Buffy S8 - Beautiful Sunset Revisted - is Twilight Redeemable or even Justified?

[shadowkat]

So, after the Twilight spoiler...where Allie and others are suggesting that Twilight isn't really a villian or big bad, and that he is redeemable. I went back and re-read the issue where Buffy and Twilight fight, and Twilight critically injures Satsu - putting her in the hospital. I was curious to see if it was possible to redeem Twilight or see Twilight in a positive light, without sending an anti-feminist and sexist, not to mention misogynistic message. I don't believe it is, but I'm open to other views on this score.



Buffy to Satsu: People who love me tend to oh, die...maybe go to a hell dimension, or burn up, or they start letting vamps suck on em and they leave, they all leave, even my friends, sooner or later everybody realizes there's something wrong...something wrong with me, or around me, or... Wow. Did not mean to end up there. (she's crying).

Twilight then throws a boulder at her. And she's bleeding from the nose, injured.

Twilight: The Chosen One Always in Pain...and always complaining. Just like a girl. (This is where he critically injurs Satsu, by breaking her nose, then kicking her into a stone crypt two feet or more away.)

[Buffy goes to slice up the center with the Scythe]

Twilight: I know that move slayer. Le me show you some of mine. (He takes her by the scruff of her shirt in front and pulls her skyward, they are flying.) Understand this girl. You cannot fight me.

Buffy: Understand this ass-clown - I probably will anyway. (she puts the scythe in choke-hold around his neck).

Twilight : I'd expect no less. But I watched you and the witch - it seemed you didn't like flying.

Buffy: I get used to things real fast.

Twilight: Very well then, let's ride. Do you know that I actually came here to talk? (he crashes her into a church) But there you were ...going on about how hard it is for you, and well..I just hate to see you cry. (he is about to stab her with church steeple)

Buffy: Go ahead. Church me. Plenty more where that came from.

Twilight: Well that's the issue isn't it? One Slayer. Was all right. But all these girls...the world can't contain them and they will suffer for that. I'll not kill you now. My first gift is my last. I know that you meant well. But you have brought about disaster. And it falls to me to avert it.

Buffy: Twilight. That's you.

Twilight: Have you made a difference? Have your slayers helped change anything in this world?
Have they helped you?

Twilight to his subordinates/army comrades who have asked why he didn't kill her: That's been done. To Little Effect. The trick is to strip her of her greatest armor...her moral certainity. However hapless she may be about her personal life. This girl has always firmly believes she was on the side of right. And there's one thing I've learned about the slayer...

Meanwhile Buffy is comforting Satsu, and has taken Satsu to the hospital. Both women are covered in bandages. Satsu feels she's failed Buffy in some way, but Buffy reassures her and gives her strength. Then she has the following discussion with Xander...asking him Twilight's questions:

Buffy: Are we doing any good? We've been fighting more demons, but...but it just seems like there's more demons to fight and what is that because of us?

Xander: Buffy, turn around. I live with a bunch of slayers. Dozens of girls who are so filled up with purpose, with confidence they didn't have before...the walls are vibrating with it. I can't sleep the place is so charged....

What you've created here is a lot more than just monster fighters.

Buffy: Connection. Why can't I feel it.

Xander: Maybe you don't get to. Maybe the leader, the girl who brings it all together, is the one that has to give that up.

So my question is - is Twilight redeemable here? Is there any way of interpreting Twilight's dialogue to Buffy as anything other than sexism personified? He seems to want her to remain the one slayer, one lone superhero, like himself. Not share the power - because world can't handle it?

Is there another interpretation? Because I can't see how Twilight can be seen as anything other than an anti-hero. If he is meant to be heroic in any way, or is redeemed, what is that saying?

This issue and the one's that follow seem to state the opposite. Twilight in the Retreat arc attacks a bunch of powerless people, who he knows powered down and gave their power to the earth. He kills them and his own people without seeming to care. Earlier, he engineers either Faith or Gigi's death in No Future For You. And in A Long Way Home - he makes it possible for Amy and Warren to capture Willow and torture her. He's also responsible for countless deaths in Tokyo, not to mention elsewhere.

How is Twilight any different than Angelus or Adam? Is there any difference? Both see themselves as the hired gun, the chosen one to take down Buffy and change the world to fit their desires and their perspective - only difference is Twilight appears to want to restore order or the status quo (a la Wolf Ram and Hart) while Angelus and Adam wanted chaos.

And if he is just a pawn or puppet of the Powers That Be or God - does that excuse his actions? How does he know that's what the Powers or God wants? If you have the best intentions, does that make you right? Can good be achieved through evil? Do the ends ever justify the means?

