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shadowkatI'll probably regret this post in the morning, then again maybe not. One never knows. About posts that this. One of the many hazards of writing and/or posting on the inter-webs. Some people never regret what they post. I envy that. Of course they don't tend post the silly things or post without editing first, I do. So there is that.
Reading Good Reads discussion threads and ahem Mark Watches review of Smashed (wish I hadn't, although his reaction I saw coming a mile away) this week...made me realize something, no matter where you go on the interwebs to discuss stuff, you will face the same people - no not the same "people" but the same...well posting personas. And dealing with them is a tricky business, particularly if you are like me, not that you are of course (perhaps I should stop using the personal pronoun you? Be safer at any rate), and have a tendency to fall into the same behavioral pattern yourself.
1. Trigger Boy or Trigger Girl - You've met this guy or gal. You may be them. (I was at different points - we are all to a degree, but there are extremes, and the extreme is the person who basically is nothing but one big trigger. The whole show is about them!). You'll be knee deep in a debate about a favorite character, and all of a sudden they tell you that wait - they were raped. Or abused by their ex-boyfriend. Or beaten by their parents. Or witnessed it. Or an evil boss bullied them. And the abuser/rapist/bully bares an uncanny behavioral resemblance to the character and/or relationship you happen to be debating. "This is a trigger for me" - they'll state. Or "You have to understand _____________ relationship reminds me of the abusive relationship I had with my ex. Who (raped/beat/abused) me for (period of time)." Then they will go into graphic detail. (For a recent example of Trigger Boy go to Mark Watches review of Smashed. Pretty much covers it. MARK is the poster child for "Trigger Boy". Trigger Boy/Girl perceives everything through an emotional lense and often relates it all back to their own horrible past. Note in most cases, they are happy now, and the abuse they are discussing is long over. ).
What to do? Back away slowly and do not engage. No good will come of it. You will look like a nasty bitca. And you're discussion successfully derailed. It's no longer objective, it's subjective. And it's emotional.
Although rest assured someone will engage them.
2. The Pedant or Grammar Nerd - Grammar Nerd will hijack your argument by correcting your punctuation, grammar, or syntax. Others may join in. Before long you have an entire discussion about whether your sentence was grammatically correct. Your whole argument is forgotten. And if you post again? You are self-conscious and want to have someone edit every post.
There's a lovely thread on Good Reads that demonstrates this: Effectively Slayed By Grammar Nerds on Good Reads. Read it, it's the most extreme instance of the grammar nerd that I've seen.
Possibly because the thread is about grammatical mistakes in Twilight, so that alone will attract every bored grammar nerd on the site.
How to handle? Politely thank them for correcting your grammar. And ask if they would like to be your personal beta for the duration? You can email all your posts to them so they can personally edit them first.
3. The Holier-than-Thou Culture Police: They like to attack fans for loving controversial characters, relationships, stories, and books. And will disparage anything that appears to them to be misogynistic, sexist, homophobic, racist, etc. From their perspective - all cultural items must be politically correct.
They will often state that a book is offensive to women and shouldn't be published. Or that fans of a character are sick or there's something wrong with them. Often they'll state that what disturbs them most is a fan loves an "obviously" abusive relationship or bad boyfriend and there's a risk this poor deluded soul will seek them out in reality. Another complaint? That the show or book or film is racist, misogynistic, or homophobic. They do not understand how it is possible that people see books or tv shows differently. Obviously this is racist, they will state, and if you can't see it? This is anti-femist! This is offensive to all women! If you can't see it? You are either a fool or racist/anti-feminist or misogynistic too.
How to handle? Do not engage. Back away slowly. No good will come of it.
4. The Culture Vulture: This person considers anything that is not "quality" as they define it - crap and should not be watched or read. They will mock it. They will say how it is beneath them. They will rant about how badly written it is. Filled with grammatical errors. Or it's a bad show.
How to handle? Do not engage. Back away slowly. There's no win here.
5. The Snark: This persona likes to make fun or mock things. They are quick with a one-liner. It's often sarcastic. (I unfortunately am guilty of this, although it is fun.)
And this is often used as either a defense mechanism or it's meant as a joke. There are degrees...though, the extreme version is really nasty and mean - see TWOYP thread for an example. That site attracts a lot of snarks.
