Once Upon a Time - The Miller's Daughter

[shadowkat]

Another Rumplestilskin centric episode - so of course it was quite good and well-paced.
Also we finally got our twist on the Rumplestilskin story, which was intriguing. Particularly if you know the original - go here:http://www.eastoftheweb.com/short-stories/UBooks/Rum.shtml. I won't retell it - I already posted on it last year.



* The twist is that the Miller's Daughter and Rumplestilskin bond over their issues and fall deeply in love. But Rumple and the Miller's Daughter/Cora are both so twisted with their desire for power - that it can't work. She's twisted by the her husband, Henry's father, who is power hungry and tells her a heart and love are weakness. She has a choice she can either marry Henry, rule, be Queen with everyone at her feet, or run off with her ugly magical imp.
She chooses the former, and rips out her own heart. As she tells Rumple - he's her weakness, he was the only man she ever loved, so she ripped out her own heart so she wouldn't give in to her weakness. Also he doesn't get Regina, since they amended they agreement - he only gets his own child.

Ah the ironies...

Without a heart, she is unable to truly love. And unable to love, Cora never has Regina either. And realizes too late that the love of her child would have been enough.

It's all so tragic. Except both Regina and Cora more or less made their own bed.
Weirdly, Rumplestilskin is more sympathetic in this episode than the Miller's daughter. Although when I read the Annotated Grimm's version - I didn't like the Miller's daughter or the King all that much - they came across as greedy and manipulative. I felt sorry for Rumple in the original tale. So this version weirdly aligns with that one.

Here, don't like either Regina or Cora. What Snow decides to do is ironically set in motion by both Cora and Regina, and merely aided by Rumplestilskin. Snow regrets it, but to be fair, I'm not sure Cora, Regina and Rumple give her much choice. Regina's choice to take vengeance on Eva, who cruelly tripped her as a spoiled child...leads her to lose her own child and her own life.

She chose power over love and died...barely ever knowing the love of a parent for her own child. She got that at the very end. Rumplestilskin was a tad wiser, he never removed his heart...and he tells her over and over again - power is empty, you'll have nothing.

* Turns out Regina inadvertently is the one to kill her mother - but it isn't intentional. She was attempting to give her mother back her heart, obtaining love. What she didn't know is Snow cursed it first. Poor baby. Not quite the way I wanted it to turn out - mainly because we are right back to Regina wanting to destroy everyone's lives so she can kill Snow, who of course is to blame for every bad thing that ever happened to Regina, because it just can't be Regina or Mama or Rumple's fault...it has to be Snow White's.

* Rumplestilskin was interesting in this episode...he gives everyone choices and manipulates everyone, but really does nothing himself. He manipulates Emma into performing magic - except unlike Regina and Cora - he has Emma do it out of love not hate. Rumple and Regina and Cora practice magic out of hate and vengeance. Rumple seems to get the difference.
He's wiser and a lot smarter than either Regina or Cora, which makes him a more interesting and more complicated villain. Not to mention more ambiguous one. Plus less predictable.
Regina and Cora are predictable, dumb, and a bit one-note in their villainery - because they don't appear to have any self-awareness. And are easily manipulated by others.

Snow was more interesting in this episode than Regina or Cora, because Snow wrestles with her choices and feels remorse. I have yet to see remorse from either Regina or Cora. Cora doesn't really show it at the end...she merely states with awe, that Regina would have been enough ...and she didn't need the power after all. But I don't see any regret or remorse, just surprise. And Regina shows no remorse, she just feels vindicated for hating Snow and regrets trusting her to give her back her Mom - so she can take Henry from them.
Which I found difficult to buy - I mean hello, Regina, just last week you killed Snow's substitute Mom, Johanna, Snow found out Cora killed her Mom, and you are currently threatening to kill Snow's entire family? Do you really think Snow will help you out of the kindness of her heart? You're not exactly endearing anyone to your cause at the moment, dearie. Rumple right now is more sympathetic than you are.

