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shadowkatI'll probably regret this post in the morning, then again maybe not. One never knows. About posts that this. One of the many hazards of writing and/or posting on the inter-webs. Some people never regret what they post. I envy that. Of course they don't tend post the silly things or post without editing first, I do. So there is that.
Reading Good Reads discussion threads and ahem Mark Watches review of Smashed (wish I hadn't, although his reaction I saw coming a mile away) this week...made me realize something, no matter where you go on the interwebs to discuss stuff, you will face the same people - no not the same "people" but the same...well posting personas. And dealing with them is a tricky business, particularly if you are like me, not that you are of course (perhaps I should stop using the personal pronoun you? Be safer at any rate), and have a tendency to fall into the same behavioral pattern yourself.
1. Trigger Boy or Trigger Girl - You've met this guy or gal. You may be them. (I was at different points - we are all to a degree, but there are extremes, and the extreme is the person who basically is nothing but one big trigger. The whole show is about them!). You'll be knee deep in a debate about a favorite character, and all of a sudden they tell you that wait - they were raped. Or abused by their ex-boyfriend. Or beaten by their parents. Or witnessed it. Or an evil boss bullied them. And the abuser/rapist/bully bares an uncanny behavioral resemblance to the character and/or relationship you happen to be debating. "This is a trigger for me" - they'll state. Or "You have to understand _____________ relationship reminds me of the abusive relationship I had with my ex. Who (raped/beat/abused) me for (period of time)." Then they will go into graphic detail. (For a recent example of Trigger Boy go to Mark Watches review of Smashed. Pretty much covers it. MARK is the poster child for "Trigger Boy". Trigger Boy/Girl perceives everything through an emotional lense and often relates it all back to their own horrible past. Note in most cases, they are happy now, and the abuse they are discussing is long over. ).
What to do? Back away slowly and do not engage. No good will come of it. You will look like a nasty bitca. And you're discussion successfully derailed. It's no longer objective, it's subjective. And it's emotional.
Although rest assured someone will engage them.
2. The Pedant or Grammar Nerd - Grammar Nerd will hijack your argument by correcting your punctuation, grammar, or syntax. Others may join in. Before long you have an entire discussion about whether your sentence was grammatically correct. Your whole argument is forgotten. And if you post again? You are self-conscious and want to have someone edit every post.
There's a lovely thread on Good Reads that demonstrates this: Effectively Slayed By Grammar Nerds on Good Reads. Read it, it's the most extreme instance of the grammar nerd that I've seen.
Possibly because the thread is about grammatical mistakes in Twilight, so that alone will attract every bored grammar nerd on the site.
How to handle? Politely thank them for correcting your grammar. And ask if they would like to be your personal beta for the duration? You can email all your posts to them so they can personally edit them first.
3. The Holier-than-Thou Culture Police: They like to attack fans for loving controversial characters, relationships, stories, and books. And will disparage anything that appears to them to be misogynistic, sexist, homophobic, racist, etc. From their perspective - all cultural items must be politically correct.
They will often state that a book is offensive to women and shouldn't be published. Or that fans of a character are sick or there's something wrong with them. Often they'll state that what disturbs them most is a fan loves an "obviously" abusive relationship or bad boyfriend and there's a risk this poor deluded soul will seek them out in reality. Another complaint? That the show or book or film is racist, misogynistic, or homophobic. They do not understand how it is possible that people see books or tv shows differently. Obviously this is racist, they will state, and if you can't see it? This is anti-femist! This is offensive to all women! If you can't see it? You are either a fool or racist/anti-feminist or misogynistic too.
How to handle? Do not engage. Back away slowly. No good will come of it.
4. The Culture Vulture: This person considers anything that is not "quality" as they define it - crap and should not be watched or read. They will mock it. They will say how it is beneath them. They will rant about how badly written it is. Filled with grammatical errors. Or it's a bad show.
How to handle? Do not engage. Back away slowly. There's no win here.
5. The Snark: This persona likes to make fun or mock things. They are quick with a one-liner. It's often sarcastic. (I unfortunately am guilty of this, although it is fun.)
