Ranking Buffy Episodes and the Relevance of Reviews and well ranking Buffy episodes...

[shadowkat]

So someone attempted to rank the Buffy episodes, all 144 of them. Go read and disagree at will, I certainly did, although I admittedly didn't post any comments - just did it in my head or here on my own lj : http://www.buzzfeed.com/louispeitzman/ranking-every-episode-of-buffy-the-vampire-slayer?bftw

The link basically proves something I've long suspected - these types of games tell people more about the people playing the game than about the show. Actually reviews in general tend to. For example? If a music reviewer scoffs or derides music that is not "classical" or "opera", you begin to think the person is a bit snooty and needs to lighten up and get out more. While a reviewer who only likes Katy Perry songs...comes across as...you fill in the blank. In short, we don't learn anything about the music - and just react to the reviewer's tastes.

Also, if the reviewer/ranker isn't careful they can turn you (the reader of the review) against a piece of music, a book, a movie or a tv series they adore - making you, the reader, despise it - having never ever seen it. (This sort of happened briefly for me in regards to Breaking Bad. People, in particular television critics, were so "obnoxious" in their adoration of it - stating it was BETTER than everything else, it was hard to like it. BB tended to bring out the asshole in their viewers/fans. Not sure why. 50 Shades of Grey had a similar effect, as did Twilight. Hype is not always a good thing.) It's weird when it happens. The opposite can happen as well - a reviewer will deride or rip apart a book or tv series - and in the process turn you on to it or make you so curious about it - you have to see it or read it. (See 50 Shades of Grey. It actually falls into both categories!) In short, reviewing is an odd occupation. Why we pay people to do it, I've no clue. Before the internet, it sort of made sense - because not everyone could post their opinion. You had to get a paper or magazine to employ you to post one. Now, however, why bother paying them? Do people like Robert Bianco, Alan Sepinwall, Owen Glieberman, Ken Tucker, etc...really need to be paid for just writing their opinions? Are their opinions any more relevant or interesting than those who aren't being paid?

Eh, I don't know. Sorry for the tangent. Distracting self from work-related stress.

Anywho..admittedly it's been a while since I've watched Buffy (last time was in 2009), and my tastes may have changed, since my obsession has definitely disappeared. That said, there are some headscratching moments on this person's list.

First off - I may be in the minority here? But I thought Beer Bad was a whole lot funnier than Gone, which felt sort of silly in places. And I'd certainly rank Smashed higher than Older and Far Away, Gone, and Doublemeat Palace. The ranker clearly despised Riley, yet for some reason did not rank As You Were third from last. Also they have an odd fondness for the First Evil and Amends.

Also...Chosen. Did Chosen make you cry? I didn't cry. My mother didn't cry. The guy I watched it with didn't cry. And we've been known to cry at Hallmark commercials...and Grey's Anatomy episodes. Yet, this ranker - saw it as a top episode and adored it, and it made them cry.

Clearly the ranker is a Faith, Spike and to a degree Angel fan. Also a Giles fan. Not so much a Xander or for that matter Riley fan (although to be fair neither got great episodes).

They did not like S4, S7, and S6. But adored S1 - Nightmares, Out of Sight Out of Mind, Witch are all ranked highly (yes, go figure) as is Doomed (which blew my mind). Although kudos that they admitted the rocket launcher tackle in HIM is comedy gold (it is). But seriously All the Way ranked higher than Never Leave Me, Beneath Me, and Smashed???

And dear lord, Family...? They stated that this was a good examination of how badly men treat women???? Oh dear. (Family is one big huge cliche after another, and preachy as all get out.) And they hated the Pack???

So, yes, some headscratching moments.

I'll do an abbreviated listing off the top of my head, because seriously 144 episodes takes way too much time. Also upon reading the below - keep in mind everything I said in the above half of the post...

