Interesting Buffy Fandom tidbits - when should a writer cater to fans, if at all?

[shadowkat]

1. Nicholas Brendan according to the SlayAlive post does not like the Dawn/Xander pairing.
In related news, at Hallowhedon, Brendan revealed that he and Gellar talked about Xander and Buffy getting together and pitched it. Whedon said no. And apparently Whedon had planned on killing Xander off in S7, but the other writers talked him out of it - stating the fans would be *really* upset, *vehementally* upset.

They weren't wrong about that - but it does bring up a question that I'd like to throw out there: Should fans have a say in the plotting, etc of a story? Should the writers have convinced Whedon to cater to their fans? Should it matter that it would upset the fans if a character was killed or a beloved character did a horrible thing? Should a writer EVER cater to his or her fans? And if so, when? And to what extent would catering hurt the story? And what extent does this kill the reality of the story - after all people we love do die, and people we love do horrible things - to what extent should writing reflect that reality and to what extent should it merely entertain and comfort?

Okay that's a lot of questions. I don't know what I think on this right now. I really don't. I know that I wish sometimes the writer would ignore the fans, but other times, I don't. I can argue it both ways to be honest. So feel free to persuade, discuss, etc!

As a sub-thread of that question - to what extent has the internet changed how fans can affect the writing/plot of a tv show, novel, or movie? Is this a good thing, bad thing, or neutral thing??

2. James Marsters on youtube did a really interesting bit on kissing on camera - how difficult it is to do well, how awkward, and how much you have to trust your partner. He said if you do it for pleasure - it looks horrible. So you never enjoy it. And if he had to choose anyone to do it with again it would be John Barrowman - who went out of his way to make Marsters comfortable. Marsters also gives some great hints on how to keep a guy from mauling you - which I already knew but are quite useful - sneeze, step on his foot, elbow him in the gut.

3. Apparently Caprica has three cameras, a bit budget, and is scarey - with great scripts.
Marsters plays a terrorist that everyone is terrified of, and he's been told he's doing rather well. Hmm. Okay, that and the trailer and Eric Stolz is making me really look forward to Caprica. (Of course it helps that I love Espenson's tv writing, and adored BSG).

4. Apparently Georges Jeanty is better at drawing Joss Whedon than Sarah Michelle Gellar, who knew? (Brad Metzler's blog has a picture of Whedon and Buffy together drawn by Jeanty.)

Comments

[shapinglight]

On the other hand, I'm admittedly curious.

Yes, me too, though if it had to happen, I would preferred it to be in TGiQ, simply because YW being AtS's 100th episode, Spike was bound to be shortchanged in it, being the new kid on the block. At least TGiQ was set up to be a silly Spangel romp rather than a landmark episode of the entire show.

As for the AR, I also knew about it around the time of Dead Things. As you can imagine, it did not go down well on the Spike redemptionist boards where I mostly posted. People kept hoping to the day the wild feed broke that there might be some kind of mitigating circumstances, or that Spike would stop himself (I so wish he'd been allowed that) or that he was being mind-controlled by Warren. But no.

Interestingly enough the people who had troubles with the AR and Spike after the AR, also could not watch Dollhouse.

Yes, I've observed this too. Different triggers, I suppose. My own trigger moment is in Entropy. I find it very hard to watch the end of that episode.

I know there are many people who will never forgive Spike because of the AR, and that's why I can't quite forgive Joss for doing it, no matter what comment he was trying to make about soap opera tropes or about rapists not being irredeemable or whatever. I would find it easier to forgive him, though, if the soul quest had been less ambiguous. I know Joss is all about the layers and the ambiguity and the plot twists, but I think in this one instance he was wrong. It needed to be made absolutely clear that Spike went to get his soul back because of remorse. I like the character and I can fanwank what we actually got to explain the way we see him behave in the last three episodes, but those who don't like him aren't going to bother and that's why I wish it had been unambiguous.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

People kept hoping to the day the wild feed broke that there might be some kind of mitigating circumstances, or that Spike would stop himself (I so wish he'd been allowed that) or that he was being mind-controlled by Warren. But no.

Yep me too. I sort of went to the spoilerboards after Wrecked - because I was worried they'd go in that direction. (I'd seen too many soaps in my life time and knew the trope far too well - could see the AR from a mile away and really didn't want it, for the reasons you mentioned.)

