General Fandom Questions (and sigh, more on computer decision making)

[shadowkat]

The poll that I did at lunch regarding which computer I should buy - a Mac or a PC is in a dead-heat. Five to Five (not Five by Five...unfortunately, and only Buffy fans will get that joke.) And it reflects perfectly how I feel about getting a new computer - I honestly don't know which would be the better choice. I'm bloody tired of spam and spyware, that much I can tell you. But...am leery of a new gadget. OTOH - been told that you can transfer Windows items to a Mac. Guy at work told me that his friend who is a financial analyst won't buy anything but Macs now - and yes you can use spreadsheets. The new Mac Pro - will use both OS/X operating system and Windows. I don't know. I don't really want to spend 2K on a computer right now - I'm still saving for a condo-co-op, albeit it is looking grim. And my salary appears to be stuck in place like everyone elses - well everyone who isn't in the entertainment/marketing/ad profession (those guys either are multi-millionaires, billionaires or dead broke. Weird profession.)

So, frustrated, I posted the same question more or less to my Facebook - which has a lot of tech heads on it (most of whom are in my family or former co-workers). But Facebook is weird - you can post and no one will notice.

Fandom related Questions:

1. Question for the Whedon fandom - assuming there are still Whedon fans on my flist? Do you think that Whedon resented Angel and Spike? That he truly intended Buffy to be a black and white universe where vampires represented disease and sickness and evils of immortality and nothing else? That the network and David Greenwalt are the sole reasons we got Angel the series and Spike for more than four episodes? And if it weren't for their considerable popularity - they would have been staked as originally planned? Finally - how do you know what the writer was thinking? Are we merely speculating based on assorted comments from actors (because we all know how reliable they are) or interviews with the writer and/or writers themselves? And to what degree is this information even reliable? Can we ever know? [I don't think so personally, but am curious what others think.]

2. This is a more General Question - that relates to both fandoms and well just anything that makes you want to rant on your blog - but is decidedly of the cultural persuasion and not, about politics, your co-worker, or your commute (because we all know why people rant about that. To rant is human.) By cultural persuasion - I mean music, art, books, tv shows, theater,
film...fictional characters and/or stories and their associated fans.

What turns you off? Really makes you decide - okay I'm done - I don't like this writer any more or don't like that character or can't stand that fictional relationship or
that tv show? Is it something you can pin-point or just a gut reaction? Do you know? Can you really explain it? Or better yet - do you even want to explain it? And what will make you want to scream at an innocent fan shipping or loving or adoring that character, relationship or tv show? Is it how they are shipping it or loving it? The mere fact that they are loving it? Or the reasons they've expressed for loving it? (I'd say why they are loving it - but I don't believe we can know that - unless people tell us and even then, I've seen people online completely misread the explanations given.) Do you know why it pisses you off?

What I'm really curious about - I guess - is what motivates us to dogmatically launch into a full-scale attack or rant on a fictional (relation)ship, character, or fan response to it. Sort of the opposite of the squee post. What motivates the rant post? Because let's face it - rant posts are more likely to back-fire and cause us pain. (Who here has defriended someone, banned someone, or been defriended as the direct result of a rant post they did? Show of hands? Oh come on, I can't be the only one, at least I hope I'm not the only because, ahem, that would be embarrassing.) So we have to be pretty motivated to launch into one, right? What motivates us to do it?

[I know those are complicated questions. Hoping people will respond, because I don't really know the answers myself. You can either answer in the comments or in your own blog - if your own blog - please provide a link so I can read it. ]

Comments

[embers-log.livejournal.com]

Well I hope I understand the questions (it is late at night and my brain doesn't always function properly) but here goes:

#1. my impression from my viewing of the TV shows AND from listening to commentary AND reading interviews is that Joss loved both Spike and Angel, he (Joss in my opinion) believes in redemption and welcomed the opportunity to explore what redemption would mean for a monster... I think Joss also thought that just gaining a soul doesn't guarentee redemption or good behavior. And exploring mistakes, and no-win situations, were always going to be part of the package for Spike and Angel but also for Buffy and Giles and Xander and Willow and everyone....
JMPO (just my personal opinion) of course.

I think I could probably pull out scenes from the shows, as well as quotes from commentaries and interviews to support my belief in Joss' affection for Spike & Angel. But at the same time I wouldn't waste my time arguing with someone who feels that Joss hates his characters. It is pointless to argue something which will always come down to personal points of view. I would avoid websites where someone is constantly arguing w/my POV just because it would be irritating without any possibility of either one of us changing the other's mind.

