Musing on the (unresloved) Spuffy relationship, canon, fanfic and other related fandom things

[shadowkat]

Rather slow and draggy day. Looking forward to taking off next weekend to the poconos to visit my aunts, who are rather fun. And I haven't seen or spent much time with since I was a small child and they were teenagers. It's all so very nostalagic in a way. Also attempting to draw and then do watercolors from recent photos taken of my neice. We shall see if I can do it. Haven't watercolored or drawn anything seriously for about five years. A bit on the rusty side.

Read a few posts on Spuffy, and the ambivalence many people felt towards BTVS's or canon's depiction of the Spuffy or Buffy/Spike relationship. Maybe ambivalence isn't quite the right word? At any rate they were comparing the relationship to one that I was really ambivalent about: Cordelia/Angel. Can't say I disliked them, so much as I was mildly curious and sort of ambivalent. I watched Ats for Wesley, Illyria/Fred, Lilah, sometimes Gunn (in S5 definitely Gunn), Lorne, Drusilla, Darla, and the Spike/Angel relationship. All of which I'm still getting with the possible exception of Wes, Darla and Lilah in the comic books. So, yay, me. I wasn't ambivalent towards Buffy/Spike. It remains amongst my favorite television couplings. For a lot of reasons. That said, I remain unsatisfied in how it was resolved or the fact that the writer seems to want to drag out the non-resolution for forever and a day in the comic books. Oh, I know full well what the writer's intent was - but it left me unsatisfied, in much the same way that ATS and the Spike/Angel relationship left me unsatisfied. It was as if both were left sort of up in the air. Brian Lynch - has actually to a degree resolved the S/A relationship to my satisfaction - they exchanged ring-tones at the end of Angel After the Fall and more or less acted like the Sam and Dean of the Whedonverse (except unrelated). Brothers in blood if not by biology. Acknowledging each other's strengths and weaknesses and moving past their rivaleries. Whedon, unlike Lynch, hasn't satisfied me on any of his characters relationships...which is rather aggravating. My tolerance for being teased is only going to last so long before I give up and move on to greener pastures (ie. fanfic - wait, already there.)

The problem with the Spike/Buffy relationship is the ambivalence in the writing towards the end of the series - the writers began to cater to one specific branch of the fandom that I don't like very much. Less said about that the better. And as a result backed away from providing any clear resolution. My problem with fandom's is that often I feel the fandom gets in the way of the story that the writer is trying to tell. Or the writer starts listening to the vocal critics within it. Or the ratings. Or the network execs. Instead of just telling the story they have in their heads. This doesn't happen so much with first novels - because you are unaware of your audience. When you become aware - the audience often gets in the way.
Makes you self-conscious and can be crippling. I've seen it happen a lot. It is so easy, I think, to stand as judge, jury, and executioner on someone else - but not so easy when someone does it to you. I often wonder how many fans could handle the criticism they've thrown at others - if it were in turn thrown at them? I don't know if I could. I hate criticism. And experience has taught me, that I am not alone in that. It is worth pondering I think.

At any rate, while on the one hand I find the whole "I love you", and "no, you don't" sequence rather fascinating and touching, on the other - it left the story unresolved or hanging, because it could be interpreted in one too many ways. Sometimes Whedon is a bit too poetical in his storytelling. Leaving things far too open to interpretation - which while fun on one hand is aggravating on the other.

I can argue that it is resolved (but don't feel like it right now and please no, need to do it yourself - I've read the royal anna's essays and elsi's and written my own on the ATPO board and in this journal regarding the issue ad naseum - the skinny is, their statements were what they believed the other one needed to hear in order to do what needed to be done. Spike said - no, you don't - in response to her - "I love you", because he knew he was dying. He knew he wasn't coming out that place alive. He was burning from the inside out and felt it. He also knew what she went through when she thought she killed Angel, when Riley left, and heck he loss her. He did not want her to go through the hell he did mourning her. He wanted her to move on, to move up into the light. He was more or less saying the same thing to Buffy in Chosen that Angel does in Graduation Day, except he means it. Unlike Angel he does cut her loose. He doesn't return. He doesn't tell her he is alive. He doesn't stalk her or spy on her, except when he discovers that Angel is doing it and follows Angel. From Spike's pov he is giving her a gift, he is letting her go. It's what she needs from him in order to leap out of the hellmouth and into her life. And I think Buffy understood that. It's why she does leave and why she does clasp his hand, and why she is smiling at the end. She knew he gave her a gift. She also knew that he knew she loved him, but by the same token, he told her that if he did not want her to love him - he did not want her love, if it only kept her back.)And that nothing more needs to be said. And it even did the impossible which is satisfy two factions of the fandom which were at complete odds over the relationship. As well as unsatisfy two factions that were at complete odds. Brilliant that.