What about Buffy? Outside of the robbery...and maybe stealing a sub, has she really hurt people? Or is she trying to empower them, give them the ability to make their own choices?
To decide their own fate?

Granted Buffy is far from perfect and empowering all the potential slayers does have dicey consequences in some respects, but with the onslaught of vampires...and demons, doesn't it make sense? And what is so wrong with these girls having power? Why should just one have it?



[ETA: WARNING - While the post is free of the Twilight reveal spoiler, the comments and discussion below are NOT. Do not read the comments if you do not wish to be spoiled. The post can be discussed with or without the spoiler.

ETA2:I'm very spoiled on Buffy S8, so no worries from my perspective. Don't have time to respond now or engage, since at work and very busy. Will come back later.]

Comments

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Hee, I admittedly view Angel as a darker figure than most fans, possibly even the writers. I read Not Fade Away for example as The Wild Bunch's Last Stand - more an anti-hero tale than a hero one. I saw Angel as an anti-hero/tragic hero a la John Lock (Lost) in a noir horror fantasy.

so I hope it's door # 3, which is that we don't have the facts of the situation straight somehow....Allie says we haven't yet seen the enormity of what is going on.

I agree, I hope that you are correct.

Allie also states we are asking the wrong questions...

Well, I have a lot of questions. The main one is..."where is Spike???"

I just reread the Long Journey Home comic - and Ethan Raine is dressed exactly like Spike, complete with Duster and red shirt, he uses Spike's endearments, much to Buffy's increasingly irritation and annoyance. She tells him not to call her my love or love - more than once, to which he responds - it's just British slang like pet, which he calls her as she shudders stating don't call me that either.
Next scene is her sex fanasty of being wedged between Spike and Angel. Then Raine says she's not looking in the right place...they fall into the mouth of Sunnydale crater, there's a huge cage and lots of X's - which obviously mean Amy, and Ethan's cell, where she later finds Ethan - the only one who knew what was going on to help her - shot through the eye.
So my question is why the hell did Ethan jump into her dream?
Ethan Raine is a trickester character - he is to Giles, what well, Faith is to Buffy, Spike is to Angel...He celebrates the goddess chaos or Saga Vasuki, just as Willow does, and to a degree Spike.

For a while I thought Raine meant that Giles was Twilight and that's what he was trying to warn Buffy about. But why the Spikisms?

Also Allie says...in more than one interview that Joss's stories are always more about the character relationships and character's emotional arcs.

So I looked back at Dawn's problems. She tells Xander she cheated on Kenny with his roommate, Nick - a bad boy, who smoked, had dirty hair, didn't care what others thought,
and played in a band - the cliche. A billy idol wannabe.
Kenny was enraged and tortured her with a spell.

Then the issue right before Buffy meets Twilight, she's
flying with Willow and goes through a weird dreamscape - where she and Willow learn that Buffy is going to be betrayed by someone really close to her, someone completely unexpected.
And that Twilight is about the death of magic, the view that the world would be better that way, but this, the demon truthsayer states is all lies. That humans lie to themselves, believe they are doing good when they aren't. They don't want to see the truth. Per example - Buffy's bank robbery - which as Willow points out lead to the rest of the world seeing slayers in a bad light, even if Buffy states no one was hurt and we meant to repay them with Nazi gold. Or Willow's interaction with Saga Vasuki - which later comes back to haunt her in Wolves at the Gate - finding out that Saga may not have her best interests at heart, but then as Willow states at least with you - I know when you lie, I'm not always certain when I am. The word lie is brought up more than once.

Also the word triple - triple x, triple agent...Buffy had three male lovers who she cared about - Angel, Riley, and Spike. We've seen two - where's the third and why hasn't he popped up? Last we saw Spike and Angel were joined at the hip.
In fact in all of Buffy's dreams - where Spike is featured, Angel is literally next to him and often in a sexual manner.

Always Darkest...Buffy's nightmare has Caleb talking, while Spike and Angel kiss, and she's marrying Warren.

She cries about her dead lovers, feeling disconnected to her new would be lover, Satsu, who talks a lot like Spike, devoted to Buffy even though she knows Buffy isn't in love with her, when Twilight throws a boulder at her and kicks Satsu.

There's a pattern emerging here...but I'm not clear on what it means exactly. But the Angel reveal has posed lots and lots of questions...

[2maggie2.livejournal.com]

I've felt like a voice in the wilderness because I persistently ask the question of where Spike is. He's alluded to all over the comics, but he's not come up directly. If he didn't matter, he'd have been mentioned -- once -- to be dismissed. The LJ crowd mostly thinks I'm an idiot because it's obvious that Spike doesn't matter.

