Shipper wars...and other bits...sort of kitchen sinky because work ate my brain again

[shadowkat]

Got up at the crack of dawn this morning, and I mean literally...5 am, and to work by 7 am, to get stuff done. Also worked late last night or as late as they'd let me. Which is admittedly not that late - we work in an area that you don't want to be in after dark. Anywho, end of another hellishly insane week. I love recessions...they always keep you on your toes. Wait, have we ever not been in one? Oh right, there was that brief window during President Clinton's reign.

Buffy Shipper wars...again, sigh. Shipper wars have always given me a headache.

I think it's because I don't completely understand them. Never really did. I don't think I ship characters or relationships in fiction the way most people seem too? First off - I'm mostly interested in the integrity of the story. That comes first. And the character's journey within it. The message must come organically from the story, not be the reason for the story because then all we get is allegory or fable or bargain basement morality play, and I go to church for stuff like that. I want to examine the character, see their emotional and psychological arc. I'm interested in what-if's. What if you chose that path instead of this one? Because to a degree that's why we tell stories - to safely explore other variations or paths that we are afraid of taking. To see what would happen if we chose to go left instead of right. And the best stories, don't judge those other paths, they explore them. That's a difficult thing to do well. Because if you judge the path - you fall into preaching and soap box territory. So for me? If X has sex with Y - it should show me something new about X, something new about Y, and explore how their relationship changes. Also it must come organically from the characters...not be thrust upon them. Do X&Y have to ride off into the sunset? No. Not unless it works within the story as a whole. I'm all about the story, folks. Stories rule! I adore stories. Bad good what have you.

Buffy Shipper Wars, sigh...head-ache inducing and don't make a lot of sense to me..they just frustrate me. I shipped Bangel until IWRY, when I realized it was dead and if they brought it up again, it would only be to reinforce pretty much everything that was said so neatly in that episode. (What surprised me most when I came online in 2001, was the discovery that not everyone got that? And I've tried to see it through their eyes, but their version...well it doesn't work for me, my own experiences in life apparently negate their perspective - which is, I've learned, often the case in life. Our contradictory experiences can often make it impossible for us to understand each other.) There are two good metas online that discuss the relationship as I currently view it - 2maggie2 and gabrielleabelle. One does it from the comics perspective, and by referencing the titular episode Lie to ME, and the other, whose never read the comics, discusses it based on Season 1 episode "Angel". Notably, neither ever shipped Bangel, while I did. I don't really remember why I did...just that I did and rather strongly back in 1997-1999.

Ship or not, Bangle is an interesting relationship - which explores in great detail Buffy's issues with her father - which are literally referenced in the episode Nightmares. It's no coincidence that Hank Summers disappears from the text, as Angel becomes more and more prominent. Nor is it a coincidence that Darla has a little girl's voice, and wears a Catholic Girl's uniform, and is blond and youthful.

Then I moved on and shipped Buffy and Riley. I liked them. And stopped shipping them after Into The Woods, or rather, it was a combination of Into the Woods and I Was Made For You - which did for the Buffy/Riley ship what IWRY and Sanctuary did for Buffy/Angel. Riley explored Buffy's issues with men leaving her, the perfect normal boyfriend, the ideal, the normal life - which she wanted. The idea that you marry your college boyfriend and settle down, have 2.5 kids - what everyone does. But life gets in the way. It also explored the authority issues, do we follow our own heart or the course our parents/teachers set for us? Turns out the answers aren't simple.

Then when that broke up, I moved on to Buffy and Spike, I did not ship those two characters until maybe Intervention, hard to say - I had to be convinced. (And I find it difficult to read fanfic on those two characters prior to S5, just after Intervention, just doesn't work that well for me. For much the same reason, I have problems with B/A or B/R fic that takes place after those relationships ended.).

But I am a long time reader of comics and watcher of soap operas, and Buffy like it or not is a soap opera. A well written soap opera.

