Once Upon a Time - tonight's episode "The Queen is Dead"

[shadowkat]

Frustrating but good episode. The good news, I misread the spoiler I was worried about, the bad news - another twist happened that aggravated me and made me want to kick a certain character.



* Alright, Neal, how big of an ass are you? Seriously, if I was Emma - I'd break the news to his fiance - that Neal not only abandoned Emma when she was 18, so that she took the rap, but also left her pregnant.

And Henry is blaming Emma and not kicking Neal? Ack.

This twist was not appreciated. Also how much you want to bet Neal/Baelfire is Peter Pan?
The show is sort of telegraphing it now - the only one who can fly Hook's ship besides Hook according to the tale is Peter Pan. And his reaction to Hook screams Peter Pan.

Did like the explanation which I already came up with - that he had to have gone to Neverland first or he'd be about 100 years old. As he puts it, if this was my first stop I'd be a hundred years old, I stopped over somewhere else first.

* I actually agree with Snow at this point, kill Cora. Although that won't help. Honestly Regina are you a complete idiot? How did you feel when Cora killed Daniel? Do you really think Henry will forgive you and if you lie to him about it, do you think he'll forgive you for that? And not find out? Seriously, this kid has an uncanny way of sniffing out lies and he does not deal at all with them. Heck, Henry can't handle Emma's fib about Neal - and that's relatively minor in comparison to the whoppers you are going to spin. He's still holding a grudge on that one. If you attempt to kill his entire biological family...you might not like the results.

* Was worried that Snow's mom was related to Cora, rather relieved to discover that no, Cora just plotted on killing her and succeeded.

* Regina, I thought you were over the whole heart ripping out bit. And you are going to have stop ripping people's hearts out to be considered redeemable or the least bit good. Sorry, Snow's right...Good Queen's don't go around ripping out hearts and cursing folks to get a happy. Evil Queen's do that. How deep in denial are you? Stop lying to yourself hon and you might have a chance with Henry.

Right now you're behind both Hook and Rumplestilskin on the whole redemption arc bit.
You'd have thought they had made her just slightly nicer. To be fair she does question her mother's actions a bit - but still only in regards to herself. She has got to be the most self-absorbed and self-centered character on the series, with almost no self-awareness. Hon? Your unhappiness is all your own fault - not Snow's. Yours. And Mamma's. If you want to kick the person responsible, kick Mamma. (I don't need her to be redeemed, just less dumb - right now she's reminding me a bit of Elmer Fudd.)

Comments

[masqthephlsphr.livejournal.com]

I was gaping at Regina through most of this ep, but towards the end I started thinking, this is her falling back before she gets better at the end of the season. Right?? Don't want her B&W, in a good way or bad way, but *somebody's* got to be the bad guy on a show like this, and if both Regina and Rumple are redeemed, that would get dull. But shades of gray would be nice.

Didn't like how Rumple is suddenly so cruel to Henry. I suppose it makes sense, though, he hadn't put all the pieces of the future together until now, and now he realizes Henry is his doom. *And* his grandson, Bae's son. He knows if he hurt Henry, he'd lose Baelfire forever. And I think he honestly feared Henry would interfere with him getting back to Storybrooke and magic, and that's how he would doom Rumple.

As for Henry+Emma, Henry has lived in a black-and-white Fairytale world up until now. He is always with the "Good always wins and there's always a happy ending" world-view. Emma burst that bubble--showed him his mother and all heroes are fallible/human--so her small white lie had a much bigger impact on Henry than it warranted, and it's going to take him a while to sort that out. He is a kid, after all. You gotta cut him some slack. OTOH, there were moments in the episode where Henry treated her like he always does, so that was reassuring.

And of course since they started hinting that Neal would go to Storybrooke and Neal and Henry were bonding, and Rumple was teasing Emma about wanting to get back together with Neal, Naturally, they had to add an obstacle in the form of a fiancee for Neal. Which was so out of the blue, she's either a nobody walk on-walk off part, OR she's Wendy or she's Ariel the mermaid or some other magical!world character who will actually stick around and interfere in Henry's parents reuniting.