And this is often used as either a defense mechanism or it's meant as a joke. There are degrees...though, the extreme version is really nasty and mean - see TWOYP thread for an example. That site attracts a lot of snarks.
How to handle: Don't take them seriously. And don't engage. Or..snark back. Make fun together, keep it light.
6. The Cheerleader - this persona loves everything. Squees about everything. Wants everyone to like them. They are chatty and nice, and often post GIPs. They also cheer on underdogs.
How to handle: Stay positive. Don't make fun of them. And trade GIPs.
7. The Devil's Advocate: They love to argue. They will literally debate anything. You have no idea what their true stance is. They often argue both.
How to handle: Don't get emotional. Stick with rational argument.
8. Emo Girl or Boy: They get emotional over everything. Take everything personally. Can't see sarcasm at all. And will often provide hugs at the end of every post. And are highly empathetic to others. They don't tend to deal with the Snark or Devil's Advocate very well. And are combustible when you put them with Emo Boy or Girl.
How to handle: Difficult. Depends on the situation and who they are up against. In most cases, they are lovable souls. But avoid snarking to them at all costs, and try to keep them away from the Devil's Advocate.
9. The Expert: This person knows EVERYTHING there is to know about the book or show. They will often litter their posts with links, exact dialogue, interview quotes, etc. They know all the writers, titles, dialogue, and can spell the names of every character. They also know everything that happened back stage. (sigh, I unfortunately have fallen under this category - go read my posts). They are detail oriented and feel at times like a human encyclopedia of trivial information. (Actually I think 95% of my flist is like this - geeks seek each other out. I love the Expert.)
How to handle? Probably best to be nice and thankful. Polite corrections only.
10. The Fact Checker: Requests back-up or proof of everything. They will nit-pick your accuracy on facts. If you misquote a writer - they'll tell you. They will ask for links to any interview you provide - as back-up. And often will provide links that show you are wrong.
How to handle? Thank them for the catch. Back away after that. Possibly even correct your post and credit them. Don't fight them - it doesn't end well. I know it is tempting.
11. The Troll: Often spams discussion threads. Breaks the rules of the thread deliberately. Is there to cause trouble.
How to handle: Summarily Ban. (Disclaimer - I've not banned any trolls on lj.)
12. The Trickster Clown: This person just goofs off, everything is a joke to them. They come up with funny posting names, and don't take anything seriously. The internet is just a big sandbox. They will play pranks and tricks. Post nonsense.
How to handle: Have fun with them. Don't take them personally. Don't react.
13. The Great Debator: Not to be confused with internet bully. They want to win the argument and often are aggressive. They don't stop until they win.
How to handle: Just say it's time we agreed to respectfully disagree. They'll back off.
14. The Internet Bully: Bullies people into seeing their point of view. Often has a bunch of groupies. Who they gather up to invade posts. Their aim is to cause a flame war. Often discussions with the internet bully will end in name-calling. They don't give up. They will harass and will stalk. Can come across self-righteous.
How to handle? Summarily ban. And ignore. Ban their friends if they bring them.
15. The Self-Appointed Defender : This is a fan of a writer, show, character, actor, actress - and they feel the need to swoop to this person's or show's aid. If you so much as frown at it - they will be all over you. Attacking you as if you attacked their baby or puppy.
How to handle? Back away slowly. Do not engage. They will bring reinforcements. Just politely state that you view it differently and that you are sorry you offended them.
Finally...on all discussion boards, blogs, etc...you will be at the mercy of The Moderator - this is the person or persons who moderate and often facilitate the discussion, they may own the site. They make the rules. The site or blog is their personality. If they don't own it, they are friends with or employees of the site. Their job is stop flame wars and keep the peace. And they have a tough job.
How to handle? Be their friend. Respect them. Keep in mind they get all the email messages. And that if a flame war breaks out - it's in their home. Don't piss them off. Don't bully them or spoil them. If you post long posts - thank them and ask if it is okay. They have the power to ban or boot your ass off the forum if you don't behave.
Disclaimer: This is purely based on my own experiences on the net. Mileage may vary. And I've seen these personas on every fan discussion board or forum on the net. The key I've found to surviving an internet discussion is politeness, backing away or leaving when you get angry and never posting in anger, staying away from people who make you crazy or angry.
