captains and the networks wouldn't let him....
but it is true that I was never crazy about any of the women's roles on ST or ST:NG, but I liked the roles of women in Voyager and DS9.... and then they regressed w/Enterprise (IMO)
and went completely retro w/this new JJ Abrams movie.

I always like Whoopie Goldberg's character, but she really was just a glorified bartender which was disappointing to me. I think I'll look for more Guinan icons

From:

Actually, Brian Fuller did that on Wonderfalls. All you have to do is watch the shows created by Minear to figure it out - The Inside and Drive. Same creepy sexist undercurrent that you get with Murphy, Abrhams, and Kring.

Also Firefly? Apparently Minear was behind Inara as the escort, and also had a script for latter Firefly that was...about Inara being sexually tortured. And well, the whole Darla is redeemed by her male son/childbirth deal - was Minear's idea. He is a good writer, but seriously has unresolved power issues regarding women.

From:

Ah, I always thought Joss went w/having a ~~prostitute~~ 'companion' on board because of Stage Coach being classic Western w/the priest & hooker....
And I was glad Tim Minear told that nasty possible future story about Inara being raped, because it meant they couldn't ever actually use that if they ever do get any kind of a sequel.
*shudder*

From:

That may have been part of it. But Minear does...go there. Minear didn't just tell that nasty possible future story, he wrote the script and came up with and pitched the idea.

I like the writer, but, well...

I think we are all have our triggers. Mine, of course, are aided by the ever-helpful critics on my flist who feel a need to point out these things to me, when I'd otherwise be blithly oblivious. Occassionally, I like to return the favor and do the same thing. Hee.

For example - a lot of people on my flist find Dollhouse unwatchable, but they love Supernatural and Lost and Star Trek and don't see any issues. So. I honestly think sometimes it's just in the eye of the beholder. Would be nice if we all agreed, but we don't.

From:

"For example - a lot of people on my flist find Dollhouse unwatchable, but they love Supernatural and Lost and Star Trek and don't see any issues. So. I honestly think sometimes it's just in the eye of the beholder. Would be nice if we all agreed, but we don't."

IMO the thing that sets Dollhouse apart is that Joss is putting a spotlight on the very issues that people make it unwatchable... Personally I think that Law & Order: Special Victims Unit is unwatchable because they spend 45 minutes looking at women and children as victims, and then spend 5 minutes at the end catching the bad guys.... So it seems to me that it would most appeal to people who want to see women & children victimized.

No one can argue that these things happen in real life, and pretending it doesn't happen will never stop it from happening. In fact pretending we live in a world where the weak are protected just makes it easier for the vicious to victimize the weak.

But in Dollhouse Joss is asking us to really look at how people get victimized, what people need to protect themselves, and how we (the general public) can help to stop the worst of it. I think Dollhouse is dealing with problems that go to the heart of humanity....
So yeah, I guess some people are so damaged from their own personal problems with the topic that they cannot bear to watch, or think about, something which deals with the victimization of women... But I have trouble believing that that is a reason why the rest of us shouldn't think about the topic. Not thinking about it is more dangerous IMO.

From:

Thank you for articulating something that has been bugging me lately.

I have been asking myself - why do people hate Dollhouse or are squicked by the sexual violence in Dollhouse, but have no problems watching shows like CSI, Bones, Criminal Intent, Law & Order, Lost, Supernatural, just about every procedural on tv right now, Medium, Without a TRace, and BSG - to name a few. All without question have depicted scenes in which a woman, a child, a minority was victimized in such a way that I cringed.

Also, in each of the above - the victim doesn't strike back, they don't win. The crime is solved after they are dead. And as far as serial killer stories? Each has one and again, the serial killer's victims don't slay him, they don't escape, the cops, if they are lucky catch the guy at the end. I got burned out on this after a while...and I found it not only unrealistic (in most cases these crimes are never solved and it takes a lot longer than it does on tv) and a tad depressing.

Whedon hits one of my bullet-proof kinks, or story tropes - which is that victim fights back. Wins the day. The little girl in the alley slays the vampire.
Or in Dollhouse, Caroline/Echo strikes back at Alpha, she doesn't just become his Omega. It's also not told simply, and the writer forces us to look at the sexism in our society, the roles we are being forced to play and question them. He is a horror writer, after all,
and unlike most horror writers he doesn't find cheap thrills such as grossing us out with explicit torture sequences or bodily dismemberment to be as interesting, as the psychological horror of situations.

I think the gross-out horror of Fringe is more comforting than the psychological horror of Dollhouse, and easier to write. Just as the gross-out horror of Bones and Supernatural are. They fun. But they don't really scare you that much. They don't make you think well not past a few days. They are comforting, because the writers more or less reiterate what we already know and already believe and provide, validation.