Which actually gives me hope they might get Neal and Emma back together eventually. I figured they might just leave him in Manhattan and we'd only hear from him every blue moon when Henry went down for a visit. So him visiting Storybrooke to help his father and there being a romantic obstacle means there will be Moar Baelfire. Which is, like, yay.

Sometimes I want to smack kid!Snow.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

but towards the end I started thinking, this is her falling back before she gets better at the end of the season. Right?? Don't want her B&W, in a good way or bad way, but *somebody's* got to be the bad guy on a show like this, and if both Regina and Rumple are redeemed,

Well, there's a little bit of hope in the fact that at the end of the episode she questions her mother. Wondering what her mother's real agenda is and whether it aligns with hers.

But...some of it felt abrupt. She goes from trying to change for Henry's sake and saving Emma/Snow (against Rumple's advice) because Henry clearly won't forgive her otherwise - to suddenly pulling out heart's again and trying to kill snow - why exactly? Because Mamma promised. And Emma didn't let Henry see her - because she thought Regina killed Dr. Hopper? So..how exactly is killing poor dear Johanna going to make that situation better???

Sigh. Is it just me or are the Snow White centric episodes always a bit off? Rumple centric episodes are great. Snow White ones...not so much.

Didn't like how Rumple is suddenly so cruel to Henry.

That seemed a bit abrupt too, and stupid. After all he is relying on Henry's parents to save his life. Being nasty to Henry isn't going to make that happen. The clever approach would be to be nice to him, and slide the dagger in latter.

But he was admittedly in pain...and dying, so I guess it just came out?
If I was Henry - I'd be leery of Rumplestilskin. Doesn't he read that book he's carting about with him?

At any rate - I don't think Rumple's close to redemption, selenak is right about that - everything Rumple does is to get Bae back. He really is no different than Regina, he wants power and he wants his son. They are in some respects the mirrors to Bae and Emma.

He's just cleverer than Regina, well in most cases. Also a lot older apparently. How old is he? 140?

As for Henry+Emma, Henry has lived in a black-and-white Fairytale world up until now. He is always with the "Good always wins and there's always a happy ending" world-view. Emma burst that bubble--showed him his mother and all heroes are fallible/human--so her small white lie had a much bigger impact on Henry than it warranted, and it's going to take him a while to sort that out.

True. Also it's probably safe to assume that Henry doesn't know what Neal/Bae did to Emma. Just a weird vague over-view.

He's going to love the fact that his Dad is Peter Pan...though. What little boy wouldn't? Cool, my Dad is Peter Pan! Poor Emma.

Naturally, they had to add an obstacle in the form of a fiancee for Neal.

True. Yes, I fear I'm becoming a batshit crazy Neal/Emma shipper. ;-)
Damn you Michael Raymond-James for being so lovably cute, and I admittedly identify a bit with Emma - more than I did with Buffy.

You are right, it was too easy. We need obstacles. It's only the middle of the second season after-all.

Which was so out of the blue, she's either a nobody walk on-walk off part, OR she's Wendy or she's Ariel the mermaid or some other magical!world character who will actually stick around and interfere in Henry's parents reuniting.

I know, right? It pops up out of nowhere. I don't think she can be a FTL character - mainly because he stated to Emma - he avoided anyone with magic when he came here. Nor is she Wendy, unless he reconnected with Wendy after he met Emma. Possibly Tinkerbell - although unlikely. No most likely nobody/human character - although I sort of hope not.

So him visiting Storybrooke to help his father and there being a romantic obstacle means there will be Moar Baelfire. Which is, like, yay.

Agreed. Moar Baelfire, please. I was sort of hoping to see him fight for Emma's love not the other way around. Although that could still But who? Not Hook - sure there's chemistry, but Emma doesn't trust Hook. Now if they found a way to bring back that dead Sheriff..maybe.