I'm still shipping Spike and Buffy, because the writer hasn't ended that ship. He hasn't. The last scene we got was Spike dying, Buffy saying she loved him at long last, and Spike saying no, you don't, but as a means of letting her off the hook. We know Spike came back and fought with Angel in LA, but we don't know if Buffy knows that he did. That has not been shown at all. So that relationship is left open and unresolved from a plot and story perspective, regardless of your feelings regarding it. And sorry, no, the whole he attempted to rape her bit - we can't ever forgive him and you are sick and twisted for doing so... doesn't play with me for two reasons: 1)he didn't actually rape her, and if he wanted to actually do it, there was very little she could have done to stop him, pushed him off once, maybe, but he could have attacked again, she was injured and trapped in her bathroom with no weapon, while he had fangs - would not have been hard for him to kill her, sire her, or rape her. Plus he didn't have a soul at the time, so why did he stop?? He doesn't even appear to know. Angelus wouldn't have. Nor would Hyena!Xander or Wish!Xander - we're shown that in S1 and S2 and S3. 2) he felt so badly about it that he went off to win his soul back so he would make certain not to hurt her again, then after getting said soul, he sacrifices himself to help her, and doesn't come after her again - letting her go. Granted he got a bit nasty with Robin Wood, but considering Wood just tried to kill him in a rather creepy manner, and was being sort of creepy with Buffy ...it was hard to care.

I don't need a happy ending. I just want an ending. Answers to questions. Resolution. Then I can merrily move on to the next story...that catches my eye. So, you see, weird shipper. Also, generally speaking? I ship friendships on tv more than romances, because I know romances peter out, or die in long running serials, otherwise they get boring...in soap opera land the trajectory is as follows: boy meets girl, boy wins girl, they have wild passionate sex, they break up, they get back together, they break up, they get back together, one dies or has an affair or does something that means it is the end forever and ever....they move on to new pairings. If the relationships doesn't get broken up - the characters get relegated to supporting status or worse are written out entirely...ie. they are sent to happily ever after land never to be seen again, except for random guest appearances. The kiss of death on serial television is a happy couple. All actors know this. Conflict makes the ratings go higher or the comic sales triple.

On another note? Does Scott Allie actually spend any time editing these comics? Or is he just publicizing them and arguing with fans constantly? From the errors in continuity, pacing, not to mention fact-checking, I'm guessing the guy is spending far too much time bantering with fans and not enough you know editing the comic book. (Pacing, fact-checking, continuity - are things that an EDITOR is responsible for NOT a writer. The problems I'm having with the comics are all without exception editorial in nature and can easily be fixed by a good editor. I know I had a good editor help me with similar issues. I'm surprised the fanfic writers haven't picked up on it - you guys use Beta's to make sure you get things right. Scott Allie is supposed to be Joss Whedon's Beta. Instead he's acting like his publicist.) Granted bantering with fans is far more fun than editing and wrangling with writers and artists regarding errors in continuity, pacing, etc...but isn't that his job? I admittedly have wondered in the past if the publishing industry, including comics, has meandered too far down the acquisitions editorial end of the spectrum and too far away from the actual editing end. Which makes editors for hire, those who work outside publishing companies and just edit, a marvel to behold, I found one. BUT, I will state Marvel Comics editors are much better at this than Dark Horse - so it can be done. Read Astonishing X-men, compare it to Buffy Comics in relation to pacing, continuity, and fact-checking, and you'll see whereof I speak. It's not perfect, but it is better than Dark Horse. Editing is a tough job. Particularly in comics - because you got to do pics and words.

Saw Lost this week...was bloody marvelous. Best episode in a long time. And on my birthday. What a nice birthday present. Course it featured one of my favorite characters - the anti-hero Benjamin Linus, played brilliantly by an extraordinary character actor. As a result, what might have been a one dimension villian, has turned out to be a truly complicated character. But, alas, no time to do a meta. Work ate my brain again. Sorry.

Comments

[2maggie2.livejournal.com]

Now see, criticizing Allie for continuity errors is fair game. I just have a headache with all this other stuff.

I did ship Bangel when I first watched the series, actually. That stopped around IWRY. It's just that I watched it all so fast that I was probably only a Bangel shipper for a few weeks, so it's easy to forget what it felt like.

And all this concern about shipping in the comics. Dang it. It's not the point. I want Spike's journey to be respected. I wouldn't mind at all if we could find a way to say that fighting for a soul rocks compared to other methods of acquiring those slippery things. I want it to be affirmed that he mattered a great deal to Buffy. I'm most sure I'll get the last of these three things.

If Buffy ends up with anybody in the LR it'll be Xander. I think it's more likely that she'll end up alone. But since the big question in Buffy's life is not who she marries, why is that the thing that gets everyone all excited?

That was one of the better Lost episodes in a long while. Little Ben finally did good!

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Word on everything you stated above.

Now see, criticizing Allie for continuity errors is fair game. I just have a headache with all this other stuff.