But...but...but...it did not satisfy me on an emotional level. Intellectually maybe. But not emotionally. If Spike had stayed dead? Maybe. If Buffy referenced his loss and how she felt towards him? Maybe. That was what was lacking. I never cry in Chosen, because it doesn't satisfy the emotions, just the intellect. I have the same issues with Anya's death, which felt to a degree swept underneath the rug - although I tend to be generally ambivalent regarding Anya as a character. I needed a sense of resolution towards those deaths that I never really got outside of fanfic and a comic about Xander visiting Dracula.

I sort of wish Whedon didn't feel the need to satisfy both factions and now that the series is over and he's doing the comics - he'd bite the bullet and resolve the stupid thing. If he can spend five pages on Xander and Dawn, three issues on OZ and Willow (which was resolved) plus not one but five episodes resolving Angel and Buffy, he can give me one page that resolves Spike and Buffy. One panel. And I'm sorry Always Darkest wasn't it.

Don't get me wrong - I don't need her to ride off into the sunset with Spike or have wild monkey sex. I don't think that works in Whedon's tale for either character for a lot of reasons. What I want is a brief little scene in which she lets him know much as she did Angel that she cares about him, loves him, but acknowledges that their paths just can't be together right now...maybe some day, but not now. She doesn't know. But she will always care about him and love him and that she misses him and if things could be different...and I'd like him to say somewhat the same thing. What I want in short is a scene similar to the one between Angel and Buffy in Chosen, or Buffy and Riley in As You Were but without all the posturing.
That's all. Not hard to write. That would resolve the story in an "emotionally" satisfying way.

But I don't think the writer will do it. I don't know what he will do.

On the fanfic side of the fence...I find myself enjoying the alternate universe fics, not mind you the everybody's human which read like regurgiated plots of every romance novel I've ever read in my life, but the what-if tales. What-if they did this instead of that. And the fill in the gap tales. And the what if Buffy met Spike after he survived hell-LA, what then.
In some respects the fanfic of Spuffy is more emotionally satisfying than the canon. While the canon is more intellectually satisfying than the fanfic. It's weird - I wish I could find intellectually and emotionally satisfying...and in some fanfics, I do come close. I myself wrote one in an attempt to obtain that emotional and intellectual satisfaction, as well as address some of the negative reactions I'd gotten to the relationship. I think when you hate something someone else loves - and have moral issues with it to boot, it is a good thing to keep in mind that they may well feel the same way, and justifiably so, about something you love and adore. Our mileage differs. Tolerating that difference is sometimes I think the real challenge we all face in fandom and the one we seem to fail on the most.

Well, I'll end this spontaneous and unedited musing on that random note tonight. Bed calls.
Make of it what you will.

Comments

[2maggie2.livejournal.com]

For me they both meant what they said in the hellmouth. But I'm not sure that it makes much difference at the end of the day.

I agree with much of the rest of your post, though. Spike and Buffy need to be resolved. Always Darkest was the opposite of resolution, since it once again stepped cleanly around the question of whether she even knows he's alive. (I'd say it's obvious she doesn't; but enough people think it's obvious that she does for me to conclude with certainty that the question hasn't been answered). I don't believe Joss would leave it unresolved because he thinks it's unimportant. It's possible that he's leaving it unresolved because he's a coward and he doesn't want to face the fandom (problematic whichever way he'd go with it). But I persist in thinking that the silence is pointed and that it means that a shoe is going to drop. It seems to me that there's way too much allusion to Spike in the text for it not to be paid off. We'll see how that works out!

I have your problem with fanfic and the unbearable tension between what's emotionally satisfying and what's intellectually (or dramatically) satisfying. I've resolved the tension by opting for the dramatically satisfying bittersweet ending -- and pretty much moving on from any emotional investment in them as a couple.

Unless the Spike shoe drops, Spike's story is over as far as I'm concerned because I don't buy Lynch or the IDW-verse as canon, and there are a ton of Spikes out in fanfiction that I'd rather read about. As for Buffy, I'm up in the air. Right now comic Buffy isn't really Buffy for me... mostly because important information is being withheld about her. So I'm waiting to see what it all looks like when the season is over.

[londonkds.livejournal.com]

I'm wondering if there isn't a contractual issue with using characters who were Angel regulars, even for only the last season, in Buffy comics. Maybe IDW "owns" Spike at the moment and won't let him be used in the Dark Horse comics.