Bottom ten:

Family (yes, the stereotypical redneck white trash family who is into the bible - Whedon your upper class prejudices are showing), Amends (it's magic Christmas snow...and sigh, the First EVIL! When this show was cheesy, it was REALLY cheesy), As You Were (here it's GI Joe and GI Jane but with less personality, return to save the day and teach everyone morality lessons), Teacher's Pet, I Robot You Jane, Go Fish, Wrecked (magic as crack - complete with crack den leader with a yen for molesting young women), Older and Far Away (pacing issues), Where the Wild Things Are (has similar issues to Family - apparently stereotypical bible thumping backwards fundamentalists are a recurring villain trope for Whedon series - found them in Firefly as well. Annoying. Not even the great Giles/Spike/Anya/Xander scenes could save it.), Some Assembly Required (too cheesy for words and Frankenstein for some reason is harder to pull off than it looks).

[Doomed is saved by the scenes with Spike, Willow and Xander - you just have to ignore the plot and Buffy/Riley. Beer Bad is saved by SMG's ability for comic timing and Xander/Giles who were hilarious in the episode.]

Top ten:

1)Once More with Feeling, 2) the Body, 3)Hush, 4)Becoming, 5)Restless, 6) Fool for Love, 7)Lies My Parents Told Me (although I agree with the ranker that Robin Wood's character didn't work - his vendetta seemed a bit long in the tooth and too late.), 8) Conversations with Dead People, 9)Beneath Me (and yes I liked the whole episode so sue me - the ranked hated the first part with the Sluggoth demon - and yet they thought Family was innovative?)/ Selfless (tied), 10) Dopplegangland

Comments

[sophist.livejournal.com]

I saw those ratings too. Pretty odd taste, if you ask me. Several of the top ratings were justifiable, but there were some very weird ones up there as well. The bottom ones included some very good, even great, episodes.

Your bottom 10 left out some candidates: Reptile Boy, Living Conditions, Gone, Doublemeat Palace, Two to Go.

I'm not a big fan of Family or Amends, but I wouldn't put them that low.

I love Chosen, but I didn't cry.

De gustibus, etc.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I should have stated how I did the ranking? I ranked it by entertainment value or which episodes I wouldn't mind watching again and which one's I will skip. Admittedly not the most objective approach.

I can actually watch Reptile Boy (Cordy and Buffy are rather interesting in the episode),Living Conditions (the whole bad buffy without a soul bit), Gone (the Buffy/Spike scenes and the Xander/Spike scenes).

I liked Two to Go better than most.

On the fence about Doublemeat. They are definitely all in the bottom twenty though.

Chosen falls somewhere in the middle or top 90.

[sophist.livejournal.com]

Ah, I'd have a very different ranking if I did it by entertainment value. The Body isn't entertaining, it's damned hard to re-watch. School Hard, though, is great fun to watch, even if it's not nearly as good an episode.

[empresspatti.livejournal.com]

I think my fav funny ep was Band Candy - followed by Fool for Love.

[cactuswatcher.livejournal.com]

Very difficult to rank them all in any order. Grouping them in terms of good, bad, indifferent is easier, not that people will even agree on those. Everybody's list is going to be different. I didn't hate As You Were as much as some people, although the Sam character was indeed written badly. Amends was indifferent in my book. Wouldn't disagree with most of the rest of your list of stinkers. I'd insert Bad Eggs (for extreme low-brow humor and general low quality) and I Was Made to Love You (for taking a very reasonable feminist theme and bashing it over the audience's head over and over again).

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Yep - it really does depend on what personally annoys or not.

For me - "As You Were" is responsible for one of the worst lines ever: "Slayer, if I knew you were coming I'd have baked a cake."

Bad Eggs didn't bug me that much upon re-watch, although it does borrow heavily from Robert Heinlein's The Puppet Masters.

[cactuswatcher.livejournal.com]

Do you know the song "If I knew you were coming I'd a baked a cake"? For people of a certain age that's sort of a standard phrase for welcome-but-unexpected guests, said facetiously or not. I admit it was more than a little dated for the Buffy show, but not at all inappropriate.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Felt out of character for Spike though.

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

Bad Eggs didn't bug me that much upon re-watch, although it does borrow heavily from Robert Heinlein's The Puppet Masters.