Sigh. Me too. Me too. Although, I also find it hilariously funny at times. Because it is soo deja-vue. Back in the day, similar smack down's happened with executive producer's David Fury and Marti Noxon who seemed to like to do the same thing Allie is doing. Fury loved to pull fans chains. They had fans convinced Spike was getting his chip removed in S6 not going for a soul, and becoming evil.

Why people believed them? I've no clue. Hello, you aren't going to tell the fans what you actually plan on doing with the characters. Also collaboration...your thoughts on the characters mean little..on their own. And it was head-ache inducing. The number of metas I and other's wrote that jumped to archives before anyone could comment because of kerfuffles over what Marti or David said...plus the board crashes.

This is rather tame in comparison. But...from my perspective, Allie should only be critiqued on his editing skills or lack thereof. Actually, I've come to the conclusion that he's an acquisitions editor...which is very different than an editor. They do everything but beta - well they beta, but it is very cursory.

And all this concern about shipping in the comics. Dang it. It's not the point. I want Spike's journey to be respected. I wouldn't mind at all if we could find a way to say that fighting for a soul rocks compared to other methods of acquiring those slippery things. I want it to be affirmed that he mattered a great deal to Buffy. I'm most sure I'll get the last of these three things.

Oh, so agree. I'm the same way. My hopes are fairly simple. And I'm pretty certain we're going to get what we want.

The story as a whole fascinates me as well...or I wouldn't keep reading. Whedon appears to be revisiting all the aspects of the Chosen. Commenting on that episode in extensive detail - and that fascinates me. Even the bit on Buffy and Angel in that episode.

If Buffy ends up with anybody in the LR it'll be Xander. I think it's more likely that she'll end up alone. But since the big question in Buffy's life is not who she marries, why is that the thing that gets everyone all excited?

Agreed. I'm actually hoping she ends up alone. I think that ending is more interesting and braver in some respects and fits the show.
It just doesn't work for me...for her and (fill in the blank) to wander off into the sunset.

Xander - last I checked was taken. Unless of course, you think as I'm beginning to that Dawn is doomed. (I'm leaning towards the theory that the energy Willow gets comes from Dawn - and it also opens the portal.)

[2maggie2.livejournal.com]

Dawn is so toast. I've thought so since #25. The description of being a doll was a description of being the key.

* She's not the same as the other dolls. She had a spell put on her. It makes it so she can't leave. ==> She's not the same as the other humans. She had a spell put on her. It makes it so she can't leave.

* He's keeping her safe from cracking open her face and having her spirit scatter like atoms. ==> There's your blast of energy.

* You live in this wooden body as surely as a human lives in flesh. You're home now. ==> The key lives in the human body and is home now.

* Issue starts with Dawn saying "not the knife, not again". First time was the Gift.

I just hope she gets to go out as a hero and not a victim.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I'm hoping you are right, but am wary...we've postulated this theory before - way back in S6 and S7. Granted - it makes more sense now and they really couldn't have done much with it in 6 & 7, also they had to build interest in the character and make people care. Which they've done more or less.

At any rate...that's what I'm hoping for. And you are correct, there's quite a few reasons to think Dawn is toast, amongst the mere fact that she is dating Xander and they are happy. I keep thinking - Whedon is a horror writer - and prefers the tragic ending.

[atpo-onm.livejournal.com]

The description of being a doll was a description of being the key.

Good call-- I had forgotten about that particular story element until you mentioned it.

Yeah, if she goes I'm pretty sure it will be heroic. But Buffy would still be devastated. I've also wondered if the much earlier comment Willow made about "betraying" Buffy relates to changing the timeline so that Dawn reverts to Key status?

If this should actually happen in Season 8, would Season 9 be about Buffy trying to get Dawn back?

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

an acquisitions editor
THAT. Every time I saw DH's line-up - "Star Wars", "Aliens", "Predator", "Conan" - I wondered if there is a term for it. Now I know.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Yep. It's where the money is in the publishing biz, that and agents or publishers. Acquisitions Editors can make up to and over $250,000 a year in
trade books. They get signing bonuses for attracting high level authors.
The editor who negotiated the deal and got Stephanie Meyer and JK Rowling, got a signing bonus, most likely. They acquire the talent, ensure the talent is kept happy, act as the liasion between the talent and the publishing company, and negotiate rights deals (in some cases.)

Scott Allie is definitely an Acquisitions Editor.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Saw Lost this week...was bloody marvelous. Best episode in a long time.

Wasn't it though? It was awesome! Seriously. The actor playing Ben did great work. It advanced the plot. And it was wonderful character service as well. Couldn't ask for better than that.