I could write an insanely long post about all the places Spike is alluded to. But you picked up one of my favorites and that's Satsu, Buffy's punkish right hand gal who has an unrequited love for her. I love the point about Angel kicking Buffy's would be lover who has a five letter name starting with S into a hospital. At the end of the second issue of retreat, Angel orders that the guy who found the spike be killed.

In Always Darkest, Spike and Angel accuse Buffy of not being able to tell them apart. Well, there'd seem to be a material difference between the boys. When we first meet Twilight he's hovering above a church. Buffy is jumping *down* into the church where she kills a demon with a crucifix. Any chance we're calling back the scene where Buffy learned of the definitive difference between Spike and Angel in the first scene where we see the Angel who Buffy can't (in her dreams) distinguish from Spike? I'd like to think so.

But we'll see. The Angel reveal should be interesting!

p.s. Of course, it's possible that Joss et. al. are going to limit their yanking of IDW's chain by only bringing over Angel. But if that's so, they fell down on the writing job by not closing Spike's story line (Buffy knows he's back and doesn't care) and moving on. Instead, on at least two occasions the answer to the question has been carefully written around. So the potential IDW problem notwithstanding, I'm still betting that he shows.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Of course, it's possible that Joss et. al. are going to limit their yanking of IDW's chain by only bringing over Angel.

No. I don't think that's a problem for them. If it were, they'd bring over Spike instead of Angel. Angel sells more comics for IDW than Spike does and has a lot of titles. No, I honestly don't think they care all that much what IDW does with the characters or thinks, regardless of Allie's rhetoric. Actions speak far louder. Angel was IDW's cash cow - Bill Willingham's last issue outsold all the previous ones, including Buffy, and went into a second printing. This storyline about Angel being Twilight does foul up that story a bit, considering over in IDW land, Angel is currently being drained and feed blood, wrapped tightly in a cocoon, with tubes in and out of him. Spike comes and goes and is not a major player, and Spike's solo series has been delayed about four times - it's now starting in Summer 2010 or so we're told. So, they can use Spike without disrupting his arc all that much. Heck they could just do a phone call - and not even see him or a Dear Buffy letter.

No, there's a pattern emerging regarding Spike, that you'd have to be blind to miss regardless of whether or not you're a fan.
He's been indirectly referred to by Andrew, who to our knowledge may be the only character in the Buffy cast who knows he is alive. And as you note - Twilight reacts to the word "spike" negatively. Ethan Raine heavily alludes to Spike in dress and accent - although as he states he may be taking the form, Buffy gives him since he is in her dreamscape. Notably in Always Darkest - Spike shows up before Angel, Angel comes from behind, and sort of pulls Spike away from her - and Spike states can you even tell the difference. But it is Spike's voice we hear first.

Plus the whole Kenny thing, love triangles constantly being brought up, along with how silly love is - by Twilight to Riley, Twilight is very sarcastic about the lasting quality of love.

And the story starts - or we first see mention of Twilight in the crater at Sunnydale. Remember Willow, Faith and Buffy weren't the only ones involved with the whole slayer spell and closing the hellmouth and turning Sunnydale into a crater in Chosen - there's a fourth person who is missing. Spike. Spike turned Sunnydale into a crater. Spike was supportive of the slayer empowerment spell and gave Buffy the strength to get the scythe. Angel wanted to be the champion - but Buffy pointedly gave that honor to Spike and sent Angel home, and apparently hadn't been in contact with Angel since - outside of sending Andrew - who lies to Angel and leaves him to believe Buffy is in Rome cavorting with the Immortal.

I'd say they didn't care about this backstory, but indirect references are made - Andrew states, having recently met Angel, got to say I'm team Spike, you traded up! Before they greet the rogue slayers in Predators and Prey. And that whole comedic thing about spike's in magic? No, they are literally jumping up and down and saying : spike isn't here. It's not as if they just aren't mentioning him at all, or have given him to IDW, but that they are underlining the fact that they aren't really mentioning. Look - we aren't mentioning him!

Instead, on at least two occasions the answer to the question has been carefully written around.

Exactly. Too carefully and too neatly.

For a while I was worried it meant Spike was Twilight (which made absolutely no sense...because it would be too out of character - he's not much of a fan of rules or authority figures.). Now, I have no idea what it means. But they aren't being subtle.