If you get into a heated discussion and you realize it's going to derail...politely state it is time we agree to disagree. Then leave.
With my brother...whenever we argue, I often think, damn, I need the last word. It's stupid. I know. Having the last word doesn't mean you won. It may just mean the other person got tired of arguing with you or bored of the discussion.
Reading Good Reads discussion threads and ahem Mark Watches review of Smashed (wish I hadn't, although his reaction I saw coming a mile away) this week...made me realize something, no matter where you go on the interwebs to discuss stuff, you will face the same people - no not the same "people" but the same...well posting personas. And dealing with them is a tricky business, particularly if you are like me, not that you are of course (perhaps I should stop using the personal pronoun you? Be safer at any rate), and have a tendency to fall into the same behavioral pattern yourself.
1. Trigger Boy or Trigger Girl - You've met this guy or gal. You may be them. (I was at different points - we are all to a degree, but there are extremes, and the extreme is the person who basically is nothing but one big trigger. The whole show is about them!). You'll be knee deep in a debate about a favorite character, and all of a sudden they tell you that wait - they were raped. Or abused by their ex-boyfriend. Or beaten by their parents. Or witnessed it. Or an evil boss bullied them. And the abuser/rapist/bully bares an uncanny behavioral resemblance to the character and/or relationship you happen to be debating. "This is a trigger for me" - they'll state. Or "You have to understand _____________ relationship reminds me of the abusive relationship I had with my ex. Who (raped/beat/abused) me for (period of time)." Then they will go into graphic detail. (For a recent example of Trigger Boy go to Mark Watches review of Smashed. Pretty much covers it. MARK is the poster child for "Trigger Boy". Trigger Boy/Girl perceives everything through an emotional lense and often relates it all back to their own horrible past. Note in most cases, they are happy now, and the abuse they are discussing is long over. ).
What to do? Back away slowly and do not engage. No good will come of it. You will look like a nasty bitca. And you're discussion successfully derailed. It's no longer objective, it's subjective. And it's emotional.
Although rest assured someone will engage them.
2. The Pedant or Grammar Nerd - Grammar Nerd will hijack your argument by correcting your punctuation, grammar, or syntax. Others may join in. Before long you have an entire discussion about whether your sentence was grammatically correct. Your whole argument is forgotten. And if you post again? You are self-conscious and want to have someone edit every post.
There's a lovely thread on Good Reads that demonstrates this: Effectively Slayed By Grammar Nerds on Good Reads. Read it, it's the most extreme instance of the grammar nerd that I've seen.
Possibly because the thread is about grammatical mistakes in Twilight, so that alone will attract every bored grammar nerd on the site.
How to handle? Politely thank them for correcting your grammar. And ask if they would like to be your personal beta for the duration? You can email all your posts to them so they can personally edit them first.
3. The Holier-than-Thou Culture Police: They like to attack fans for loving controversial characters, relationships, stories, and books. And will disparage anything that appears to them to be misogynistic, sexist, homophobic, racist, etc. From their perspective - all cultural items must be politically correct.
They will often state that a book is offensive to women and shouldn't be published. Or that fans of a character are sick or there's something wrong with them. Often they'll state that what disturbs them most is a fan loves an "obviously" abusive relationship or bad boyfriend and there's a risk this poor deluded soul will seek them out in reality. Another complaint? That the show or book or film is racist, misogynistic, or homophobic. They do not understand how it is possible that people see books or tv shows differently. Obviously this is racist, they will state, and if you can't see it? This is anti-femist! This is offensive to all women! If you can't see it? You are either a fool or racist/anti-feminist or misogynistic too.
How to handle? Do not engage. Back away slowly. No good will come of it.
4. The Culture Vulture: This person considers anything that is not "quality" as they define it - crap and should not be watched or read. They will mock it. They will say how it is beneath them. They will rant about how badly written it is. Filled with grammatical errors. Or it's a bad show.
How to handle? Do not engage. Back away slowly. There's no win here.