[2maggie2.livejournal.com]

Joss has secured the right to at least some limited use of the characters (see the panel in issue #3). It'd have been a trivial matter to give us the page Shadowkat is asking for. Joss *did* give that page to the task of resolving Faith and Robin -- so we know he knows how to do it.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

2maggie2 is correct. But it is admittedly confusing what they can and can't do with Angel and Spike. IDW has provided Whedon with permission to use the two characters with the express caveat that he won't do it in a way that unduly compromises IDW's stories. Here's where it gets confusing - Scott Allie keeps insisting that since Spike and Angel were part of the Buffyverse - that Dark Horse has rights to them as well and since the two verses are separate they can do what they please. This contradicts what Whedon has stated and the agreement Whedon has made with IDW according to interviews.

While I don't necessarily trust either source, I trust Whedon more than Allie on this one - since Whedon is the one telling the story and Whedon may well know the rights sitch better.
Allie is an editor with Dark Horse not a copyrights manager.
And from my own experience in rights and permissions, editors really are ignorant when it comes to copyright. And Allie has made some huge mistakes already, which he's been slapped for in this regard, backtracking quickly.

So...my guess is Whedon can do a scene like say what he did between Robin and Faith in the Faith comic but he can't make Spike or Angel - Twilight or some major/pivotal character that would interfer with IDW's stories in a major way - without getting approval from IDW first and IDW is not going to give him approval for that.

Clarification on how I view canon

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I don't buy Lynch or the IDW-verse as canon,

Actually neither do I. I should clarify how I looked at canon since it appears to differ from other's definitions. I define it a lot more narrowly than most people do with lots of subcategories.

1. The Television Series - Angel and Buffy TV canon

2. The Whedonverse Comic Canon - this is how Whedon would have personally continued the television series with the input from numerous writers/artists/editors who had zip to do with the tv series but were fans of it, and no input from the actors, producers, and writers who had a lot to do with it. (ie. Brad Meltzer, Vaughn, Jeff Loeb, Scott Allie, Joan Chen, and Georges Jeanty for the comics, sans/without input from David Fury, Marti Noxon, Tim Minear, Gareth whatshislastnamebecauseIforget, Greenwalt, David Solomon, all the actors, Drew Greenberg, Rebecca Rand Kirshner..)

3. Dark Horse Buffy and Angel comics canon - those are the stories that were potentially approved by either Whedon or Fox based on some boilerplate but aren't by Whedon at all and their own separate entity. (Sort of like reading published fanfic in my opinion.)

4. Brian Lynch's Spike Comics, Dru One-shot or rather two-shot, and Gunn - these are based on Lynch, Urru, to a degree Juliet Landau, Stephen Mooney, other artists, and the IDW editors view of how the Angel series and these character's journey's would continue. (As far as I can tell the only input from Whedon is he enjoyed reading them and liked Lynch's take on the character of Spike and the universe initially - but that does not mean that this is how Whedon would have continued their stories nor does it make it part of the Whedonverse comic canon. I call it Lynch's take on the Whedonverse comic canon. Or published fanfic if you prefer.)

4. IDW's Lynch/Whedon/Urru Angel After the Fall comics. (note I am not including Spike After the Fall - because Whedon did not to my knowledge provide comments or input on those issues. I may be wrong about that. But I doubt it. I see Spike After the Fall as more or less all Lynch and Urru.) According to IDW and Whedon's initial interviews on the topic - these are part of the Whedonverse Comics Canon on BTVS and ATS. What is slightly confusing here is Whedon stated after the comics came out and IDW claimed canon, that no, not really or well they were for Angel but maybe not for Buffy. (in other words, he did the same thing he sort of did with the tv shows, which I also found confusing - which is whenever the two shows canons did logically fit, he'd say well they are in two different universes or separate shows. ARRGH. Sorry no. You don't get to be wishy washy about this sort of thing. Make up your mind! So until someone with IDW as well Whedon himself (in confirmation with IDW) says clearly and definitely otherwise - I'm taking the Angel After the Fall comics as part of Whedon's BTVS/ATS comics canon. Note it is only Angel After the Fall I see in that regard, and since technically none of that stuff actually happened except in the characters memories...Whedon gave himself a way out. He can insert them in his Buffy comics without referring Hell-LA because Hell-LA never happened except in everyone's heads. Clever that, also a bit annoying from a fan/reader perspective. TV and comic book writers are incredibly annoying in how they like to retcon things.

So long story short? I sort of agree with you. Where we disagree is a minor subjective bit - which is I like Lynch's Spike fanfic and you don't. But I don't see it as canon. It just happens to be fanfic that turns me on enough to purchase it.;-) As for the Angel After the Fall series? I don't think it matters whether it is canon or not, since Lynch and Whedon gave us an ending that makes it loop in on itself. They may remember it, but as far as the world is concerned it did not happen. (sort of a gutless compromise - where IDW can treat it as canon, while Dark Horse can pretend it isn't - since Dark Horse's characters have no memory of it and it did not happen, while IDW's characters all remember it and to them it did.)