How to handle: Don't take them seriously. And don't engage. Or..snark back. Make fun together, keep it light.
6. The Cheerleader - this persona loves everything. Squees about everything. Wants everyone to like them. They are chatty and nice, and often post GIPs. They also cheer on underdogs.
How to handle: Stay positive. Don't make fun of them. And trade GIPs.
7. The Devil's Advocate: They love to argue. They will literally debate anything. You have no idea what their true stance is. They often argue both.
How to handle: Don't get emotional. Stick with rational argument.
8. Emo Girl or Boy: They get emotional over everything. Take everything personally. Can't see sarcasm at all. And will often provide hugs at the end of every post. And are highly empathetic to others. They don't tend to deal with the Snark or Devil's Advocate very well. And are combustible when you put them with Emo Boy or Girl.
How to handle: Difficult. Depends on the situation and who they are up against. In most cases, they are lovable souls. But avoid snarking to them at all costs, and try to keep them away from the Devil's Advocate.
9. The Expert: This person knows EVERYTHING there is to know about the book or show. They will often litter their posts with links, exact dialogue, interview quotes, etc. They know all the writers, titles, dialogue, and can spell the names of every character. They also know everything that happened back stage. (sigh, I unfortunately have fallen under this category - go read my posts). They are detail oriented and feel at times like a human encyclopedia of trivial information. (Actually I think 95% of my flist is like this - geeks seek each other out. I love the Expert.)
How to handle? Probably best to be nice and thankful. Polite corrections only.
10. The Fact Checker: Requests back-up or proof of everything. They will nit-pick your accuracy on facts. If you misquote a writer - they'll tell you. They will ask for links to any interview you provide - as back-up. And often will provide links that show you are wrong.
How to handle? Thank them for the catch. Back away after that. Possibly even correct your post and credit them. Don't fight them - it doesn't end well. I know it is tempting.
11. The Troll: Often spams discussion threads. Breaks the rules of the thread deliberately. Is there to cause trouble.
How to handle: Summarily Ban. (Disclaimer - I've not banned any trolls on lj.)
12. The Trickster Clown: This person just goofs off, everything is a joke to them. They come up with funny posting names, and don't take anything seriously. The internet is just a big sandbox. They will play pranks and tricks. Post nonsense.
How to handle: Have fun with them. Don't take them personally. Don't react.
13. The Great Debator: Not to be confused with internet bully. They want to win the argument and often are aggressive. They don't stop until they win.
How to handle: Just say it's time we agreed to respectfully disagree. They'll back off.
14. The Internet Bully: Bullies people into seeing their point of view. Often has a bunch of groupies. Who they gather up to invade posts. Their aim is to cause a flame war. Often discussions with the internet bully will end in name-calling. They don't give up. They will harass and will stalk. Can come across self-righteous.
How to handle? Summarily ban. And ignore. Ban their friends if they bring them.
15. The Self-Appointed Defender : This is a fan of a writer, show, character, actor, actress - and they feel the need to swoop to this person's or show's aid. If you so much as frown at it - they will be all over you. Attacking you as if you attacked their baby or puppy.
How to handle? Back away slowly. Do not engage. They will bring reinforcements. Just politely state that you view it differently and that you are sorry you offended them.
Finally...on all discussion boards, blogs, etc...you will be at the mercy of The Moderator - this is the person or persons who moderate and often facilitate the discussion, they may own the site. They make the rules. The site or blog is their personality. If they don't own it, they are friends with or employees of the site. Their job is stop flame wars and keep the peace. And they have a tough job.
How to handle? Be their friend. Respect them. Keep in mind they get all the email messages. And that if a flame war breaks out - it's in their home. Don't piss them off. Don't bully them or spoil them. If you post long posts - thank them and ask if it is okay. They have the power to ban or boot your ass off the forum if you don't behave.
Disclaimer: This is purely based on my own experiences on the net. Mileage may vary. And I've seen these personas on every fan discussion board or forum on the net. The key I've found to surviving an internet discussion is politeness, backing away or leaving when you get angry and never posting in anger, staying away from people who make you crazy or angry.
If you get into a heated discussion and you realize it's going to derail...politely state it is time we agree to disagree. Then leave.
