Shipper wars...and other bits...sort of kitchen sinky because work ate my brain again

[shadowkat]

Got up at the crack of dawn this morning, and I mean literally...5 am, and to work by 7 am, to get stuff done. Also worked late last night or as late as they'd let me. Which is admittedly not that late - we work in an area that you don't want to be in after dark. Anywho, end of another hellishly insane week. I love recessions...they always keep you on your toes. Wait, have we ever not been in one? Oh right, there was that brief window during President Clinton's reign.

Buffy Shipper wars...again, sigh. Shipper wars have always given me a headache.

I think it's because I don't completely understand them. Never really did. I don't think I ship characters or relationships in fiction the way most people seem too? First off - I'm mostly interested in the integrity of the story. That comes first. And the character's journey within it. The message must come organically from the story, not be the reason for the story because then all we get is allegory or fable or bargain basement morality play, and I go to church for stuff like that. I want to examine the character, see their emotional and psychological arc. I'm interested in what-if's. What if you chose that path instead of this one? Because to a degree that's why we tell stories - to safely explore other variations or paths that we are afraid of taking. To see what would happen if we chose to go left instead of right. And the best stories, don't judge those other paths, they explore them. That's a difficult thing to do well. Because if you judge the path - you fall into preaching and soap box territory. So for me? If X has sex with Y - it should show me something new about X, something new about Y, and explore how their relationship changes. Also it must come organically from the characters...not be thrust upon them. Do X&Y have to ride off into the sunset? No. Not unless it works within the story as a whole. I'm all about the story, folks. Stories rule! I adore stories. Bad good what have you.

Buffy Shipper Wars, sigh...head-ache inducing and don't make a lot of sense to me..they just frustrate me. I shipped Bangel until IWRY, when I realized it was dead and if they brought it up again, it would only be to reinforce pretty much everything that was said so neatly in that episode. (What surprised me most when I came online in 2001, was the discovery that not everyone got that? And I've tried to see it through their eyes, but their version...well it doesn't work for me, my own experiences in life apparently negate their perspective - which is, I've learned, often the case in life. Our contradictory experiences can often make it impossible for us to understand each other.) There are two good metas online that discuss the relationship as I currently view it - 2maggie2 and gabrielleabelle. One does it from the comics perspective, and by referencing the titular episode Lie to ME, and the other, whose never read the comics, discusses it based on Season 1 episode "Angel". Notably, neither ever shipped Bangel, while I did. I don't really remember why I did...just that I did and rather strongly back in 1997-1999.

Ship or not, Bangle is an interesting relationship - which explores in great detail Buffy's issues with her father - which are literally referenced in the episode Nightmares. It's no coincidence that Hank Summers disappears from the text, as Angel becomes more and more prominent. Nor is it a coincidence that Darla has a little girl's voice, and wears a Catholic Girl's uniform, and is blond and youthful.

Then I moved on and shipped Buffy and Riley. I liked them. And stopped shipping them after Into The Woods, or rather, it was a combination of Into the Woods and I Was Made For You - which did for the Buffy/Riley ship what IWRY and Sanctuary did for Buffy/Angel. Riley explored Buffy's issues with men leaving her, the perfect normal boyfriend, the ideal, the normal life - which she wanted. The idea that you marry your college boyfriend and settle down, have 2.5 kids - what everyone does. But life gets in the way. It also explored the authority issues, do we follow our own heart or the course our parents/teachers set for us? Turns out the answers aren't simple.

Then when that broke up, I moved on to Buffy and Spike, I did not ship those two characters until maybe Intervention, hard to say - I had to be convinced. (And I find it difficult to read fanfic on those two characters prior to S5, just after Intervention, just doesn't work that well for me. For much the same reason, I have problems with B/A or B/R fic that takes place after those relationships ended.).

But I am a long time reader of comics and watcher of soap operas, and Buffy like it or not is a soap opera. A well written soap opera.