There's a nifty shot of bespelled Willow and Joyce coming after Buffy that's pretty chilling in hindsight of Gingerbread and S6.

[spikesjojo.livejournal.com]

SMG tweeted that The Prom should have been rated much higher!

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

SMG tweeted that The Prom should have been rated much higher!

I've heard her say or imply in interviews that she loves that one, but I don't know why that one in particular. It's not a great ep in and of itself. The scene where Buffy FINALLY gets some recognition from her classmates (and Giles' proud smile) is fantastic. Get out the tissues.

The bangel of it is - ugh. He breaks up with her in a sewer, then shows up at the dance. STOP YANKING THE POOR GIRL AROUND, ANGEL. (yeah I may have issues about that.*lol*)

[eilowyn.livejournal.com]

She got to wear a pretty Vera Wang dress (and ruin a Rolling Stones cover song for me for all eternity). Of course she likes The Prom! Of course, how Buffy could afford a Vera Wang dress isn't addressed ...

Oh, and she ships Buffy/Angel, and there was the whole wedding scene that launched a thousand fics.

The bangel of it is - ugh. He breaks up with her in a sewer, then shows up at the dance. STOP YANKING THE POOR GIRL AROUND, ANGEL.

And his showing up is supposed to be ~romantic. Hence the ruined Rolling Stones cover.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Oh, and she ships Buffy/Angel, and there was the whole wedding scene that launched a thousand fics.

I remember the rumor online at that time was SMG and Boreanze were romantically involved behind the scenes (even though he was married and that had something to do with the divorce). At any rate - they apparently got along very well.

While SMG and JM tended to rub each other the wrong way - ie they did NOT like each other. (I got that from JM's Q&A's not SMG, who learned from her time at All My Children not to talk about other cast members to the press. Also Whedon sort of hints at it during the commentary of Wild At Heart - resulting in a very awkward and somewhat hilarious moment in the commentary between Whedon and Seth Green.)

[kikimay]

Also Whedon sort of hints at it during the commentary of Wild At Heart - resulting in a very awkward and somewhat hilarious moment in the commentary between Whedon and Seth Green

Really? When?
I also read about the SMG/DB rumors but I didn't care about them. I've always thought that Sarah shipped Bangel because it was her fantasy but when Ringer premiered DB send her a good luck twit, so maybe it's also because they were friends or whatever.

(and ruin a Rolling Stones cover song for me for all eternity)

Whatever! The original is better anyway! XDDDDD

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

The commentary in Wild at Heart - is during Willow and Seth's sex scene and nudity. Seth Green comments that for those types of scenes it's better if the two actors are friends and supportive, and says he knows that Buffy and Spike are at it right now (they did the commentary after Smash and Wreck aired). And wasn't sure how well they got along, but hoped they did. And asks if they are friends, etc? Whedon responds along the lines of: (after a pregnant pause) well you know, sometimes it's much better when the actors don't get along - the screen loves it. (another pause). Seth coughs. Whedon amends: but you guys were cute too.(indicating Willow/Oz). LOL!

So yep. Did NOT get along. They had completely different acting styles. Marsters was theater trained, owned a theater company at one point, and pure method, with a lot of schooling. Gellar had no college, a child actress from daytime soaps and television. Her style was more intuitive - and similar to David Boreanze and Nathan Fillion. No prep. Learn the lines fast (because of soaps) and do what director said. Marsters - prepped, was the character at all times.

Completely different approaches. That's why they didn't get along. Neither respected the others' style at the time. It's no different than being at you work place - you despise some co-workers but love others, just imagine having to kiss and make out with the ones...you despise?

[enisy.livejournal.com]

Not true about James and Sarah. Whedon confirms to Seth that they got along well, before going on that tangent about onscreen chemistry. And you can tell by all the quotage, especially on James's part:
http://enisy.livejournal.com/1434.html
http://enisy.livejournal.com/1654.html

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

Not true about James and Sarah.

I remember seeing those pages about a year or so ago, thanks for the links. He is extremely complimentary of her in those quotes.