Also, the Cora/Regina finale scene felt very karmic. It was the inevitable result of both characters choices. Cora's in killing Snow white's mother and setting Regina up to hate and destroy Snow, and Regina's in destroying Snow's life. If they'd left well-enough alone, they both would have had the happiness they desired. Their desire for power and revenge on those they felt hurt or disenfranchised them destroyed everything worth having. Unfortunately, unlike Rumplestilskin, neither obtained the wisdom to see that and were doomed to lose each other. If you can't see yourself for who you are...you can't learn or change and you can't be redeemed. Self-awareness is 90% of the battle. At this point, I can see Rumplestilskin reaching some sense of balance or redemption, not so sure about Regina.

* I can see why Snow followed Rumple's instructions - from her perspective there really was no other option. She couldn't let Cora get the dagger. Also Cora and Regina had killed Snow's entire family - her father, her mother, and her substitute Mom - Johanna. Plus Regina separated Snow from her own daughter for 28 years. Regina and Cora had a butt-load of bad karma headed in their direction. And I'm not even counting all the other innocent lives they destroyed en-route to their goals - power and control. Rumplestilskin equally has a butt-load of bad karma headed his way, although to be fair, he's already most of his - he's lost every woman he's loved - two ripped out their hearts. Actually Cora was karmic justice for Millah, the one woman who understood him and could love him for what he was - ripped out her own heart to become just like him and gave him up to do it. If that isn't irony, I don't know what is. And the only one who saw the good in him, can't remember him. Then of course there's the son that he's been separated from for an eternity. Now he's faced with some of the same ironic choices that Cora and Regina were faced with - he can either love and protect his new family or act to destroy it.

Snow followed the dark path, but being Snow instantly regretted it and set out to undo it.
She was right and wrong at the same time. She was right in returning Cora's heart to her, but wrong in trading Cora's life for Rumple's. I knew she would -because it is in a way a karmic reflection on what happened with her own mother, EVA. Cora poisoned Eva in much the same way that Hook poisoned Rumple. Cora gave Snow the same choice that Rumple gives her - use the candle to exchange one life for another. So Snow exchanges Cora's life for Rumple's.
If she'd not done that and just given Cora back her heart - would it have gone better?
I doubt it - just because Cora can now love Regina, doesn't mean she wouldn't take down Rumple and attempt to take Henry away from Emma and Snow. If anything she'd be even more motivated. So from that perspective I'm not sure Snow had any other choice - Regina and Cora sort of pushed her to it.

Morally it was wrong. But, you have to admit it was ultimately practical. Her only mistake was not taking out Regina too. Snow, darling, if you leave one evil magic user standing...you still have a problem.

* After rewatching several episodes from S1 today, it occurs to me that if the real world comes to Storybrook - Dr. Hopper has a point, Regina may lose Henry legally. Magic may cost her Henry on legal grounds alone. As Rumple has warned her in the past on numerous occasions, magic always comes with a price and well, it works differently in this world than it did in the old one. Also she's grossly underestimating Emma and has from the beginning.
Emma is not only brighter than she is, but she's also a bit more capable of taking care of things without magic. All Emma has to do is take Henry out of Storybrook or send him off with Baelfire and Regina will never see Henry ever again. If I were Regina I'd learn how to get on Emma's good side and give up my kill Snow White hobby, particularly since it hasn't gotten me anywhere to date and appears to be more trouble than it's worth. Snow White is a bit like the road-runner, she can't be killed. Give up already.

* Show stop teasing me about killing off one of the lead regulars - I know you aren't going to do it. Snow White, Charming, Rumple, Emma, Henry, and Regina are pretty much safe. Why do tv shows do this? We all know they aren't killing these characters off. There would be no tv show. Now, supporting characters are another story - Star Trek made that much clear ages ago.

I knew Cora was going to get it sooner or later, she was too Bwahhahha evil not to. Plus killing her...advances or allegedly advances Regina's arc. Personally, I think it just set it back a season. The only arc it appears to have advanced is Snow White's.

* Michael Raymond James/Baelfire you need to stop mumbling. I shouldn't have to turn on the close-captioning to figure out what you are saying. I love you, but speak clearly please and not in your mustache. Not much of him in this episode, and I feel gypped of Peter Pan references regarding the sailing of Hook's ship. Has Emma figured out how he knows Hook?
Will that get referenced? They better not just drop it. I'll be annoyed.