#2. In my experience the thing that usually turns me off of a book, movie and/or TV show is hackneyed boring dialogue and plots and two dimensional cardboard cut out characters. I become disgusted with repetitious plots and the feeling that I always know what is going to happen next (which is a danger with most TV shows since they want 'stand alone' stories that always end up at the same point).
I ranted and complained about 'Lost' because I felt that they kept telling me the same background stories about the same characters, so that I wanted to fast forward through more and more of the episodes (I stopped watching fairly early in the series... I heard it got better, but I no longer cared).
I ranted and complained about 'Heroes' because they took characters who had seemed layered and interesting but then kept twisting them about so that they seemed to have no personality at all....

I also have a huge torture button... and personally I felt that '24' was way too gung ho about secret government agencies that invade privacy, break international laws and engage in torture. I have to confess that I never attempted to watch or like the show, I just hated the premise too much.

I have to confess that as far as I know the only time I've been defriended was about politics, but I have defriended quite a few people who became too vocally anti-Joss or anti-Spike or annoying me with their politics... I don't bother to read that many blogs, and I don't waste my time on blogs that irritate me.

[flake-sake.livejournal.com]

1) Joss said in interviews that he didn't intend the characters as big as they became, but for me at least that doesn't mean he resented them. He helped grow them as ideas certainly, by evolving them himself and by having hired writers who had a connection to the characters. And our take of what happened then comes just from some interviews, so it's really a lot of guesswork.

2)Aside from boredom and bad writing, which are not really controversial points, misogyny does the trick for me extremely well.

It's not that I can't stand misogyny depicted (actually I like shows, who are honest about it), I can't stand it when the narrative implies that women as a gender inferiour to man and need to be controlled, need to dress up basically like clowns, or fulfill other gender stereotypes that are beyond silly.

Twilight comes to mind and also several anime series.

[liliaeth]

1. Yes I do. Thing is, just look at the pilot. Angel was not a part of Joss' original idea for Buffy. In Firefly he even went as far as making it clear there were no alien species.

I don't think that Joss expected us to actually identify with the non humans in the cast, or see them as anything more than a funny distraction.

Even in the Body, the only vampire that was allowed to be in the ep was the one at the end.

Joss was smart enough to see how popular both Spike and Angel were, but I do think he resented it.

2. As for the second question. Losers. I truly and utterly lack any understanding as to why some writers seem to think that losers are the funniest most human thing they can put in a text.

It's bad enough when it's characters like the three nerds on Buffy, but when in something like Spider-Man, the main character gets turned into a loser, then the whole text becomes unreadable/unwatcheable, ...

[next_to_normal]

Oh, computer woes, I've been there. Having used both Mac and PC, I don't think one is inherently better than the other. (I thought I hated my PC, but it actually turned out I just hated Vista - Windows 7 seems much better.) I think it mostly comes down to personal preference and price range. With computers, you definitely get what you pay for, so a Mac is probably going to be a lot better than most of what's on the market, but then again, so is a comparatively priced PC. If it helps, I just bought a Samsung laptop for under $1000, which I am really happy with.

As for the fandom questions:
1. I do think Whedon originally intended vampires to be all bad, and didn't anticipate characters like Angel and Spike. However, I don't think he resents them - it's possible that they never interested him as much as Buffy and the Scoobies, but he certainly didn't seem to have a problem giving them impressive character arcs.

2. I think it's a combination of logic and gut reaction. I mean, I'd like to think I understand the basics of storytelling, and can judge when something is done poorly, and that will usually turn me off. But then again, all art is subjective, and so there's always a personal, emotional component to it that you can't really explain. What drives me up the wall might, to another person, be the best thing ever.

And I think what leads to a lot of the screaming at each other is that people don't acknowledge that personal component. People forget that it's just about preference, that we might like different things. Instead, we see it as the other person doesn't understand why you find it so awful, they're obviously just misguided, and if you could just explain it to them, they'll see the light. But... opinions don't really work that way.

[blackfrancine.livejournal.com]

1. I don't really get the impression that Whedon resented Spike or Angel--but I don't do a lot of digging through interviews. But, just looking at the large roles they played on the show itself--and at the fact that Joss put so much energy into a spinoff all for Angel--I'd say he didn't resent them too much. He gave them both interesting arcs and made them likable. And--let's face it--Joss isn't known for catering to his audience's desires and expectations. If he wanted to kill them off or make them pure evil, he probably would have.

I'm really not someone who puts a lot of stock into what the author intends. I really just don't care (this is probably my literary-criticism training shining through). And I think that since over the last 50 years or so there's been a de-emphasizing of authorial intent, more and more authors have come to embrace the idea of the audience interpreting the primary meaning of the text--so they offer less of their intentions. So, really, I don't think it's very likely that we'll be able to get at what an author was thinking. And that's probably a good thing. It leaves far more room for exploration.