In the dailies I've watched from S6 (Smashed, Wrecked, DT) they certainly seem to work together well.

Is it possible that changed near the end of the series? (Then again everyone seemed exhausted at the end. I imagine working that long and that intimately with any group of people, you get tired of it eventually and need to move on.)

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I think its like any working relationship - some days you hate your co-workers, some days you love them. Depends on your mood, what you ate that morning etc.

I've watched Q&A's where Marsters blasts Gellar in hilarious fashion. (One, she told him she was the star of the show and not to get big-headed, and in another he told her that he was fine hanging on the cross all day - go ahead and take a 20 minute or an hour bathroom break...He was actually, it wasn't painful, but she didn't know that.)

In others he's very complimentary.

Gellar wisely doesn't say a thing - because been there done that with All My Children. (Gellar and Susan Lucci who played mother and daughter - did NOT get along.)

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I don't know. I've heard two versions of the story. In some Q&A's James talks about how they really didn't get along. And in other's he says they did. [I could provide links and quotes too...but really don't feel like hunting them at the moment. They are in my livejournal somewhere.]

And the commentary...can be interpreted two ways.

I'm not sure it matters in any event. I know in work and in school - sometimes you get along with your coworkers sometimes you really don't. Which I think was most likely the case here. Some days - they loved each other, some days they hated each other.

It's not like they are working together now or even friends.

Honestly, I ask myself sometimes...why do we even care??? LOL! (I suppose because we think that the actors had to love each other or really get along for their characters to work? Yet, in the film Officer and a Gentleman - the lead actors (Debra Winger and Richard Gere) hated each other, as did Vivian Lee and Clark Gable in Gone with the Wind...

I also wonder why we care what their favorite episodes were or which romance they preferred or which person they wanted to be paired with.
It's like asking a co-worker - who they like to work with the most.
I don't know about you? But for me - this changes on a daily basis.

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

Of course, how Buffy could afford a Vera Wang dress isn't addressed ...

Was it a Vera Wang? I wasn't aware of that. (How many people watching it would have been?) Expecting sense of economic matters in the buffyverse is like expecting gold leaf on a cheese pizza.

Remember Prophecy Girl re: the white dress "We can't afford it." When in that entire season had there been a single indication that Joyce and Buffy were struggling economically? In that sprawling Arts and Crafts Bungalow house large enough to house a small army (pun intended), Joyce driving a jeep and managing or owning (?) an art gallery we never see - galleries, btw, are NOT income producers. tax write-offs is more like it. Buffy wearing multiple outfits each episode and enough plastic rings to fill a single Forever 21 store.

And the thing is, Joyce could have gotten the dress at JC Penney's or even Sears, so I'm not seeing the big budget-breaker here. But we know from S6 that Hank and Joyce never taught Buffy a thing about economics.

there was the whole wedding scene that launched a thousand fics.

That was a nightmare of Angel's that ended with Buffy immolating in the sunlight. So that scene at least is definitely not "played straight". What fandom does with it isn't the show's fault. Everyone romanticizes Romeo and Juliet, but it's a play that features two stupid young people who commit suicide & there's nothing romantic about it. (Or Wuthering Heights, etc.)

Hence the ruined Rolling Stones cover.

That cover version or the song itself?

I think the other thing that irks me about it is that, he shows up after buffy's big moment - can she not have a big moment, a moment in the sun or the spotlight that doesn't then turn out to be about the men & the ships?

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I think the Sunday's did the cover version? I admittedly prefer the Rolling Stones version. Have both on my ipod. And have listened to them back to back, the Rolling Stones version is less sappy and edgier, has a bit more bass or something. Can't put my finger on it, exactly.

The writers were critiquing the star-crossed lover/romeo and juliet trope throughout Buffy. Actually Vampire Diaries is doing it too at the moment.
Why television writers feel the need to critique these romantic tropes, yet don't critic violent pulp novel tropes is beyond me.