Yes, I've observed this too. Different triggers, I suppose. My own trigger moment is in Entropy. I find it very hard to watch the end of that episode.

Hee. Definitely. And I think We may have the same trigger. Haven't found many who do. Dollhouse and AR don't bug me, but the last scene of Entropy and the Xander/Buffy scene in Seeing Red where he goes on about the whole soul bit - makes me wince. As does a good portion of Hells Bells.

People online had troubles with Spike - for me, Xander, Riley and Angel pushed my buttons. Riley in AYW (an episode I still have troubles watching and still yell at the tv set during), Xander in Entropy,
and Angel in IWRY (which pushed my buttons).

I know Joss is all about the layers and the ambiguity and the plot twists, but I think in this one instance he was wrong. It needed to be made absolutely clear that Spike went to get his soul back because of remorse. I like the character and I can fanwank what we actually got to explain the way we see him behave in the last three episodes, but those who don't like him aren't going to bother and that's why I wish it had been unambiguous.

I agree. I think as with Dollhouse that Whedon often "overestimated" his viewers. People are very literal minded and aren't usually aware of nuance nor can be bothered with it. What "they" see is all there is. And in regards to button-pushing or trigger pushing issues or emotional volatile or politically volatile issues - ambiguity is often not the best choice. Because with those issues, people aren't willing to think, so much as react. And they keep on reacting. And as with anything highly emotional or with an intense emotional reaction - Rational thought has left the building.

[shapinglight]

And I think We may have the same trigger. Haven't found many who do

I only know of one other person on my flist, in fact, and haven't met anyone else in all my years in fandom.

I think as with Dollhouse that Whedon often "overestimated" his viewers.

Well, of course, he's playing to all 'levels' as it were. However, that works better in some cases than in others. In this one, it really doesn't work at all. He really couldn't have done anything more damaging to the character of Spike, except perhaps for having the AR be premeditated.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

For most people - the problem with Entropy is the infidelty and they are angry at Spike. For me it is that last scene of the episode - Xander...I yell at the screen every time and I spent half of Seeing Red saying Xander - you totally deserve everything that comes next! (But I haven't met anyone else who got it.)

I think Whedon is a little oblivious to his fanbase or viewer sometimes. He's interested in plot twists and shocking the viewer - surprising them. He wants that gotcha moment. To not be predictable.

But the AR scene from my perspective was predictable and possibly the most cliche thing he'd done. I understood why he did it. I adore what came afterwards - Beneath Me is amongst my favorite episodes, as is Sleeper, Lies, and Never Leave Me.
But, I think he could have gotten there in another way.
A way that would have made it easier for fans of the character to deal with the fans who...for whatever reason decided they could not handle what happened in the scene and wrote the character off as forever irredeemable after that, which I still think is the height of hypocrisy. I well remember defending myself and my love of the character to two women fans at a fanboard in person meeting...it was uncomfortable and awkward. I changed the topic.

Fandom. Sigh. Sometimes, I think I'd have enjoyed the show and still would enjoy it more if I didn't know what some fans thought of it. ;-)

[shapinglight]

For me it is that last scene of the episode - Xander...

Yes, for me too. That scene has very unpleasant RL connotations for me and echoes my own experience.

I well remember defending myself and my love of the character to two women fans at a fanboard in person meeting...it was uncomfortable and awkward. I changed the topic.

God, I'm so glad I've never had to do that. I hate that Joss has put us in the position of having to defend what is basically indefensible if a person persists in seeing it in RL terms and outside the context of the show.

Of course, there are plenty of other moments like that too, but none arouse the same level of fury among fans if you try to defent the character or persist in liking him or liking Spuffy.

There was another outbreak just last week. It makes me so tired.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

That scene has very unpleasant RL connotations for me and echoes my own experience.

Me as well.

I hate that Joss has put us in the position of having to defend what is basically indefensible if a person persists in seeing it in RL terms and outside the context of the show.

We did have a rather engaging debate about it on the atpo board once.

The hypocrisy is what annoys me. I don't think they realize it. They can't see that their favorite character has also done indefensible things. They can't see - the other point of view, all they see is their own and any other view is well, wrong. ;-)

It's hard to write for that type of audience. I used to say online that they were watching the wrong show, and to check out Seventh Heaven.

There was another outbreak just last week. It makes me so tired.

Sigh. It is tiring. And you feel when you engage the person in a discussion that you might as well push the same rock up the same cliff. It's futile.