Overall - good episode. But I would have preferred more Bae and Emma, or Bae and Charming, or Henry and Emma, and a lot less Cora and Regina and Snow. The Regina/Snow conflic is getting old. This needs to be resolved soon. Right now it is rinse and repeat. You can't sustain that forever people. We do require closer sooner or later.

Comments

[embers-log.livejournal.com]

I was worried they might kill off Gold/Rumplestiltskin... if Robert Carlyle wanted to leave the cast. I'm glad they didn't, he remains the only character I'm really that into.

I felt a little bad that young Cora was played by Rose McGowan (who I think is a terrible actress), Barbara Hershey is so good... . Oh well. So I guess they've given Regina plenty of motivation (I agree, it is a set back, but maybe the writers haven't really come up with an idea of where she is going to go... besides, traditionally that Queen WAS evil).

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

And unfortunately the Queen isn't that much less evil here...I thought for a bit they were going to make her less evil, but now I'm not so sure. If they don't - they'll have to kill her off because otherwise she becomes a joke.
I think they are trying to make her more complex...but it's not working for me personally.

[masqthephlsphr.livejournal.com]

It's not working for you because they're *not* making her more complex, she's right back where she started from, right after she killed her father and thought her mother had been killed at her behest.

Alone. Only now, it's not a conscious decision on her part to remove all emotional ties in order to complete the task (the curse) she needs to complete, now it's all an unintended consequence of her actions declaring war on Henry's bio-family and choosing her (oh, hey, alive after all) mother as her ally.

Which was an act of the heart, if ever there was one.

I am hoping this is a step on the road to seeing her actions have consequences, and her taking responsibility for them. These writers are too good to flub so majorly with this one character.

[masqthephlsphr.livejournal.com]

It started with, "Gee, this is kinda predictable if you know the story of the miller's daughter." Didn't stay predictable.

Wow.

[masqthephlsphr.livejournal.com]

Although I never bought the Cora and Rumple were in love. They said the words, but they didn't sell it. Mutual lust like some twisted psycho-couple, yes. I was actually surprised by how they conveyed that lust in the first scene with the spinning wheel. But as soon as they started calling it "love", the chemistry just fell flat between them.

Also, SO glad Regina isn't Rumple's daughter. It would have made no sense, emotion-wise, and just added to the soap opera of the show after Baelfire/Emma/Henry.

Now, of course I am wondering how Henry, senior lost his power so that Cora had to scheme to get her daughter married off to a different king.

[flameraven.livejournal.com]

Well, Cora mentioned something about being 5th in line to the throne, which is a little... odd since we didn't see any other siblings of the prince hanging around. (Possibly the king had brothers and sisters or relatives of that generation who would inherit first.) If she wasn't able to kill her competitors, maybe the best she could do was to marry her daughter off to a different king. Certainly in the previous episodes I got the impression that Cora was living like a wealthy noble, but not necessarily like a princess.

[masqthephlsphr.livejournal.com]

I have been wracking my brains trying to figure out the family tree there. The princess that tripped Cora had to be Eva, Snow's mother, so is she the prince's sister? Or his cousin? She became queen, but she had a king-husband (IOW, she was not the sovereign), which meant at most that king would be her cousin if he were related to her at all. Are there two kingdoms?

A lot of holes there. But a possibility that Snow and Regina could be related as first cousins once removed or some other distant biological relation, but who can tell?

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Also, SO glad Regina isn't Rumple's daughter. It would have made no sense, emotion-wise, and just added to the soap opera of the show after Baelfire/Emma/Henry.

Agreed. Somewhat relieved that Eva was just a random royal who pissed Cora off, because she humiliated her. This is something Cora and Rumple had in common, although they built it up better with Rumple - he was getting humiliated right and left before he finally got fed up and went after the Dark One's magic. Cora is just a psychopath.

Although I never bought the Cora and Rumple were in love. They said the words, but they didn't sell it.

