Welcome to Storybrook - OUAT - S2 tonight's episode

[shadowkat]

This season is so good, and tonight's episode was amongst the best. First off, I continue to adore you, Emma, you do everything I'd have done. And well, Regina or rather Whingina...karma, babe, it's a bitch and it's coming straight for you. Although this episode did a rather good job of layering the character.



Rather adored this episode, particularly the casting. Once Upon a Time unlike a lot of tv shows likes to cast a broad range of actors. Not just pretty people. It helps with the realism. Everything about this episode worked for me - this is how you do a story - you go with the characters, not the theme or the plot - you let the characters drive it.

Also, rather like the continued emphasis on parent/child relationships over romantic ones.

The opening act was great. We are back in time - 28 years ago, in 1983, and a boy and his Dad are camping in the Maine Woods, when all of a sudden they are beset by a violent electrical/magical storm. The place they'd driven through where nothing existed previously now has an entire town.
Flynn (who I like a lot) tells his son (Owen) - this is impossible - there was nothing here before.
And up pops Sheriff Graheam who asks them what they are doing here - and introduces them to Regina.

Regina who thinks, yay, I won, I successfully cursed everyone into a hellish version of Ground-hog Day. They do the same thing over and over again each day, but don't realize it. Each day - Gepetto is putting up his sign, each day Mary Margaret Blanchard visits charming and teaches her classes and runs into Regina. She always apologizes. And each day...Rumplestilskin walks by and sees Ruby standing outside the gate of the restaurant. Each day, Doctor Hopper says it is a beautiful day.
Regina controls everyone in the town. When she bumps into Mary Magaret, Mary apologizes and never fights back. Never argues. It's all rather boring and empty. Regina wonders, after she wakes up in bed with Graham, why she isn't happy.

So she calls Owen and Flynn, who she met at the restaurant. The boy who gave her a threaded ribbon in return for her letting him sit in her seat. She becomes enamored of the boy and wants him. She attempts to convince the father, Flynn, to stay in town, to move there. But he flatly turns her down - stating New Jersey is home. He'd only brought his kid here to help him get past his mother's death. The kid, hating NJ and the bullies in his school - in a weak moment confides this to Regina, and Regina thinks - ah, instant family, love, a little boy with unconditional love.
But Flynn refuses to comply. So she tries to force it. He tries to flee. She controls Graheam by telling his heart what to do. And sends Grahaem to capture Flynn and the kid. Flynn blocked from leaving Storybrook - tells Owen to run for his life. Owen refuses to go without Flynn but he does.
And Regina tries to stop him - stating - I just wanted you to be happy with me. And Owen states - "Not like this!" She takes Flynn away, leaving Owen alone.

This may be the worst thing she's ever done. And what happens with Henry in the present echoes it.
Because the present time plot-line is similar, Regina tries to get Henry to love her, and get her revenge at the same time. Rumplestilskin/Gold tries to tell Regina that her mistake is the same as her mother's she thinks she can have it all - revenge and Henry, power and love. You can't. It's one or the other. Cut your losses and move on. Rumple should take his own advice, and perhaps that's why he knows this - because he can't quite have Bae or Henry, because he can't quite give up the power and control either. Do as I say, not as I do. Kudos to Robert Carlyle for playing the layers.

At any rate... Regina decides to caste a curse on Henry, making him love her, making him want to stay with her - even after she takes vengeance on Snow. (seriously Reggie, haven't you figured out by now - that people often do themselves in? Like you? You're need for vengeance is merely rotting your own soul.)

To protect Henry and a guilt-ridden/bed-ridden Snow White who can't quite live with what she did. Because she manipulated her evil step-mother into killing her even more evil step-grandmother who has attempted to kill her or turn her evil on five occasions. Oh and managed to kill or manipulate her daughter into killing Snow's entire family. But hey, it was still wrong to manipulate Regina into killing the evil Cora...because it's not like Regina didn't try to do it when the evil Cora was attempting to come through the magical fountain earlier in the season or anything. I get the quilt. But seriously, Snow, it's not like you didn't give them a lot of get-out-of-jail free cards already.

