Feast of Crows..."Who is Pate?"- And a sort of pseudo review/meta

[shadowkat]

So, I finally finished George RR Martin's Feast of Crows and I've got a question for anyone who has read and finished this book.

Who is Pate? Samwell Tarly meets Pate or Alleghris/The Spinx in the final chapter.
And yes it neatly echoes the first chapter or bookends it.

But the reason for my question is there are three Pates.

1. Pate - who dies in the first chapter
2. Pate - Tommen's whipping boy and friend at Kings Landing, who Queen Cersei punnishes her son by making him whip, if he doesn't whip him, Qyburn will remove his tongue.
3. Pate/Alleghris who Sam meets in the final chapter and is an apprentice level master and confident to the Mage. Figured it out thanks to the comments. This is why you shouldn't skim these books, you confuse yourself. Pate - is the novice at the beginning of the book, Alleras is an apprentice. Both appear at beginning and end.

Is he the same person? Or something else? No not the same person. Martin just likes to us this name because...in Medieval Literature Spotted Pate was a lucky character. (No one is lucky in Martin's books.)

My theory? Allegris (ETA: got him confused with the alchemist Jacq) kills the first Pate (number #1) and takes his form, and becomes an apprentice at the Maesters. Pate -#2 is a completely different Pate and not associated with 1 and 3 at all. While 3 took 1's place. Jaq took Pate the novice at the Citadel's place. (Again skimming these things can confuse you.)

Sam states that there is something off about the Sphinx/Pate/Allerghis Pate, which he doesn't quite trust. Sam is rather intuitive about people. [ETA: He's also not sure about the Sphinx.)

Anyhow? Thoughts? [ETA: See comments.]

That's the only plot thread that lost me. [ETA: Due to spotty memory, skimming, and trying to read it on a train ride home after a tough day at work.] I figured out the Dorn thread, apparently Myrcella almost got killed through Arienne's attempt to grab power through her. Can't say I blame Arienne.

What was interesting about the book was how all the strands except for maybe four were about going after Daenerys and her dragons in the lands of the sun. That Dany was their last hope or their means of revenge or power. The four that did not concern Dany or were oblvious were Jamie, Brienne, Alyanne, and Ayra. Ceresi did but didn't know it - Dany's the Queen that will be Cersei's undoing, not Margaery. That much is clear. And to a degree apt. I also am beginning to think Jamie is the little brother that the old fortune teller forsaw, not Tyrion. Jamie is most likely Cersei's valonquar. Makes perfect sense. Since Jamie is clearly headed towards a collision with Zombie!Catelynne aka Lady Stoneheart. He'll most likely become one of her flock as a means of redeeming himself. And she'll probably ask him to kill Cersei. I don't see any reason for Tyrion to do it at this point.
But Jamie? Definitely. Jamie's ill-placed devotion and love for Cersei nearly has destroyed him. It also has an ironic feel of justice to it - which George RR likes.

There's irony in both Ceresi and Littlefinger's plotting because both are oblivious to Jon Snow and Daenerys and what lies behind those two. Jon and his wolf and the wights of the north. Daeny and her dragons. There's equally irony in Cersei's journey...since she too is oblvious to things outside of King's Landing. What GRR does quite well is depict how clueless human beings are to things outside of their perception. We think we know it all, but all we can see is two inches around us. We have no idea what is coming. We can't see far enough. We can't see the forest. We can only see the bark and ferns and rock. Martin demonstrates this so well. It's why I love him - his ability to show that.

Ceresi has completely misunderstood the prophecy/fortune told to her. So she screws up royally. You could say she's stupid. But keep in mind she doesn't know what we do. She makes decisions based on what she knows. And she trusts no one - so there is no one to guide her. Unlike Tyrion who perhaps was too trusting, Cersei is paranoid, and with good reason. As a result, she makes a series of dumb mistakes. That and she is poorly educated, a fault of her father and mother, who saw women as breeding tools and marketable items.
Tywin saw his children as way to power and prestige. He cared more about how others viewed him and his family then he did about his family - his vanity and his pride are his fatal flaws and why he dies in such an ironic manner. He feared being laughed at, so his death was ludicrous. He wanted a son who was a great knight and a daughter who was a Queen, and got both, but at tremendous cost and not quite in the way he intended. He lost them, and all that was important in the process.

