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shadowkatMuch nicer day - lovely outside, foot felt better, and I got stuff done. Also got a break from work. Foot is still tender and a bit on the fragile side, but I could walk on it, just very very slowly and not too far. This is of the good.
Still restraining myself from a fanfic meta...on Crave. Because it is impossible to do without serious plot spoilers. And I'm unable to articulate my feelings regarding it. I think it fascinates me because it discusses the incestuous and taboo themes in the series, without backing down from them. No, who am I kidding? It fascinates me because it explores the character of Spike in a new and different way - and his background and what makes him tick in a real world context. As well as exploring the character of Buffy, her attraction to Spike, their ensuing relationship, and what could have happened with it. I could care less about the themes. Themes - smemes, relatively no interest. Every time I'm forced to discuss themes and messages, I feel like I'm back in school writing a god damn paper. Anywho..What Nauti also does is twist the metaphors. And she applies the metaphors to sex not violence. Most people pick violence when interpreting the metaphors, Nauti picks sexual taboos. What is interesting to me is while we can read a story about a guy staking his mother through the heart with just an R rating, we can't read one about a guy having sex with her. Or say a woman being beaten and tortured by a vampire, but not permit one where she is having BSDM sex with her fatherinlaw. Our culture has no problems with killing people, but when it comes to sex or rough sex - we run scurrying into the other room and hide our heads trembling under the covers. Sex scares the beejeezus out of us. Doesn't it? Heck, show a bit of skin on primetime tv, and the censors jump out of their skin, but show someone being tortured or knifed or shot...no problemo. Also, people will go on and on about the cool fight scenes, but graphic sex scenes are scoffed at as porn. From my perspective fight scenes and sex scenes read the same in a story, they either stop the action cold or move it along. They either bore me to death or excite me. They are also written the same - the same writing muscels are required.
Regarding fandoms? I've lurked in many, only actively participated in one.
I remember as a kid fighting with friends over which character on the Monkees was the hottest. I liked Davey Jones. They liked Mickey. (Davey aged better...so I won there. Plus, I got his autograph. Sigh. Actually, my friend Jacob got his autograph for me, while I watched from across the room.) Later, I fought with people over the best character on the original BSG - I was in love with Richard Hatch and Apollo. (No, not Dirk Benedict's Starbuck like everyone else but Apollo.)
Of course the X-men fandom ....they had ship wars to beat ship wars. People fought over whether Jean Grey should end up with older bad boy, Wild Wolverine or Stalwart Scott Summers - her one tru luv and high school sweetie. Those wars are oddly reminiscent of the Bangle and Spuffy wars. So for that matter were the wars over which character was better Wolverine or Cyclops.
(Wolverine won...and got his own series. Mostly because the writers told us everything we needed to know about Scott right off the bat, Wolvie - they left a mystery for a bit longer.)
Personally? I was for the longest time, a Jean/Scott fan, and preferred Scott to Wolvie, because there were aspects of his character that fascinated me. He had all this power, but he had to keep it repressed. He was stoic. Steely. Dead-pan. Yet tortured and torn. I wasn't quite sure who he was. Wolvie to me at any rate - seemed pretty straight forward and not as interesting. I loved the character, but I got a lot of him - and preferred him with other characters, Wolvie/Jean did zip for me. And I remember being really annoyed that the writers broke up Scott/Jean and put Jean with Wolvie and Scott eventually with Emma Frost. I rather adored the Scott/Jean romance.
[I'm sure anyone who knows anything about the X-men will find the above confession to be sort of bizarre in light of the fact that in the Buffy verse - I prefer Buffy and Spike together, you'd think I'd prefer Jean/Wolvie. But to me, it's rather consistent. I like pairings were the two people have a lot in common and are equals or counterparts. They complement each other. Scott could not control his eyeblasts, but Jean could with her telekinisis. Scott never showed his feelings, but being a telepath she could read them. She felt overwhelmed by everyone's emotions, he repressed his. He was a leader, she an advisor, an investigator, a lieutenant. He buried stuff. She dug it out and was honest. Same deal with Spike and Buffy...Buffy buried her feelings, he pushed and prodded them out, she was stoic, he was Mr. Emotion, She felt she had to be always in control, he wasn't afraid of not being in control.]