As for BtVS, I'm about ready to echo Spike falling on a cross asking in exhaustion "Can we rest now? Can we rest?"

[ubi4soft.livejournal.com]

I saw BtVS on a winter holiday in one week. Spike and Spike/Buffy brought me online. A respectful ending probably will ease my pain, but I don't know if I will be able to move on to another ship (tried, didn't worked).

These comics are also firsts for me (as a medium, interviews, interaction with fans), but with the latest development they have transformed themselves into some sort of cancer: better be ended soon but I can't stay away.

[rahirah]

I get the impression that Joss is Too Big To Edit - at least, by Dark Horse. If he were working for Marvel or DC it might be different. Which is kinda the kiss of death for a writer - you may get famouser, but you won't get any better.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I think you may be right, on both counts. That's what happened to Stephen King, Anne Rice, Michael Crichton, Patricia Cornwall, and many others on the best-seller lists. At a certain point the publisher sort of stops editing and just let's the writer do whatever they want. You know it's happened - when you get the un-cut author's original edition of The Stand, or what have you. That's when the publisher is no longer editing.

And yes, it is the kiss of death for a writer. We all need another pair of eyes. We are too wedded to our own work to see what doesn't work or what does at a certain point. Also editing is hard. I think King has friends who read his, as does Whedon...but friends as we all know have their limitations. It helps if you can have professional/objective eyes look at it.

[ponygirl2000.livejournal.com]

It's so much more fun to keep up with the comics through reviews - easier on both my wallet and blood pressure!

The big reason I gave up the Buffy comics was that I was reading them at the same time as Joss' AXM and the difference in quality was maddening. It sounds like Marvel has much tighter control - I remember reading that their top writers, including Joss at the time, are brought in for yearly conferences to discuss overall direction for all the titles - with the Buffy comics it really feels like Joss is dashing off ideas without anyone to question it or re-direct attention to the overall arc.

I just wish that it didn't feel like Scott Allie has decided that shipper conflict was the way to boost sales. I can't imagine anyone will be happy when this ends - of course that'll probably be several years from now at the current rate of Buffy comics.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I agree. I also think it helped considerably that Joss was a huge fanboy of the Marvel editor who hired him and the X-men. Joss basically fanboys the X-men the same way we fangurl Buffy. So getting that job, well it is sort of like when Joss Whedon asked Brian Lynch to write Angel After the Fall. Also Marvel created the X-men, not Whedon. Whedon was just a hired gun - which I think made a big difference as well.

That said? I agree with you. Marvel and DC run a tight ship. I watched a documentary on the comics industry a while back - they did an in-depth story on the Death of Superman arc. The writers met in a room with a big board. Outlined their arc. Stated exactly what would happen next. Exactly where each character was going.
And even story-boarded the thing. They met constantly. In person.
The editors then went through what they wrote to ensure continuity and the art matched. It was well oiled machine. And fascinating.
(I love documentaries about that sort of stuff.) I know Marvel does the same thing - because I've read the writers and artists and editors discuss it in Wizard and countless books on the topic. The editors at Marvel are the big dogs. They executive produce the comics, not the writers. Heck, they even put in little boxes telling you if they made a mistake in the last issue and correcting it.

As a long-time comics fan, I feel your pain regarding the Buffy comics...it is atrociously slow for a comic book. In the comic book world - particularly action comics like X-men, they fight a villian, defeat the villian, and that issue ends. The B-plot line,
about the inter-relationships, goes on in the background. If they have a huge event - with cliff-hangers, they usually give you at least two comics a month, and guarantee the comics come out fairly regularly.

Whedon, OTOH, seems to write comics the way he wrote night time tv serials...with slow build, and taking the summer off - which worked okay for tv, since we got 22 episodes a year and he wrapped up the seasonal arc within 8 months. But with comics...

I remember it took forever and a day to get the next issue of Astonishing. (A lot of people gave up. I even gave up for a bit...and forgot about them. He took I think an eighth month break. Which Marvel seemed to deal with rather well, considering.) He seems to look at the comics like they are some sort of fun hobby that he does in his spare time when he's not busy making a living writing tv shows, movies, directing tv shows, etc. Because he takes these incredibly long breaks in between. I've never seen a comic book writer take a five month long break between issues. Fray took forever - I gave up and waited for the trade, and same deal with Astonishing X-men.

I just wish that it didn't feel like Scott Allie has decided that shipper conflict was the way to boost sales. I can't imagine anyone will be happy when this ends - of course that'll probably be several years from now at the current rate of Buffy comics.