5. The Snark: This persona likes to make fun or mock things. They are quick with a one-liner. It's often sarcastic. (I unfortunately am guilty of this, although it is fun.)
And this is often used as either a defense mechanism or it's meant as a joke. There are degrees...though, the extreme version is really nasty and mean - see TWOYP thread for an example. That site attracts a lot of snarks.
How to handle: Don't take them seriously. And don't engage. Or..snark back. Make fun together, keep it light.
6. The Cheerleader - this persona loves everything. Squees about everything. Wants everyone to like them. They are chatty and nice, and often post GIPs. They also cheer on underdogs.
How to handle: Stay positive. Don't make fun of them. And trade GIPs.
7. The Devil's Advocate: They love to argue. They will literally debate anything. You have no idea what their true stance is. They often argue both.
How to handle: Don't get emotional. Stick with rational argument.
8. Emo Girl or Boy: They get emotional over everything. Take everything personally. Can't see sarcasm at all. And will often provide hugs at the end of every post. And are highly empathetic to others. They don't tend to deal with the Snark or Devil's Advocate very well. And are combustible when you put them with Emo Boy or Girl.
How to handle: Difficult. Depends on the situation and who they are up against. In most cases, they are lovable souls. But avoid snarking to them at all costs, and try to keep them away from the Devil's Advocate.
9. The Expert: This person knows EVERYTHING there is to know about the book or show. They will often litter their posts with links, exact dialogue, interview quotes, etc. They know all the writers, titles, dialogue, and can spell the names of every character. They also know everything that happened back stage. (sigh, I unfortunately have fallen under this category - go read my posts). They are detail oriented and feel at times like a human encyclopedia of trivial information. (Actually I think 95% of my flist is like this - geeks seek each other out. I love the Expert.)
How to handle? Probably best to be nice and thankful. Polite corrections only.
10. The Fact Checker: Requests back-up or proof of everything. They will nit-pick your accuracy on facts. If you misquote a writer - they'll tell you. They will ask for links to any interview you provide - as back-up. And often will provide links that show you are wrong.
How to handle? Thank them for the catch. Back away after that. Possibly even correct your post and credit them. Don't fight them - it doesn't end well. I know it is tempting.
11. The Troll: Often spams discussion threads. Breaks the rules of the thread deliberately. Is there to cause trouble.
How to handle: Summarily Ban. (Disclaimer - I've not banned any trolls on lj.)
12. The Trickster Clown: This person just goofs off, everything is a joke to them. They come up with funny posting names, and don't take anything seriously. The internet is just a big sandbox. They will play pranks and tricks. Post nonsense.
How to handle: Have fun with them. Don't take them personally. Don't react.
13. The Great Debator: Not to be confused with internet bully. They want to win the argument and often are aggressive. They don't stop until they win.
How to handle: Just say it's time we agreed to respectfully disagree. They'll back off.
14. The Internet Bully: Bullies people into seeing their point of view. Often has a bunch of groupies. Who they gather up to invade posts. Their aim is to cause a flame war. Often discussions with the internet bully will end in name-calling. They don't give up. They will harass and will stalk. Can come across self-righteous.
How to handle? Summarily ban. And ignore. Ban their friends if they bring them.
15. The Self-Appointed Defender : This is a fan of a writer, show, character, actor, actress - and they feel the need to swoop to this person's or show's aid. If you so much as frown at it - they will be all over you. Attacking you as if you attacked their baby or puppy.
How to handle? Back away slowly. Do not engage. They will bring reinforcements. Just politely state that you view it differently and that you are sorry you offended them.
Finally...on all discussion boards, blogs, etc...you will be at the mercy of The Moderator - this is the person or persons who moderate and often facilitate the discussion, they may own the site. They make the rules. The site or blog is their personality. If they don't own it, they are friends with or employees of the site. Their job is stop flame wars and keep the peace. And they have a tough job.
How to handle? Be their friend. Respect them. Keep in mind they get all the email messages. And that if a flame war breaks out - it's in their home. Don't piss them off. Don't bully them or spoil them. If you post long posts - thank them and ask if it is okay. They have the power to ban or boot your ass off the forum if you don't behave.