This is a long-ass way of attempting to explain that we all perceive the characters and relationships differently and want different things from stories. Which I suppose is obvious. I'm obsessed with characters and their motivation, the plot while important, really doesn't interest me all that much except to the degree that it tells me more about a character and preferrably something new that I didn't know before. I like fine character details and I like to be surprised. Some people conversely are into plot arcs, thematic arcs, and the surrounding world or they like big picture. They care who the villian is, or what the message of the story is. They are the sort who are constantly asking the question - so what is the message here? What message is this sending? Is this feminist? What's your theme? While I'm off going, well, actually, hadn't really thought that much about it - far more interested in why character X has decided to kill character Y, and how he's going to deal with the fact that character Y is actually his son...and what that will do to him not to mention character Y who didn't know it either until now. But I think part of the reason there are these huge fights in fandom, is well perception. So you see, while one group is off writing metas about the feminist message in say Buffy the Vampire Slayer, I'm off writing meta on who the character Spike is, his mother issues, and his character arc. This may explain why when someone tells me - oh putting Spike and Buffy back together would send a really bad message to the audience regarding female empowerment --- I'm left sputtering, but, but, but... I'm curious to see what they do if they meet again, and how they react and what it means to the characters, and if they can work it out and if they can't... I don't give a flying frak about the bleeding message. Who cares about the message? If I wanted a message - I'd go back to school, or watch a documentary. Message -smeggage. I don't want to be preached to for crying out loud. It must be an academic thing? While they are probably thinking - you say you're a feminist, how can you as a critical thinker watch something that gives out a negative feminist message! Because I do not care about the big picture or the message, I'm watching for the characters you dope! See? We want different things.
Also when it comes to characters? You can't read a person by what characters or fic they happen to like. I could be a virgin for all you know. I may read CRAVE and love smutty fanfic, but that does not mean I've had any of it. Also I may hate smutty fanfic and go visit fetish bondage clubs each and every night. You Don't Know. Unless I tell you, which again...probably not, because how do you know I'm telling you the truth. Also good to keep in mind that people change over time, their interests, loves, etc will change. They may say something one day, and something different the next.
This brings me to five basic rules for playing/surviving in ANY fandom, which no one seems to follow including me (sigh, I've broken all of these, guys and gals, and paid dearly for doing so, but hey, I'm getting much much better...(pats self on back) ) - I was going to do ten, but drew a blank.
1. Respect the other person's perspective even if you completely and utterly hate it and disagree with it and think it is insane troll logic. Respect it! Respect it! Respect it!
2. Be careful about making assumptions regarding other fans.
3. If a fan pisses you off - do not engage. Repeat - do not engage. No good can come of it.
4. Do not post a rant about another fan in your livejournal or fanboard or elsewhere. You don't know who that fan's friends are. [Also it is probably wise to avoid posting rants about ships and characters that other fans who happen to be on your flist adore to pieces - at least not without sufficient cut-tagging and warning notices. Not to mention about shippers that happen to be friends of yours and read you. Filters also work, but again, you don't know who ships what.]
5. Remember don't take anything said in a fan discussion personally. They don't hate you, they hate your perspective. It's not you they disagree with or are judging, it is your perspective.
It's your perspective they are attempting to change or understand or skewer. Not you. They don't know you. You aren't pissing them off, it is your perspective that is.
[Oh rule number 6 - if you hate fanfic, don't get fanfic, don't like it, or despise someone else's fanfic...probably best to keep it to yourself. Also stealing, reprinting to other fans without permission, or plagarizing is not kosher. Fanfic is a fan's baby. They put effort into it. Spit. Sweat. Etc. It would be like spitting on your friend's kid - okay maybe spitting is a bit extreme, telling your friend that his/her kid is an ugly brat. Don't do it.]
Still restraining myself from a fanfic meta...on Crave. Because it is impossible to do without serious plot spoilers. And I'm unable to articulate my feelings regarding it. I think it fascinates me because it discusses the incestuous and taboo themes in the series, without backing down from them. No, who am I kidding? It fascinates me because it explores the character of Spike in a new and different way - and his background and what makes him tick in a real world context. As well as exploring the character of Buffy, her attraction to Spike, their ensuing relationship, and what could have happened with it. I could care less about the themes. Themes - smemes, relatively no interest. Every time I'm forced to discuss themes and messages, I feel like I'm back in school writing a god damn paper. Anywho..What Nauti also does is twist the metaphors. And she applies the metaphors to sex not violence. Most people pick violence when interpreting the metaphors, Nauti picks sexual taboos. What is interesting to me is while we can read a story about a guy staking his mother through the heart with just an R rating, we can't read one about a guy having sex with her. Or say a woman being beaten and tortured by a vampire, but not permit one where she is having BSDM sex with her fatherinlaw. Our culture has no problems with killing people, but when it comes to sex or rough sex - we run scurrying into the other room and hide our heads trembling under the covers. Sex scares the beejeezus out of us. Doesn't it? Heck, show a bit of skin on primetime tv, and the censors jump out of their skin, but show someone being tortured or knifed or shot...no problemo. Also, people will go on and on about the cool fight scenes, but graphic sex scenes are scoffed at as porn. From my perspective fight scenes and sex scenes read the same in a story, they either stop the action cold or move it along. They either bore me to death or excite me. They are also written the same - the same writing muscels are required.