Agreed on the financial inconsistencies. They clearly wanted their cake and eat it too - ie, have the characters dress beautifully and stylish, but also have them struggling financially. LOL!

In this episode - we had Cordelia struggling to buy a dress, because she's suddenly poor and has to work in boutique to afford one. Buffy meanwhile isn't working (outside of slaying) and her mother works in a gallery and is single and maybe getting child support? Yet, gets to wear an expensive prom dress?

Buffy was basically broke when the writers wanted to write about what it's like to be broke (Doublemeat Palace, Flooded, Life Serial, Gone, As You Were) and not broke when they decided it was boring and didn't want to write about it.

Plot consistency is hard thing to come by in television dramas, sitcoms and serials.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Yes, her love of "The Prom" has always bewildered me. Yes - the scene at the end is lovely...but it last two seconds.

[spikesjojo.livejournal.com]

I do like Giles and Wesley - emotional maturity of a blueberry scone. XD
Maybe she just had a lot of FEELS while taping this one.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I have to remind myself that Gellar was 20 years of age at the time and most likely didn't get a prom, since she was at a different sort of school.

There's a huge difference between acting in/watching a series at the age of 20 and at the age of 30.

Also acting in an episode is different than watching it. I know a lot of actors who adored movies and roles, that I've thought and critics have thought were horrible, while movies they despised working on - got multiple critical awards.

[vamp-mogs.livejournal.com]

I really dislike Gone. You know it's bad when you're actually embarrassed to watch it in a room full of non-BtVS fans. All the voice over work is really bad and amateurish, the dialogue is incredibly cheesy, and who the hell wants to watch an invisible fight? *eyeroll* It's probably my least favourite episode of the show.

I seem to be in the minority as I've never got the hate for Bad Eggs, Some Assembly Required or Reptile Boy. The stories are pretty lame but they have some really entertaining scenes in them and some great interactions between the characters. For example, I just LOVE Buffy and Xander poking fun at Giles when they catch him practicing on a chair to ask out Jenny (“How do you feel about Mexcian?” “Mexicans?”)

I've always thought When She Was Bad was a really underrated episode. The scene in the Bronze when Buffy dances with Xander is one of my favourites. Not only do I find it sexy but it’s just brutal to watch Buffy calculatedly hurt every single one of her friends.

Can't pick a fave ep. My mind changes all the time. But I just can't bring myself to every say The Body, Hush or OMWF. They're all fantastic but they don't feel like a typical episode of the series for me as they're such a departure from what the show usually is on a week-to-week basis. It just feels like a betrayal somehow to pick one of them as the best. I dunno.

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

All the voice over work is really bad and amateurish, the dialogue is incredibly cheesy, and who the hell wants to watch an invisible fight?

The only good thing about that ep was Willow with the ray gun. So, thirty seconds out of the entire thing? The voice work is so horrible I cringed every time I heard Sarah's voice onscreen. Once was more than enough to sit through that thing.

Can't pick a fave ep. My mind changes all the time. But I just can't bring myself to every say The Body, Hush or OMWF. They're all fantastic but they don't feel like a typical episode of the series for me as they're such a departure from what the show usually is on a week-to-week basis. It just feels like a betrayal somehow to pick one of them as the best.

This is me exactly.

[vamp-mogs.livejournal.com]

The voice work is so horrible I cringed every time I heard Sarah's voice onscreen. Once was more than enough to sit through that thing.

THANKYOU! I just don't get why it was so horrendous because they did a much better job with Marcie Ross back in S1. Marcie actually sounded like she was in the room with the other characters whereas it was painfully obvious Sarah was speaking OVER the scene. I’m just stunned they found it passable enough to air, tbh :/

I do like the scene where the counsellor visits the Summers' house and Buffy makes a mess of things. It’s the only remotely redeemable thing about the episode for me.

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

I just don't get why it was so horrendous because they did a much better job with Marcie Ross back in S1. Marcie actually sounded like she was in the room with the other characters whereas it was painfully obvious Sarah was speaking OVER the scene.

EXACTLY.