Sometimes I want to smack kid!Snow.

Right there with you. I think it's the actress. Although I also wanted to smack Henry. (Good thing I'm not a parent, right? LOL!)

[masqthephlsphr.livejournal.com]

I already figured Rumple and Baelfire lived at least one or two centuries before the time of Regina/Snow/Charming. It goes back to a comment by Granny that when she was young, her brothers were "veterans of the 2nd Ogre's War." And I am assuming Rumple/Bae were drafted into the 1st Ogre's War. Which puts it at at least a century, and given Neal's comment last night, probably more like two centuries. The Dark One is immortal, and Baelfire lived in Neverland for a while.

I think we're supposed to believe Regina has Big Time Mommy Issues, hence the almost complete 180. Also, I think magic is supposed to be, not *inherently* corrupting, but difficult to resist getting corrupted by. Sort of like on Merlin.

The "Cool, my dad is Peter Pan" thing comes straight out of the movie Hook. So I hope they put a fresh spin on it. Only Baelfire/Neal doesn't seem to be the Peter Pan type to me. Young Baelfire was so earnest and anti-magic, Neal is so mundane (so far) and his happy-go-lucky side seems to be a front.

It's possible Neal meant he would have avoided Emma if he'd known she was the Savior meant to break his father's spell, as opposed to Any Random FTL/Neverland Girl.

I think in my case with kid!Snow, it's the actress. Because I like adult!Snow just fine. And I am completely enamored with Henry, so I don't want to smack him. I *do* want his father to tell him to cut his mother a break, though.

[masqthephlsphr.livejournal.com]

Yes, I fear I'm becoming a batshit crazy Neal/Emma shipper. ;-)

We've seen them together in three episodes total and we're already cranking out the 'shipper delusions. Yay!

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Sigh, so true. LOL!

Now watch those silly writers crush us. (I've watched one too many Whedon series apparently, I no longer trust television writers with my ships. But I refuse to give in to spoilers - a)misleading, b) the fans speculating on them scare me. c) been there done that - it never ends well.)

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I definitely think Bae is Peter Pan.

And hell yes, Emma deserves to be PISSED. Neal abandoned her to prison. Pregnant. And all based on five minutes with Pinnochio where Pinnochio announced that he was Rumpy's son.

Seriously, it isn't Emma who is the wrong here. It's NEAL!

I half-expected Cora to call Snow's Mom 'sister' (actually, that would explain a lot.)

And, yeah... I'm a bit confused by Regina's plot right now.

[masqthephlsphr.livejournal.com]

I don't credit Rumplestiltskin with great emotional awareness in relationships, but I think he's right when he tells Emma that Henry will come around and eventually stop blaming Emma for the lie-about-his-Dad situation.

He's a kid, and kids, especially kids who have had a black-and-white worldview like he does, are going to continue to have that until they realize there are many shades of gray in the world. Which is the same thing as the journey to maturity.

Emma does deserve to be pissed, although Neal apologized in his lame way. He still owes her some slack on this, though. He needs to tell Henry to cut his mother a break.

And everyone's in line for the "Emma needs to slug Pinocchio in his wooden nose," party right?

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Emma does deserve to be pissed, although Neal apologized in his lame way. He still owes her some slack on this, though. He needs to tell Henry to cut his mother a break.

Ironically Neal's actions towards Emma are an echo of Rumple's. When he finds out who she is, and that Pinnochio knows who he is and the curse - instead of telling Emma, or taking Emma to Storybrook. He runs away, abandoning her completely. He takes the coward's way out.

He's become the two father figures he despised the most: Hook and Rumple, without intending to.

Hook = a thief/pirate, stealing from others, and letting others take the rap, also a rogue with the ladies, seducing and breaking their hearts.

Rumple = a coward who runs from what he is afraid of, abandoning the person he loves and rationalizing it as someone else's fault or for their own good.