I almost feel sorry for the Lannisters. Their tale is a tragic one, that reminds me a bit of Macbeth and Richard the III. They imploded. The Starks tale is equally tragic and for similar reasons - they too implode, due to to pride and vanity. Both families are so myopic, they can't see the forest for the trees. You can really parallel both families and see through them what Martin is saying...how pride cometh before the fall. Stark means well, but so did Tywin Lannister. Are Eddard Stark and Tywin Lannister really all that different? Are Rob and Jamie? Or Catelynn and Cersei? Or for that matter, Jon Snow and Tyrion? There's a weird fun house mirror effect going on here.

I admittedly am not quite shipping any of the characters at this point. One has to stop shipping with GRR Martin, as a matter of self-preservation. The only characters I'm sort of shipping right now are Ayra, Jon, Tyrion, Dany, Sam/Gilly, and Aysha. I figure they have a sporting chance. I gave up on Jamie and Brienne finally. Both are obviously doomed to Lady Catelynn's vengeful heart. Never been a fan of Catelynn (self-righteous bitch who reminds me a great deal of Cersei actually - can we say Mom's from hell? Yes, we can.), so it's not a fun experience for me. But it does work story and plot wise as well as character wise. Martin has laid the ground work.

Regarding Sansa/Alayne and LittleFinger...not sure what to make of this, except that Littlefinger/Lord Petyr Balish is making some of the same dumb mistakes that Cersei did because he doesn't know as much as he thinks. He knows nothing about what lies beyond the wall and is so self-absorbed and convinced of his own brilliance, that he is equally oblivious to what is happening with Dany in the world beyond Westeros. He just sees Kings Landing, as does Cersei. Catelynn and Eddard were equally somewhat myopic. Jamie to give him some credit is seeing beyond that - he realizes Winter is coming and they have no food supplies in Kings Landing or elsewhere and no time to get them, and will most likely die during the Winter, not from the War but starvation. Both Cersei and Littlefinger are so obsessed with power, neither quite see the other problems. Brienne equally sees the problems ahead and comments on them, as does Samwell. And Alayne who notes how cold the castle is at the Trident. And that they can't possibly stay there much longer.

If I were Alayne, I'd jump at the marriage possibility with Harry the Heir...just to get away from creepy Littlefinger for a bit. Maybe I could convince him to kill Little Finger for me. But it's hard to tell how smart Sansa/Alayne is. Jamie/Brienne will never find her or Ayra either. That's a hopeless cause. It's painful watching them try. And aggravating watching Zombie!Catelynne blame them for it. Hon, you doomed your kids the moment you went after Tyrion on a wild goose chase. You and Eddard Stark were doomed by your own self-righteous vanity. The problem, GRR Martin demonstrates quite aptly here, with militant social justice is what if you are wrong? And the world it's not neat and tidy. You are only seeing a small piece of the picture. And completely blind to the consequences of your own actions. Eddard and Catelynn destroyed their families and themselves..with their stupid quest for misplaced justice. The PC crowd probably winced at this message.

It's a fascinating novel. But I think I missed bits here and there, because it is densely written and to a degree over-written. There's too much. One gets lost. It's like trying to enter an over-grown hedge grove. These books required trimming. Too many characters. Too many perspectives. I kept getting a bit lost. I felt at times like I was read four epic fantasies at the same time.

So anywho...anyone know what the deal with Pate is?

Comments

[embers-log.livejournal.com]

"You and Eddard Stark were doomed by your own self-righteous vanity."
Oh I REALLY agree, they both have endangered their children with their blind belief that they are right and therefore they will win out. I feel sorry for the kids, but Ned and Catelynn got what they deserved (I have no sympathy for them).

I found that the website Westeros was full of interesting insights (this is a site that started ages ago w/people who were following the first books published) and GRRM goes there sometimes because he finds those fans have paid close attention to details.

Here is a Westeros page on all the characters named Pate: http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Pate
It is interesting that GRRM has repeated used the name... the name almost becomes like the red shirt on Star Trek (ie labeled as cannon fodder).

I think I agree (debating online at Westeros site) that it was Jaqen H'ghar masquerading as the Alchemist who kills Pate at the Citadel and takes his place... so Samwell is distrustful of Pate who is actually (probably?) Jagen H'ghar working for a specific end that isn't clear to me (I mean clearly he wanted the key but normally the faceless ones are assassins....).

Rest assured that none of that is a spoiler for Dances with Dragons. It is just speculation based on Feast for Crows (and earlier books). I really am loving this series!