With my brother...whenever we argue, I often think, damn, I need the last word. It's stupid. I know. Having the last word doesn't mean you won. It may just mean the other person got tired of arguing with you or bored of the discussion.
Reading Good Reads discussion threads and ahem Mark Watches review of Smashed (wish I hadn't, although his reaction I saw coming a mile away) this week...made me realize something, no matter where you go on the interwebs to discuss stuff, you will face the same people - no not the same "people" but the same...well posting personas. And dealing with them is a tricky business, particularly if you are like me, not that you are of course (perhaps I should stop using the personal pronoun you? Be safer at any rate), and have a tendency to fall into the same behavioral pattern yourself.
1. Trigger Boy or Trigger Girl - You've met this guy or gal. You may be them. (I was at different points - we are all to a degree, but there are extremes, and the extreme is the person who basically is nothing but one big trigger. The whole show is about them!). You'll be knee deep in a debate about a favorite character, and all of a sudden they tell you that wait - they were raped. Or abused by their ex-boyfriend. Or beaten by their parents. Or witnessed it. Or an evil boss bullied them. And the abuser/rapist/bully bares an uncanny behavioral resemblance to the character and/or relationship you happen to be debating. "This is a trigger for me" - they'll state. Or "You have to understand _____________ relationship reminds me of the abusive relationship I had with my ex. Who (raped/beat/abused) me for (period of time)." Then they will go into graphic detail. (For a recent example of Trigger Boy go to Mark Watches review of Smashed. Pretty much covers it. MARK is the poster child for "Trigger Boy". Trigger Boy/Girl perceives everything through an emotional lense and often relates it all back to their own horrible past. Note in most cases, they are happy now, and the abuse they are discussing is long over. ).
What to do? Back away slowly and do not engage. No good will come of it. You will look like a nasty bitca. And you're discussion successfully derailed. It's no longer objective, it's subjective. And it's emotional.
Although rest assured someone will engage them.
2. The Pedant or Grammar Nerd - Grammar Nerd will hijack your argument by correcting your punctuation, grammar, or syntax. Others may join in. Before long you have an entire discussion about whether your sentence was grammatically correct. Your whole argument is forgotten. And if you post again? You are self-conscious and want to have someone edit every post.
There's a lovely thread on Good Reads that demonstrates this: Effectively Slayed By Grammar Nerds on Good Reads. Read it, it's the most extreme instance of the grammar nerd that I've seen.
Possibly because the thread is about grammatical mistakes in Twilight, so that alone will attract every bored grammar nerd on the site.
How to handle? Politely thank them for correcting your grammar. And ask if they would like to be your personal beta for the duration? You can email all your posts to them so they can personally edit them first.
3. The Holier-than-Thou Culture Police: They like to attack fans for loving controversial characters, relationships, stories, and books. And will disparage anything that appears to them to be misogynistic, sexist, homophobic, racist, etc. From their perspective - all cultural items must be politically correct.
They will often state that a book is offensive to women and shouldn't be published. Or that fans of a character are sick or there's something wrong with them. Often they'll state that what disturbs them most is a fan loves an "obviously" abusive relationship or bad boyfriend and there's a risk this poor deluded soul will seek them out in reality. Another complaint? That the show or book or film is racist, misogynistic, or homophobic. They do not understand how it is possible that people see books or tv shows differently. Obviously this is racist, they will state, and if you can't see it? This is anti-femist! This is offensive to all women! If you can't see it? You are either a fool or racist/anti-feminist or misogynistic too.
How to handle? Do not engage. Back away slowly. No good will come of it.
4. The Culture Vulture: This person considers anything that is not "quality" as they define it - crap and should not be watched or read. They will mock it. They will say how it is beneath them. They will rant about how badly written it is. Filled with grammatical errors. Or it's a bad show.
How to handle? Do not engage. Back away slowly. There's no win here.
5. The Snark: This persona likes to make fun or mock things. They are quick with a one-liner. It's often sarcastic. (I unfortunately am guilty of this, although it is fun.)
And this is often used as either a defense mechanism or it's meant as a joke. There are degrees...though, the extreme version is really nasty and mean - see TWOYP thread for an example. That site attracts a lot of snarks.
How to handle: Don't take them seriously. And don't engage. Or..snark back. Make fun together, keep it light.