Also his conversation with Rumple is ironic - he tells Rumple the worst thing is to be abandoned - and that in a nutshell is exactly what he did to Emma. He left Emma in a prison and pit of despair, broken - just like Rumple did with him.

Similar to Emma/Snow.

Snow gives up Emma - hoping she can have a better life - because she knows she can't have one with her due to the curse.

Emma gives up Henry - hoping he can have a better life - because she knows he can't have one with her.

Also, both Snow and Emma grow up without their biological parents. And Henry ends up with Regina in some respects - in the same manner that Snow ended up with Regina.

Regina remember is at least 20-30 years older than Snow. She's Henry's evil Step-Great Grandmother, as Rumple is his evil Grandfather.

Oh and like David - Henry is adopted by an evil royal.

Gotta to appreciate the nifty parallels.

And everyone's in line for the "Emma needs to slug Pinocchio in his wooden nose," party right?

Oh yeah. Actually I want her to do more than that. August deserves a nice pummeling. ;-)

[flameraven.livejournal.com]

I don't think Regina is that much older than Snow. Snow was supposed to be around 12-13, when Regina became her adopted mother, and at that point I think Regina was supposed to be around 17-18. It gets tricky because they've got the actress playing the same character at all different ages, but I definitely think that when Regina married the king she was meant to be no older than 20. When the curse took hold, Snow was 23-24, and Regina is supposed to be in her early 30's? The actual dates are tricky, but I don't think they're intended to be any more than 6-7 years apart. Which is part of why Regina being Snow's "mother" is so creepy.

[masqthephlsphr.livejournal.com]

I doubt Regina is 20-30 years older than Snow. I'd say max, 15 years. She was a young bride.

Gotta to appreciate the nifty parallels.

Either that, or one of the writers has serious story kinks. Or a lack of imagination. ; )

I want to know where the frig August is. Is the actor just unavailable, or was his lack of presence in Storybrooke a writers' choice? They should at least have a scene where Gepeto reacts to that apparent absence.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Great minds think alike. ;)

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

I cut Henry some slack here because he's a kid and he feels hurt. I sympathize with what Emma did. It was mostly a well-meaning lie. But Henry is a kid so I understand why he's behaving this way, and I do think he'll get over it.

Pinnochio deserved to be punched. In the face.

[masqthephlsphr.livejournal.com]

Henry has two issues (besides being a kid) that make it harder for him to deal with Emma lying.

(1) He has major mommy issues re: Regina. She did mess with his head before the curse broke by denying the truth of his beliefs in the fairytale book while at the same time being obviously worried about that book in her conversations with him.

(2) Henry is all the time with the "Good always wins," "I want to be a hero like my family," "Ending the curse will bring back the happy endings." It's a kids-eye view of the world, taken to an extreme, and he needs to have that toned down a bit to mature optimism and the realization that heroes are fallible but that doesn't make them less heroes. That's part of his journey.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I half-expected Cora to call Snow's Mom 'sister' (actually, that would explain a lot.)

It may still happen. And it certainly would explain a lot.

That's the spoiler I read. I don't think I want it to- because we are heading into convoluted incestuous soap opera territory here. (It would make Regina - Henry's great aunt, and step-great grandmother and adopted mother.)
LOL! OTOH...it does explain the hatred.

Yeah, I definitely think Bae is Peter Pan.

No doubt in my mind at the moment. Assuming they stick to the rules of that story - which were that only two people can captain Hook's ship - Hook and Peter Pan. Hook was in the stories - another father figure. I think he is here too - actually he's Bae's step-father. Does Emma know Hook's back-story? I can't remember.

And hell yes, Emma deserves to be PISSED. Neal abandoned her to prison. Pregnant. And all based on five minutes with Pinnochio where Pinnochio announced that he was Rumpy's son.

Seriously, it isn't Emma who is the wrong here. It's NEAL!