It's odd (ironic?) that the two episodes Sarah written when Sarah was unavailable are also two of my least favorites. It's like she went away and the writers' brains took a vacation as well? (I think Sarah even said something disparaging about the "turn Buffy into a rat" bit for BBB.)

It’s the only remotely redeemable thing about the episode for me.

The wig is horrible but the scene where she starts chopping off her hair is fairly powerful - or could have been if I wasn't so aware it was a wig. But I've been in that place where you feel so bad, ashamed, etc and you want to hurt yourself & cutting your own hair is the safest alternative to self-harm.

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

In short, reviewing is an odd occupation. Why we pay people to do it, I've no clue. Before the internet, it sort of made sense - because not everyone could post their opinion. You had to get a paper or magazine to employ you to post one. Now, however, why bother paying them? Do people like Robert Bianco, Alan Sepinwall, Owen Glieberman, Ken Tucker, etc...really need to be paid for just writing their opinions? Are their opinions any more relevant or interesting than those who aren't being paid?

Today? Well having reviews for the NY Times might still make sense I suppose when there are so many forms of art and media concentrated in one city (museums, opera, etc etc). But otherwise, really not. Besides internet, access to media is another part of that - I can now watch a restored version of Metropolis on Netflix for instance, or watch new indie films from around the world. When I was in college 20 years ago that was unthinkable.

First off - I may be in the minority here? But I thought Beer Bad was a whole lot funnier than Gone

Then that makes two of us, although I doubt it's such a minority, at least here on LJ.

Although kudos that they admitted the rocket launcher tackle in HIM is comedy gold (it is).

Him is actually my (guilty pleasure) go to ep for laughs. I've seen the something happening outside someone's window and they don't notice routine done hundreds of times in movies and tv shows. This was the first time it ever actually made me laugh.

But seriously All the Way ranked higher than Never Leave Me, Beneath Me, and Smashed

I have no words for this.

And I can't disagree with most of your bottom picks, although I love Tara's awesomeness in OAFA - it definitely has pacing issues as you say. Family bothers me for the very reasons you say, especially given it was written by Joss. Up until that point "written by Joss Whedon" usually meant I could expect something extraordinary (Hush, Restless); the one time he bothers to turn the spotlight on Tara, he let me down big time with his horrid stereotypes. (Even with Amy Adams.) Another lost opportunity, because the theme of chosen families and the fact that the ep begins with Buffy committing to protect Dawn, and ending with Buffy and Dawn protecting Tara, it could have been something special. (His stereotyping of southerners comes across loud and clear in Showtime, when the only Potential who becomes the First is Eve.)

Inca Mummy girl lands near the bottom of my list. That horrible "incan" accent, ugh, and a gorgeous woman thinking Xander is the most wonderful thing ever is clearly Joss acting out his fantasies.

Beneath Me (and yes I liked the whole episode so sue me

I think the entire episode is terrific; all the focus (in the Spuffy part of fandom) of course is on the last scene, but the scene in the Bronze is razor-sharp and crackles with tension until Spike & Anya blow the lid wide open.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

His stereotyping of southerners comes across loud and clear in Showtime, when the only Potential who becomes the First is Eve.)

Typical Hollywood stereotype and highly annoying. I similar issues. And I agree, one of my main problems with Family - was it was supposed to be the Tara back-story episode and it failed. Tara was originally supposed to be a wood-sprite but they chose to go with the witches are demon's hollywood C-movie trope.

I think the entire episode is terrific; all the focus (in the Spuffy part of fandom) of course is on the last scene, but the scene in the Bronze is razor-sharp and crackles with tension until Spike & Anya blow the lid wide open.

I thought it worked as well. The shifts in Spike's behavior are fascinating. He tries on various personalities trying to figure out what works. And that Bronze scene crackles, as does the bit in the alley when he slays the sluggoth demon - trying to be heroic, only to discover its a man not a demon and to get terribly confused about it.

One of the most interesting character centric episodes of the series. I actually think Buffy was at its best when it focused on the emotional journeys of its characters and not on plot.