Re: Clarification on how I view canon

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Ugh, I shouldn't do this at work during lunch breaks or without proofing first - tons of typos.

Example: "in other words, he did the same thing he sort of did with the tv shows, which I also found confusing - which is whenever the two shows canons did logically fit, he'd say well they are in two different universes or separate shows. "

That sentence makes no sense. "IT should be whenever the two shows canons did NOT logically fit, he'd say well they are in two different universes or separate shows." TV writers and comic book writers are notorious for doing this with their multiple issues. I always find it annoying. They basically let the two shows universes cross over and fit whenever it is conveinent for their story, and retcon all the times it isn't.
Which makes following tv and comic serials headache inducing, particularly if you are watching or collecting spin-offs.

Re: Clarification on how I view canon

[2maggie2.livejournal.com]

We are very close. I actually like Lynch's Spike IF I take him as one of the many possible fanfic Spike's. Not my favorite, but entertaining enough. What I won't do is accept Lynch's Spike as canonical Spike.

I read Joss as backtracking on AtF, and since I don't like AtF I project that onto Joss and assume that he was disappointed by how it played out and so tried to find a way to undo any statements he'd made earlier about "canon". But I think you are probably right that Joss just wants to have his cake and eat it too.

I don't think Joss owes squat to IDW... which is obviously plotting along happily without any reference at all to what Joss is doing. Heck, even Armstrong's arc got set up before AtF was done. There's no coherent vision over there. They just have the franchise and are cashing in on it.

My own druthers would be that Joss put in a thread into season 8 that narratively divorces the two verses. Maybe Willow's death bumped the Buffyverse into an alternate timeline (universe) from the IDW verse. Or maybe we point at AtF and find some way to emerge with two universes out of the reset. Again, probably projection -- cause I don't want IDW to have any input at all on the question of what happens to Spike and Angel in the Buffyverse. But Allie did respond to one question about how the two stories will be reconciled by saying that they would be and that when they were we'd see that we were asking the wrong question. In my mind that translates to a revelation where we learn that the two verses are already disjoint so the question is not how they are reconciled but rather how they diverged.

I'm very good at wishful thinking! And it seems so right to me!!

Re: Clarification on how I view canon

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I actually like Lynch's Spike IF I take him as one of the many possible fanfic Spike's. Not my favorite, but entertaining enough. What I won't do is accept Lynch's Spike as canonical Spike.

Oh, I don't accept Lynch's Spike as canon either to be honest.

I don't see how anyone can possibly argue that Lynch's Spike is canon Spike from a logical and objective pov. From a completely objective pov - it just doesn't compute. Sure Whedon may have enjoyed Lynch's take on the character - but it is still "Lynch's" take. Not Whedon's and not James Marsters. Or David Greenwalt. Marti Noxon. David Fury.
Jane Espenson...well you get my point.

I have seen no evidence in interviews that Whedon had input on what Lynch did with Spike.

So, Spike in the Lynch comics is Lynch's version. And he is canon only in the IDW ATS comics universe, not the Whedon comics universe or the Whedon tv universe.

So we actually agree - and it may explain why I like Lynch's take better than you do, because I read it as Lynch's take (or fanfic). I do not see it as Whedon's.
He may like Lynch's take on Spike, may love it in fact, but just as I love the take - it is not mine and it is not Whedon's. Does that make sense?

I read Joss as backtracking on AtF, and since I don't like AtF I project that onto Joss and assume that he was disappointed by how it played out and so tried to find a way to undo any statements he'd made earlier about "canon". But I think you are probably right that Joss just wants to have his cake and eat it too.

I honestly don't think Joss cares that much about ATS or ATF. He more or less admitted that at Cultural Humanist Q&A. ATS was never really Whedon's baby, so much as it was David Greenwalt, Minear, and Bell's.
He got pressured by Fox, IDW and Angel fans to resolve NFA and to move forward with new stories - ie, to say okay, you can tell the Angel After the Fall tale, I'll give input, put my name on it, just leave me alone already. So he chose Lynch to continue the arc - more or less. But I always got the feeling that he was sort of ambivalent about the whole thing. So while it is canon in Whedon comics, I wouldn't take it too seriously, he gave himself a loop-hole. He can to a degree do whatever he wants. Lynch ended the thing on a note that more or less left Spike and Angel where they were in NFA, just without WRH and with a world that likes vampires...and hello, Whedon was already there with Buffy.

I don't think Joss owes squat to IDW... which is obviously plotting along happily without any reference at all to what Joss is doing. Heck, even Armstrong's arc got set up before AtF was done. There's no coherent vision over there. They just have the franchise and are cashing in on it.