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Oh I REALLY agree, they both have endangered their children with their blind belief that they are right and therefore they will win out. I feel sorry for the kids, but Ned and Catelynn got what they deserved (I have no sympathy for them).

Definitely - the bad parenting of the year award is a tie between the Lannisters and the Starks. Equally bad, but in vastly different ways. And their children pay the price.

Robb Stark and Joffrey - die horribly playing King (and are both killed by sworn bannermen or allies to their parents, which their parents made bargains with. Rob by the Freys, for breaking the bargain Catelynn negotiated. His death drives Catelynn mad and results in her death. And Joffrey by the Queen of Hearts to protect her daughter and make her Queen, resulting in Cersei going mad and in the process destroying the Queen Hearts family, just as Catelynn destroys the Freys.)

Myrcella and Sansa both become innocent pawns of other's revenge/power schemes

Tommen and Jon both find themselves in dangerous leadership roles neither desired or are prepared for.

I think I agree (debating online at Westeros site) that it was Jaqen H'ghar masquerading as the Alchemist who kills Pate at the Citadel and takes his place... so Samwell is distrustful of Pate who is actually (probably?) Jagen H'ghar working for a specific end that isn't clear to me (I mean clearly he wanted the key but normally the faceless ones are assassins....).

I had to re-read the first chapter of Feast of Crows, to remember what happened. I read it in August of 2011, so only had a vague memory of it.
I'd forgotten Jaq or Alleris was one of the faceless assassins. But did vaguely remember that he killed a guy named Pate. The problem was...Pate's name is also listed in the back of the book as Tommen's whipping boy and
appears in those chapters. (Honestly, the writer can't come up with a new name to distinguish characters? Particularly when he has so many of them you need a rolledex to keep track?)

That links in well with the faceless assassins that Arya is currently amongst. And Sam's journey into their midst and out again and apparently in again.

[sophist.livejournal.com]

The names are a bit confusing, but the Pate who was killed was pretty much a throw-away character. I'm convinced that Jaqen is the one who killed him and that Jaqen has now assumed the identity of Pate. For what purpose, nobody knows.

Alleras the Sphinx is a pseudonym for a character who's mentioned several times but never seen. Want a hint?

I agree that Ned and Tywin both destroyed their respective families, but I'd still prefer Ned. He had his flaws, but he never would have authorized something like the Red Wedding.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I'm not entirely sure Tywin did authorize the Red Wedding. But it's admittedly been a while since I read Storm of Swords. Jamie doesn't seem to believe he did, but Jamie's not entirely a reliable narrator.

At any rate, you're correct, Ned would never have been quite that ruthless (nor is Jamie for that matter). Although I think The Red Wedding took quite a few people by surprise. The Frey's went way way over board for a marriage slight. They sort of deserve the wrath of Lady Stoneheart - she's in many respects their creation. Serve them right if she slaughtered the entire clan. [That said, moral preferences aside, Tywin's a better written and far more interesting character than Ned. Martin doesn't seem to know what to do with stalwart and true.]

Alleras the Sphinx? Is it revealed in Dance of Dragons?...if so, would rather not be spoiled. (I have a tendency to read ahead and spoil myself, so don't need help. LOL!) If it's not revealed? go ahead.

[sophist.livejournal.com]

I'm convinced from several factors that Tywin did authorize the Red Wedding. Obviously the Freys bear most of the blame (and most deserve to die), but Tywin has his share. And you'll agree with me by the end of the next book. :)

As for Alleras, no it isn't revealed. However, her name spelled backwards is Sallera, which is the name of one of the Sand Snakes. We never see Sallera, but she's mentioned a few times. It's likely that Alleras is her, though we don't know why she's in Oldtown.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I thought Alleras was male?

[sophist.livejournal.com]

That's strongly suggested by the dialogue of the other characters, but the description of Alleras emphasizes how slim "he" is and other aspects also suggest a female passing as a man. Then there's the name situation, so most readers think Alleras = Sallera Sand.

You can get the details at FAQ 6.2.11 at http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/FAQ/

[sophist.livejournal.com]

Oh, and do be very careful on that link. There are major spoilers there, which is why I gave you the exact number. Don't even read the questions for the others.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

You've managed to prove my point about the dangers of skimming. I skimmed and also forgot the whole bit about the Sand Snakes shown through the Prince of Dorn and his Guard's pov. So missed Salleras Sand.
They blurred together.