Oh, I didn't see it as "love" in quite the same way as Snow/Charming or even Neal/Emma for that matter...or Belle/Rumple or Hook/Millah. This felt more like two people bonding over their similar desire for power and control. It would never have worked in the long run - too similar. So more "lust" or "wild romantic affair love". I do think Cora told him the truth when she said he was the closest she'd ever come to loving anyone and she had to rip out her own heart to resist her passion for him. I honestly don't think Cora was capable of actual love - selfish love, yes, selfless, no. She always put her needs first.

Rumple is a bit more complex, which makes him a more interesting character.
They really didn't develop Cora enough...

[masqthephlsphr.livejournal.com]

I guess what I meant was, I didn't see their passion as anything but calculated and so I didn't buy it when they declared their passion for each other, or that it had anything to do with passion of the heart *at all*.

Hot, yes, it was hot in a disturbing way (that spinning wheel scene, anyway), but after that, I saw them as calculating allies, and didn't buy they had ANY kind of thing for each other. Well, maybe Rumple a little bit, but only in that way where he's kind of dumb about women. Not Cora, not at all. Don't see why her heart was any kind of impediment to her re: Rumple. It wasn't even a factor. The writers "told" but didn't "show" that to me.

[flameraven.livejournal.com]

The episode was quite good, and I especially enjoyed Gold's speech to Belle at the end and his moment with Bae. Like Bae said, I didn't think he had it in him. Of course, it's probably worth noting that since he was almost dead, his power was mostly gone, and he was likely the closest to his "actual self" that he'd been in hundreds of years, without the corrupting influence of the Dark One's magic.

Definitely interesting that he couldn't heal himself with magic even while in Storybrooke. Seems like we've seen him heal much worse before. Maybe he wanted to die?

I think there's still the possibility of redemption for Rumplestiltskin, but it would have to involve finding a way to give up that magic entirely. I'm not sure it's possible to be good with it; it's too corrupting.

Kinda wondering what happened to Hook off-screen last episode. Did they just... leave him there? Did anybody think to call the cops to come arrest him?

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Emma just locked him up in one of the rooms at Bae's apartment building and left him there. She keeps locking him up and leaving Hook places. It's hilarious.

We've decided there's a Regina/Hook relationship on the horizon. They have a common enemy after-all - Rumplestilskin. Plus - their hook up would be ironic, considering they are in a way both evil step-parents. Hook to Bae, Regina to Snow.

I think the poison was the reason he couldn't heal himself?

Of course, it's probably worth noting that since he was almost dead, his power was mostly gone, and he was likely the closest to his "actual self" that he'd been in hundreds of years, without the corrupting influence of the Dark One's magic.

Good point. I hadn't thought of that. But I think this is mostly true. Although in Manhattan, when he had no magic - the nasty Rumplestilskin raised its' nasty head. So the show is doing a good job of showing that it's not the magic, it's him - his own dark side that he has to overcome.

[masqthephlsphr.livejournal.com]

Nasty Rumplestiltskin in Manhattan was mostly just nasty to Henry, and that's because he finally realized he's the Boy of the prophecy that will be Rumplestiltskin's "undoing."

I definitely think Hook added a poison to his hook that wasn't going to be that easy to just wipe away with the wave of a hand. He's too smart to underestimate Rumplestiltskin.

Which is why I think he's Regina's best bet. Actually, at this point, she's alienated everyone, so he's her only bet.

[flameraven.livejournal.com]

I don't know, Rumplestilskin spent the entire time since leaving Storybrooke basically being completely freaked out. He's never had to deal with the real world before, he doesn't have any magic so he considers himself helpless, he seems to think he could lose his memories at any time without that shawl, and of course he's about to encounter his estranged son. So I think he was lashing out and being especially harsh to cover up his nervousness.


I'm not sure why Rumple can reattach an arm but can't heal some poison... whatever. It was clearly plot poison so I guess I'm fine with it.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Some things you just have to handwave as tv writer logic. Actually applying logic to anything in our world is a bit silly I've begun to realize. TV Shows, Movies, Books, government agencies and organizations sort of defy it.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

I do feel sorry for Regina because not only was she manipulated for her entire life by her mother (which does sort of make sense of her habit of assigning all-powerfulness to her 'enemies' making them responsible for 'everything'... because that must have been what it felt like when dealing with Cora) but now, she was fooled into killing her own mother. I think that's going to be the greater (real) sticking point for her. The lack of control and choice. She won't claim that it is the sticking point, but it will be.