I'm still shipping Spike and Buffy, because the writer hasn't ended that ship. He hasn't. The last scene we got was Spike dying, Buffy saying she loved him at long last, and Spike saying no, you don't, but as a means of letting her off the hook. We know Spike came back and fought with Angel in LA, but we don't know if Buffy knows that he did. That has not been shown at all. So that relationship is left open and unresolved from a plot and story perspective, regardless of your feelings regarding it. And sorry, no, the whole he attempted to rape her bit - we can't ever forgive him and you are sick and twisted for doing so... doesn't play with me for two reasons: 1)he didn't actually rape her, and if he wanted to actually do it, there was very little she could have done to stop him, pushed him off once, maybe, but he could have attacked again, she was injured and trapped in her bathroom with no weapon, while he had fangs - would not have been hard for him to kill her, sire her, or rape her. Plus he didn't have a soul at the time, so why did he stop?? He doesn't even appear to know. Angelus wouldn't have. Nor would Hyena!Xander or Wish!Xander - we're shown that in S1 and S2 and S3. 2) he felt so badly about it that he went off to win his soul back so he would make certain not to hurt her again, then after getting said soul, he sacrifices himself to help her, and doesn't come after her again - letting her go. Granted he got a bit nasty with Robin Wood, but considering Wood just tried to kill him in a rather creepy manner, and was being sort of creepy with Buffy ...it was hard to care.

I don't need a happy ending. I just want an ending. Answers to questions. Resolution. Then I can merrily move on to the next story...that catches my eye. So, you see, weird shipper. Also, generally speaking? I ship friendships on tv more than romances, because I know romances peter out, or die in long running serials, otherwise they get boring...in soap opera land the trajectory is as follows: boy meets girl, boy wins girl, they have wild passionate sex, they break up, they get back together, they break up, they get back together, one dies or has an affair or does something that means it is the end forever and ever....they move on to new pairings. If the relationships doesn't get broken up - the characters get relegated to supporting status or worse are written out entirely...ie. they are sent to happily ever after land never to be seen again, except for random guest appearances. The kiss of death on serial television is a happy couple. All actors know this. Conflict makes the ratings go higher or the comic sales triple.

On another note? Does Scott Allie actually spend any time editing these comics? Or is he just publicizing them and arguing with fans constantly? From the errors in continuity, pacing, not to mention fact-checking, I'm guessing the guy is spending far too much time bantering with fans and not enough you know editing the comic book. (Pacing, fact-checking, continuity - are things that an EDITOR is responsible for NOT a writer. The problems I'm having with the comics are all without exception editorial in nature and can easily be fixed by a good editor. I know I had a good editor help me with similar issues. I'm surprised the fanfic writers haven't picked up on it - you guys use Beta's to make sure you get things right. Scott Allie is supposed to be Joss Whedon's Beta. Instead he's acting like his publicist.) Granted bantering with fans is far more fun than editing and wrangling with writers and artists regarding errors in continuity, pacing, etc...but isn't that his job? I admittedly have wondered in the past if the publishing industry, including comics, has meandered too far down the acquisitions editorial end of the spectrum and too far away from the actual editing end. Which makes editors for hire, those who work outside publishing companies and just edit, a marvel to behold, I found one. BUT, I will state Marvel Comics editors are much better at this than Dark Horse - so it can be done. Read Astonishing X-men, compare it to Buffy Comics in relation to pacing, continuity, and fact-checking, and you'll see whereof I speak. It's not perfect, but it is better than Dark Horse. Editing is a tough job. Particularly in comics - because you got to do pics and words.

Saw Lost this week...was bloody marvelous. Best episode in a long time. And on my birthday. What a nice birthday present. Course it featured one of my favorite characters - the anti-hero Benjamin Linus, played brilliantly by an extraordinary character actor. As a result, what might have been a one dimension villian, has turned out to be a truly complicated character. But, alas, no time to do a meta. Work ate my brain again. Sorry.

Comments

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I think you may be right, on both counts. That's what happened to Stephen King, Anne Rice, Michael Crichton, Patricia Cornwall, and many others on the best-seller lists. At a certain point the publisher sort of stops editing and just let's the writer do whatever they want. You know it's happened - when you get the un-cut author's original edition of The Stand, or what have you. That's when the publisher is no longer editing.