Whedon challenges it. Turns upside down. I don't find Dollhouse comforting. Buffy was in its first three seasons, but later, it like Dollhouse - was less so.
Lies My Parents Told Me is a disturbing episode. And it is meant to be. As was Damage - it's counter-part in Angel. Both in a way lead up to similarily disturbing episodes in Dollhouse and Firefly.

That said, the criticism I've been reading on Dollhouse, and it to a degree echoes what I read online about Firefly and may explain why the Buffy fandom has not flown to it in awe and love and wonder - is that it is not as coherent as Buffy's initial three seasons were, with warm fuzzy characters people could emotionally attach to, and a setting they identified with, and easy metaphors, and easy plots.
Dollhouse unlike Buffy's first three seasons, which I really enjoy by the way, requires a lot from its audience and is incredibly ambitious.

I'm enjoying it - because it plays with my head. Gives me all sorts of story ideas. But, I will admit, I'm not connecting to it emotionally in quite the same way I did with Buffy. I can't quite identify with the characters in the same way. That, however, may change.
It did with Firefly, and it did with both Angel and Buffy. As well as Fray.

At any rate, it is a very different show than the others Whedon has done. In some respects Dollhouse is scarier and far more horrifying.

Also..I think it is easier for people who have been a victim of a crime or are currently victims or have that trigger - to see a show like Bones or Law & Order, where the lead characters, the ones they are in the pov of and care about, are safe and playing heroes each week - than a show like Dollhouse, where they are either in the pov of the predators or in the pov of the victims. Add to that, in Dollhouse - the leads forget who they are at the end of the show. So...you have a character who is more or less a blank slate at the start of each week - that can be tough for someone to grab onto as a viewer, particularly when you just want to veg in front of the telly, and be comforted.
I like to be intellectually engaged when I watch tv, but not everyone does.

From:

Oh you made a very good point! When watching Bones we identify w/Bones or Booth, and never with the corpse in a state of advanced decay, so it is a lot easier to take the clinical view...
But when watching Dollhouse it is hard to be comfortable identifying w/the morally ambiguous characters... instead most of us are identifying with Echo, who we see being used and abused in virtually every episode! No wonder if it is painful, it IS painful!

Now maybe my love of 'Dexter' made me more comfortable with identifying with the most appallingly amoral anti-hero ever... next to him Topher is a choir boy, and Adelle is soft and cuddly. I have to admit that I've even come to care about Dominic and I want him rescued from the 'attic'!

But it isn't just that I'm in love with these people who have sold their souls for... whatever they are each being offered (not just Caroline, but you know Adelle has been bought too), it is also that I start to see people questioning their reactions:
On Whedonesque people were discussing the 'little girl' outfit that Echo was wearing in one episode and I couple of guys admitted they thought the costume was hot, but they aren't pedophiles... so why was it hot? They were questioning their own reactions... THAT is one of the things that Dollhouse does that no other show would dare to do! Would I want a doll to fulfill a fantasy? Does that make me a bad person?
It's complicated.

From:

Now maybe my love of 'Dexter' made me more comfortable with identifying with the most appallingly amoral anti-hero ever... next to him Topher is a choir boy, and Adelle is soft and cuddly. I have to admit that I've even come to care about Dominic and I want him rescued from the 'attic'!

It does help if you like anti-heroes or prickily/deeply flawed characters. A lot of folks, I've discovered, really don't. They want their protagonists/leads to be heroes along the same line as Superman was and Buffy in the first three seasons of that series. When Buffy got more layers, became less the pristine heroine (not that she ever was that pristine) and a bit more gray characterwise - a lot of fans could not deal with the character. Personnally, I found her easier to relate to and more interesting, more, real. Also, the more complicated Spike got, the more I fell in love.

Regarding Dollhouse? My favorite character - the one I love the most is not Echo, but rather Adelle - who is so flawed and twisted. And the actress playing her is amazing. I also love Boyd Langton, Sierra, Victor, and Whiskey/Saunders. Topher is also fascinating. I'm struggling with Echo and Ballard - who feel under-developed to me and less layered for some reason.
That may change as the story progresses.

They were questioning their own reactions... THAT is one of the things that Dollhouse does that no other show would dare to do! Would I want a doll to fulfill a fantasy? Does that make me a bad person?
It's complicated.

Exactly. It's what I like most about Whedon's writing. And the reason I enjoy Lost, and Mad Men - equally dark shows, with equally dark characters - that make us question our world and ourselves. And it's why, I think I'm still in love with Buffy.

From:

I'm no good at making icons, but I am good at finding them....
I found this:

I'm not sure the whole 'Goddess' theme is what you're going for, but it is a good selection of Star Trek women characters....
oh yes, if you use it then credit

courylenwillows

Edited Date: 2009-05-21 05:51 am (UTC)

From:

Close, but nope that's not really it. Also it has none of the original trek ladies. OR any of DS9.

From:

yeah, I didn't think it answered your desire... but it was the closest thing I could find. Hopefully someone will make something for you!

From:

I'm thinking it's undoable. Haven't seen it anywhere.

From: