Welcome to Storybrook - OUAT - S2 tonight's episode

[shadowkat]

This season is so good, and tonight's episode was amongst the best. First off, I continue to adore you, Emma, you do everything I'd have done. And well, Regina or rather Whingina...karma, babe, it's a bitch and it's coming straight for you. Although this episode did a rather good job of layering the character.



Rather adored this episode, particularly the casting. Once Upon a Time unlike a lot of tv shows likes to cast a broad range of actors. Not just pretty people. It helps with the realism. Everything about this episode worked for me - this is how you do a story - you go with the characters, not the theme or the plot - you let the characters drive it.

Also, rather like the continued emphasis on parent/child relationships over romantic ones.

The opening act was great. We are back in time - 28 years ago, in 1983, and a boy and his Dad are camping in the Maine Woods, when all of a sudden they are beset by a violent electrical/magical storm. The place they'd driven through where nothing existed previously now has an entire town.
Flynn (who I like a lot) tells his son (Owen) - this is impossible - there was nothing here before.
And up pops Sheriff Graheam who asks them what they are doing here - and introduces them to Regina.

Regina who thinks, yay, I won, I successfully cursed everyone into a hellish version of Ground-hog Day. They do the same thing over and over again each day, but don't realize it. Each day - Gepetto is putting up his sign, each day Mary Margaret Blanchard visits charming and teaches her classes and runs into Regina. She always apologizes. And each day...Rumplestilskin walks by and sees Ruby standing outside the gate of the restaurant. Each day, Doctor Hopper says it is a beautiful day.
Regina controls everyone in the town. When she bumps into Mary Magaret, Mary apologizes and never fights back. Never argues. It's all rather boring and empty. Regina wonders, after she wakes up in bed with Graham, why she isn't happy.

So she calls Owen and Flynn, who she met at the restaurant. The boy who gave her a threaded ribbon in return for her letting him sit in her seat. She becomes enamored of the boy and wants him. She attempts to convince the father, Flynn, to stay in town, to move there. But he flatly turns her down - stating New Jersey is home. He'd only brought his kid here to help him get past his mother's death. The kid, hating NJ and the bullies in his school - in a weak moment confides this to Regina, and Regina thinks - ah, instant family, love, a little boy with unconditional love.
But Flynn refuses to comply. So she tries to force it. He tries to flee. She controls Graheam by telling his heart what to do. And sends Grahaem to capture Flynn and the kid. Flynn blocked from leaving Storybrook - tells Owen to run for his life. Owen refuses to go without Flynn but he does.
And Regina tries to stop him - stating - I just wanted you to be happy with me. And Owen states - "Not like this!" She takes Flynn away, leaving Owen alone.

This may be the worst thing she's ever done. And what happens with Henry in the present echoes it.
Because the present time plot-line is similar, Regina tries to get Henry to love her, and get her revenge at the same time. Rumplestilskin/Gold tries to tell Regina that her mistake is the same as her mother's she thinks she can have it all - revenge and Henry, power and love. You can't. It's one or the other. Cut your losses and move on. Rumple should take his own advice, and perhaps that's why he knows this - because he can't quite have Bae or Henry, because he can't quite give up the power and control either. Do as I say, not as I do. Kudos to Robert Carlyle for playing the layers.

At any rate... Regina decides to caste a curse on Henry, making him love her, making him want to stay with her - even after she takes vengeance on Snow. (seriously Reggie, haven't you figured out by now - that people often do themselves in? Like you? You're need for vengeance is merely rotting your own soul.)

To protect Henry and a guilt-ridden/bed-ridden Snow White who can't quite live with what she did. Because she manipulated her evil step-mother into killing her even more evil step-grandmother who has attempted to kill her or turn her evil on five occasions. Oh and managed to kill or manipulate her daughter into killing Snow's entire family. But hey, it was still wrong to manipulate Regina into killing the evil Cora...because it's not like Regina didn't try to do it when the evil Cora was attempting to come through the magical fountain earlier in the season or anything. I get the quilt. But seriously, Snow, it's not like you didn't give them a lot of get-out-of-jail free cards already.

When Rumple told us Regina (Whingina) plan - which was to curse Henry into loving her so she could finally get her vengeance on Snow White, by killing her - I thought, easy solution - have Bae take Henry back to NYC with him. Protects Henry. No curse. Also may teach Regina a lesson. Although ironically that's what happened with Owen - Flynn, his Dad, wanted to take him out of town.

Guess what, my girl Emma, comes up with that solution. God, I adore this character. She does exactly what I would do in these scenarios. She wants to tell Henry the truth. When Henry won't listen to her - she takes him to his Dad and has him tell Henry the plan - which is to go stay with Dad in NYC for a bit. Thank you, Emma. You are my favorite character right now. I love you.
Also loving Jennifer Morrison in the role, shocking I know, but there it is. [YMMV. Talk to the hand. ;-)]

Though Henry, who is definitely his father's son, takes off with plans of his own.

Emma: Wait, where is his back-pack?
Bae: I'm sure he's fine...
Emma: Are you kidding me? He's your son -
Bae: Oh shit.

Bae tried to tell him getting rid of magic won't work. But hey, why not try? I give Emma credit for figuring out that he'd do that...since he was constantly doing it last season. Seriously, someone needs to put a lock-jab on that kid. And I would ship him back to Manhattan, NY with Bae, right quick, regardless. Storybrook as long as there is magic and Regina, is not safe.

Also liked what Rumple stated - that the best solution is getting rid of Regina. Kill her, you solve all your problems. So true. Granted, you have to live with it - but hey, the alternative isn't much better.

Emma : You mean just kill her? Isn't there any other alternative?
Henry: You can't be discussing killing my Mom! You are supposed to be heroes.
Me: Kid, what stories have you been reading? Oh that's right you've been reading the Disney versions. Got it.

I like the fact that the writers are commenting on this in a sly way.

Meanwhile...Henry runs into the guy from the outside world, who appears to be staying way past his welcome. Both lie about what they are doing in the woods, and both realize that they are lying to each other. Henry tells the guy, who claims to be "hiking in the woods" that the trail is in the opposite direction, and the guy questions Henry's claim to be getting his merit badge.

Regina finds Henry at the magic fountain - attempting to blow it up. And she actually does try to listen to him. But she's so self-absorbed by what she wants, she doesn't quite hear him. Henry loves Regina, obviously, but he also loves his family. She wants to have Henry and get vengeance on his family - and he says doesn't want that.

Regina: I just want us to be happy.
Henry: Not this way.
(an echo of Owen, which causes Regina to pause).

She stops him from blowing himself up. But she can't get rid of her magic. She does however compromise and burn up the curse. Not giving into the temptation.

Meanwhile...Snow White asks Rumplestilskin how he lives with himself, with all the horrible things he's done, and Rumple says, you tell yourself enough times that you did the right thing, you begin to believe it. Yet, Rumple, much like Regina, still refuses to do anything for anyone out of the kindness of his heart or empathy, there's always a deal involved or he has to be prodded into it.
Here - all he will do is provide information and he does it reluctantly, regardless of his family's involvement.

Both Rumple and Regina can't quite get past themselves and their own desires and needs long enough to care about anyone else. There's also a great scene between Rumple and Regina, where he tells her that enacting the curse out of vengeance did not make anything better and just left a hole in her heart, and she says, it wasn't her curse - it was his. Yes, he agrees, but you were the one who chose to enact it, not I. Rumple is a master at manipulating others into doing his dirty work.
So it's fun to see Charming manipulate Rumple into helping them against his will.

When Regina finally gets her confrontation with Snow - Snow goes to Regina in the hopes that Regina will just kill her. And Regina rips out Snow's heart, only to discover a dark spot. And realizes killing Snow is the wrong approach. It's better to let Snow destroy herself with her own guilt. Stating the darkness will only grow and Snow will lose everything, and Regina will gain it all and finally win.

We get a final flashback of Owen...in 1983, standing outside Storybrook, with the police, hunting his Dad. But Regina has camouflaged the town. He can't see anything and neither can the cops. She stands on the other side of the magical wall watching, teary-eyed, wishing she could have Owen, not realizing that what she took from him is not something he'll ever forgive her for. This is similar to Henry...she's right, Henry will never forgive her if she deprives him of his family, just as Owen never would.

Back to present day...the guy from the outside the world has just taken pictures of Regina ripping out Snow's heart and re-inserting it. And we learn who that guy is, and exactly why he is sticking around...turns out he is the grown-up version of Owen, and he's looking for his Dad, Flynn. He's also compiling information on Regina and Storybrook. This is a great twist, I figured it out five minutes before it was revealed, but great twist and lovely way to ironically kick Regina. She basically created her own enemy. And it is a reflection of what Henry could become...


I love the themes...how vengence doesn't work, killing or destroying your enemy hurts you even more...each person you kill taints your own heart, leaving a hole behind. It's similar to Harry Potter. Violence leaves a mark on our souls.

Also Emma's question - isn't there another way? And Henry echoes this...why can't we just do away with magic and even the playing field - a view that his father shares. Magic in of itself is not bad - Regina makes the dynamite disappear, but when used in the way that Regina and Cora use it - it is.

I still feel a bit gypped by the whole lack of Bae/Emma discussion on the fiancee, and the whole Regina/Emma/Bae bit on ...wait, Baelfire is Henry's father, and Rumplestilskin is the grandfather?
I know she knows, but she doesn't appear to care all that much or even blink. It's grating.
I wanted that reaction damn-it. I'm a bit tired of the whole will Regina kill Snow or not. (Although I think that bit is finally over with.) And Regina whining about her lot in life - is also a bit old - honey, you made your bed, you get to sleep in it. I feel no sympathy for you.
And this episode really didn't change that. She's still Whingina. I'm hoping the adult version of Owen knocks her socks off...or at least gives Regina a reality check - ie, the world does not revolve around you. I get why Henry thinks it revolves around him - he is actually just a kid.
I can cut him some slack. Regina on the other hand...needs to stop acting like a 10 year old who isn't getting her way.

She is definitely all about control. That much is evident. She tries to control Flynn and Owen and that leads to her undoing. It's her biggest flaw. Her mother's was power. Regina's is control. I rather like the fact that we have women characters falling into this trap. Regina is more up front and physical with her power, while Rumplestilskin is more manipulative. Regina wants to hurt and control people herself and gets caught, while Rumple manipulates others into doing it. He created the curse and manipulated Regina into using it. Just as he created the death candle and manipulated Snow White into using it to save his life and kill Cora. He manages to skirt the blame, by manipulating others to do the deed. Even in his discussion with Charming and Snow - he lets Snow take all the blame, as he does with Regina and the curse. Slipping around it. Nor does he appear to care about the consequences or the effects on his son or grandson.

While I feel a bit gypped, the episode was admittedly a good one, it furthered the plot and the characters arcs, it also furthered the subplot and provided an interesting reveal.

Oh, and I saw the previews for next week - so I know what I felt gypped on will be addressed in next week's episode. And yes, Masq, you were right...and I was wrong, about the importance of the fiancee...she's not just a walk-on character - if the previews for next week are any indication.
This isn't exactly a spoiler - since, the previews are misleading. This episode surprised me, it wasn't at all what I thought it would be.

They also answered a few questions I had regarding Storybrook.

1. The outside world could visit, but Regina set it up so that they couldn't see the town and no one could enter the town nor did anyone know it existed. Flynn and Owen only found it, because they were already there when Regina enacted the curse and sent FTL to Maine.

2. Time literally doesn't advance. The same day is repeated ad naseum in Ground-Hog Day fashion. (A movie with Bill Murray, where he is forced to repeat the same day but is the only who knows it.) Here, Regina is the only one who knows she's repeating the same day, and when she adopts Henry, he's the only one who knows it. It's not until Emma arrives that the days advance and aren't in an eternal loop.

Rather clever that. I'd wondered. Also...it demonstrates that Regina in enacting her revenge, sentenced herself to a living hell. Everyone else is oblivious. So in a way, Regina's hell is worse than their's - nice metaphor that...because the person who enacts vengeance or hates destroys themselves. (See Macbeth and Hamlet).

Oh, I'm beginning to adore this show.

Comments

[masqthephlsphr.livejournal.com]

Making Greg = Owen has suddenly given this nobody outsider Layers. Which is great. But also, it means he is not there simply to expose Storybrooke to the world like a circus sideshow. He has a personal agenda. Which makes his trajectory a little less easy to suss out.

What puzzles me is that he sees Henry in the forest, and knows he is the mayor's kid, and *calls* the mayor to tell her where Henry is. If he remembers being trapped by that crazy woman as a child, wouldn't he have some involuntary sympathy for Henry's plight? Hard to say.

Also feel gyped about the Regina-reacting-to-Henry's-dad moment. It would only take a few seconds, and now the opportunity for it is past. She HAS to know by now, and know Henry's dad is Gold's son. But not a blip about it, even though that would intensify her rivalry with Rumplestiltskin by leaps and bounds (and should have been mentioned in that crypt scene between them).

I like how they answered a question that has been lingering among the fans--how did 28 years go by in Storybrooke and nothing ever change? Easy answer: the same events reset themselves, over and over. It's no wonder Henry figured out something was seriously wrong. Imagine growing up in that atmosphere. It would be crazy-making. You would compare the world around you, replaying over and over, against the lives of people on television, where new events take place, and... wow.

The other question is: if Regina got bored of the reset within a short amount of time, why did it take her 18 years to adopt a child of her own?

[masqthephlsphr.livejournal.com]

Follow-up thought, that Baelfire's reaction to magic is different than it was when he was 14. Which--and I had not considered this before this episode--it should be. When he was 14, the simplest answer to helping his father Rumplestiltskin stop being the Dark One was just to "get rid of magic." I expected Neal to see his son doing the same and encourage him, "Hey, chip off the old block." But he doesn't. Because he *does* realize it's a lot more complicated than a child imagines, get rid of magic, and everyone will go back to being Good People.

Henry's journey this season is to see that even heroes are flawed, but that doesn't make them bad. He's still struggling with this. He still wants easy answers and Pure of Heart adults in his life. He wants black and white, EvilQueen!Mom vs. HeroicSavior!Mom. The world isn't that simple. I feel sorry that they are giving him this struggle now, and not in a year or two, because I don't know if he knows how to process it yet. He may backlash against the very people who love him the most.

[buffyannotater.livejournal.com]

What puzzles me is that he sees Henry in the forest, and knows he is the mayor's kid, and *calls* the mayor to tell her where Henry is. If he remembers being trapped by that crazy woman as a child, wouldn't he have some involuntary sympathy for Henry's plight? Hard to say.

It seems he didn't know he was calling the mayor. In a very subtle moment, he took a quick snapshot of Henry's backpack, with his phone before handing it back to him. (So subtle, I had to rewind to notice it.) The backpack had a small patch on it, with Henry's address and number, and Owen called that number, in order to reach Henry's mom. He doesn't seem to know yet who she is. As far as I recall, he hasn't seen Regina in person yet. The one time he came close, with the video of the items in Belle's purse floating, I believe he only saw her from behind.

I also wouldn't be surprised if Owen's blocked a lot of what happened to him back then. He's probably had years not only of...I'm assuming foster care, unless he had family to raise him, which doesn't seem likely...but also probably being told he was crazy, with his stories of his dad vanishing into a town that didn't exist, then did, then disappeared again. I could see him spending years possibly convincing himself it wasn't true and suppressing a lot of it.

[masqthephlsphr.livejournal.com]

I think he may have been raised by his uncle, who the dad tells Owen to run to after he escapes town. If it's the boy's mother's brother, he could have taken on that last name. Of course, Greg Mendel is obvious alias-material as well, given that it is the name of a famous RL person.

What I want to know is who "Her" is yet on Mendel's phone. We assume it's a wife or girlfriend, but the writers are deliberately hiding who Mendel is talking to on the phone from time to time. Which, if it was just Random Wife is Random, they'd give a name to, presumably.

Anyway, I was so pleased with his development in this episode. He didn't scare me before with his presence threatening Storybrooke's hiddenness, he was just sort of an irritant who promised a third season arc. Now he has a personal agenda, and that makes him interesting.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I had to go look up who Greg Mendel was - apparently the founder of genetics?
These writers like to do that - they did that on LOST as well, using names of real life people in a metaphorical context. It's actually one of the things I loved about LOST and adore about OUAT. It's subtle at times..like James Whale and Neal Cassiday. You sort of have to know who the person is - to catch the reference. I'm not quite catching it with Gregor Mendel..but I'm not a scientist.

What I want to know is who "Her" is yet on Mendel's phone. We assume it's a wife or girlfriend, but the writers are deliberately hiding who Mendel is talking to on the phone from time to time. Which, if it was just Random Wife is Random, they'd give a name to, presumably.

Interesting. What popped into my head was Bae's girlfriend/fiancee...although that would be too neatly coincidental.
He clearly has a partner. Someone who is helping him outside of Storybrook and who he is sending the photos to. Question is who and why they are helping him? It could be rather innocuous in that it's just his girlfriend.
But these writers like to connect the dots and hate coincidences.

Anyway, I was so pleased with his development in this episode. He didn't scare me before with his presence threatening Storybrooke's hiddenness, he was just sort of an irritant who promised a third season arc. Now he has a personal agenda, and that makes him interesting.

Oh, agree! I thought exactly the same thing...ahah...things just got more interesting. This is far more interesting than some random guy stumbling on Storybrook and turning it into a sideshow (been there done that), now we have a character with an actual reason for being there and who the writers have managed to make sympathetic to the audience.

He serves two purposes - underlines what Regina has done and the consequences of those actions to Regina and those outside of her, and the consequences of placing a whole town magically in our world. (Another thing I liked about LOST was it dealt with the consequences of doing these sort of things...or the domino effect.)

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Okay that explains why he took a picture of Henry's back-pack. Good catch.
And it makes sense he'd call the number on the pack - because the kid looks like he is either running away or up to no good.

No, I don't think he saw Regina or knew who she was - until the final scene, where he's standing outside her house and watching her torture Snow White.

I also wouldn't be surprised if Owen's blocked a lot of what happened to him back then. He's probably had years not only of...I'm assuming foster care, unless he had family to raise him, which doesn't seem likely...but also probably being told he was crazy, with his stories of his dad vanishing into a town that didn't exist, then did, then disappeared again. I could see him spending years possibly convincing himself it wasn't true and suppressing a lot of it.

I'd agree. Also these are LOST's writers and Buffy/Dollhouse writers...it's not like they haven't done that story thread before. So it makes sense they'd go that route.

It's certainly well set up in the flashback - with Owen trying to convince the police that his father disappeared in a town that does not exist.
(Reminds me of a Twilight Zone episode and was very creepily done, also well-done.) So yeah, I can see him suppressing, but also secretly searching for the town and for answers. I don't think Owen/Greg Mendel coming to Storybrook was an accident.

[masqthephlsphr.livejournal.com]

A Twilight Zone-esque episode. Yes, it really does. And also, the horror movie trope of wandering into the small town that seems normal and friendly initially and ending up in hands of a Scary Crazy Person.

[ponygirl2000.livejournal.com]

I still want an answer to the town's supply issues though! Clearly there's some interaction with the outside world if they have newspapers and the mechanic can order parts.

I don't see how Regina's going to come back from what she did to Owen - that sort of went beyond fairytale violence into something genuinely creepy. It reminded me a bit of A Midsummer's Night's Dream with Titania stealing human children, but wow, it was very disturbing. I hope Greg/Owen isn't made into some sort of evil villain looking to destroy everyone and instead gets some actual justice against Regina.

(friendly btw: I believe "gypped" has its origins as an ethnic slur...)

[masqthephlsphr.livejournal.com]

I believe "gypped" has its origins as an ethnic slur...

Oh, absolutely. I saw how gypsies were regarded when I was in Rome.

On the resupply question, I think, via the curse, the town reset itself every day and all the supplies returned unused. That takes care of the first 28 years. Now we just have to figure out how the town got resupplied after Emma showed up, and how it is supplied now.

Regina's treatment of Owen says a lot about her. You see now the very image of an abused child in an adult's body, and it's sad, but it gives her layers.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

While I am embarrassed to admit that I had to look the word "gypped" up on the internet to figure out what the heck ponygirl was talking about. This is hours before I read your response.

Sigh. Too many frigging words to keep track of. My boss has a hissy fit if I use the word "believe" instead of "think" (I kid you not), while people at church have a hissy fit if I say "black and white" instead of "cut and dry"...now apparently I need to use the word "cheated" over "gypped"....this is why I'm not eager to learn more languages...English is bothersome enough. Jeeze. People are awfully bureaucratic when it comes to words, aren't they? And they say lawyers are insanely pedantic about this sort of thing - I beg to differ.


Now we just have to figure out how the town got resupplied after Emma showed up, and how it is supplied now.


I'm still working on that one. It's possible that they don't have to...since they may be self-sustaining? Or...much like other fantasy television series it's probably best not to worry about these sort of things and just handwave them.

Regina's treatment of Owen says a lot about her. You see now the very image of an abused child in an adult's body, and it's sad, but it gives her layers.

Oh it certainly does...although I don't know if being abused by Cora excuses Regina's actions.

I think Regina's problem is partly that she's never allowed herself to truly hold her mother responsible. Instead she keeps transferring the blame. She needed Cora to love her, to be proud of her...and the only way she felt she could accomplish that was to become her mother. Her mother did a great mind-fuck on Regina. Twisted everything around in Regina's head.

In some respects mental abuse is far more destructive than physical abuse.
With physical abuse - people see the bruises, it's to the body. Mental abuse affects personality, it molds and changes you. Snow White was able to avoid some of it - because she had Eva and to a degree her father prior to Regina and Cora's arrival. But Snow was also the product of abuse - which explains her reactions to things as well, and why she, like Regina, could not kill Regina any more than Regina could kill Cora or Snow White. There's a really screwed up love/hate connection going on there.


At any rate, Regina appears to be completely oblivious or unself-aware. She really doesn't see what she was doing to Owen or Henry for that matter as being abusive or harmful. From her perspective she was only helping them and loving them. She honestly does not understand why they don't want to be with her. It makes no sense to her. Occassionally, she gets a tweak or too of insight - like in this episode when she pulled back and did not force either boy to be with her. But, then she takes two steps backwards - by threatening and/or harming their beloved family member in a manner that they are unlikely to look past. It's weird, because you'd think she'd understand - after all she hates Snow for taking her "mom" who she hated away from her, wouldn't she realize that Henry and Owen would feel the same way? But she's so internally focused, that she's oblivious to it.

[atpo-onm.livejournal.com]

I still want an answer to the town's supply issues though! Clearly there's some interaction with the outside world if they have newspapers and the mechanic can order parts.

I think that the appearance of the "loop" does not mean that this would necessarily be the same kind of loop as in Groundhog Day. I noticed that too, about the mechanic being able to order parts. The loop can't be entirely closed if that's possible.

My guess (or if I was writing this aspect of the show) is that the loop is much like a looping subroutine in a computer program-- most of them have conditionals attached to them, so that the loop can be modified or exited, or call another subroutine.

So the basic Storybrook loop runs until come condition needs to be achieved-- for example, a mechanic needs to order some parts from the outside world. The magic that sustains the town would then allow that to modify the loop, but not more than needed.

It also means that things could, and likely would change over time, just very, very slowly as long as nothing requires a radical change, such as calling another major subroutine.

For example, Henry-- and later Emma.

If you look at the creation of the town by magic in terms of the magic being the execution of a program, it would need to be very sophiticated and flexible. Otherwise, how does one explain how the FTL people suddenly convert to 21st century personailites and abilities? The magic would effectively have to draw on those elements from outside in order to do that. If it can do something that involved, ordering parts for a mechanic would be easy.

[masqthephlsphr.livejournal.com]

Heck of a reality rewrite pulled off by a woman who, prior to doing the trick, couldn't have known that much about Our World.

*waves wand of TeeVee Magick*

[buffyannotater.livejournal.com]

Or, rather, he hadn't seen her in person before the end of the episode.

[masqthephlsphr.livejournal.com]

That makes sense, because if Mendel knew who Henry's mother was earlier, he would doubtless have seen himself running away in Henry's actions. Mendel is now in a unique position to understand what Henry's life has been like.

Although there is one person who should Get It, or close to it, and that's Neal. It's annoyed me that Neal just seems like a background prop in these post-Manhattan episodes. His reaction to Rumple dying was very real, but I wanted to see something in his face when he saw his own son trying to get rid of magic because of its effect on his elders. That should hit him where he lives.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

It would only take a few seconds, and now the opportunity for it is past. She HAS to know by now, and know Henry's dad is Gold's son. But not a blip about it, even though that would intensify her rivalry with Rumplestiltskin by leaps and bounds (and should have been mentioned in that crypt scene between them).

I kept waiting for that to get a better reference. The whole episode seemed to be unduly centered on Regina and Snow White's battle and Regina's attempt to be happy and get vengeance on Snow White. So that the other characters, Charming, Emma, and Bae were more or less sidelined. That was my one big quibble with the episode.

While I'm willing to believe to an extent that Regina's universe revolves around two people - Henry and Snow White, and everyone else is mainly window dressing...this is getting ridiculous.

Although...shipper frustration aside, it is sort of interesting the degree to which Regina is obsessed with both. Snow is, after all or at least in some respects, Regina's daughter. Regina raised Snow, not Eva - who died when Snow was quite young. Note how they've gone out of their way to show that. Cora and Regina raised Snow, not her biological parents. (How Snow escaped following in either's footsteps is intriguing...and evidence that you do not have to become nasty just because you were abused. I give the writers credit for demonstrating that. ) And of course Henry is the replacement for her father, who never abused her, and was kind and loving - the man she sacrificed to destroy Snow.

So...Regina has serious Mommy and Daddy issues, doesn't she?

Snow - she is desperate to destroy, and oddly blames for everything her mother, Cora did. She's neatly transferred all her anger and rage towards Cora at Snow, her adopted daughter - who up until Snow's confidence in Cora regarding Daniel, Regina seemed to adore. Interesting - that it is Snow's confidence in Cora and what Cora does with that confidence that causes Regina to go into her down-ward spiral.

Henry - she is desperate to make love her. And she named him after her father, who she sacrificed to curse Snow. Henry...ironically is Snow White's biological grandchild.

The episode is after all in Regina's pov, or at least mainly, which may explain why the emphasis on Snow White and Henry.

Eh...I think I just fanwanked my major gripe with the episode. LOL!

It's no wonder Henry figured out something was seriously wrong. Imagine growing up in that atmosphere. It would be crazy-making. You would compare the world around you, replaying over and over, against the lives of people on television, where new events take place, and... wow.

Oh yeah. I can totally see why he hunted down Emma and brought her to Storybrook - even if she doesn't break the curse, at the very least things may change. Also can see why he keeps trying to tell her - "you don't understand, the moment I brought you here everything has changed, we're no longer caught in a Twilight Zone episode."

if Regina got bored of the reset within a short amount of time, why did it take her 18 years to adopt a child of her own?

Probably took her a while to figure out to do it. After-all she is cut off from the rest of the world and has little to no knowledge about how the LandWithoutMagic works. Plus, Mr. Gold doesn't remember anything. So she'd have to work at getting his help without cluing him in on what is happening.
Think of it like that film Ground-Hog Day or any number of tv shows who have done this trick - where you do something different each day, but then at the end of it - you've hit the reset button. So one day she asks Gold to procure the kid. But she waited too late, and he forgets about it. So she has to find a way to get him to do it that very day. Hee...Regina really did sentence herself to hell, didn't she? And she seems to be completely oblivious to it.

Got to give the writer's some credit for coming up with an innovative new twist on what I've begun to consider a television cliche or the dreaded loop episode. The only other show that did an interesting twist on this time-worn cliche was Buffy with Life Serial.

[masqthephlsphr.livejournal.com]

Fan-wanked it you may have done, but the quibble remains. Three episodes have passed since Manhattan, and Neal has been plot-driven in all of them rather than character-driven. Except for the moment he's mourning his father's impending passing, all the motives we know he must have or processed over the years since he was that 14-year old boy are not shown on his face, or in his brief dialogue. He could be the Any Dad, or the Any Ex.

Okay, this is just me being mopey, I know. Limited screen time, yada, yada. There are five more episodes this season.

I look forward to more Old!Storybrooke flashbacks, especially the Adopt-a-Kid episode (please?).

SelenaK's theory is that Mr. Gold got his memory back the day he first met Emma face-to-face. But maybe it clicked in earlier, enabling him to finagle getting the savior's son to Storybrooke? Or perhaps Henry's arrival in Storybrooke was as much Fate as Henry's parents meeting in the first place....

[atpo-onm.livejournal.com]

(Regina) is definitely all about control. That much is evident. She tries to control Flynn and Owen and that leads to her undoing. It's her biggest flaw. Her mother's was power. Regina's is control.

Of course having power enables one to have control-- one tends to beget the other, and in the show, metaphorically, Cora begets Regina.

I'd be interested on your thoughts aas to what I see as Snow White's major flaw, which is her tendency to (selectively) see things in a black & white, good vs. evil manner. We've seen her fight in the past in the fairytale world, so she seems to be okay with killing as long as it's in the context of group fighting/warmaking. Yet she agonizes over killing Cora, who pretty much needed to be killed for the sake of everybody else in Storybrooke (and possibly, in future-- the rest of the world?)

It could be easily argued that Regina is next in line for being ended, but since Regina has been presented as being a victim of both her mother and Rumple, we are meant to feel sympathy for her and hope that in the end, she'll finally wise up, stop whining, and "cut her losses" as Rumple sensibly advised.

So what does Snow do? "Kill me, Regina! End this, for everyone's sake!"

Oh, Snow, Snow... Are you supposed to be Jesus or something? Die for Regina's sins? Get real, please. Do you think Henry would be happy if Regina killed you, even if you asked her to? That trick only works if your enemy is rational, and sees your offered sacifice as proof of sincerity. All your effort did was provide your enemy a way to torture you (and likely others) some more.

And who asked you to? Yes, there's darkness in you, Snow, just like in everyone. Your name is not what you are, get over it.

Sidebar-- as this series unfolds, is anyone else seeing Regina as a character analog to Faith in the Buffyverse?

[buffyannotater.livejournal.com]

Oh, Snow, Snow... Are you supposed to be Jesus or something? Die for Regina's sins? Get real, please.

I don't think this was supposed to be an act of self-sacrifice to absolve sins. I think it is a result of Snow being severely depressed over her part in Cora's death. She doesn't know who she is anymore after betraying her own code, and I think she genuinely thinks at this moment in time that she deserves to die for killing Regina's mother. She wants her own pain and guilt to end, which is understandable but also, on the other hand, selfish--yet another sign of this darker side to Snow.

[masqthephlsphr.livejournal.com]

Absolutely. She thinks Regina wants her dead, and now she can't live with herself and wants to end this self-torment and think who better than the enemy who has no problem with killing if it suits her purposes (of course Regina rarely killed directly, she used hired killers, or killed from a distance, most of the time).

What Snow doesn't consider (but should) is that Regina *would* have killed her years ago if she *really* wanted to. A couple failed attempts does not giving up make. Her real agenda for decades now has been having Snow as tortured and miserable as she is. And now Regina's found a way to do that.

What's dumb about Regina is that, if Henry sees his grandmother miserable and slipping towards the dark side, who do you think he'll blame? Regina. Even if he's doubting his bio-family's heroism, he still blames *that* on Regina, too.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Would agree...I read it as feeling guilty for doing the deed. "I don't kill people". I'm not sure she felt guilty for Cora, so much as upset that she had killed someone. Worse - she had manipulated someone else into doing it. Which is why she asks Rumple how he lives with himself - because he does it all the time. And it also explains why she goes to Regina - Regina is the one she manipulated, the injured party and also the reason she had to do it. If Regina had listened, she, Snow, would not have had to do this.

It's what Henry states - "Snow doesn't do things like that." Both had their illusions kicked. It reminds me a little bit of that psychological study (the one where people are told to give someone a shock if they get answers wrong), and the people in the study go into it stating - "I'd never get off on torturing someone", "I'd never do that." And then of course they do it (not really - it was fake but they believe they are doing it) - and it causes them to question who they are. Many of the participants in the study had nervous breakdowns, because the discovery that they were capable of torturing someone else - was more than they could bear. Same thing happened with the Prison Study (which Veronica Mars actually did an episode around in its 3rd season) - where people discovered that they were capable of torturing others if put in the right situation and under the right circumstances. Discovering that side of yourself, that you are capable of horrible things...is not an easy thing to deal with. None of us particularly like looking in the mirror and seeing Mr. Hyde starring back at us.

And I think that's what the writers are examining with Snow White...her discovery that she is capable of horrible things. Before in FTL - when she tried to kill Regina - she could blame the spell or curse but here, she can only blame herself. Rumplestilskin may have given her the idea, but she made the choice.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

'd be interested on your thoughts aas to what I see as Snow White's major flaw, which is her tendency to (selectively) see things in a black & white, good vs. evil manner. We've seen her fight in the past in the fairytale world, so she seems to be okay with killing as long as it's in the context of group fighting/warmaking. Yet she agonizes over killing Cora, who pretty much needed to be killed for the sake of everybody else in Storybrooke (and possibly, in future-- the rest of the world?)