Disclaimer: This is purely based on my own experiences on the net. Mileage may vary. And I've seen these personas on every fan discussion board or forum on the net. The key I've found to surviving an internet discussion is politeness, backing away or leaving when you get angry and never posting in anger, staying away from people who make you crazy or angry.
If you get into a heated discussion and you realize it's going to derail...politely state it is time we agree to disagree. Then leave.
With my brother...whenever we argue, I often think, damn, I need the last word. It's stupid. I know. Having the last word doesn't mean you won. It may just mean the other person got tired of arguing with you or bored of the discussion.
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no subject
Date: 2012-07-21 03:23 pm (UTC)I found the idea that Spike was abusing Buffy in that particular episode totally off the wall. But the response of not just Mark, but the mods and some other posters was nothing short of abusive. And they were abusing real people, not characters on a TV show.
After I read that he posted a sort of apology I went and looked at it. That was not an apology. That was just more self-justification. I had absolutely no interest in reading his review for that episode. The site gives me such a bad feeling now I don't think I would ever enjoy it again.
It's unfortunate that all of the Spuffy and Spike fans have been chased off, because there will be no one to offer a more reasonable point of view about anything. This has happened to so many fan sites and unfortunately that's why nobody gets how popular Spike and Spuffy are (like Allie until recently).
Elisi did a good job of reasonably defending but honestly why would any Spuffy want to subject themselves to that site? They shouldn't. It's not healthy.
no subject
Date: 2012-07-21 04:25 pm (UTC)http://www.journalfen.net/community/wank_report/1488.html?thread=8540880#t8540880
And apparently his behavior has alienated a lot of people who don't even like Spuffy or Spike. I knew he was going to run into problems after I did my character polls - 54% of 110 were reading Mark Watches, of that percentage, 90% were unabashed Spike and Spuffy fans participating in discussions and had been for quite some time.
Truth is? Mark's behavior isn't an isolated case. I've seen similar outbursts and behavior on Good Reads regarding 50 Shades of Grey and the sexual relationship in that novel. For some reason or other, people have problems with female sexual fantasy...particularly if it doesn't fit in their box. The post I wrote above was mostly inspired by my interactions on Good Reads lately...because LJ and Mark Watches and other related sites are blocked at work. At lunch, I entertain myself with Good Reads.
And discovered yep, these people really do exist everywhere. The difference between Good Reads or even Buffyforums and Mark Watches - is that the moderator or owner of the site is rational and objective. They aren't emotionally invested, so aren't attacking people and know when to boot people out or slap them. The best sites to visit are one's moderated by people who are more rational/analytical and less emotional, who stay more or less objective.
My main issue with MARK and it's one I've been having for some time now, is I don't trust anything he says. I strongly believe the whole site is an act or scam. He's a marketing guy who read a book on how to write a web site that brings in money and that's his product. There's far too many contradictions and inconsistencies. Fandom Wank thread picks up on all of them. The boy states that he has a degree in Marketing in one post, in another he says he didn't graduate from college and couldn't afford it.
In another post he says, he had to support himself at the age of 16 and was broke. While in another he went to prom and his mother wouldn't let him watch tv or listen to records. Yet his favorite show was The X-Files as a teen and his sister was watching Buffy?
Alrighty then.
no subject
Date: 2012-07-21 09:32 pm (UTC)Thank you. And... I've had enough (as you probably saw from my LJ). He's been more or less polite when dealing with me, but that has obviously just been luck or goodness knows what. And it's exhausting talking to people who constantly try to derail you and misinterpret what you say. Life's too short - esp as RL is eating me alive already.
It's unfortunate that all of the Spuffy and Spike fans have been chased off, because there will be no one to offer a more reasonable point of view about anything. This has happened to so many fan sites and unfortunately that's why nobody gets how popular Spike and Spuffy are (like Allie until recently).