Outside of few copyright related issues, you are correct. He is limited in what he can do to the extent that it hurts IDW's revenue or story in a major way. (eg. He can't make Spike or Angel Twilight and he can't kill them off unless he does something to show the two universes don't affect each other.)

Eh..I only buy Lynch's Angel issues or Lynch's Angelverse comics. I won't read the others. And I view them as a sort of fanfic, not canon. IDW is playing, not plotting.

About Spike in the Comics...

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I don't believe Joss would leave it unresolved because he thinks it's unimportant. It's possible that he's leaving it unresolved because he's a coward and he doesn't want to face the fandom (problematic whichever way he'd go with it).

True. Not sure about this myself to be honest.

But I persist in thinking that the silence is pointed and that it means that a shoe is going to drop. It seems to me that there's way too much allusion to Spike in the text for it not to be paid off. We'll see how that works out!

I'm picking up the same patterns you are. Up until your response, I was beginning to think I was the only one. Also in interviews Whedon has stated that he consider Spike and Angel the big guns and will use them but carefully.

See here's the thing - what needs to be resolved is not Spike's feelings regarding Buffy, but Buffy's regarding Spike. We already know how Spike feels, and how Spike dealt with it. Spike has dealt with Buffy - he has said goodbye and done the manly thing. But Buffy has not emotionally dealt with Spike.

I just rewatched the series - and what hit me was that in S7 the only person that Buffy connected with emotionally was Spike. He gave her strength. She let her guard down with him, let herself be vulnerable. She doesn't do that with anyone else. She's leader girl with everyone else, including Angel who she kisses. She doesn't let any of them see her cry. She doesn't let them see her doubts and fears. She doesn't sleep until she is with Spike. Then he dies. And it is because of her. It is because of the amulet she gave him to wear and the fact that she told him to stay. He tells her not to feel guilty about it. But when she loses him...it's both liberating and painful. Because this was someone who understood her, who she could be herself with, let down her guard...

Buffy's only human. And the fact that she does feel guilt regarding it is underlined in her dialogue with Satsu - where she states that everyone who loves her dies, in her dream where Xander's head comes off when she goes to embrace him, and in Always Darkest...

Also, there's this huge theme in S8 about how disconnected Buffy feels. That she's not connected and alone. While everyone else in her group is doing the opposite. She tries to connect with Satsu, but can't, she is the leader and she knows Satsu will die under her command, because of her - just like Spike did.

Then we have the whole vampires yay! slayers evil! theme going on. With Harmony of all people at the head of it. And Harmony was connected to Spike.

Plus in Time of Your Life - Dark Willow emphasizes Buffy's past relationships with two vampires, not one, two.

Note she never mentions Spike's name. When Andrew mentions it, she's silent. With Satsu she refers to him indirectly. It's like she's avoiding it or has chosen to deal with it by pushing it aside.

This is hard to explain, but I think somehow Buffy's unresolved feelings regarding Spike and his death are related to the thematic arc this season regarding her feeling of being separate from everyone, that she's done all the wrong things, and her guilt. Her inability to connect. I think he is part of her emotional arc and his absence is deliberate - it feels like negative space. Like something she doesn't want to deal with. But I could be wrong, it's more a gut feeling than anything else.

Re: About Spike in the Comics...

[2maggie2.livejournal.com]

Well this is my favorite topic, so watch me wax long! (We totally agree, so this is all chiming in and tossing in other supporting evidence).

1. FWIW we've got one other strong allie at BF -- Xavier Zane, who is actually a Buffy/Xander fan (I think). He totally thinks there's a deliberate negative space around Spike and that it has to pay off. (As he put it to me, a failure to pay it off wouldn't kill season 8 for him, but it would be #1 on his WTF parade). angearia used to be strong on the notion that Spike has to matter in season 8's plot -- but since Allie's most recent Q&A she seems to think Spike won't show until season 9 and hasn't really said what that does to the negative Spike space situation. So 1.5 allies! We are still, though, the happy few who think this.

2. I couldn't agree more that the resolution of Buffy's feelings are what's at stake and that the failure to do so promptly means that they are an important element in the current plot. People critique me for beating this drum because I'm quite candid about being a pure Spikeophile, but with respect to season 8 my real argument has been that it matters because it matters to Buffy's story. You put it more clearly than I ever have, I think. Buffy is not the sort who walks away from everything she had with Spike (whether or not he's just a dear friend or her Twu Wuv guy) unscathed. No. Way. Add in the fact that Spike's sacrifice is bound up with the slayer spell that is the explicit focus of season 8 and I think that her feelings for him *have* to be resolved (cause Buffy's private life always mirrors her other issues).

3. I hadn't specifically linked Buffy's massive guilt about the bad things that happen to others to Spike because Buffy tends to feel guilty about these things. But you're right. The hellmouth would have amped it up considerably and that could well be what we are seeing.