2. What turns me off: Saccharine romances; giving in too much to expectations; out-of-character behavior (or giant motivators for OOC behavior inserted in obvious ways); misogyny.

What compels me to want to yell at another fan? It's one of 2 things: 1) If they're criticizing a character I deeply relate to in ways that I feel are completely invalid and just totally miss the mark. I'm all for criticism--I just need it to be backed up and sensical. 2) If they ship the same ship I do, but they do it WRONG. (Shipping other ships doesn't bother me much at all--live and let live. But when they are aboard my ship, and still don't see the beauty of it... we've got problems.) This is awful and dogmatic of me, I know. But good grief. I saw a comment recently about a ship I love, and it was so weird. The commenter's whole basis for liking that ship had nothing to do with anything that was in canon. They had their own little mythology worked in. It was wacky. And I wanted to yell: THERE IS PLENTY OF REAL REASONS TO LOVE THIS SHIP. YOU DON'T NEED TO FABRICATE REASONS. PAY ATTENTION. But I didn't. I walked away.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Have to stick with the lap-top. Don't have desktopor any room for a desktop. So it's either Dell Laptop or Mac laptop. Currently own a Dell.

Thanks for answering the Whedon question. Noticed you avoided question 2, which is actually harder to answer I think.

More or less agree with you regarding the Whedon question. I think authorial intent is a difficult thing to determine, particularly when most authors have no idea what they intended themselves. How can we know, if they don't? And with tv - it's often a moving target - their intentions change. The Whedon who created S1 Buffy, is not the same guy who is writing the comics or wrote S7 buffy. So his intentions aren't the same. So it's difficult to quantify one way or another, I think.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

People forget that it's just about preference, that we might like different things. Instead, we see it as the other person doesn't understand why you find it so awful, they're obviously just misguided, and if you could just explain it to them, they'll see the light. But... opinions don't really work that way.

Hee. Yes. Quite true. We forget that not everyone thinks the same. It's not just that we have different experiences and backgrounds, but we all think differently. So it is quite possible for two people to watch the same tv show and act as if they watched two completely different shows. They are focusing on different things, different people, different bits of dialogue or music or what not.

Apparently this is also true about choosing a computer - as I discovered when I posted it on Facebook. A PC user complained about how difficult it is to load flash on Safari on a MAc, while a Mac user responded - why would you use Safari when Firefox is so much better? LOL! (They may not have had a choice.) And the Mac users who used to be PC users - are stating how horrid the PC was (they were upset with Vista)
while the PC people are exclaiming over the wonders of Vista and the huge learning curve that is Mac.

I have no clue which to go with now. Except, I told myself or rather promised myself - that I would buy a MAC when this computer required replacing. Now, I'm wavering. Because, you know...change...(shrugs)

[next_to_normal]

Except, I told myself or rather promised myself - that I would buy a MAC when this computer required replacing. Now, I'm wavering. Because, you know...change...

Haha, I know the feeling! I always angst over buying a new computer because I figure better the devil you know, right?

[menomegirl.livejournal.com]

1.I don't think Whedon resented the characters but I do believe he did want-at least initially-the world of Buffy to be a a black and white universe. That much is pretty clear in the first few episodes of the first season. I do think the character of Angel and his storyline was not as well-crafted or as well-thought-out as Spike's was. And I think the story being told is what prevented Angel and Spike from being staked-the characters were too useful to get rid of and as a consequence, both the vampires evolved in ways Whedon had never intended. My impressions are based on interviews of the writers, the actors, things said in commentaries and things the writers said in comments at the Bronze and the Bronze Beta.

2.What turns you off? Really makes you decide - okay I'm done - I don't like this writer any more or don't like that character or can't stand that fictional relationship or that tv show?

To answer that question, I'm going to talk briefly about Charmed. I watched the first three seasons and enjoyed it was just as much as I did Btvs. Shannen Doherty left at the end of season 3, which bummed me out but I continued watching anyhow. The character of Paige annoyed me but the story was still good so I kept watching. However, I stopped watching during season 5 because I was utterly disgusted with what they did to the Phoebe/Cole storyline, among other things. My opinions were formed independently of any fannish aspect; I had nothing to do with the Charmed online fandom.

[embers-log.livejournal.com]

OMG I really agree about 'Charmed'! I had quite enjoyed the show when Shannen Doherty was on it, she (the actress) wasn't afraid to have her character have layers/gray areas and she made the whole show more interesting because of it. When she left you were stuck with these chicks who were all perfect unless under a spell, and most of the action involved trying on new sexy outfits. I found it so disappointing.
I had also loved the Phoebe/Cole relationship, but then they didn't know what to do with him... they kept bouncing him around so that he had a different personality and different motivations from week to week (he must have been so grateful to get 'NipTuk!').