Regarding fandoms? I've lurked in many, only actively participated in one.
I remember as a kid fighting with friends over which character on the Monkees was the hottest. I liked Davey Jones. They liked Mickey. (Davey aged better...so I won there. Plus, I got his autograph. Sigh. Actually, my friend Jacob got his autograph for me, while I watched from across the room.) Later, I fought with people over the best character on the original BSG - I was in love with Richard Hatch and Apollo. (No, not Dirk Benedict's Starbuck like everyone else but Apollo.)
Of course the X-men fandom ....they had ship wars to beat ship wars. People fought over whether Jean Grey should end up with older bad boy, Wild Wolverine or Stalwart Scott Summers - her one tru luv and high school sweetie. Those wars are oddly reminiscent of the Bangle and Spuffy wars. So for that matter were the wars over which character was better Wolverine or Cyclops.
(Wolverine won...and got his own series. Mostly because the writers told us everything we needed to know about Scott right off the bat, Wolvie - they left a mystery for a bit longer.)
Personally? I was for the longest time, a Jean/Scott fan, and preferred Scott to Wolvie, because there were aspects of his character that fascinated me. He had all this power, but he had to keep it repressed. He was stoic. Steely. Dead-pan. Yet tortured and torn. I wasn't quite sure who he was. Wolvie to me at any rate - seemed pretty straight forward and not as interesting. I loved the character, but I got a lot of him - and preferred him with other characters, Wolvie/Jean did zip for me. And I remember being really annoyed that the writers broke up Scott/Jean and put Jean with Wolvie and Scott eventually with Emma Frost. I rather adored the Scott/Jean romance.
[I'm sure anyone who knows anything about the X-men will find the above confession to be sort of bizarre in light of the fact that in the Buffy verse - I prefer Buffy and Spike together, you'd think I'd prefer Jean/Wolvie. But to me, it's rather consistent. I like pairings were the two people have a lot in common and are equals or counterparts. They complement each other. Scott could not control his eyeblasts, but Jean could with her telekinisis. Scott never showed his feelings, but being a telepath she could read them. She felt overwhelmed by everyone's emotions, he repressed his. He was a leader, she an advisor, an investigator, a lieutenant. He buried stuff. She dug it out and was honest. Same deal with Spike and Buffy...Buffy buried her feelings, he pushed and prodded them out, she was stoic, he was Mr. Emotion, She felt she had to be always in control, he wasn't afraid of not being in control.]
This is a long-ass way of attempting to explain that we all perceive the characters and relationships differently and want different things from stories. Which I suppose is obvious. I'm obsessed with characters and their motivation, the plot while important, really doesn't interest me all that much except to the degree that it tells me more about a character and preferrably something new that I didn't know before. I like fine character details and I like to be surprised. Some people conversely are into plot arcs, thematic arcs, and the surrounding world or they like big picture. They care who the villian is, or what the message of the story is. They are the sort who are constantly asking the question - so what is the message here? What message is this sending? Is this feminist? What's your theme? While I'm off going, well, actually, hadn't really thought that much about it - far more interested in why character X has decided to kill character Y, and how he's going to deal with the fact that character Y is actually his son...and what that will do to him not to mention character Y who didn't know it either until now. But I think part of the reason there are these huge fights in fandom, is well perception. So you see, while one group is off writing metas about the feminist message in say Buffy the Vampire Slayer, I'm off writing meta on who the character Spike is, his mother issues, and his character arc. This may explain why when someone tells me - oh putting Spike and Buffy back together would send a really bad message to the audience regarding female empowerment --- I'm left sputtering, but, but, but... I'm curious to see what they do if they meet again, and how they react and what it means to the characters, and if they can work it out and if they can't... I don't give a flying frak about the bleeding message. Who cares about the message? If I wanted a message - I'd go back to school, or watch a documentary. Message -smeggage. I don't want to be preached to for crying out loud. It must be an academic thing? While they are probably thinking - you say you're a feminist, how can you as a critical thinker watch something that gives out a negative feminist message! Because I do not care about the big picture or the message, I'm watching for the characters you dope! See? We want different things.
