Shipper wars...and other bits...sort of kitchen sinky because work ate my brain again

[shadowkat]

Got up at the crack of dawn this morning, and I mean literally...5 am, and to work by 7 am, to get stuff done. Also worked late last night or as late as they'd let me. Which is admittedly not that late - we work in an area that you don't want to be in after dark. Anywho, end of another hellishly insane week. I love recessions...they always keep you on your toes. Wait, have we ever not been in one? Oh right, there was that brief window during President Clinton's reign.

Buffy Shipper wars...again, sigh. Shipper wars have always given me a headache.

I think it's because I don't completely understand them. Never really did. I don't think I ship characters or relationships in fiction the way most people seem too? First off - I'm mostly interested in the integrity of the story. That comes first. And the character's journey within it. The message must come organically from the story, not be the reason for the story because then all we get is allegory or fable or bargain basement morality play, and I go to church for stuff like that. I want to examine the character, see their emotional and psychological arc. I'm interested in what-if's. What if you chose that path instead of this one? Because to a degree that's why we tell stories - to safely explore other variations or paths that we are afraid of taking. To see what would happen if we chose to go left instead of right. And the best stories, don't judge those other paths, they explore them. That's a difficult thing to do well. Because if you judge the path - you fall into preaching and soap box territory. So for me? If X has sex with Y - it should show me something new about X, something new about Y, and explore how their relationship changes. Also it must come organically from the characters...not be thrust upon them. Do X&Y have to ride off into the sunset? No. Not unless it works within the story as a whole. I'm all about the story, folks. Stories rule! I adore stories. Bad good what have you.

Buffy Shipper Wars, sigh...head-ache inducing and don't make a lot of sense to me..they just frustrate me. I shipped Bangel until IWRY, when I realized it was dead and if they brought it up again, it would only be to reinforce pretty much everything that was said so neatly in that episode. (What surprised me most when I came online in 2001, was the discovery that not everyone got that? And I've tried to see it through their eyes, but their version...well it doesn't work for me, my own experiences in life apparently negate their perspective - which is, I've learned, often the case in life. Our contradictory experiences can often make it impossible for us to understand each other.) There are two good metas online that discuss the relationship as I currently view it - 2maggie2 and gabrielleabelle. One does it from the comics perspective, and by referencing the titular episode Lie to ME, and the other, whose never read the comics, discusses it based on Season 1 episode "Angel". Notably, neither ever shipped Bangel, while I did. I don't really remember why I did...just that I did and rather strongly back in 1997-1999.

Ship or not, Bangle is an interesting relationship - which explores in great detail Buffy's issues with her father - which are literally referenced in the episode Nightmares. It's no coincidence that Hank Summers disappears from the text, as Angel becomes more and more prominent. Nor is it a coincidence that Darla has a little girl's voice, and wears a Catholic Girl's uniform, and is blond and youthful.

Then I moved on and shipped Buffy and Riley. I liked them. And stopped shipping them after Into The Woods, or rather, it was a combination of Into the Woods and I Was Made For You - which did for the Buffy/Riley ship what IWRY and Sanctuary did for Buffy/Angel. Riley explored Buffy's issues with men leaving her, the perfect normal boyfriend, the ideal, the normal life - which she wanted. The idea that you marry your college boyfriend and settle down, have 2.5 kids - what everyone does. But life gets in the way. It also explored the authority issues, do we follow our own heart or the course our parents/teachers set for us? Turns out the answers aren't simple.

Then when that broke up, I moved on to Buffy and Spike, I did not ship those two characters until maybe Intervention, hard to say - I had to be convinced. (And I find it difficult to read fanfic on those two characters prior to S5, just after Intervention, just doesn't work that well for me. For much the same reason, I have problems with B/A or B/R fic that takes place after those relationships ended.).

But I am a long time reader of comics and watcher of soap operas, and Buffy like it or not is a soap opera. A well written soap opera.