When Rumple told us Regina (Whingina) plan - which was to curse Henry into loving her so she could finally get her vengeance on Snow White, by killing her - I thought, easy solution - have Bae take Henry back to NYC with him. Protects Henry. No curse. Also may teach Regina a lesson. Although ironically that's what happened with Owen - Flynn, his Dad, wanted to take him out of town.

Guess what, my girl Emma, comes up with that solution. God, I adore this character. She does exactly what I would do in these scenarios. She wants to tell Henry the truth. When Henry won't listen to her - she takes him to his Dad and has him tell Henry the plan - which is to go stay with Dad in NYC for a bit. Thank you, Emma. You are my favorite character right now. I love you.
Also loving Jennifer Morrison in the role, shocking I know, but there it is. [YMMV. Talk to the hand. ;-)]

Though Henry, who is definitely his father's son, takes off with plans of his own.

Emma: Wait, where is his back-pack?
Bae: I'm sure he's fine...
Emma: Are you kidding me? He's your son -
Bae: Oh shit.

Bae tried to tell him getting rid of magic won't work. But hey, why not try? I give Emma credit for figuring out that he'd do that...since he was constantly doing it last season. Seriously, someone needs to put a lock-jab on that kid. And I would ship him back to Manhattan, NY with Bae, right quick, regardless. Storybrook as long as there is magic and Regina, is not safe.

Also liked what Rumple stated - that the best solution is getting rid of Regina. Kill her, you solve all your problems. So true. Granted, you have to live with it - but hey, the alternative isn't much better.

Emma : You mean just kill her? Isn't there any other alternative?
Henry: You can't be discussing killing my Mom! You are supposed to be heroes.
Me: Kid, what stories have you been reading? Oh that's right you've been reading the Disney versions. Got it.

I like the fact that the writers are commenting on this in a sly way.

Meanwhile...Henry runs into the guy from the outside world, who appears to be staying way past his welcome. Both lie about what they are doing in the woods, and both realize that they are lying to each other. Henry tells the guy, who claims to be "hiking in the woods" that the trail is in the opposite direction, and the guy questions Henry's claim to be getting his merit badge.

Regina finds Henry at the magic fountain - attempting to blow it up. And she actually does try to listen to him. But she's so self-absorbed by what she wants, she doesn't quite hear him. Henry loves Regina, obviously, but he also loves his family. She wants to have Henry and get vengeance on his family - and he says doesn't want that.

Regina: I just want us to be happy.
Henry: Not this way.
(an echo of Owen, which causes Regina to pause).

She stops him from blowing himself up. But she can't get rid of her magic. She does however compromise and burn up the curse. Not giving into the temptation.

Meanwhile...Snow White asks Rumplestilskin how he lives with himself, with all the horrible things he's done, and Rumple says, you tell yourself enough times that you did the right thing, you begin to believe it. Yet, Rumple, much like Regina, still refuses to do anything for anyone out of the kindness of his heart or empathy, there's always a deal involved or he has to be prodded into it.
Here - all he will do is provide information and he does it reluctantly, regardless of his family's involvement.

Both Rumple and Regina can't quite get past themselves and their own desires and needs long enough to care about anyone else. There's also a great scene between Rumple and Regina, where he tells her that enacting the curse out of vengeance did not make anything better and just left a hole in her heart, and she says, it wasn't her curse - it was his. Yes, he agrees, but you were the one who chose to enact it, not I. Rumple is a master at manipulating others into doing his dirty work.
So it's fun to see Charming manipulate Rumple into helping them against his will.

When Regina finally gets her confrontation with Snow - Snow goes to Regina in the hopes that Regina will just kill her. And Regina rips out Snow's heart, only to discover a dark spot. And realizes killing Snow is the wrong approach. It's better to let Snow destroy herself with her own guilt. Stating the darkness will only grow and Snow will lose everything, and Regina will gain it all and finally win.

We get a final flashback of Owen...in 1983, standing outside Storybrook, with the police, hunting his Dad. But Regina has camouflaged the town. He can't see anything and neither can the cops. She stands on the other side of the magical wall watching, teary-eyed, wishing she could have Owen, not realizing that what she took from him is not something he'll ever forgive her for. This is similar to Henry...she's right, Henry will never forgive her if she deprives him of his family, just as Owen never would.