As I stated to Masq below, Neal's actions towards Emma ironically stink of his father. He did the same thing he's so upset with his Dad for doing to him. Which to give Emma credit - she does call him on. And he clearly is nervous about telling her about his fiancee - because he obviously realizes from her perspective - he's in the dog-house more or less permanently. And having a fiancee, a pretty and successful one - is going to make it even worse.

That doesn't mean I don't want to smack him. I adore the actor playing him and the character - but damn, Bae, could you be any more like your father?
Seriously - you ran out on the gal you loved, stuck her in a prison, then you get upset you didn't know you had a kid? It's not like you ever checked to see or looked her up? Plus you move on, without seeing if she's okay?
Considering how much Bae hated being abandoned - it's ironic that what he did to Emma is just as bad as what his father did to him.

And, yeah... I'm a bit confused by Regina's plot right now.

It's too abrupt. Mom shows up and she goes all bad evil again? Okay.
This would make more sense if Regina had a reason to trust or love her mother - but I'm not seeing one. Her mother was nasty to her.

Actually this may explain why she treats Henry the way she does - she probably thinks hey, I love my mom and admire her for being all bad-evil, why wouldn't Henry be the same way??

[masqthephlsphr.livejournal.com]

What they might be doing with Neal is making him an overgrown boy, in the tradition of Peter Pan. Young!Baelfire didn't seem half as immature as his older self, but two centuries in Neverland or whatever could stunt your growth.

Also explains his cuteness appeal. He's all "Aren't I cute and I know it" in Tallahassee. Problem is, he gets away with it, 'cause he is.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Oh, he definitely is. ;-)

The Peter Pan references abound.

[flameraven.livejournal.com]

The problem with Neal for me is that I keep seeing him as Rene from True Blood. Who was Really Bad News. I can't see him as cute at all. I know the actor is not the character, but... yeah.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

When explaining the story to someone it struck me that it's allow cycles that are repeating. Snow gave up Emma to protect her and for her own good, but Emma still felt rejected by that. Then Emma gave up Henry for his own good, and he has unexpressed feelings about that.

Rumpy felt his father's fears and weaknesses reflected on him, and he responded by magnifying those fears and weaknesses such that he became the Dark One to hide and overpower... allienating Bae who was horrified by the way his father weilded power.

Bae/Neal felt abandoned by his father who chose his own life over that of his son became Neal who convinced himself it was okay to abandon Emma rather than be exposed as Rumpy's son, so he wasn't there (in a way abandonning) his own son.

Cora constantly manipulated and controlled Regina for her own ambitions and quest for power. And now Regina time and again follows the same pattern.

You know, I'm beginning to understand why Belle is so damnable gullible...

[flameraven.livejournal.com]

It was an interesting episode! I'm really curious as to what Cora's endgame is, because man, she has heavily invested in her plotting.

Henry blaming Emma I understand, because all he knows is "She lied to me" and in his view lying is always bad. I'm sure a big part of this is his age; 11 year olds are not known for understanding much of moral complexities and grey areas. I've a friend who is a teacher who works with 11-13 year olds, and she assures me that at that age, kids are pretty much all terrible people. Very self-absorbed. So Henry only sees the injury to him and not any of the hurt or awkwardness that might be between Emma and Neal.

They gave us enough clues here to let us know Neal is definitely Peter Pan. Makes sense. The beans seem to default to Neverland as their first destination, if Hook and his ship are any indication, and Neal could very well have ended up there and not found out about the 'real world' without magic until Wendy & Co showed up.

My roommate and I were REALLY frustrated with Snow and Charming during the scene in the tower. Seriously, how stupid can you be? Evil ALWAYS betrays you, if you want a good outcome you cannot do what evil asks. The correct move in that situation was to go "Oh, no, please don't hurt Johanna!" Lean in with the dagger and then stab Regina with it. Or Cora, whatever. You have a very sharp deadly weapon in your hand! Use it! Alternately, if they really didn't want to go in for that kind of 'betrayal' because it's too "dishonorable" for Disney, they could have said "Okay, put Johanna's heart back in, hand her over and then we'll give you the dagger. We're good, so you can trust our word, but we know you'll only betray us and kill her anyway if we give you the dagger first." Sigh.