Also when it comes to characters? You can't read a person by what characters or fic they happen to like. I could be a virgin for all you know. I may read CRAVE and love smutty fanfic, but that does not mean I've had any of it. Also I may hate smutty fanfic and go visit fetish bondage clubs each and every night. You Don't Know. Unless I tell you, which again...probably not, because how do you know I'm telling you the truth. Also good to keep in mind that people change over time, their interests, loves, etc will change. They may say something one day, and something different the next.
This brings me to five basic rules for playing/surviving in ANY fandom, which no one seems to follow including me (sigh, I've broken all of these, guys and gals, and paid dearly for doing so, but hey, I'm getting much much better...(pats self on back) ) - I was going to do ten, but drew a blank.
1. Respect the other person's perspective even if you completely and utterly hate it and disagree with it and think it is insane troll logic. Respect it! Respect it! Respect it!
2. Be careful about making assumptions regarding other fans.
3. If a fan pisses you off - do not engage. Repeat - do not engage. No good can come of it.
4. Do not post a rant about another fan in your livejournal or fanboard or elsewhere. You don't know who that fan's friends are. [Also it is probably wise to avoid posting rants about ships and characters that other fans who happen to be on your flist adore to pieces - at least not without sufficient cut-tagging and warning notices. Not to mention about shippers that happen to be friends of yours and read you. Filters also work, but again, you don't know who ships what.]
5. Remember don't take anything said in a fan discussion personally. They don't hate you, they hate your perspective. It's not you they disagree with or are judging, it is your perspective.
It's your perspective they are attempting to change or understand or skewer. Not you. They don't know you. You aren't pissing them off, it is your perspective that is.
[Oh rule number 6 - if you hate fanfic, don't get fanfic, don't like it, or despise someone else's fanfic...probably best to keep it to yourself. Also stealing, reprinting to other fans without permission, or plagarizing is not kosher. Fanfic is a fan's baby. They put effort into it. Spit. Sweat. Etc. It would be like spitting on your friend's kid - okay maybe spitting is a bit extreme, telling your friend that his/her kid is an ugly brat. Don't do it.]
no subject
Date: 2010-03-07 09:22 pm (UTC)Nope, was completely unaware...I was actually referring to the hubbub over the Buffy comics' Twilight reveal. ;-)
But thank you all the same even if I'm not completely sure an apology is necessary?...I wasn't hurt at any rate but then I confess that until now I was completely and utterly oblivious to your counter-post on the topic. Hadn't read it. And thinking from your comment that that is probably a good thing. ;-)
All I was aware of was your response to the original post - which disagreed with me but seemed to be fairly respectful about it. While I saw that moscow_watcher had posted links, I'd chosen not to read Moscow_watcher's links - due to being incredibly busy and a great deal of personal/real life stress.
5.“They don't hate you, they hate your perspective. It's not you they disagree with or are judging, it is your perspective.” While I completely see this point, I also believe that our thoughts/interpretation also define us so it may be difficult sometimes not to take things personally.
Even so...keep in mind that we read and perceive what others state and write through our own lense/perception - which makes it very difficult for us to clearly see what they are trying to tell us. We often don't see their perspective or all of it. Best we can manage is a small portion. So what someone is attacking may not even be our perspective, but rather their interpretation of it or a small portion of our perspective - if they were able to tell us what they thought that was - we might be alarmed and say - "whoa! You are misreading me! I didn't mean that at all!." (Which happened to me recently, I got that exact response from someone else - they literally said, "whoa, that is not what I am saying at all. We are talking at cross-purposes." Communication can be so limiting and listening is a lot harder than it looks.)
Maybe there's a cultural difference between USA and France because I tend to think that here we 're reacting more strongly towards violence than sex scenes.
Very much so - I think. I first noticed it way back in 1984, when I was in high school and stayed with a lower middle class family in Bretagne.
On the beach, women went topless to get suntans. I remember taking pictures because it was so surprising. In the US you would be arrested for going topless. Also in Germany, Berlin, in the 1980s, there were posters of nude models on the streets. This is not permitted in the US. You'd be arrested if you did it.
So, yes, it is cultural, I think.
I've read and thoroughly loved Nautibitz 's fiction , eagerly waiting for the remaining chapters, however I will appreciate your views whether they're close to mine , or not. :)
If I ever get up the courage to do it. Bit afraid too actually. Nauti's fic impressed me, but I'm a bit fearful that people will interpret it the wrong way. Her fic explores a lot of interesting sexual taboos - that are understandable button pushers. Nauti, to give her credit, is hyper-aware of this - which is why Crave, much like Older before it was permitted only to people who asked to join. To read Older - I had to prove to Nauti that I had no problems with this type of fic and it would not push my buttons and I wouldn't pass judgment on her.
I give Nauti and Darkapple equal credit - for taking risks. Their fanfic is not safe.