Also, one other thing, the only person who knows Angel better than Buffy or Cordy or Faith - is Spike. Spike is Angel's counterpart, much like Faith is Buffy's. Spike knows what happened in Angel S5, he knows what happened in hell, and
he has had a close relationship with both Angel and Buffy on some level. Plus the last time we saw them, Spike and Angel were joined at the hip - they exchanged ring tunes in Angel After the Fall - which was to a degree dictacted by Whedon, and were together in the alley in Not Fade Away.

So forget Buffy for a moment and think about Angel...again Where did Spike go?

[2maggie2.livejournal.com]

I've been arguing since last January that Spike had to show for these reasons. I mostly get met with negative responses, and that's why I hedge. But you lay out the case very well. The allusions combined with the pointed silences just screams to me that Spike matters. Of course, most people assume that the silences mean that he doesn't.

To add onto your pile: The spike/Spike joke has *both* of Buffy's other two exes basically saying that Spike matters. Buffy's dream where she knocks Xander's head off recalls the alley way scene, by having Buffy say "oh balls", and having her worry about being too rough on her lovers and her fears that she's dark. She goes straight from that to Ethan Rayne, in case we missed the point. Satsu replays the Spuffy relationship in a mellower key. In WatG we have Xander's evil vampire who has an unrequited love for him crossing lines and making sacrifices to save the day. The dialogue between Willow and Harth written before Willow is revealed as Willow and not Drusilla screams Spike if you read with the mistaken identity, including the term "slayer of slayers" which sounds at first like a reference to Spike but turns out to be a reference to Buffy. (And isn't that a bit ominious, now that I think about it).

And finally there's just this huge, huge gap. What major charaacter *hasn't* gotten pulled into the story? Faith is there. Tara has shown up. Oz had a pretty big role. Riley is in the picture. Parket has been mentioned. Joyce has been missed. Various potentials are in the story. Andrew has a major role. We've seen Warren and Amy and Ethan. Robin Wood made an appearance. We've made a point of saying Xander mourned Anya. Now Angel is back. If you put up a roster in terms of importance to the show and appearance in the comic, Spike's absence would be absolutely stunning. How far down would you have to go before you got another absent character? Even Harmony and Clem have shown up. Where are we? Scott Hope? Larry? We know what everyone else is doing but we've got no clue what Spike is up to or whether Buffy even knows he's alive.

There's a complex at LJ about Spike being unloved by Joss and/or Dark Horse. But the way to show unlove is to park him away with a bubble like the one Anya got. This is something else.

NFFY is entirely devoted to the inversion between Buffy and Faith. Buffy is dicey and morally grey. Faith has been impeccable. Now Angel comes in very dark. Any chance we get another inversion?

And big word on Spike and the scythe. The scythe spell matters. Spike's soul juice powered straight up through where Willow was casting the spell, and Buffy attributed her very possession of the scythe to Spike. I think that's a place where he could matter a great deal.

It'll be intersting!

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

There's one thing that you mentioned, but didn't go into that just occurred to me today.

Hypothetically speaking, say the writers do think, Buffy has moved on, and knows Spike is alive, and he isn't important to her in the romanctic sense?
The whole story is about slayers upsetting the balance, that there are too many slayers. And they have to get rid of them. Vampires vs. Slayers. Humans vs. Slayers.

Okay, so who is the character known for killing "slayers"? Who came into the show to kill the slayer? Who has killed two slayers? Whose coat is an ex-slayers? And explained to Buffy in depth how to kill a slayer? Also who was the character who is a vampire, but a redeemed one, who was directly attacked by a slayer and almost killed - enough to make Angel wonder about them? What vampire has studied slayers?
Sought them out when there was only one? Changed sides because of a slayer?

If the story is about the slayer and the mythos of the slayer. If the army wants to do away with slayers.
Why didn't the go to the expert?

I'm sorry, but even if Buffy cared less about Spike - which I seriously doubt, the story is about too many slayers - and the only character who knows about slayers, who has killed slayers, and has fought Buffy to a standstill more than once, and sought his soul for a slayer - and has upset the balance by doing so.
Is Spike.

Spike upset the balance in Angel, and Angel went nuts.

Also, Spike was the wildcard in S2. The powers didn't see him coming. Whistler didn't know he existed. WRH wasn't sure what to do with him in S5.

Whatever your personal feelings regarding the character are - he is central to all of the plot issues in this story. The only way I could see him not being in the story - was if a deal was made with IDW not to feature Angel characters prominently, but once it was revealed that Angel was Twilight - that logic flew out the window. I'm sorry, Spike's absence is a bit too obvious. If he wasn't an issue, they'd have written him off much like they did Robin Wood, early on.