4. My own sense of absence, though is textual. I've made the argument a lot. See this thread (especially my two "looking for clues" posts -- though the exchange with XZ on the proceeding page lays out some of the argument as well):

http://buffyforums.net/forums/showthread.php?t=8566&page=3

See also my post way back in January about Spike being likely to show up.

http://2maggie2.livejournal.com/1687.html

There are just way too many allusions to Spike for me to think it's an accident. The ones that dovetail exactly with your argument include:

1. Spike's absence in Buffy's dreamspace cubes page which covers everything else of importance in her life. As if it's all repressed and all she'll let herself think about is "that sex".

2. Buffy's reaction to Ethan's use of 'pet' presumably amped because he was dressed in a way that teases Spike's appearance.

3. The fact that Spike teasers do seem to crop up when Buffy's budding feelings for Xander come up. Take the "I miss SD" page, where we get the first real cue about Buffy's feelings about Xander (her use of a Xanderism, great muppity Oden) in a line that almost certainly does refer to Spike. She also uses a Spikeism on that page (suck it up summers). More obviously is her dream about knocking of Xander's head and specifically her use of the term "oh balls" which is what Spike said in the same alley way scene where Buffy very nearly did knock of Spike's head.

Then we have the references that don't necessarily tie to feelings of guilt: Satsu echoing Spike's role in Buffy's life. (Punkish right hand person with unrequited love for Buffy); The very location of the first battle being in a church where crosses are explicitly mentioned; Harth's use of the term slayer of slayers to refer to Buffy; the spike Spike? joke in #2 of Retreat. etc. etc.

Something is up. Buffy's unresolved feelings have to be a big part of it. And if you put a gun to my head, I'd go out on a limb and say it's going to fold into the main storyline about Twilight and/or the slayer spell somehow.

Re: About Spike in the Comics...

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Hee, I think this may be my favorite topic as well. (Also, ditto on the Spikeophile accusations, I've gotten more than my share as well,b/c I more or less feel the same way that you do about that character.)

1.He totally thinks there's a deliberate negative space around Spike and that it has to pay off. (As he put it to me, a failure to pay it off wouldn't kill season 8 for him, but it would be #1 on his WTF parade).

Exactly! or Word!

angearia used to be strong on the notion that Spike has to matter in season 8's plot -- but since Allie's most recent Q&A she seems to think Spike won't show until season 9 and hasn't really said what that does to the negative Spike space situation.

Has it ever occurred to anyone that maybe the reveal of when Spike will appear or if he appears would give away a major plot point? I mean Allie is in the business of selling comic books - why would he give away spoilers? The SlayAlive's with Allie remind me of the Bronze Betas with David Fury - who like Allie was adept at pissing off fans and misleading them. He had people in 2002 (S6) convinced that Spike was getting his chip removed not going after a soul. You can't get reliable spoilers from a comic book editor - come on.

2. Add in the fact that Spike's sacrifice is bound up with the slayer spell that is the explicit focus of season 8 and I think that her feelings for him *have* to be resolved (cause Buffy's private life always mirrors her other issues).

The sacrifice and the slayer spell have another link.
Willow. Compare Chosen to Get it Done. In both episodes, Buffy is asking her two lieut, the most powerful of her allies who she really can't do this without - to unleash the power within. In Get-it-Done they release the darkness to get her back. Their demon side. While Buffy is refusing to take more power inside her and she apologises to Willow for it. In Chosen she asks them to release the light - Willow releases the spell in the scythe and empowers everyone, Spike releases the power of his soul and destroys everything undead including himself.

Now Buffy fears that she did the wrong thing regarding the spell - that telling Willow to unleash her power, to be the witch - will lead her to killing Willow in the future. Meanwhile she's being criticized around the world for killing vampires and the one leading the charge against Buffy on reality tv is Spike's ex-girl friend, Harmony.

Spike and the potential slayers closed the hellmouth and killed the vampires. BUT - dead things don't stay buried apparently - who are the first bad guys to pop up? Warren and Amy. And where are they? In the Sunnydale Crater or the hellmouth that Spike left behind. And what is the spell Amy uses? You can only be awoken by True Love's kiss (note not Xander or Willow) nor by someone Buffy necessarily love's in return, but someone who loves and would do anything for Buffy regardless of what she feels for them. Satsu.
Someone who is like Buffy - a slayer. Who fights alongside her. And takes orders from her, as well as gives them. Someone like what Spike was to her before there was another slayer around.

TBC

Re: About Spike in the Comics...