Back to present day...the guy from the outside the world has just taken pictures of Regina ripping out Snow's heart and re-inserting it. And we learn who that guy is, and exactly why he is sticking around...turns out he is the grown-up version of Owen, and he's looking for his Dad, Flynn. He's also compiling information on Regina and Storybrook. This is a great twist, I figured it out five minutes before it was revealed, but great twist and lovely way to ironically kick Regina. She basically created her own enemy. And it is a reflection of what Henry could become...


I love the themes...how vengence doesn't work, killing or destroying your enemy hurts you even more...each person you kill taints your own heart, leaving a hole behind. It's similar to Harry Potter. Violence leaves a mark on our souls.

Also Emma's question - isn't there another way? And Henry echoes this...why can't we just do away with magic and even the playing field - a view that his father shares. Magic in of itself is not bad - Regina makes the dynamite disappear, but when used in the way that Regina and Cora use it - it is.

I still feel a bit gypped by the whole lack of Bae/Emma discussion on the fiancee, and the whole Regina/Emma/Bae bit on ...wait, Baelfire is Henry's father, and Rumplestilskin is the grandfather?
I know she knows, but she doesn't appear to care all that much or even blink. It's grating.
I wanted that reaction damn-it. I'm a bit tired of the whole will Regina kill Snow or not. (Although I think that bit is finally over with.) And Regina whining about her lot in life - is also a bit old - honey, you made your bed, you get to sleep in it. I feel no sympathy for you.
And this episode really didn't change that. She's still Whingina. I'm hoping the adult version of Owen knocks her socks off...or at least gives Regina a reality check - ie, the world does not revolve around you. I get why Henry thinks it revolves around him - he is actually just a kid.
I can cut him some slack. Regina on the other hand...needs to stop acting like a 10 year old who isn't getting her way.

She is definitely all about control. That much is evident. She tries to control Flynn and Owen and that leads to her undoing. It's her biggest flaw. Her mother's was power. Regina's is control. I rather like the fact that we have women characters falling into this trap. Regina is more up front and physical with her power, while Rumplestilskin is more manipulative. Regina wants to hurt and control people herself and gets caught, while Rumple manipulates others into doing it. He created the curse and manipulated Regina into using it. Just as he created the death candle and manipulated Snow White into using it to save his life and kill Cora. He manages to skirt the blame, by manipulating others to do the deed. Even in his discussion with Charming and Snow - he lets Snow take all the blame, as he does with Regina and the curse. Slipping around it. Nor does he appear to care about the consequences or the effects on his son or grandson.

While I feel a bit gypped, the episode was admittedly a good one, it furthered the plot and the characters arcs, it also furthered the subplot and provided an interesting reveal.

Oh, and I saw the previews for next week - so I know what I felt gypped on will be addressed in next week's episode. And yes, Masq, you were right...and I was wrong, about the importance of the fiancee...she's not just a walk-on character - if the previews for next week are any indication.
This isn't exactly a spoiler - since, the previews are misleading. This episode surprised me, it wasn't at all what I thought it would be.

They also answered a few questions I had regarding Storybrook.

1. The outside world could visit, but Regina set it up so that they couldn't see the town and no one could enter the town nor did anyone know it existed. Flynn and Owen only found it, because they were already there when Regina enacted the curse and sent FTL to Maine.

2. Time literally doesn't advance. The same day is repeated ad naseum in Ground-Hog Day fashion. (A movie with Bill Murray, where he is forced to repeat the same day but is the only who knows it.) Here, Regina is the only one who knows she's repeating the same day, and when she adopts Henry, he's the only one who knows it. It's not until Emma arrives that the days advance and aren't in an eternal loop.

Rather clever that. I'd wondered. Also...it demonstrates that Regina in enacting her revenge, sentenced herself to a living hell. Everyone else is oblivious. So in a way, Regina's hell is worse than their's - nice metaphor that...because the person who enacts vengeance or hates destroys themselves. (See Macbeth and Hamlet).

Oh, I'm beginning to adore this show.

Comments

[atpo-onm.livejournal.com]

(Regina) is definitely all about control. That much is evident. She tries to control Flynn and Owen and that leads to her undoing. It's her biggest flaw. Her mother's was power. Regina's is control.

Of course having power enables one to have control-- one tends to beget the other, and in the show, metaphorically, Cora begets Regina.

I'd be interested on your thoughts aas to what I see as Snow White's major flaw, which is her tendency to (selectively) see things in a black & white, good vs. evil manner. We've seen her fight in the past in the fairytale world, so she seems to be okay with killing as long as it's in the context of group fighting/warmaking. Yet she agonizes over killing Cora, who pretty much needed to be killed for the sake of everybody else in Storybrooke (and possibly, in future-- the rest of the world?)

It could be easily argued that Regina is next in line for being ended, but since Regina has been presented as being a victim of both her mother and Rumple, we are meant to feel sympathy for her and hope that in the end, she'll finally wise up, stop whining, and "cut her losses" as Rumple sensibly advised.

So what does Snow do? "Kill me, Regina! End this, for everyone's sake!"

Oh, Snow, Snow... Are you supposed to be Jesus or something? Die for Regina's sins? Get real, please. Do you think Henry would be happy if Regina killed you, even if you asked her to? That trick only works if your enemy is rational, and sees your offered sacifice as proof of sincerity. All your effort did was provide your enemy a way to torture you (and likely others) some more.

And who asked you to? Yes, there's darkness in you, Snow, just like in everyone. Your name is not what you are, get over it.

Sidebar-- as this series unfolds, is anyone else seeing Regina as a character analog to Faith in the Buffyverse?

[buffyannotater.livejournal.com]

Oh, Snow, Snow... Are you supposed to be Jesus or something? Die for Regina's sins? Get real, please.

I don't think this was supposed to be an act of self-sacrifice to absolve sins. I think it is a result of Snow being severely depressed over her part in Cora's death. She doesn't know who she is anymore after betraying her own code, and I think she genuinely thinks at this moment in time that she deserves to die for killing Regina's mother. She wants her own pain and guilt to end, which is understandable but also, on the other hand, selfish--yet another sign of this darker side to Snow.

[masqthephlsphr.livejournal.com]

Absolutely. She thinks Regina wants her dead, and now she can't live with herself and wants to end this self-torment and think who better than the enemy who has no problem with killing if it suits her purposes (of course Regina rarely killed directly, she used hired killers, or killed from a distance, most of the time).

What Snow doesn't consider (but should) is that Regina *would* have killed her years ago if she *really* wanted to. A couple failed attempts does not giving up make. Her real agenda for decades now has been having Snow as tortured and miserable as she is. And now Regina's found a way to do that.

What's dumb about Regina is that, if Henry sees his grandmother miserable and slipping towards the dark side, who do you think he'll blame? Regina. Even if he's doubting his bio-family's heroism, he still blames *that* on Regina, too.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

What Snow doesn't consider (but should) is that Regina *would* have killed her years ago if she *really* wanted to. A couple failed attempts does not giving up make. Her real agenda for decades now has been having Snow as tortured and miserable as she is. And now Regina's found a way to do that.

I put that down to Wile E Coyote and the Road Runner trope (which ahem, Merlin has been doing for two seasons with Morgana and Arthur), but you may have a point. Regina wants Snow to suffer. She doesn't really want to kill her...and why may be more complex than it appears. I don't know. I hope it is at any rate. ;-) At the moment it appears to be simply that death is too easy - which is what she states here. In way, Regina seems to want to recreate a mirror image of herself. I'm miserable, you will be too. Or better yet, we'll change places - I'll get your life and you'll get mine.
Which she keeps trying to make happen but never quite works. Last year she tried it with David (before the curse was broken) and this year she's trying it with Henry again.

I can't quite decide what motivates her more at the moment - her need to make Snow miserable or to have Henry love her and fill her emptiness? She wants both, but both isn't quite possible. And she is really desperate for love - so desperate that she destroyed Owen's life to attempt to get it, and has almost destroyed Henry's. I'm not sure she understands what love is or how to obtain it. Mainly because she's never quite had it herself. The closest she came to it was Daniel...and he was ripped from her.