Snow successfully manipulated Regina, and THAT is what will be unbearable to Regina. Regina's thirst for power comes from her once having felt like a pawn, a game piece, and in the irony of cyclical compulsion, she turns everyone into HER game piece so that she can have control.

NONE of this makes Regina's actions defensible however. Still, she makes some sense as a character. And she is going to be bent on vengeance on Snow. It's going to get ugly.

Ironically, Snow taking out Cora probably isn't a bad thing. But it is a bit like Rupert and Wood ambushing Spike. While I can understand what they were doing, they did it in a way that was tricking and in Wood's case robbing the free will of the one they wished to kill. That's the point where what their choice crossed a line.

Killing Cora was somewhat inevitable. Tricking Regina into doing it while SMART on Snow's part, was actually manipulative. So if Snow is conflicted by that last bit, I can understand her inner conflict. Though it should be faced and surmounted.

Certainly, Snow is forgivable in the long run by the audience. I don't know how easy it will ever be to have Regina and Snow come to terms with one another. But then I've thought for a while that if Regina ever finds redemption it will be in redemptive death.

Snow will have to do some soul searching, but she'll find a way to come to terms with having a darker side.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

No real disagreements here.

Only one small quibble regarding the analogy to Wood/Giles and Spike. Doesn't work for me at all. In part because Spike was not in control of the trigger, and he wasn't planning on killing the Scooby Gang, he was trying to help.

I think if you want to draw an analogy to BTVS - the whole Xander knowing that Willow is giving Angelus back his soul but not telling Buffy about it - because it might keep her from killing him while he destroys the world as they know it - is more on target. Cora reminds me more of Angelus than Spike, but YMMV.

Although even that doesn't quite hold up. Mainly because Cora is written as completely irredeemable. Heart or no heart - she's written as a psychopath. And Cora and Regina were plotting on using Rumple to kill everyone in the shop - which Angel would not have done with his soul in place, but Cora and Regina would have. There's no indication they wouldn't. After all Regina barely flinches when they kill innocent Johanna after Snow gives them the dagger.

No, Regina reaped what she sowed in this instance. She needs to take a little responsibility, and let go of the whole grudge match with Snow White.
Or have nothing.

Other than that, I agree.

[masqthephlsphr.livejournal.com]

If she's still balking in the next episode about Why Henry Doesn't Love Me, I recommend extended psychotherapy.

By someone other than Dr. Hopper, who was her victim and therefore she doesn't take seriously.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

I wasn't thinking of Spike = Cora. I was thinking more along the line of Regina wasn't there knowingly murdering her mother. She was manipulated into it, and that sort of struck me as how Spike was turned into a monster by Wood without his knowing that's what was going to happen when he went with Wood. I can understand why Wood felt that was justified, just as I understand how Snow feels it's justified. Spike did things that had horrid repercussions for Wood while he was growing up, just as Regina has done horrid things to Snow. So I understand why Wood and Snow reached the point of doing what they did. But Wood doing that was crossing a line. Snow's line isn't as easily defined, but I think when it comes to monstrous acts, or bringing someone else to a monstrous act, taking someone's choice out of the equation crosses a line (though I by no means think that Snow's is something that is unforgiveable. Just that for once, Regina actually does have one legitimate point to complain about re: Snow. That said, the balance of what's been done to whom, is still in Snow's favor. Because, yes, Regina has done enough truly villainous things that I don't see her as the victim. Though I do feel some sympathy for her...but it's not like Cora is worth the angst.

Regina needs Cordy to tell her to "spank her inner moppet."

[masqthephlsphr.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I feel a little bit gypped of the Henry-Neal conversation over the wheel of the ship, and the introductions to Emma's parents being quick and sort of just skipped over.