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

3. Buffy's guilt...

Always Darkest and the kiss between Xander and Dawn in the last issue reminded me of something, perhaps because I saw it so recently...and that is the kiss that Spike witnesses between Buffy and Angel in End of Days and Chosen. A kiss that he does confront her on and almost kicks her out of the basement regarding, but backs off because he loves her anyway. The kiss that occurs in End of Days - happens not long after Spike and Buffy have a conversation that is rather emotional and raw. He admits to her that she is the only person he's ever in a 100 plus years connected with. And with complete openess and vulnerability admits that it terrifies him that she doesn't see him or feel the same way...and if that is true, stake him now. She tells him that she was there with him. That he gave her that strength. He asks what does that mean, and Buffy pulls back and covers, saying does it have to mean anything? Spike lets it go, getting more than he's gotten before her in the past and more or less satisfied until that is, the Buffy and Angel kiss.

I've always wondered what the writer was doing when he put that kiss in there. He more or less explained it from Angel's pov and he's explained it from Spike's pov (it demonstrates that Spike would have saved the world regardless and unlike the old Spike, would not turn against her out of jealousy. Hence the First Evil's appearance next to him while he watches.) And he explained what it meant for Buffy. So I get that.
But...

In Chosen you have this:

Buffy: I love you.
Spike: No (pause - where he looks meaningfully in her eyes with compassion and complete unconditional love) you don't. (looks away) But thanks for saying it.
Now go, it's for me to do the clean up.

And she, crying, finally lets go of his hand and dashes to the top. She rides the top of the bus and watchs the devastation of Sunnydale behind her. Then is the first to hop off and run towards the crater. The only thing she says, the only question she answers in that scene is Giles' - which is half muttered (and she's asked several everything from what will you do now, Buffy or how great is this, etc).

Giles: Who did this.
Buffy: Spike.

Okay, now lets skip a year into the future. Buffy is dreaming. She's been knocked to the ground by Caleb - the last time she fought Caleb was in End of Days, right before she kissed Angel. Caleb is knocked aside, just as he was when he attacked her in End of Days and Angel knocked him aside. She hears a voice. It is Spike's but she isn't sure. Say's I missed you. The frame widens, Angel appears, and says which one? Then he and Spike kiss in the same pose, exactly the same pose as she and Angel did. Even the same angle almost.

Then we have last issue, with Buffy having a deep and emotionally satisfying conversation with Xander, where she feels she can open herself up to him. She takes his advice, confronts Willow, then returns as he advised to tell him what happened...maybe more, it is not clear - and catches him in a tight embrace with Dawn - again in the same pose as she and Angel had been.

Whedon has done this not once but twice now. If he'd done it once - just with Xander and Dawn, I wouldn't have noticed. Or if he had her come in on them differently...but the Xander/Dawn kiss follows an emotional connection between Xander and Buffy. Just as the Buffy/Angel kiss followed an emotional connection between Buffy and Spike.

Afterwards, Buffy is all business. She's shut down again.

Re: About Spike in the Comics...

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I think it's more than guilt. It's a combination of factors.

It's clear from the comics and most of S7 - that much like Angel in S3, before he returned, Buffy can't talk to anyone about Spike. None of them liked Spike. They all thought she was crazy for liking him. Giles tried to kill him. They accused her of putting them in danger for him. And when his name came up, her friends went quiet. Andrew was the only Spike fan. And note Andrew is the only one who mentions Spike by name and is the only one that we know of that has seen Spike alive.

Andrew's comment regarding him - a throw away line is "I think you totally traded up, I'm all team Spike" or something like that. Why? It's almost as if he is attempting to bond with her about something he knows everyone else is negative on?

4. Something is up. Buffy's unresolved feelings have to be a big part of it. And if you put a gun to my head, I'd go out on a limb and say it's going to fold into the main storyline about Twilight and/or the slayer spell somehow

Agreed. Up until Harmonic Divergence, I wasn't sure.
Then I thought okay just imagining things after Always Darkest, but the last issue? I see a definite pattern emerging here.

What worries me is that Whedon will make Spike - Twilight. Because that is the obvious conclusion. Or makes the most sense from all those teasers. But from a character perspective and a canon perspective - it doens't make sense at all. It has to be plausible after all - and considering the events of Angel S5 - Spike as Twilight makes absolutely no sense. Twilight acts nothing like Spike - if anything he reminds me more of Adam or Caleb. He lacks Spike's evil sense of humor and it would a complete regression of a character arc that the writer is proud of and has stated as much, recently. Also there is IDW to consider, who might take exception to Whedon making one of their comic headliners into the major villain in the Buffy comics. Although admittedly, there are ways around that.

There are however other options. Twilight could have Spike as a captive. Harmony could? He could be a secret weapon. Any number of things. Or Twilight could be another reality's version of Spike?

I don't know. But you are right, something's up.