[masqthephlsphr.livejournal.com]

She wants both, but both isn't quite possible.

Which is the exact point Rumple was trying to make in the crypt scene. You can have your vengeance, or Henry's love, but not both. You'll have to do what your mother did when she ripped out her own heart: sacrifice one of the things you want in order to get the other.

Regina still thinks she can have both.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Would agree...I read it as feeling guilty for doing the deed. "I don't kill people". I'm not sure she felt guilty for Cora, so much as upset that she had killed someone. Worse - she had manipulated someone else into doing it. Which is why she asks Rumple how he lives with himself - because he does it all the time. And it also explains why she goes to Regina - Regina is the one she manipulated, the injured party and also the reason she had to do it. If Regina had listened, she, Snow, would not have had to do this.

It's what Henry states - "Snow doesn't do things like that." Both had their illusions kicked. It reminds me a little bit of that psychological study (the one where people are told to give someone a shock if they get answers wrong), and the people in the study go into it stating - "I'd never get off on torturing someone", "I'd never do that." And then of course they do it (not really - it was fake but they believe they are doing it) - and it causes them to question who they are. Many of the participants in the study had nervous breakdowns, because the discovery that they were capable of torturing someone else - was more than they could bear. Same thing happened with the Prison Study (which Veronica Mars actually did an episode around in its 3rd season) - where people discovered that they were capable of torturing others if put in the right situation and under the right circumstances. Discovering that side of yourself, that you are capable of horrible things...is not an easy thing to deal with. None of us particularly like looking in the mirror and seeing Mr. Hyde starring back at us.

And I think that's what the writers are examining with Snow White...her discovery that she is capable of horrible things. Before in FTL - when she tried to kill Regina - she could blame the spell or curse but here, she can only blame herself. Rumplestilskin may have given her the idea, but she made the choice.

[masqthephlsphr.livejournal.com]

I am glad it was a choice, and not a cop-out "under a spell" thing like they did on Merlin when they had Gwen cheat on Arthur with Lancelot. Sometimes, you have to push your good characters to places they, and the audience, don't think they'll go. And give them GOOD reasons to do it, reasons that are narratively convincing. I read lots of fans cheering Snow on prior to her actually taking part in Cora's death. A "total war" chorus of "Someone has to kill her. That's not wrong in these circumstances, it's dumb to do otherwise!"*

But it's not *that* simple, either. I am curious where this storyline will take Snow, and Henry, in the days and years to come, because their reactions to the circumstances of Cora's death are as genuine as Snow's choice to do the deed, and the writers will have to supply a convincing healing process (or lack thereof).

*There was a guy named Max on ATPo back in the Season 2 Angel days who used to vociferously defend Angel's actions towards Wolfram and Hart--fighting them with their own tactics with the wine cellar slaughter etc--with his discussions of "Total War" and links to the original Star Trek episode, "the Savage Curtain," where the moral of the story was apparently that the only difference between good and evil should be not the means but the ends.

Angel had to go through a real process to find his way out of that commando period, to find a compromise attitude that was neither naive good nor "means justify the ends." So, I think, will Snow.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

*There was a guy named Max on ATPo back in the Season 2 Angel days who used to vociferously defend Angel's actions towards Wolfram and Hart--fighting them with their own tactics with the wine cellar slaughter etc--with his discussions of "Total War" and links to the original Star Trek episode, "the Savage Curtain," where the moral of the story was apparently that the only difference between good and evil should be not the means but the ends.

Oh dear. I think he was on the board in Angel S4 and Buffy S7 too.
I vaguely remember someone like that. The Machivellian perspective or more likely an 18 year old who has discovered Machivelli's The Prince for the very first time.

The world unfortunately is not that cut and dry or simple. And the ends only justify the means for folks like Max, when he's not on the receiving end of the means...then of course it's a whole different story.

No, as happy as I am that Cora is gone, I do agree...the way Snow did it was...pretty dark and twisted.

I am glad it was a choice, and not a cop-out "under a spell" thing like they did on Merlin when they had Gwen cheat on Arthur with Lancelot.

So agree. I despise that trope. It's popular with comic books and I blame the comic book medium for it. Oh, no, I was under a spell or possessed, so it wasn't really my fault. Sigh. Whedon did this a lot on Buffy and Angel, actually, and I found it annoying. Angel was a far more interesting character on his own series - when the writers made it clear that he was at fault for what he did. I love the scene in S3 where he makes it clear to Wes that it's Angel, not Angelus that is about to smother him. Same with Willow...oh it was the dark magic. Sigh.

What I like about OUAT, is when Henry says its the magic that is making everyone do bad things, Emma makes it clear that magic isn't the problem. That it is Regina not the magic. Just as it was Snow and Rumple - not the magic. The magic was only a means to an end.

A story is so much more interesting, not to mention realistic and relateable when the writer does not let the characters off the hook.
If you are going to have this character do something horrible - give them a realistic and relateable motivation and then follow through. Don't white-wash the character - it belittles the story, the character, and the audience. Too often writers do that - they hunt the get-out-of-jail free card - they have their character do this horrible thing, and then they don't show the consequences to that character - how that horrible thing affects the character, the characters relationships, and the characters choices. I'm not asking for redemption per se, I'm asking for examination. Show don't tell.

I think OUAT may be going that route, LOST to be fair sort of did...so I have hopes.


I read lots of fans cheering Snow on prior to her actually taking part in Cora's death. A "total war" chorus of "Someone has to kill her. That's not wrong in these circumstances, it's dumb to do otherwise!"*

True. But Cora was admittedly a despicable character. Killing her was akin to well...killing Angelus, Spike, Drusilla, Darla, Glory or The Master. That's not to say however...that the way they went about it was necessarily a good and healthy choice.

It's a complicated moral guagmire. Similar in some respects to what the US did with Osma Bin Laden.

Is it right to execute people? As Emma states - "you want to kill her? Isn't there another option? There has to be?" Taking a life any life is final. There's no coming back from it. You aren't giving that person a chance...and you do not know what that person might have done down the road that might have been good or beneficial. Because no one is just one thing - we are all capable of horrible and wonderful things. That said, it's really hard to apply that logic to people like Hitler, Terrorists, and serial killers. We sort of demonize them in our heads. And I think Snow had done that with Cora as had the audience.

I remember having lengthy debates with people on ATPO regarding Willow, Spike, Angel, Warren, and whether Giles should have killed Ben.
Sophist and I had a lot of fun...with those debates. We liked to debate who should be granted amnesty and who should be executed.

[atpo-onm.livejournal.com]

Taking a life any life is final. There's no coming back from it. You aren't giving that person a chance...and you do not know what that person might have done down the road that might have been good or beneficial. Because no one is just one thing - we are all capable of horrible and wonderful things. That said, it's really hard to apply that logic to people like Hitler, Terrorists, and serial killers.

One of the many ways this show is continuing to endear itself to me is the subtlety it's bringing to issues such as this.

While I think there are probably very few people who would argue that Cora didn't deserve to die, implying that she was probably irredeemable, Regina is still seen as someone who could change, and that such is the critical difference-- after all, she is responsible for a great deal of suffering and also several deaths, so why not just kill her too?

Regina seems to me as if she has multiple personality disorder, brought on by the conflict with her mother who she dearly wants to love, and be loved by in return, but is then confronted with the evil that her mother seems to perform not only routinely, but without apparent regard for anyone but herself, although she lies and professes otherwise (exactly as many pathologically pyschotic individuals do). I think her mind may have snapped long ago, back when her mother killed her lover ("But I did it for you, dear! So you can become Queen, as you rightly deserve!")

The scene in the last episode with Snow is revealing as to that state of mind-- or minds-- one the one hand, why shouldn't she just kill Snow? She doesn't, claiming it's better to have her suffer. Logical, or is there the other personality that loves Snow, or at least respects her? Is it an excuse?

There still seems to be at least some connection between the two personalities. If that connection is ever severed, I think Snow would be dead-- and maybe a lot of other people-- the first time some trigger pulls that personality to the forefront.

Emma would certainly understand MPD. I doubt there was any such concept in FTL. People assume that it will be Henry that will ultimately save Regina, if such happens (I'm betting it will). But I don't think so. I think it will be Emma that saves Regina, and a metaphor presented that the world they are living in now is really a better one than the one that they left.

It's so easy to forget that with all the terrible things that still go on in the world today, that overall, compared to even a few hundred years ago, that we are a far more moral/ethical people than we were before, by a substantial amount. I personally wouldn't want to live in FTL, and the whole kings/queens thing? No way, thank you kindly.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Yes, but it is easier to tell these stories behind the veil of science fiction or fantasy. You can use metaphors...to provide a moral lesson, it's more subtle, less preachy, and easier for audiences to digest.

[masqthephlsphr.livejournal.com]

Some fans are still a bit ticked that Snow feels guilty for her part in Cora's death at all. I think it's not the fact of participating that is the cause of Snow's guilt. If it was a straightforward battle like she's been in before, and Cora was killing her friends in front of her, Snow would have walked away from killing her without guilt about it. Or not much. It was the *way* it happened, being manipulated by Rumple into tricking Regina into killing her own mother. Knowing she did that with her eyes open to what he was doing.

Every time I watch Henry blame everything on magic's influence, I want to tell him, "it's not magic that's changed all the adults in your life, kid, it's YOU that's changed. You're growing up and seeing the world for what it really is. Shades of gray." Of course, that's not 100% the case, or his grandmother would not be in the state she's in. But it's a lot the case.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I was admittedly annoyed by her guilt at it - initially - but there's a reason for that, the episode demonstrated that Snow didn't have a lot of options. Also it was so well set up - for the audience's sympathy to be with Snow. They built that up well. With the flashback of Cora attempting to manipulate Snow into using the candle to trade Johanna's life for her mother's. And then Snow discovering Cora doing that - only to have Cora kill Johanna in front of her, after she traded the dagger for Johanna's life. Also all the things Snow tried to do instead of that, it's not like she didn't hunt another way first - she did. So from one point of view - she had no choice, there really was no other option.

But...

I think it's not the fact of participating that is the cause of Snow's guilt. If it was a straightforward battle like she's been in before, and Cora was killing her friends in front of her, Snow would have walked away from killing her without guilt about it. Or not much. It was the *way* it happened, being manipulated by Rumple into tricking Regina into killing her own mother.

Exactly. It's how she did it. The calculation involved. OR in legal terminology, malice a-fore-thought or premediated/planned murder, which is murder in the first degree, not the second. The distinction matters.

Every time I watch Henry blame everything on magic's influence, I want to tell him, "it's not magic that's changed all the adults in your life, kid, it's YOU that's changed. You're growing up and seeing the world for what it really is. Shades of gray."

Reminds me a little of that episode Lie to Me on BTVS - where Buffy asks Giles to lie to her, to make the world simple and black and white again. These frustrating shades of gray are difficult.

I think Henry's struggling with the same thing - but an earlier age. It's hard for Henry, much like Baelfire, to understand it's not the magic.

I loved Rumplestilskin in Manhattan. With or without magic, he's still dangerous. He still threatened Emma. He still threatened Henry. And he didn't have magic. Same deal in FTL, ill and sinking fast with no magic at his disposal, he still manipulates Snow into doing a horrific thing to save his life. And he manipulates her into taking the life of someone he allegedly loved or cared about.

But if Henry sees that...if he can't blame the magic...sort of loss of innocence - the world isn't simple...and things don't always work out well in the end.

[masqthephlsphr.livejournal.com]

My current end-of-the-season theory is that Henry isn't going to just accept that his heroes have flaws. He's too young. He's going to get disillusioned and run away. And then somehow, maybe due to Rumplestiltskin trying to get rid of him without murder, he's going to end up going through a portal. And since he is a run-away and lost, he'll end up in Neverland, home of the Lost Boys.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

You may be right...according to something I read the titles of the last two episodes are "Second Star to the Right", and "Straight on Til Morning".

Henry going by way of Peter Pan works metaphorically, and there have been allusions to it all year. Also...the promo for the season was Captain Hook's introduction. So we get Hook and Smee introduced in the first half, how much you want to bet Pan, Wendy, the Lost Boys, and Tinkerbell are introduced at the end?

Works metaphorically - "I never want to grow up, and adults are evil"
and literally with the story-thread.

It's sort of cool in a way. Love the mash-up.

[masqthephlsphr.livejournal.com]

Then his parents will have to go after her. Good thing Dad knows Neverland.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

'd be interested on your thoughts aas to what I see as Snow White's major flaw, which is her tendency to (selectively) see things in a black & white, good vs. evil manner. We've seen her fight in the past in the fairytale world, so she seems to be okay with killing as long as it's in the context of group fighting/warmaking. Yet she agonizes over killing Cora, who pretty much needed to be killed for the sake of everybody else in Storybrooke (and possibly, in future-- the rest of the world?)

It's a children's book way of looking at the world. As masqu's points out further below, in the first season they emphasize the whole "good always wins over evil" and at the beginning of this season, both Snow and Henry with twinkling eyes go on about how "good guys win over evil". It's a very niave and innocent way of seeing the world. Also keep in mind Snow gave Henry the storybook.."Once Upon a Time".

Snow's beginning to discover it's not that simple. In FTL - she never killed Regina or Cora. She wanted to at times, but was either stopped by Charming or stopped herself. So part of it - is the whole "the heroes never kill the bad guys" trope which graces most superhero stories. If you do, you blacken your heart.

Buffy had the same trope by the way - when Giles states that he has to kill Ben, because Buffy is the hero and heroes don't kill people like Ben or Warren for that matter. It's morality line that grace's our stories. Lost had a similar concept --- Jack wasn't permitted to kill Ben nor was Sawyer.
You don't kill the enemy. Or manipulate for their death to occur, only the bad-guys do that.

But in OUAT...Snow White...used the candle to kill Cora. It's ironic, because in the previous episode's flashback, Cora attempts to manipulate Snow into killing Johanna to save her Mom from the poison. (I don't know what Cora had against poor Johanna.) She states when she attempts manipulate her - that it will turn her heart as dark as coal. It's the fairytale, story perspective...hero kills they live with it. Note that they've cleverly avoided having Emma kill anyone. The only people who have killed so far were Rumple, Regina, Cora, and Hook...

So having Snow do it - rips the rug out from under the audience, Snow, and Henry - it changes things. This is no longer a children's story, where the good guy's wear white hats and bad guys wear black hats and we all live happily ever after. It never was. There's sly references to that throughout the first season.

I think that is where they are going with it.

While I admittedly liked Faith better, Regina is a more layered character in part because she is one of the leads and not a supporting. We get to know more about her.

[masqthephlsphr.livejournal.com]

It's a bold move on the writers' part because it not only throws Snow off her game, it throws the audience out of their expectations for the show.

The audience is being forced to grow up at the same time Henry is.

Not that we don't expect bad things to happen to good people--good lord, we were all school on BtVS--but this show seemed to have a subtext as well as a text of Good Wins. And you know, it probably will, in the end. But not without a LOT of bruises. And that's more realistic. And more interesting.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Quite true...also keep in mind that from the beginning they did that twist.
After all Ruby eats her boyfriend. And Snow White is a robber and thief in the forest - when Charming meets her, and the allegedly heroic James - who seems to be a wonderful guy when we first see him, turns out to be anything but in later episodes. Ditto on EVA...who as SelenaK noted in her commentary last week, appears to be the James Potter of the OUAT verse. She's a brat as a youngster, but kind as an adult. Regina is the opposite - kind as a youngster and a brat as an adult. Which is rather interesting actually.

OUAT also is a different genre than BTVS. BTVS was gothic horror with a few other genres thrown in for kicks, but mainly horror - so the writer always went for the horror. OUAT - tends to be more fantasy or fairy tale horror - which unlike gothic horror, tends to end happily, albeit with a twist. So, while it will get dark, I don't think it will get quite as dark as BTVS and ATS did. (OR at least I hope not...really don't want sexual violence, finding the apparent lack of sexual violence in this series to be refreshing actually.)