Martin has this nasty habit of hiding bits of necessary information and vital clues in the midst of rambling and seemingly meaningless prose and chatter. So you hit a big plot point and think, wait, what did I miss?
For example? I skimmed part of the Sam chapter, and got confused on Alleras and Pate, I thought they were one and same, not two separate people. And Pate sounded familiar - but I thought Tommen, wait, maybe it was the first chapter...and went back.

You really can't skim those books.

[sophist.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I made the same mistake. On first read I skimmed. On second read I caught more. But I didn't really get all the little tricks he pulled until I started reading the Westeros site.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

The Pate the Pig Boy trick is a clever one. He begins and ends the book with this character, but he doesn't at the same time. It's the same name, just not the same character.

It's a series of books that almost requires that you read cliff-notes or get on discussion threads to figure certain bits and pieces out. I can see why it has an active and voracious fandom.

[reginaspina.livejournal.com]

Jamie doesn't seem to believe he did, but Jamie's not entirely a reliable narrator.

Jaime's also imprisoned during the entire planning of the Red Wedding (and he's far, far more direct about his killing anyway.) The only reason Roose Bolton says "Jaime Lannister sends his regards" as he kills Robb is to drive the metaphorical knife in a little farther (since the Karstarks who are busy killing Robb's men at the time were alienated from Robb's cause because Robb's mother released Jaime from captivity, causing Lord Karstark to murder innocent Lannister hostages, which in turn led Robb to execute Lord Karstark, which made the Karstarks switch sides. Phew! Complicated!!)

There's a pretty clear indication that the Red Wedding goes waaay back in Clash of Kings - when Arya is in Harrenhal, Roose Bolton and the Freys who are with him get wind of Robb's marriage to Jeyne Westerlings, and Roose sends the loyal Northern lords to die in a battle that is meaningless. I'm pretty sure that's when he marries Walder Frey's daughter and he, Frey and Tywin cook up the Red Wedding together.

In his last scene in Clash of Kings (when he gives Arya the coin) The Character Formerly Known as Jaquen transforms into someone who is described almost identically to the alchemist who kills Pate in the prologue of Feast. I take this to mean that Jaquen wasn't his real face either - he's a Faceless Man who kills people and takes on their identities for his own reasons. (As for the Pate usage, I actually think it's more "realistic" for multiple people to have the same name - as in real life - than for no one to ever be named the same thing as often happens in fantasy novels!)

I actually do like Catelyn a lot - although she made a few questionable calls (like capturing Tyrion) most of her advice to Robb was pretty good - he just ignored all of it. And she certainly suffered so disproportionately to what she had done (the belief that all her children are dead is what accompanied her death!) that I can't help but feel sorry for her. Lady Stoneheart is a quite different story though; I don't think Stoneheart is on a quest for justice - that's pretty clear from the fact that she completely ignores what Brienne does for the kids at the inn (and from the fact that she's clearly willing to kill anyone who's ever worn Lannister or Frey colors.) Stoneheart seeks vengeance, and that's what Thoros of Myr laments, that under Beric's leadership, the Brotherhood without Banners WAS more concerned with justice, and now they've given themselves up to much more dark and terrible impulses. From something Beric once said, the animating impulse for these essentially animated corpses is often whatever their last thoughts were when they were human: Catelyn's were clearly vengeance (she kills Jinglebells after she sees Robb butchered before her), and I'm sure being stripped naked and lying in the river for three days before they fished her out probably didn't improve her undead temperament either.

Naming things

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

As for the Pate usage, I actually think it's more "realistic" for multiple people to have the same name - as in real life - than for no one to ever be named the same thing as often happens in fantasy novels!

True. There's four Barbara's at my work place. Three Cherly's. And Two Lloyd's - in this case one uses it as a last name and one as a first, so it's a bit easier to keep track of. Then there's over 450 people on facebook, Good Reads, and on the internet who have my first, middle, and last name - one of which lives in Wales and has a PH.d in Folklore, I've decided she's my alternate universe personality. At least five who use versions of shadowkat. One of which writes really X-rated fanfic. Another is a player in a role playing game - they are doing pretty well too. Bloody annoying if you ask me. But people are ridiculously unoriginal when it comes to naming things.

At any rate it makes for a really confusing read. Not that it's not confusing in life, mind you. Just this week - I had to ask Barbara No #1 if the Cheryl she was talking about was the tall one or the short one. Granted it would help if I could remember their last names...