6. The Cheerleader - this persona loves everything. Squees about everything. Wants everyone to like them. They are chatty and nice, and often post GIPs. They also cheer on underdogs.
How to handle: Stay positive. Don't make fun of them. And trade GIPs.
7. The Devil's Advocate: They love to argue. They will literally debate anything. You have no idea what their true stance is. They often argue both.
How to handle: Don't get emotional. Stick with rational argument.
8. Emo Girl or Boy: They get emotional over everything. Take everything personally. Can't see sarcasm at all. And will often provide hugs at the end of every post. And are highly empathetic to others. They don't tend to deal with the Snark or Devil's Advocate very well. And are combustible when you put them with Emo Boy or Girl.
How to handle: Difficult. Depends on the situation and who they are up against. In most cases, they are lovable souls. But avoid snarking to them at all costs, and try to keep them away from the Devil's Advocate.
9. The Expert: This person knows EVERYTHING there is to know about the book or show. They will often litter their posts with links, exact dialogue, interview quotes, etc. They know all the writers, titles, dialogue, and can spell the names of every character. They also know everything that happened back stage. (sigh, I unfortunately have fallen under this category - go read my posts). They are detail oriented and feel at times like a human encyclopedia of trivial information. (Actually I think 95% of my flist is like this - geeks seek each other out. I love the Expert.)
How to handle? Probably best to be nice and thankful. Polite corrections only.
10. The Fact Checker: Requests back-up or proof of everything. They will nit-pick your accuracy on facts. If you misquote a writer - they'll tell you. They will ask for links to any interview you provide - as back-up. And often will provide links that show you are wrong.
How to handle? Thank them for the catch. Back away after that. Possibly even correct your post and credit them. Don't fight them - it doesn't end well. I know it is tempting.
11. The Troll: Often spams discussion threads. Breaks the rules of the thread deliberately. Is there to cause trouble.
How to handle: Summarily Ban. (Disclaimer - I've not banned any trolls on lj.)
12. The Trickster Clown: This person just goofs off, everything is a joke to them. They come up with funny posting names, and don't take anything seriously. The internet is just a big sandbox. They will play pranks and tricks. Post nonsense.
How to handle: Have fun with them. Don't take them personally. Don't react.
13. The Great Debator: Not to be confused with internet bully. They want to win the argument and often are aggressive. They don't stop until they win.
How to handle: Just say it's time we agreed to respectfully disagree. They'll back off.
14. The Internet Bully: Bullies people into seeing their point of view. Often has a bunch of groupies. Who they gather up to invade posts. Their aim is to cause a flame war. Often discussions with the internet bully will end in name-calling. They don't give up. They will harass and will stalk. Can come across self-righteous.
How to handle? Summarily ban. And ignore. Ban their friends if they bring them.
15. The Self-Appointed Defender : This is a fan of a writer, show, character, actor, actress - and they feel the need to swoop to this person's or show's aid. If you so much as frown at it - they will be all over you. Attacking you as if you attacked their baby or puppy.
How to handle? Back away slowly. Do not engage. They will bring reinforcements. Just politely state that you view it differently and that you are sorry you offended them.
Finally...on all discussion boards, blogs, etc...you will be at the mercy of The Moderator - this is the person or persons who moderate and often facilitate the discussion, they may own the site. They make the rules. The site or blog is their personality. If they don't own it, they are friends with or employees of the site. Their job is stop flame wars and keep the peace. And they have a tough job.
How to handle? Be their friend. Respect them. Keep in mind they get all the email messages. And that if a flame war breaks out - it's in their home. Don't piss them off. Don't bully them or spoil them. If you post long posts - thank them and ask if it is okay. They have the power to ban or boot your ass off the forum if you don't behave.
Disclaimer: This is purely based on my own experiences on the net. Mileage may vary. And I've seen these personas on every fan discussion board or forum on the net. The key I've found to surviving an internet discussion is politeness, backing away or leaving when you get angry and never posting in anger, staying away from people who make you crazy or angry.
If you get into a heated discussion and you realize it's going to derail...politely state it is time we agree to disagree. Then leave.
With my brother...whenever we argue, I often think, damn, I need the last word. It's stupid. I know. Having the last word doesn't mean you won. It may just mean the other person got tired of arguing with you or bored of the discussion.