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

But at the same time I wouldn't waste my time arguing with someone who feels that Joss hates his characters. It is pointless to argue something which will always come down to personal points of view.

True. I've discovered this as well. It's also apparently true when it comes down to computer ownership. Very odd. Mac owners or PC owners who became Mac owners - posted a comment, PC owners did not.
But the rivalry has a feeling very similar to Spike vs. Angel.
Who knew?

I keep reminding myself that people think differently than I and each other do. I'm highly analytical and that does affect how I view things. I've been analyzing tv shows, books, plays and films since I can remember - my mother is highly analytical, as is my father. We spend hours analyzing the plot of book, film or tv show - each characters motivations and often predict what will happen next. So for me, situational tv series - where the biggest risk is well situational (ie. put the characters in jeopardy, kill off a character, or flip them back in time) tends to bore me if they don't take a huge risk with the character as well. I like it when they take huge risks with character arcs. I like to be surprised - and it is hard to surprise me. And well, I'm admittedly a frustrated psychologist/philosopher at heart. But, after stating all that - I don't think it is that easy to explain why I like what I do and really dislike what I do. I'm moody. My tastes change based on mood and what I'm thinking or doing at any given time. So, unpredictable. And it is hard to remember that other people may differ, they don't think like me, and even though we are watching the same thing - they may be focusing on a part of the story, that I'm completely oblivious to, while I'm focusing on a part that they are.

Which is actually why it's so fun to get or read other's takes. Especially when they vary from my own. It can be frustrating too.

Thanks for taking the time to respond and for the advice on the computer. Emailed Alice - who suggested I ask you, since you've had both. My cousin, Heather, for some reason thinks the learning curve on Mac's is steep, but everyone including my brother vehmentally disagrees. My brother - I sort of trust on this - because he was the only one who could figure out the extreemly unfriendly and annoying MS-Dos computer we had when I was a kid.
He's telling me to get a 12 inch MacBook Pro lap-top - that's his preference.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Oh yes. The devil you know is a good metaphor for this.
I'll probably go with MacBook Pro - 12 inch, because I've been lusting after a Macbook for a while. But...sigh, the devil you know.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Curious, what was it that turned you off of the Cole/Phoebe relationship?

I know what turned me off - as Whedon put it in an interview, they basically did the whole Angel/Buffy relationship arc in the space of five episodes. Literally took four seasons of angst and did it in one year. And made it really silly and cliche ridden. What could have been interesting was turned into a cliche. Felt sorry for Julian Mahoun - who I loved on The Profiler. Was that it? OR something else?

I remember when I got turned off of Buffy/Angel - it was the episode I Will Always Remember You and then Sanctuary - when I realized that these were two characters who just did not "see" each other. What they saw was what they wanted to see. They were more interested in controlling the other person, then listening to them. Buffy didn't know Angel and Angel did not know Buffy, and they never would, because they could not get past what they wanted that person to be. Their ideal. It was the same thing that eventually turned me off of Riley/Buffy - in the episode Into the Woods - although I liked that episode a lot better than IWARY and liked Riley a lot better in it. When I realized neither character understood or truly saw the other character. And like Sanctuary and Yoko Factor, they reiterated this again in As You Were - where you realize that Riley doesn't understand anything about Buffy's life and she doesn't know anything about him, they don't "see" one another. That turned me off of both relationships. Although it didn't necessarily make me hate the characters, just the ships. If that makes sense. Just giving an example - because what I'm trying to figure out is what it is that turns us off.

[embers-log.livejournal.com]

regarding PCs, I had had way worse problems than you: I got hit by a number of viruses, I got screwed by microsoft making things obsolete so certain functions of my old computers would suddenly not work.... and no one who has an Apple/Mac product ever has that happen (that I've ever heard of).
When microsoft down loaded a new 'protection' for my old laptop they made it so I couldn't get online at unsecure coffee shops, which is the only thing I wanted to do! So I spend over a month trying to get their 'protections' back off of the computer....
but when I get a download for my iMac it never screws anything up, I can have confidence that it will just keep running really well. That confidence is worth the extra $ in my opinion.

So my distrust of microsoft isn't just Vista, it dates back to Windows95! lol

But I do know a lot of serious computer geeks who really love their PCs, and those people usually (in my experience) buy Dell.

Re: fandom stuff: actually I do enjoy reading/hearing other people's takes... but sometimes I feel that it just becomes like hate speech... and life is too short to have to listen to that.