I'm still shipping Spike and Buffy, because the writer hasn't ended that ship. He hasn't. The last scene we got was Spike dying, Buffy saying she loved him at long last, and Spike saying no, you don't, but as a means of letting her off the hook. We know Spike came back and fought with Angel in LA, but we don't know if Buffy knows that he did. That has not been shown at all. So that relationship is left open and unresolved from a plot and story perspective, regardless of your feelings regarding it. And sorry, no, the whole he attempted to rape her bit - we can't ever forgive him and you are sick and twisted for doing so... doesn't play with me for two reasons: 1)he didn't actually rape her, and if he wanted to actually do it, there was very little she could have done to stop him, pushed him off once, maybe, but he could have attacked again, she was injured and trapped in her bathroom with no weapon, while he had fangs - would not have been hard for him to kill her, sire her, or rape her. Plus he didn't have a soul at the time, so why did he stop?? He doesn't even appear to know. Angelus wouldn't have. Nor would Hyena!Xander or Wish!Xander - we're shown that in S1 and S2 and S3. 2) he felt so badly about it that he went off to win his soul back so he would make certain not to hurt her again, then after getting said soul, he sacrifices himself to help her, and doesn't come after her again - letting her go. Granted he got a bit nasty with Robin Wood, but considering Wood just tried to kill him in a rather creepy manner, and was being sort of creepy with Buffy ...it was hard to care.

I don't need a happy ending. I just want an ending. Answers to questions. Resolution. Then I can merrily move on to the next story...that catches my eye. So, you see, weird shipper. Also, generally speaking? I ship friendships on tv more than romances, because I know romances peter out, or die in long running serials, otherwise they get boring...in soap opera land the trajectory is as follows: boy meets girl, boy wins girl, they have wild passionate sex, they break up, they get back together, they break up, they get back together, one dies or has an affair or does something that means it is the end forever and ever....they move on to new pairings. If the relationships doesn't get broken up - the characters get relegated to supporting status or worse are written out entirely...ie. they are sent to happily ever after land never to be seen again, except for random guest appearances. The kiss of death on serial television is a happy couple. All actors know this. Conflict makes the ratings go higher or the comic sales triple.

On another note? Does Scott Allie actually spend any time editing these comics? Or is he just publicizing them and arguing with fans constantly? From the errors in continuity, pacing, not to mention fact-checking, I'm guessing the guy is spending far too much time bantering with fans and not enough you know editing the comic book. (Pacing, fact-checking, continuity - are things that an EDITOR is responsible for NOT a writer. The problems I'm having with the comics are all without exception editorial in nature and can easily be fixed by a good editor. I know I had a good editor help me with similar issues. I'm surprised the fanfic writers haven't picked up on it - you guys use Beta's to make sure you get things right. Scott Allie is supposed to be Joss Whedon's Beta. Instead he's acting like his publicist.) Granted bantering with fans is far more fun than editing and wrangling with writers and artists regarding errors in continuity, pacing, etc...but isn't that his job? I admittedly have wondered in the past if the publishing industry, including comics, has meandered too far down the acquisitions editorial end of the spectrum and too far away from the actual editing end. Which makes editors for hire, those who work outside publishing companies and just edit, a marvel to behold, I found one. BUT, I will state Marvel Comics editors are much better at this than Dark Horse - so it can be done. Read Astonishing X-men, compare it to Buffy Comics in relation to pacing, continuity, and fact-checking, and you'll see whereof I speak. It's not perfect, but it is better than Dark Horse. Editing is a tough job. Particularly in comics - because you got to do pics and words.

Saw Lost this week...was bloody marvelous. Best episode in a long time. And on my birthday. What a nice birthday present. Course it featured one of my favorite characters - the anti-hero Benjamin Linus, played brilliantly by an extraordinary character actor. As a result, what might have been a one dimension villian, has turned out to be a truly complicated character. But, alas, no time to do a meta. Work ate my brain again. Sorry.

Comments

[2maggie2.livejournal.com]

Now see, criticizing Allie for continuity errors is fair game. I just have a headache with all this other stuff.

I did ship Bangel when I first watched the series, actually. That stopped around IWRY. It's just that I watched it all so fast that I was probably only a Bangel shipper for a few weeks, so it's easy to forget what it felt like.

And all this concern about shipping in the comics. Dang it. It's not the point. I want Spike's journey to be respected. I wouldn't mind at all if we could find a way to say that fighting for a soul rocks compared to other methods of acquiring those slippery things. I want it to be affirmed that he mattered a great deal to Buffy. I'm most sure I'll get the last of these three things.

If Buffy ends up with anybody in the LR it'll be Xander. I think it's more likely that she'll end up alone. But since the big question in Buffy's life is not who she marries, why is that the thing that gets everyone all excited?

That was one of the better Lost episodes in a long while. Little Ben finally did good!

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Saw Lost this week...was bloody marvelous. Best episode in a long time.

Wasn't it though? It was awesome! Seriously. The actor playing Ben did great work. It advanced the plot. And it was wonderful character service as well. Couldn't ask for better than that.