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no subject
Date: 2012-07-21 01:53 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-07-21 02:10 am (UTC)Good Reads Threads are hilarious, because I've seen all these personalities pop up and even worse than they were in the Buffy fandom.
The Grammar nerd kerfuffle has to be seen to be believed. Seriously, talk about some bored English PH.D's.
no subject
Date: 2012-07-21 02:12 am (UTC)2. Grammar Nerd. If one is dyslexic like you or I, these folks are pretty unpleasant. They do seem to feed off each other. It would be nice if they'd stick to their own sites and giggle about how dumb everyone else is where they can't be heard.
3. Culture Police. I don't remember encountering anyone like this, but I'm positive they are out there. I think they'd quickly get run out of most sites I've been.
4. Culture Vulture. I'm at least partially guilty of that. I mock Romance novels and never got hooked even as a kid on adventure comics rather than funny ones. Too many friends like these things, so I behave myself a little better now. But even now whenever I see Captain America I feel this irresistible urge to mock. ;o)
5. The Snark. Guilty. Maybe we snarks should stick to our own sites so we can giggle about what everyone else is serious about.
6.Cheerleader. ATPO's official cheerleader was such a nice kid it was hard to gripe.
7. Devil Advocate. I could do that, but that's kind of an act that works best in high school.
8. Emo kids. They and I are unmixy things.
9. Expert. It would be easier to count the ones that weren't on ATPo than those that were. Maybe ATPo was the site where we experts giggled about everyone who wasn't.
10. Fact Checker. I'm guily of that too. Other's don't hate you as much if you let them catch you in mistakes, too. (see experts)
11. The Troll. Another thing that seems a lot cooler to be in high school.
12. The Trickster. These are the folks that just don't ever seem to figure out how unpopular they are and give up. On ATPo I don't know who was worse "Claudia" or "Boke.com"
13 The Great Debator. I think any serious discussion site attracts these. I'd be one, but I think I've learned that your arguments work better if you make your case and then shut up and let the other person think about it. At least I can do that in real life.
14. Internet Bullies. We were pretty good at stomping these on ATPo. But not so good on other sites I've been on.
15. Self Appointed Defender. Without really good arguments these folks would get very lonely on the sites I've been on. I think this is why ATPo scared people. ;o)
no subject
Date: 2012-07-21 03:07 am (UTC)Oh yes. Very Guilty. Five of my Buffy comic reviews are pure Snark. Was doing it for a bit with Vamp Diaries...but the snark was pissing people off, so I stopped. I also snark about romance novels, which pisses people off. I make fun of what I like and mock it. But..not everyone does.
8. Emo kids. They and I are unmixy things.
Yes, Emo and Snark are very unmixy things. You do not want them together on a thread.
I know whereof I speak. And, alas, this is why I've had to tame my snark on the net at times.
Another person who hates snark is the Self-Appointed Defender, they despise snark.
Grammar Nerd. If one is dyslexic like you or I, these folks are pretty unpleasant. They do seem to feed off each other. It would be nice if they'd stick to their own sites and giggle about how dumb everyone else is where they can't be heard.
Oh yes. They drive me nuts. Whedonesque has quite a few of them. There's this one guy who invaded a post I did on Dollhouse and literally reamed me for using the word "squick". LOL!
You are right, they feed off each other like crazy. The Good Reads Thread is a thing of beauty. It has got to be the most hilarious instance that I've seen to date.
What happened was this - a English Ph.D major made the mistake of posting about Twilight's grammatical errors. And someone came back and said that she should make sure her grammar was accurate before going after Twilight. (Self-Appointed Defender). Which resulted in someone else tearing apart her sentence and explaining in detail where she erred. And then they began arguing over how to write her sentence correctly. It just went on from there.
At some point she comes back, understandably pissed, and says - "OMG, I can't believe you are tearing apart my sentence. It's a discussion board.
WTF? How much time do you have on your hands?"