Mmm. Very true. But at least Mark will know that he's only got himself to blame. Particularly as I told him how marginalised that part of fandom had always been, and how people now very clearly interpreted his actions as 'This is another place that's not safe for us'. (Which is nicely ironic considering how he's such a stickler for PC language & behaviour, as he wants his site to be 'safe' for everyone. Although I let that part be inferred - I presumed he's intelligent enough to get the message...)
no subject
Date: 2012-07-21 10:20 pm (UTC)I think he's calmed down a bit. And the mods are being more stringent from what I saw in the comments threads before I wrote my post last night. I'd gone to read the Wrecked review (which is relatively tame actually in comparison to the Smashed one) and glanced through the comments and discovered a conversation about a huge kerfuffle and how they were dealing with it.
He apparently got taken to task by non-Spuffy and somewhat respectable and sane fans for bullying behavior on his site as well as elsewhere.
There's a lot of people who aren't Spuffy fans who have left because of his behavior.
no subject
Date: 2012-07-21 10:30 pm (UTC)And I'm not surprised that people are leaving - it was *ugly*, and Buffy fans have long memories. Feeling like it's 2001 again is *not* a good thing.
By the way is journalfen down, or is it my computer that won't open the link you posted elsewhere? ::pokes it::
no subject
Date: 2012-07-21 10:57 pm (UTC)And I'm not surprised that people are leaving - it was *ugly*, and Buffy fans have long memories. Feeling like it's 2001 again is *not* a good thing.
That was the impression I got from flameraven who hasn't seen S6 of Buffy and isn't a fan, and about as impartial as one can possibly get. They told me that Mark's behavior and mods behavior was unconscionable. (Her post is above yours in this thread, several up.) So I trust flame's take. She has no agenda. And she actually read both sides - the mods and the interactions.
Stating that the Spuffy fans were actually nice and polite. Mark and his groupies were the ones who were out of line, blatantly so. And it derailed from there.
Sigh. Mark really does remind me of a lot of similar personalities I've met in online forums. Very self-absorbed, holier-than-thou, self-righteous, and manipulative. For some reason fame - even marginal fame - brings out the worst in people. He's not the first nor will he be the last BFN who has reacted badly on his blog.
I can't respect Mark. His posts are manipulative and I agree with the guy on journalfen who states:
Thank goodness someone else has said this. Increasingly while reading his posts I've been imagining it as the start of a fandom_wank entry as he seems to have had the most tragic life ever... he's been abused at home, abused by a boyfriend, abused by a roommate, stalked, been an alcoholic, was simultaneously reviled and popular in high school, has been homeless, was adopted, has been about three different religions, had a despicable/wonderful family and has been the subject of homophobia, racism and other bigotry. And that's just the stuff I remember off the top of my head.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who picked up on it. Of course I naturally pick up on things like that - I see patterns or repetitions.
no subject
Date: 2012-07-22 01:55 pm (UTC)The discussion back then was about Buffy's sexuality and whether a woman should be shown taking the initiative. And about how depicting sex on a teen show in that manner had never been done before.
Here's the link from TWOPY:
http://www.televisionwithoutpity.com/show/buffy_the_vampire_slayer/smashed.php?page=14
Rape wasn't mentioned in discussions until Gone or Dead Things.
no subject
Date: 2012-07-22 02:09 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-07-22 02:14 pm (UTC)I don't care enough to do it. Actually as a rule, I've stayed away from his comments threads. Now, I think I will most likely stop reading him.
I think interacting just makes it worse. You can't change the mind of the holier-than-thou culture police.
My original advice remains...back away slowly.
no subject
Date: 2012-07-22 02:24 pm (UTC)Now, I think I will most likely stop reading him.
Same here. Might check in to see how he copes with Dead Things though - he'll be hard pressed not to see the Buffy As Abuser angle...
My original advice remains...back away slowly.
Yup. Although I am now TERRIBLY tempted to get a screencap from Smashed and adding this caption: "I could ride you at a gallop until your legs buckled and your eyes rolled up. I've got muscles you've never even dreamed of. I could squeeze you until you pop like warm champagne and you'd beg me to hurt you just a little bit more."
And then add every instance of Buffy admitting that she used Spike in rot-13. (I've come up with 4 so far: Dead Things, AYW, CWDP and Never Leave Me.)
I'm an 'Expert'. I find it hard to walk away from these things... (Even though I know it's useless to engage.)