As for BtVS, I'm about ready to echo Spike falling on a cross asking in exhaustion "Can we rest now? Can we rest?"

[ubi4soft.livejournal.com]

I saw BtVS on a winter holiday in one week. Spike and Spike/Buffy brought me online. A respectful ending probably will ease my pain, but I don't know if I will be able to move on to another ship (tried, didn't worked).

These comics are also firsts for me (as a medium, interviews, interaction with fans), but with the latest development they have transformed themselves into some sort of cancer: better be ended soon but I can't stay away.

[rahirah]

I get the impression that Joss is Too Big To Edit - at least, by Dark Horse. If he were working for Marvel or DC it might be different. Which is kinda the kiss of death for a writer - you may get famouser, but you won't get any better.

[curlymynci.livejournal.com]

I've never been part of the shipper world and wasn't even online for the great Bangel Spuffy wars, so forgive me if this question opens up a nasty can of worms. I always felt that Spike had gone through the trials to have his chip removed and was a victim of imprecise demon requests. I realise that it may have been played like that as a mislead but it still feels far more in character for him than deliberately trying to regain his soul. Is there confirmation somewhere of what the writers' intention was?

[flake-sake.livejournal.com]

I have no idea why Allie is not actually editing, but I guess it might have to do with him not knowing the show well enough, so that he doesn't want to interfere with Joss.

About the whole shipper crazy. On one hand I see the insanity and uselessness of it on the other I kind of want some things validated in canon.

But like you and rahirah pointed out, that's a fairly pointless game.

[sueworld2003.livejournal.com]

"On another note? Does Scott Allie actually spend any time editing these comics? Or is he just publicizing them and arguing with fans constantly? From the errors in continuity, pacing, not to mention fact-checking, I'm guessing the guy is spending far too much time bantering with fans and not enough you know editing the comic book. (Pacing, fact-checking, continuity - are things that an EDITOR is responsible for NOT a writer."

Thank you for that! It's about time somebody said it. :)

[slaymesoftly.livejournal.com]

I like your approach to the shipping - and your explanations for switching. I, too, was with Buffy all along. If she was with Angel, I shipped Bangel (not that I knew the term back then, but...), then she moved on to Riley and I "shipped" them - in the sense that I was happy she had a boyfriend and unhappy that it wasn't working out. Then Spike told her he loved her, and that was all she wrote. LOL

I hadn't thought about the comics in terms of editing, but you are absolutely right. The editor is responsible for keeping the writers on track and the story going smoothly. And he is not doing that. I'm not a comic reader as a rule, so I'm not familiar with how well done others are, but Buffy has been pretty appalling. Although I have sometimes found the Angel/Spike comics put out by IDW? (sorry, too lazy to look up the publishing company's actual name) to be confusing, I think overall they've done a much better job of presenting believable characters and coherent stories.

[candleanfeather.livejournal.com]

Shippers wars? ... Tiptoes cautiously away.

Shipping is a way to approach a series I've a hard time to understand. I've loved all the relationships in the Buffyverse and found interest in each of them, though obviously I've loved Buffy/Spike much more than the others. But I don't feel betrayed if J Whedon has now the need to tell more about the Buffy/Angel relationship: it's his freedom as a writer. And the value of Spike as a character or of his journey isn't dependant in my eyes from the fact that Buffy loved him or not. But I guess my relative peace of mind is largely due to the lucky fact I've never interacted with hateful contemptors of my favourite character, so I don't really have an agenda burdened by exterior factors.

As for S Allie, he went too far once two years ago, when he came out, a bit like Fury, waggling a sanctimonious finger at all these mindless shippers who had the audacity to ship a woman with his rapist (forgetting that the rape had never occured). But since then he recognized his error and stayed with just stating his opinion, an opinion that has no bearing on the story being told. That and he also proved to be an apt "liar" to protect the story and its secret. :)

[bloodypoetry.livejournal.com]

I always say I started shipped Spuffy when Spike did. I have been fascinated with him since he first showed up. All these vampires, evil and rawr and fangs, and suddenly, he's nuzzling Dru with adoring eyes...I suddenly knew he was different. Knew he'd stick around. And when he turned that on Buffy, I was freakin' hooked. I've never shipped before, and I will never ship again; at least not the point of writing fanfic or making music videos. They are the end all be all for me.

At the same time? I don't hate Angel. I respect the B/A relationship. I don't demonize him. (Ha ha)