I laughed my head off, because I know what that feels like and the grammar nerds really did look like idiots. Who just kept digging themselves deeper and deeper into a hole.
no subject
Date: 2012-07-21 07:46 am (UTC)Only five? I think the majority of mine are. Certainly after the bankrobbing, when I stopped being able to take them remotely seriously. It surprised me a bit, because I'd not know I had quite such a talent. But... it *is* fun, and the Self-proclaimed Defenders somehow never had a problem with me (probably because the rest of the time I'm an Expert and a Cheerleader). But oh, I could mock for England...
Anyway, fabulous post. The majority of the hardcore Mark-crowd seem to be composed of Trigger Persons and the Holier-than-Thou Culture Police. I got a smack on the wrist yesterday for using the word 'lunatics' (re. the mad fringes of the Buffy & Harry Potter fandoms...). Had to bite my tongue not to mention that ACTUAL lunatics I'd met online. (One especially who I sincerely hope is getting genuine help. He actually scared me.)
(no subject)
From:no subject
Date: 2012-07-21 03:18 am (UTC)I think Drzzzt is sort of a combo of Trickster and Troll. But was also harmless.
The ATPO board was different from a lot of fan boards, because it was older.
The vast majority of posters were above the age of 30. It was also a board that attracted "The Expert" personality, Devil's Advocate, and Great Debator like crazy. These three personalities tend to scare off Emo, Trigger Boy, and
Self-Appointed Defenders. Although on lj Self-Appointed Defender's travel in packs, I've discovered. I got invaded by a bunch of Charisma Carpenter SAD's a while back - it was ugly.
The other big difference was that it was not a spoiler board. Spoiler boards attracted a much larger group of people.
(no subject)
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From:no subject
Date: 2012-07-21 02:17 am (UTC)Frankly, I was rather appalled by the conduct of the mods and admin in this debate. They're the ones supposed to keep the peace and be level-headed, and they were the ones slinging most of the hostility and insults. Not cool, not cool at all.
I think I'm pretty much done with Mark's sites. The nominal enjoyment I get from reading the reviews just isn't worth the hostility and drama, or the unease I get about posting anything there.
no subject
Date: 2012-07-21 02:50 am (UTC)After I read the Smashed Review (I avoided the comments thread like the plague and have been since the beginning and never post) - I knew exactly what would happen. I actually predicted it when he first started posting on Spike. He reminds me a great deal of a guy that I interacted with on a fan board way back in 2002-2003. This guy was a lot like Mark. So much so, I sometimes wonder if they are one and the same. Trigger Boy big time. He over-identified with Willow/Tara, and saw Spike as his evil ex. You couldn't discuss the show with him. He wasn't rational.
I read the Wrecked review - it's not bad. Which was surprising. So clearly something happened, and Mark figured out that he had to be a bit more careful in his reviews. According to the comments...there were apparently 10 million responses, and most were filtered or deleted. So, I'm guessing, really bad kerfuffle?
Not at all surprised. His review on Smashed was...a perfect example of a Trigger Boy post. And he'd stated various times in earlier posts how he had this horribly abusive relationship in high school or in his early 20s. So yep, Trigger Boy.
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Date: 2012-07-21 09:22 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-07-21 10:40 am (UTC)I've come to the conclusion that no matter what, that part is always true. People might try to fight it, some will be more aware of it than others, but at the end of the day, we're not as rational as we like to believe, and all of our discussions are colored by our own subjective views, all the feelings getting in the way.
Rationally you might know that what character A did isn't all that bad but it bugs you, or character B sorta looks like someone you know, and eventually rationality goes out the window and all that's left is an attempt at rationalizing your feelings.
Fandom discussions end being as much about the person making them, as about whatever they truly are, but it's depressing that we're still having fandom wars about Buffy in 2012.
no subject
Date: 2012-07-21 11:53 am (UTC)(no subject)
From:no subject
Date: 2012-07-21 02:13 pm (UTC)Very true. When you fall in love with something or become obsessed (basically the definition of "fan" short for "fanatic", rationality goes out the window. Some are more rational than others.
You should see the 50 Shades of Grey discussions on Good Reads - they remind me a lot of the Buffy fandom interactions.
Fandom discussions end being as much about the person making them, as about whatever they truly are, but it's depressing that we're still having fandom wars about Buffy in 2012.
I think it really has a lot to do with accessibility to each other or the internet. On the internet you can obsess about something forever. Many people are still fans because of the other people they are interacting with.