It does appear that he is doing exactly that, doesn't it? I mean he's actually fanning the flames on the Buffyforums. It's bizarre.
And sort of amusing. Doesn't appear to be working, sales are dropping from what I've heard.

As for when it is supposed to end? Well, I'm guessing S8 is ending in the Winter of 2011. We'll get issue 35 in May. Then take a two month break because poor George Jeanty needs to rest after working night and day drawing a 21 page comic once a month and deserves a two-month summer vacation. (I don't know about you, but I think I'm in the wrong industry.) They'll come back in either August or September with issue 36. And we should get issues 37 and 38. Take a break in December. And get 39 and 40. Then they will take another five to six month break and start S9.

This is worse than watching the tv series. At least the tv series ended their 22 episodes within 8 months. With comics, Whedon takes the equivalent of 2 years.

[curlymynci.livejournal.com]

I've never been part of the shipper world and wasn't even online for the great Bangel Spuffy wars, so forgive me if this question opens up a nasty can of worms. I always felt that Spike had gone through the trials to have his chip removed and was a victim of imprecise demon requests. I realise that it may have been played like that as a mislead but it still feels far more in character for him than deliberately trying to regain his soul. Is there confirmation somewhere of what the writers' intention was?

[2maggie2.livejournal.com]

There's a big panel interview on the season 6 DVD where Joss says it was always intended that Spike get his soul and they played it the way they did for the sake of getting the plot twist.

For me it's far more in character for him to have been after the soul. :)

[curlymynci.livejournal.com]

Damn my region 2 geographical lack of knowledge! Really? Well I never.

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

Actually that interview is on the region 2 DVDs as well. And it's well worth watching.

[curlymynci.livejournal.com]

A total boxset rewatch is clearly called for.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

He also states it pretty clearly in the Seventh Season Episodes: Beneath You, Never Leave Me, and Sleeper. Apparently there were a lot of fans who felt as you did, so Whedon felt the need to put it in the scripts.

[curlymynci.livejournal.com]

It's amazing how we selectively filter things to fit in with our own view. I know the bits you're talking about but had always assumed that Spike was deluding himself rather than me. :)

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

How odd.

I must confess that your perspective bewilders me. But then I don't know you or your past experiences, which would most likely explain it. And like it or not, our experiences or lack thereof do color how we perceive others stories. We often filter the story based on what is going on in our own lives.

Anyhow...just more evidence that people really do perceive and think differently.

[flake-sake.livejournal.com]

I have no idea why Allie is not actually editing, but I guess it might have to do with him not knowing the show well enough, so that he doesn't want to interfere with Joss.

About the whole shipper crazy. On one hand I see the insanity and uselessness of it on the other I kind of want some things validated in canon.

But like you and rahirah pointed out, that's a fairly pointless game.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure you can get the validation you want - look at it from the writer's perspective, he has to be true to the story in his head. If he catered to each faction....I think he ignores the fans and let's Allie deal with them. ;-)

I've decided after discussing this with others, that Allie is an acquisitions editor not an editor, which means his role is to keep the talent happy and get more talent, to bolster sales, not to ensure quality.

[flake-sake.livejournal.com]

Hm, I watched the show realtively fast on DVD and came only into fandom after and I think I really came to a large extent because Spike/Buffy felt so unfinished on the show.

During watching it I always had the impression that this was a storyline to complex to drop and personally I was really astonished about the Bangel stuff in Chosen, because it felt very OOC for both of their present versions and not true to the story at all.

Back then I knew nothing about shippers or that there were actually people who thought Buffy and Angel should come ack together again, but in retrospective I wonder if that was a story "that needed to be told" or just throwing the ship a bone for the end of the series.

I actually really not want that for Spike and Buffy, I'd like to read their natural continuation and it's a good thing to ignore the fans in that case. I just wonder if it's going to deliver what was missing on the show.

[sueworld2003.livejournal.com]

"On another note? Does Scott Allie actually spend any time editing these comics? Or is he just publicizing them and arguing with fans constantly? From the errors in continuity, pacing, not to mention fact-checking, I'm guessing the guy is spending far too much time bantering with fans and not enough you know editing the comic book. (Pacing, fact-checking, continuity - are things that an EDITOR is responsible for NOT a writer."