It's a children's book way of looking at the world. As masqu's points out further below, in the first season they emphasize the whole "good always wins over evil" and at the beginning of this season, both Snow and Henry with twinkling eyes go on about how "good guys win over evil". It's a very niave and innocent way of seeing the world. Also keep in mind Snow gave Henry the storybook.."Once Upon a Time".

Snow's beginning to discover it's not that simple. In FTL - she never killed Regina or Cora. She wanted to at times, but was either stopped by Charming or stopped herself. So part of it - is the whole "the heroes never kill the bad guys" trope which graces most superhero stories. If you do, you blacken your heart.

Buffy had the same trope by the way - when Giles states that he has to kill Ben, because Buffy is the hero and heroes don't kill people like Ben or Warren for that matter. It's morality line that grace's our stories. Lost had a similar concept --- Jack wasn't permitted to kill Ben nor was Sawyer.
You don't kill the enemy. Or manipulate for their death to occur, only the bad-guys do that.

But in OUAT...Snow White...used the candle to kill Cora. It's ironic, because in the previous episode's flashback, Cora attempts to manipulate Snow into killing Johanna to save her Mom from the poison. (I don't know what Cora had against poor Johanna.) She states when she attempts manipulate her - that it will turn her heart as dark as coal. It's the fairytale, story perspective...hero kills they live with it. Note that they've cleverly avoided having Emma kill anyone. The only people who have killed so far were Rumple, Regina, Cora, and Hook...

So having Snow do it - rips the rug out from under the audience, Snow, and Henry - it changes things. This is no longer a children's story, where the good guy's wear white hats and bad guys wear black hats and we all live happily ever after. It never was. There's sly references to that throughout the first season.

I think that is where they are going with it.

While I admittedly liked Faith better, Regina is a more layered character in part because she is one of the leads and not a supporting. We get to know more about her.

[masqthephlsphr.livejournal.com]

It's a bold move on the writers' part because it not only throws Snow off her game, it throws the audience out of their expectations for the show.

The audience is being forced to grow up at the same time Henry is.

Not that we don't expect bad things to happen to good people--good lord, we were all school on BtVS--but this show seemed to have a subtext as well as a text of Good Wins. And you know, it probably will, in the end. But not without a LOT of bruises. And that's more realistic. And more interesting.

[masqthephlsphr.livejournal.com]

Well, you were right about something as well, regarding the Outside World coming to Storybrooke being more of a season 2 thing than just a hint of a season 3 thing. Before they gave Mendel any personal motive for staying in town and poking around, he seemed only a distraction irrelevant to the arc of season 2. Now he has a potential role to play in the events occurring there, in Henry's arc, in Regina's. Doesn't mean they won't also do that as the main arc of season 3, but it does mean that if they do, it'll be a heck of a lot more interesting than just World Outside sees Storybrooke and Invades with Cameras or whatever.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I think S3 is going to be focused on escaping Storybrook for FTL. That's a just a guess. While this season has been focused on getting rid of magic - note that's what Henry keeps saying - if you don't use or have magic, everything will be okay - it's an echo of his father, Bae. He really is his father's son, isn't he? Reminds me a great deal of a young Baelfire and Henry's scenes with Regina in some respects echo Bae's with Rumplestilskin.

It's Emma who tells Henry in the episode that getting rid of magic won't solve things. That it isn't magic, it's who is using it (Regina). From Emma's perspective, Regina was problematic even without magic. And she's not wrong. But Henry, much like 10-14 year old Bae thought...hey if there was no magic things would be fine. Yet they weren't for Bae either - Rumplestilskin was constantly being beaten up and Baelfire was threatened...also his mother left him. His life wasn't much better without magic. IT's just how his father chose to use magic and what it did to him that made it worse.

But a child sees things simply...if you remove this, all will be well. Same as last year - Henry believed if you break the curse, we'll live happily ever after. Because that's what fairy tales do - you defeat the bad guy, all is well. Life isn't so easy.

[masqthephlsphr.livejournal.com]

It's a total echo of his father, and that's why I feel the "getting rid of magic won't solve anything" should have come from Neal, rather than Emma, because it doesn't make as much sense coming from her, whose experience with magic is recent and incomplete and really from the POV of a skeptic who probably should still agree with Henry's assessment to a greater degree.

I feel bad for Henry. The show was pushing the "good always wins" schtick last season and *this season*" without a blink or a sense of irony. And then they pulled the rug right out from beneath us. And more significantly Snow White and Henry. Both of them say with twinkling eyes, "Good always wins", Earlier This Season.

Rat bastard writers, anyway. LOL.