I know, for example, that I would have lost interest in Buffy ages ago if it weren't for the internet fandom. If I write about Buffy? I get 50 comments.
If I write about Breaking Bad or the latest book I read or a film I saw?
0-10 if I am lucky.
We want to connect to others. Find a common interest. And for a lot of people that's Buffy. So in reality the fights you see really aren't about Buffy at all - they are about personality conflicts between fans or other things.
A lot of people who dislike Spike, don't dislike the character at all, they are angry at some of his fans - same with Angel or Xander, it's not the character that annoys them, it's this specific fan. Or someone the character reminds them of.
Add to that...Buffy resonated on an emotional level with a wide-range of people that many tv shows and books don't. Loosely written shows that focus on emotion often will.
no subject
Date: 2012-07-21 12:30 pm (UTC)Great post, btw. I think the Holier Than Thou Culture Police are the worst of the bunch.
no subject
Date: 2012-07-21 02:23 pm (UTC)I agree. They make me crazy. And furious. I lose my temper with the Holier-than-Thous, and turn into the Self-Appointed Defender of the masses. No one is guaranteed to bring out the bitch in me quicker than a holier-than-thou comment or post. LOL!
I've been watching all of this at a distance
I managed to miss it. While I do read or rather skim his posts, I avoid the comments threads and have rarely read them. Also no access to lj or sites like Mark's at work - they entirely blocked. So I've been hanging out during lunch on Good Reads, which has had similar kerfuffles, albeit not as bad...as the MArk Watches one apparently, over Twilight and 50 Shades of Grey. LOL! I don't know what it is about kinky female sexual fantasy that gets people so riled up...maybe it is the gender inequality in our society and our society's unhealthy focus on violence? Don't know.
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Date: 2012-07-21 03:23 pm (UTC)I found the idea that Spike was abusing Buffy in that particular episode totally off the wall. But the response of not just Mark, but the mods and some other posters was nothing short of abusive. And they were abusing real people, not characters on a TV show.
After I read that he posted a sort of apology I went and looked at it. That was not an apology. That was just more self-justification. I had absolutely no interest in reading his review for that episode. The site gives me such a bad feeling now I don't think I would ever enjoy it again.
It's unfortunate that all of the Spuffy and Spike fans have been chased off, because there will be no one to offer a more reasonable point of view about anything. This has happened to so many fan sites and unfortunately that's why nobody gets how popular Spike and Spuffy are (like Allie until recently).
Elisi did a good job of reasonably defending but honestly why would any Spuffy want to subject themselves to that site? They shouldn't. It's not healthy.
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Date: 2012-07-21 04:25 pm (UTC)http://www.journalfen.net/community/wank_report/1488.html?thread=8540880#t8540880
And apparently his behavior has alienated a lot of people who don't even like Spuffy or Spike. I knew he was going to run into problems after I did my character polls - 54% of 110 were reading Mark Watches, of that percentage, 90% were unabashed Spike and Spuffy fans participating in discussions and had been for quite some time.
Truth is? Mark's behavior isn't an isolated case. I've seen similar outbursts and behavior on Good Reads regarding 50 Shades of Grey and the sexual relationship in that novel. For some reason or other, people have problems with female sexual fantasy...particularly if it doesn't fit in their box. The post I wrote above was mostly inspired by my interactions on Good Reads lately...because LJ and Mark Watches and other related sites are blocked at work. At lunch, I entertain myself with Good Reads.
And discovered yep, these people really do exist everywhere. The difference between Good Reads or even Buffyforums and Mark Watches - is that the moderator or owner of the site is rational and objective. They aren't emotionally invested, so aren't attacking people and know when to boot people out or slap them. The best sites to visit are one's moderated by people who are more rational/analytical and less emotional, who stay more or less objective.
My main issue with MARK and it's one I've been having for some time now, is I don't trust anything he says. I strongly believe the whole site is an act or scam. He's a marketing guy who read a book on how to write a web site that brings in money and that's his product. There's far too many contradictions and inconsistencies. Fandom Wank thread picks up on all of them. The boy states that he has a degree in Marketing in one post, in another he says he didn't graduate from college and couldn't afford it.
In another post he says, he had to support himself at the age of 16 and was broke. While in another he went to prom and his mother wouldn't let him watch tv or listen to records. Yet his favorite show was The X-Files as a teen and his sister was watching Buffy?