Not to mention we've seen TWO episodes where it has not been told to Regina, nor has she commented, on Henry's father suddenly being discovered, and now in Storybrooke, AND that he's Rumplestiltskin's son. I can see that's a distracting issue that swerves a bit from the main plotlines of the past two eps, but that's GOING to be a major sticking point for her. No way it cannot, especially now that she's left to her own devices and has no allies at all, not even a distrustful alliance with Mr. Gold (any chance of that is G O N E).

[flameraven.livejournal.com]

I think the introductions were quick because they just didn't have time to really go into it. I mean, Gold is dying, Cora and Regina have a magic dagger and are apparently planning to kill Snow/Emma/Charming/whoever they feel like, Snow is grieving for Johanna, Emma is dealing with everything involving Neal... the characters are kind of busy. I'm sure we'll get all that emotional fallout, but we had to get the plot out of the way first. Well, that plot. Seriously, I don't even know what we'll do for a finale anymore.

[masqthephlsphr.livejournal.com]

Oh, I understood the reason, I was just 'ship-grousing with ShadowKat. ; )

I expect, given the title for next week's episode, all the above will be covered.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I don't know if they will or not. Next week's episode looks like more of the Regina/Snow and Cora plotline. With any luck that plot will end with the next episode.

We got snippets of Emma/Neal and how she was dealing with finding out about his fiancee (who apparently was just a random walk-on role and no one important). There's a couple of nice throw-away lines buried in there. Where she tells him that she's hardly upset or shocked to discover that some guy she dated 10 years ago is now engaged - ie. get over yourself dude. I love Emma.

I'm hoping they will. They very well might - this show surprises me and is a bit like LOST in how they handle this sort of thing. A lot of action oriented or plot heavy tv series don't care about emotional fall-out or details like this and are more interested in putting everyone in place for the big fight. But if you don't do the emotional details, the audience isn't going to care who survives that big fight.

Actually I think they did the Cora flashback to get us to care about Cora dying...which worked and didn't at the same time. (ie. I did not care when Cora died, but I did find her death ironically/karmically tragic.)

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Seriously, I don't even know what we'll do for a finale anymore.

Oh, you've been too focused on the whole Cora/Regina get Henry back mislead..to miss the real threat. The real threat is that the real world, or the land without magic is beginning to become aware of Storybrook. That's the upcoming battle - whether to stay in the Land without Magic or go back and reclaim FTL. And if they stay - how to live in that land?

Far more interesting plot-thread than whether Regina can get Henry back from Emma.

These are former Lost writers - they are interested in a much bigger picture and theme.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Yes, this annoys me in tv series. It's why I find myself reading fanfic and/or writing it. Silly writers get into their plot mechanics and don't give me the emotional details that I want. I'm hoping this show is more like LOST and less like Buffy, and delivers those small details. I think it will - since it did in other episodes.

Say what you will about daytime serials, but at least they give you those small details.

I was looking forward to the whole Bae explaining himself to Snow and Charming, plus Regina discovering Henry is Baelfire's kid/aka Rumple's grandkid. That I can't figure out how they'll do, and is less predictable. So I was actually more interested in that plot line and story than the whole Regina/Cora vs. Snow/Charming/Rumple plot thread ...

I can see that's a distracting issue that swerves a bit from the main plotlines of the past two eps, but that's GOING to be a major sticking point for her. No way it cannot, especially now that she's left to her own devices and has no allies at all, not even a distrustful alliance with Mr. Gold (any chance of that is G O N E).

Not that she ever really had an alliance with Rumple. Rumple mainly manipulated her to get what he wanted. I keep wondering when she'll figure it out - that all this time, she's basically been little more than Rumplestilskin's puppet?

Now that he more or less has gotten what he wants, I'm wondering what he'll do about Regina?

If I were Regina, I'd think twice about pursuing my grudge against Snow at this point - and work harder and building up some goodwill with Emma. Emma apparently is the only one who has much sway with Gold and the only one that I think Gold is a little uncertain of.

[masqthephlsphr.livejournal.com]

Except for the part where Rumple manipulated Emma big time with the magic in this episode. That was disturbing for an Emma fan, after seeing how he played young Regina with it.

I think Emma is smarter than Regina (esp young Regina), more suspicious and less sheltered. But she is trying awfully hard to accept Rumple as Family, and I think she's starting to like that she has a bit of magic.