And yes, it is the kiss of death for a writer. We all need another pair of eyes. We are too wedded to our own work to see what doesn't work or what does at a certain point. Also editing is hard. I think King has friends who read his, as does Whedon...but friends as we all know have their limitations. It helps if you can have professional/objective eyes look at it.

[ponygirl2000.livejournal.com]

It's so much more fun to keep up with the comics through reviews - easier on both my wallet and blood pressure!

The big reason I gave up the Buffy comics was that I was reading them at the same time as Joss' AXM and the difference in quality was maddening. It sounds like Marvel has much tighter control - I remember reading that their top writers, including Joss at the time, are brought in for yearly conferences to discuss overall direction for all the titles - with the Buffy comics it really feels like Joss is dashing off ideas without anyone to question it or re-direct attention to the overall arc.

I just wish that it didn't feel like Scott Allie has decided that shipper conflict was the way to boost sales. I can't imagine anyone will be happy when this ends - of course that'll probably be several years from now at the current rate of Buffy comics.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I agree. I also think it helped considerably that Joss was a huge fanboy of the Marvel editor who hired him and the X-men. Joss basically fanboys the X-men the same way we fangurl Buffy. So getting that job, well it is sort of like when Joss Whedon asked Brian Lynch to write Angel After the Fall. Also Marvel created the X-men, not Whedon. Whedon was just a hired gun - which I think made a big difference as well.

That said? I agree with you. Marvel and DC run a tight ship. I watched a documentary on the comics industry a while back - they did an in-depth story on the Death of Superman arc. The writers met in a room with a big board. Outlined their arc. Stated exactly what would happen next. Exactly where each character was going.
And even story-boarded the thing. They met constantly. In person.
The editors then went through what they wrote to ensure continuity and the art matched. It was well oiled machine. And fascinating.
(I love documentaries about that sort of stuff.) I know Marvel does the same thing - because I've read the writers and artists and editors discuss it in Wizard and countless books on the topic. The editors at Marvel are the big dogs. They executive produce the comics, not the writers. Heck, they even put in little boxes telling you if they made a mistake in the last issue and correcting it.

As a long-time comics fan, I feel your pain regarding the Buffy comics...it is atrociously slow for a comic book. In the comic book world - particularly action comics like X-men, they fight a villian, defeat the villian, and that issue ends. The B-plot line,
about the inter-relationships, goes on in the background. If they have a huge event - with cliff-hangers, they usually give you at least two comics a month, and guarantee the comics come out fairly regularly.

Whedon, OTOH, seems to write comics the way he wrote night time tv serials...with slow build, and taking the summer off - which worked okay for tv, since we got 22 episodes a year and he wrapped up the seasonal arc within 8 months. But with comics...

I remember it took forever and a day to get the next issue of Astonishing. (A lot of people gave up. I even gave up for a bit...and forgot about them. He took I think an eighth month break. Which Marvel seemed to deal with rather well, considering.) He seems to look at the comics like they are some sort of fun hobby that he does in his spare time when he's not busy making a living writing tv shows, movies, directing tv shows, etc. Because he takes these incredibly long breaks in between. I've never seen a comic book writer take a five month long break between issues. Fray took forever - I gave up and waited for the trade, and same deal with Astonishing X-men.

I just wish that it didn't feel like Scott Allie has decided that shipper conflict was the way to boost sales. I can't imagine anyone will be happy when this ends - of course that'll probably be several years from now at the current rate of Buffy comics.

It does appear that he is doing exactly that, doesn't it? I mean he's actually fanning the flames on the Buffyforums. It's bizarre.
And sort of amusing. Doesn't appear to be working, sales are dropping from what I've heard.

As for when it is supposed to end? Well, I'm guessing S8 is ending in the Winter of 2011. We'll get issue 35 in May. Then take a two month break because poor George Jeanty needs to rest after working night and day drawing a 21 page comic once a month and deserves a two-month summer vacation. (I don't know about you, but I think I'm in the wrong industry.) They'll come back in either August or September with issue 36. And we should get issues 37 and 38. Take a break in December. And get 39 and 40. Then they will take another five to six month break and start S9.

This is worse than watching the tv series. At least the tv series ended their 22 episodes within 8 months. With comics, Whedon takes the equivalent of 2 years.