Thank you for that! It's about time somebody said it. :)

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Hee. You are welcome. ;-)

[slaymesoftly.livejournal.com]

I like your approach to the shipping - and your explanations for switching. I, too, was with Buffy all along. If she was with Angel, I shipped Bangel (not that I knew the term back then, but...), then she moved on to Riley and I "shipped" them - in the sense that I was happy she had a boyfriend and unhappy that it wasn't working out. Then Spike told her he loved her, and that was all she wrote. LOL

I hadn't thought about the comics in terms of editing, but you are absolutely right. The editor is responsible for keeping the writers on track and the story going smoothly. And he is not doing that. I'm not a comic reader as a rule, so I'm not familiar with how well done others are, but Buffy has been pretty appalling. Although I have sometimes found the Angel/Spike comics put out by IDW? (sorry, too lazy to look up the publishing company's actual name) to be confusing, I think overall they've done a much better job of presenting believable characters and coherent stories.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

IDW is the correct. And while IDW has it's issues...with continuity, overall they've been better with pacing and coherence. Possibly because they aren't trying to duplicate the whole television series season theme and are instead during the comics formula of mini-series, which works better in the comic book world. Other comic books are actually edited better than these, Marvel and DC, while far from perfect, are fairly good at it - and if they screw up, they tell you in the next issue. Part of the reason for this - is comic book fans are notorious for pointing out to the publisher in detail where they screwed up, the page, the line, etc. It tends to be an audience that is notoriously detail oriented. So Marvel and DC have learned to be fairly careful.

That said? The problems I see in Buffy, I have admittedly seen in other comic book titles at different points.

[candleanfeather.livejournal.com]

Shippers wars? ... Tiptoes cautiously away.

Shipping is a way to approach a series I've a hard time to understand. I've loved all the relationships in the Buffyverse and found interest in each of them, though obviously I've loved Buffy/Spike much more than the others. But I don't feel betrayed if J Whedon has now the need to tell more about the Buffy/Angel relationship: it's his freedom as a writer. And the value of Spike as a character or of his journey isn't dependant in my eyes from the fact that Buffy loved him or not. But I guess my relative peace of mind is largely due to the lucky fact I've never interacted with hateful contemptors of my favourite character, so I don't really have an agenda burdened by exterior factors.

As for S Allie, he went too far once two years ago, when he came out, a bit like Fury, waggling a sanctimonious finger at all these mindless shippers who had the audacity to ship a woman with his rapist (forgetting that the rape had never occured). But since then he recognized his error and stayed with just stating his opinion, an opinion that has no bearing on the story being told. That and he also proved to be an apt "liar" to protect the story and its secret. :)

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I don't think most shippers think Spike's value as a character is dependent on how Buffy felt towards him, what they are concerned about is Buffy. See, the difference may well be that you don't ship "Buffy" the character? Because there's a huge difference between shipping say Angel or Spike and shipping Buffy. If you ship both Spike and Buffy, apart, as well as together. That will affect how your perceive the relationship.

It's sort of like just shipping Giles. But not Ethan. Or say just Spike, but not Angel.

The next component is who your friends are? I have a lot of friends who don't like the character of Spike, loved the character of Angel, and can't stand Buffy. Or friends who loved Buffy and hate the vampires.
Or love Xander and Faith, but not anyone else. I also have friends who love Spike and hate Buffy. And friends who are like, Buffy? Why do you watch that??? We apparently have enough in common that really doesn't matter.

And, how long you've been into the series and when you started watching.
Those of us who watched it live and were online during the sixth season have a vastly different experience with the online buffy fandom than say those who watched the whole series in the space of a week or a few months, and came online years after it had finished and the comics began.
Most of the more vocal fans have long since vacated the premises along with their websites. Also back then most, if not all the interaction, was on fandiscussion boards like ATPOBTVS. If you want to get a peek at what it was like - go to the ATPOBTVS Board, and hit the archive for 2002. It's a different world in some respects. I think there's a huge thread back then on a Marti Noxon interview.

As for Scott Allie...my difficulty with him is I'm not seeing any actual editing. But a lot of fan wrangling. LOL! He seems to enjoy fighting with fans, almost as much as David Fury did.

[bloodypoetry.livejournal.com]

I always say I started shipped Spuffy when Spike did. I have been fascinated with him since he first showed up. All these vampires, evil and rawr and fangs, and suddenly, he's nuzzling Dru with adoring eyes...I suddenly knew he was different. Knew he'd stick around. And when he turned that on Buffy, I was freakin' hooked. I've never shipped before, and I will never ship again; at least not the point of writing fanfic or making music videos. They are the end all be all for me.

At the same time? I don't hate Angel. I respect the B/A relationship. I don't demonize him. (Ha ha)