Alrighty then.
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Date: 2012-07-21 09:32 pm (UTC)Thank you. And... I've had enough (as you probably saw from my LJ). He's been more or less polite when dealing with me, but that has obviously just been luck or goodness knows what. And it's exhausting talking to people who constantly try to derail you and misinterpret what you say. Life's too short - esp as RL is eating me alive already.
It's unfortunate that all of the Spuffy and Spike fans have been chased off, because there will be no one to offer a more reasonable point of view about anything. This has happened to so many fan sites and unfortunately that's why nobody gets how popular Spike and Spuffy are (like Allie until recently).
Mmm. Very true. But at least Mark will know that he's only got himself to blame. Particularly as I told him how marginalised that part of fandom had always been, and how people now very clearly interpreted his actions as 'This is another place that's not safe for us'. (Which is nicely ironic considering how he's such a stickler for PC language & behaviour, as he wants his site to be 'safe' for everyone. Although I let that part be inferred - I presumed he's intelligent enough to get the message...)
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Date: 2012-07-21 03:24 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-07-21 04:11 pm (UTC)(I know I've been guilty of at least six of them myself. LOL!)
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Date: 2012-07-22 03:21 pm (UTC)Z
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Date: 2012-07-22 09:57 pm (UTC)Great job with this post. I found it very entertaining to read while thinking about other people that I have encountered online. :)
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Date: 2012-07-22 11:35 pm (UTC)Re: yes
Date: 2012-07-23 02:04 am (UTC)I was thisclose to doing it myself. And I really wanted to get my flist to do it for me.
Now if only someone would go and make fun of the Holier Than Thou Culture Police...they drive me crazy. But unlike the grammar nerds on Good Reads, don't have a sense of humor.
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Date: 2012-07-27 12:48 am (UTC)I am happily away from "Mark watches" kerfuffle (read him once, got bored, left), but there is a strange fascination with the whole idea that Spike Wars are still on.
I definitely saw all these types of fans in all fandoms I was part of - from Buffy to babies, and in both languages I speak. It was easier to argue about child-rearing after Spike, even though things could get even more brutal.
And I find that I am annoyed by the Culture police the most, because they poison my enjoyment.
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Date: 2012-07-27 01:46 am (UTC)They forget there are other ways of interpreting the text, not just theirs.
I definitely saw all these types of fans in all fandoms I was part of - from Buffy to babies, and in both languages I speak. It was easier to argue about child-rearing after Spike, even though things could get even more brutal.
My sisinlaw reported to me once that sites regarding child rearing can be brutal. I think she got into a fight with someone once regarding the fact that her kid couldn't sleep.
there is a strange fascination with the whole idea that Spike Wars are still on.
I was thinking about this today. And I think I know why...or rather why of all the ships, the Spuffy ship seems to be the strongest fan group now as does the Spike ship while other fan ships have dispersed.
At least as far as I can tell.
Whedon left Spuffy unresolved. He resolved Bangle more or less - Buffy told Angel good-bye, that she didn't really need him anymore. And he resolved Willow/Tara - Tara died. He resolved Anya/Xander - Anya died.
Cordelia died. Wes died. Gunn most likely died. Fred died and became Illyria and wasn't on long enough to grab enough support. Connor - very few people liked to begin with (I was one of them). Dawn (ditto).
Andrew (ditto). Faith's arc - resolved.
But Buffy tells Spike she loves him as he's dying, he tells "no you don't". He dies. He comes back to life on Angel. We never see Buffy find out he's alive. She doesn't appear to even know. Spike never reaches closure with her. They never really have THAT conversation.
It's left hanging. As is Spike's story in a way. Spike's story in Angel is all about Angel. So we don't see much.
The comics pop up. Still no closure. We still don't know how Buffy feels about Spike. It's been what? five, six, seven years of comics?
We still don't know where the relationship is going or what Spike will do. Angel - has his own comic with Faith, Angel and Buffy again were given closure. Spike no.
So...the fans who were into the character and ship want a resolution.
They want to know if Buffy loved Spike. If she does love him.
The fans who do not care and don't want to know...don't understand this and wish they'd stop asking. That's a simplistic version...