[shapinglight]

But I don't think the writer will do it

You and me both. I'm afraid that, unlike Maggie, I don't think the other shoe will ever drop in the comic. I think Joss considers Spike/Buffy already resolved and sees no need to bookend things the way he did with Buffy/Angel in the show.

I just don't think he's interested (which is not me saying he doesn't like Spike, btw, because some people do seem to interpret my POV as meaning that, just that he's said all he has to say about him).

Would wholly agree that Chosen doesn't quite work as a satisfying conclusion given that Spike came back, and like you feel that is partly because Joss was influenced by fan opinion (though I'm sure he would deny it) and afraid of sending the 'wrong' message.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

You and me both. I'm afraid that, unlike Maggie, I don't think the other shoe will ever drop in the comic. I think Joss considers Spike/Buffy already resolved and sees no need to bookend things the way he did with Buffy/Angel in the show.

I'm of two minds regarding this.

I see the same plot pattern that Maggie is seeing. And the same odd mentions of Spike or circumventing of mentioning Spike that leads me to believe that while Whedon may be finished with Spike, he is not finished with what Spike meant to or his relationship with or his thematic meaning to Buffy's emotional arc. He appears from the pattern that I'm picking up in the comics, which apparently I'm not alone in picking up since Maggie is also picking up on it - for a while I thought I was imagining things or wishful thinking, that he's not finished with Buffy's emotional state in regards to Spike, how the relationship ended etc. Which makes sense - since that is what has not been resolved. He pointedly resolved Spike's feelings towards Buffy in Angel S5. But he has not resolved Buffy's feelings towards Spike to his own satisfaction. If he had - we wouldn't have Always Darkest pop up, or Andrew's random mention, or the teasing in the plot. Or Buffy's apparent avoidance of the topic.

So..while the relationship is somewhat resolved on one end, it is not on the other. ie. It is resolved for Spike but not for Buffy. (if that makes sense). Just as in Chosen - Buffy resolved her relationship with Angel, but he didn't resolve his with Buffy until the Girl in Question.

I just don't think he's interested (which is not me saying he doesn't like Spike, btw, because some people do seem to interpret my POV as meaning that, just that he's said all he has to say about him).

I would agree, except with the caveat that he is interested in the character to the extent that the character still pertains to Buffy's emotional arc. Note Buffy can't connect to anyone. She hasn't been able to truly connect with anyone since Chosen. They've made a HUGE deal out of this. When she attempts to it is almost too late. The last person Buffy was able to truly emotionally and physically connect to was Spike (and I don't mean in a sexual manner). And he burned up.

Spike, on the other hand, doesn't have that problem - he's moved on. But I'm not sure she has allowed herself to move on or to risk connection.

[shapinglight]

I guess we'll see. I've just read your convo with Maggie and am afraid I'm still not convinced. I just don't think that the mentions of Spike in the comic suggest anything else. They are just mentions.

But we'll see. I'd rather you were right, for obvious reasons.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Like I said of two minds...I really don't know what the writers will do. I don't really trust them...

And I can argue that I'm reading too much into it. But, there's weird drops and hints here and there...I don't know. You are correct, we shall see.

But hey, at least I know I won't be the only one who is disappointed. And if I get too disappointed, it's a simple enough matter for me to stop subscribing.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

(Somewhat off topic - I screwed up on my Lie to Me synopsis - apparently I didn't watch the ending. Saw it tonight. JM does die in it. He's shot at the very end and carried off in a body bag - the role last less than maybe 10 min. altogether. The poor guy has the worst luck in roles before and after Buffy/Angel. He got the same small roles prior to the series. With any luck Caprica will be better.)

On Chosen? The writers more or less admitted in the commentary and interviews at the time that they were afraid of sending the wrong message - because of ahem, that faction.

[shapinglight]

With any luck Caprica will be better.)

God, I hope so, but Caprica being from the BSG stable, if they've slated JM's character to die then he will, no matter how much they like him.

The writers more or less admitted in the commentary and interviews at the time that they were afraid of sending the wrong message - because of ahem, that faction.

Yes, it's gathering this sort of second hand at the time that has put me off ever listening to Joss's commentary for Chosen. I haven't and probably never will. It's also this that makes me still consider any suggestion of Joss revisiting Buffy/Spike in the comic unlikely.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

You should actually listen to it, he explains the Chosen scene and the kiss rather well. He also more or less states in Chosen that Spike loved Buffy and Buffy loved Spike.

It's not what you think. My guess is Whedon was fine but some of the other writers...*cough*Fury*cough* may not have been.

[shapinglight]

I dunno about Fury. He does seem to have changed his mind re: Spike quite drastically, though it was post LMPTM, so maybe not at this juncture.

It's probably one of those things we'll never know for sure.