Though really, considering they know Cora's a shapeshifter they should be much more careful in general about who they tell their plans to.

I appreciate the tempting of Snow's morality, but... Snow vowing to kill Cora is not "evil." Cora and Regina at this point have pretty much declared war, and the only "good" position in war is to defeat your enemy as cleanly and quickly as possible. Cora has caused incredible harm and obviously plans to do much more. We've seen that Snow, in the past, was some kind of army commander or general, and Charming definitely was. They should know this. Killing Cora isn't necessarily a personal vendetta or revenge, it's the best course of action to protect the town, themselves, and their family.

I'll be interested to see Cora's backstory (and presumably, more of her relationship with Rumplestiltskin) in the next episode. Her poisoning Snow's mom seemed like a deeply personal and vindictive move. I'm guessing if they weren't related, they might have been best friends and Snow's mom "betrayed" Cora somehow.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

I'm betting Regina kills Cora. It'll probably be to protect Henry and might even protect Emma. It might even look redemptive but it will be emotionally intollerable to her and will redouble her hatred for the forseeable future.

[flameraven.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I think this is pretty likely.

[masqthephlsphr.livejournal.com]

I vote for Regina being the one to neutralize Cora as well, although it will seem to be Snow in the running for that up to the last minute.

Regina will be reluctant up to the last moment because it's her mother, and because she is loathe to help out the Snow-Charming clan (except Henry).

[embers-log.livejournal.com]

Regarding Regina's actions: sometimes people cannot break the family dynamics they grew up with (like adults who act like children when they visit their parents). I felt that maybe Regina just has no moral compass of her own: when she is with Henry she tries to win his approval by trying to be good... and when she is with her Mother she tries to win approval by being the evil daughter/Queen her Mother always wanted her to be. So maybe she is more consistent than she looks, she is always weak and easily led.

Or not. I hope the writers have actual reasons/intentions behind these story lines.

Pretty much the only character I'm all that interested in is Rumplestiltskin,...

[flameraven.livejournal.com]

My roommate and I watch the show together and have been discussing the characters a lot. Her theory was that Emma, Regina, and Rumplestilstkin all share an obsession with having control. Emma is obsessed with controlling her life because she feels the only person she can trust is herself and she doesn't know how to rely on or trust anyone else. Rumplestiltskin is obsessed with having control because he is terrified of uncertainties --especially evident in this last episode with the war and the prophecy. He's too afraid to face a situation he's not expecting, so he tries to manipulate everything so he will know what's coming.

Regina is obsessed with control because she thinks it's the only way she'll get what she wants. Cora took away all Regina's control when she killed Daniel, who was all Regina wanted. Then, later, all Regina wanted was revenge on Snow, hence the curse. Now, all she wants is Henry. I don't think she entirely trusts or even forgives Cora, but Cora is offering her the illusion of control to get Henry, and getting Henry is all Regina is focused on. And, too, I think she was honest when she talked to Snow. She wanted to be good for Henry, but being 'good' has still gotten her nothing but scorn from the people she hates, so why bother?

She was clearly disturbed by the revelation of just how thoroughly Cora manipulated her life, which shattered her illusions of control. I don't think she's really on board with Cora's plans, but Cora is so devious that at this point, I'm not sure there's any way out for Regina other than some kind of heroic sacrifice.

[masqthephlsphr.livejournal.com]

Rumplestiltskin's obsession with control makes me suspect the dagger Snow and Charming found (and lost to Cora) is *not* the real dagger, but a duplicate Rumple made to divert his enemies while he was out of town. It just seems highly improbable he would leave his fate in that particular matter up to chance.