In books however, you do not have to be realistic (well at least the fictional ones). It's a bit like how you write dialogue. While clearly no one speaks in real life the way fictional dialogue is written unless they lived a 100 years ago, or non-fictional dialogue for that matter. Actually, oddly, fictional dialogue recreates how people actually speak more than non-fiction - everyone speaks in nonfiction books and journal articles like fussy English professors who went to Oxford or Harvard.

It's written that way so you can understand it or so I've been told. Writing it "realistically" tends to be hard to understand and a bit on the slow side. (Unless it's academic speak - aka fussy English Professors then, well, I really have no idea why academics feel the need to write like that. But I'm certain there's a good explanation.)

But back to George RR Martin. It would be one thing if George RR Martin was writing a tv series like say Buffy...where you have multiple people with the name "William", because hello, different actors playing him - so we get the visuals. Also they all go by different versions of the name: William, Liam, Billy, Willy, and some even change their name to Angel and Spike. But in Martin's novel we have over 2000 characters... You sort of need a memory like a rollerdex to keep track of them all and now, he's suddenly gotten into the name Pate. Not sure why. He also seems to like names that begin with A - Aysha, Arrya, Arienne, Alayne.

The whole naming bit is admittedly a silly and somewhat minor annoyance, but there it is. ;-)

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the bit on Jaquar...I thought he was the one who gave Ayra the coin and told her to go to the Faceless Men. But could not remember. Which makes the Sam bit all the more ironic. The Ayra/Sam stories sort of collide with each other. Re-read Chapter One of Feast today, and yes, Jacquar appears to have killed Pate the Pig Boy, which means he took his place, since he calls himself Pate the Pig Boy when Sam requests his name. So the story ends and begins with Pate the Pig Boy. (Who dies in the creepiest manner imaginable - he just melts like water.)

Agree on Catelynne. Thought much the same thing...Lady Stoneheart isn't in it for Justice (like Beric Dondarrion was), she's in it for vengeance - as are the men around her. They've become carrion feeders or vultures.

I'd forgotten about Roose Bolton. He's the one who causes the Red Wedding to happen. A piece of work is Bolton. And possibly the creepiest character in the books. But was he in the series? He's in the book Clash, but I can't remember him in the tv show for some reason - I think they had Tywin take his place in those scenes with Ayra? Which explains why I forgot about him.
Tywin sets up the bargain with Roose - get me the Freys and stop Rob, and I'll give you Winterfell, Roose tricks Rob and Catelynn and Arya into thinking he's for them. And flips things.

Can't say I blame Catelynn for going nuts after the Red Wedding. Still not a fan of the character - but that's a personal thing. Self-righteous/holier than thou characters tend to annoy me. Regardless of what book they appear in. They annoy me in life too. So I'm consistent in that regard. ;-)

While I'd hardly give Catelynn any Mom of the year awards, she is admittedly better than every other parent in the series. The Prince of Dorn just locks everyone up. His brother gave his daughters weapons and turned them into fighters ( a much more pragmatic approach). Cersei seems to be somewhere between the Princes of Dorn - she either locks hers up or turns them into sadistic creeps by making them torture people for punishment. Granted its not like she had a good role model - her father apparently had a similar attitude in regards to child raising, except he was a bit more direct in regards to the torture. Robert Barratheon...seems to ignore his entirely.
Lysa, is the exact opposite, she smothers. The Freys - create the human version of hyenas...or weasels, they even look and sound like weasels.
Setting them up against each other at the get-go.

So while Catelynne is a bit on the neglectful side, as is Ned for that matter, neither are as bad as the above.

Do have one question though? Who is Allegras? I got that character confused with the two Pate's. I'm guessing he/she is a separate character. Mephistophles thinks he/she is one of the Sand Snakes, which would make sense.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the link - it cleared it all up, and explains why the writer made the choice to turn PATE into the equivalent of the red-shirt character who gets killed all the time.

[embers-log.livejournal.com]

This is one of the things I love about GRRM: it is worth while to research into various questions because he actually means things.... he has really created a complicated complete world with a lot more meaning than the real world would ever have! LOL

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

It's worth noting that he is commenting on the real world. He's a medievalist (I can't remember the name for them) and has done extensive research into the period and readings.

But I do like the fact that he questions himself and his characters. There's a humility and humbleness to the writer that charms me. He doesn't worship himself and doesn't really want to be worshipped, he's similar to Neil Gaiman in that respect. He wants to interact with his readers, not be worshipped by them. I can respect that.