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

I thought it worked as well. The shifts in Spike's behavior are fascinating.

Actually that's exactly what I'm talking about re: BY, the almost total focus on Spike in that ep by fandom. Yes, his shifts are fantastic and chilling - except for the OTT screaming in the alley. I'm thinking more of the total quartet of players: Buffy, Xander, Anya, Spike, the history, the bristling tensions. Buffy trying to figure Spike out every step of the way, trying to summon The Slayer when she's still hurting from last year and dealing with PTSD; Xander trying to move on, Anya trying to stay in D'Hoffryn's good graces.

When Anya says "Bite me, Harris!" the anger and resentment, the contrast to the intimacy they once shared ("Harris" now, not "Xander") is remarkable. Buffy trying to do her job, trying to stop both Spike and Anya but hesitating to do so; Spike and Anya beating the shit out of one another in complete contrast to their moments of tenderness in Entropy. I even felt a little sympathy for Xander realizing Nancy wasn't going to call him, and I hardly ever feel sorry for him. Buffy/Spike & Xander/Anya labeling each other as "exes" to Nancy, putting their relationships on an equal plane verbally. (Xander doesn't say "ex-fiancee".) And of course the "Is there anyone here who hasn't slept together?" and Xander & Spike's look. Gold.

I actually think Buffy was at its best when it focused on the emotional journeys of its characters and not on plot.

Absolutely.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Well, I tended to focus more on Spike, because at that point - I admittedly had begun to lose interest in the other characters. *cough*insaneSpikeObsession*cough*

But you are right, the Anya/Xander storyline works quite well and builds up to Selfless marvelously. Actually both Beneath You, Same Time Same Place, and Selfless are work quite well together. Although Anya seems to have a more constant role in these than some of the other characters. Anya had more character development in the front end of S7, but after Selfless...she sort of disappears or gets relegated to background chatter. That was actually my main issue with S7 - The front half of season is really good - it's more focused. We have less characters, and so it is more focused on the core characters, their issues, and the plot is tighter and more suspenseful.
The second half - introduces about 15 more characters or at least it felt like that. Instead of just three or four, we got a whole slew. In previous seasons...it was just a couple new characters and they weren't on screen all the time. In S7: we had about 5-6 potential slayers, Andrew, Robin Wood, Faith. So that's about 10 new characters - who all required focus. It became defused and wandered all over the place. What they should have done was introduce maybe three new slayers (Kennedy and possibly Rona and Amanda - who did further the plot and were important), reduced Andrew's screen time (this character was overused), kept Robin Wood and kept Faith.

[kikimay]

But I thought Beer Bad was a whole lot funnier than Gone,

AMEN! I'm part of the minority if I say that I really like Beer Bad? I mean, it's silly, but it's so fun and the bit with Giles describing Buffy to a random student makes me giggle all the time. Beer Bad is FUUUUUN.

And I'd certainly rank Smashed higher than Older and Far Away, Gone, and Doublemeat Palace

I also agree on that.

Also...Chosen. Did Chosen make you cry?

Not at all. And it's strange, maybe, because Spike is my favourite character and he dies in that ... but I didn't cry. I love the episode for different reasons and one of them is Buffy's smile at the end and that doesn't make me cry. It makes me feel stronger.

I don't give much important to these kind of lists. De gustibus non disputandum est etc. etc.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

And it's strange, maybe, because Spike is my favourite character and he dies in that ... but I didn't cry. I love the episode for different reasons and one of them is Buffy's smile at the end and that doesn't make me cry. It makes me feel stronger.

Had more or less the same reaction. It's not a bad episode (certainly better than any episode of Marvel: Agents of Shield that I've seen to date) but not a great one either.

Spike - I knew at the time he was going to Angel, which may or may not have had an effect. But part of it was the fact that writer wanted to have his cake and eat it too - or wanted to please everybody, and you can't as a writer.

He wanted the romance, but he didn't want it - because he wanted Spike to make a selfless sacrifice, and he didn't want to get in trouble for Buffy loving Spike and not being able to move on - because it was too controversial or something, he wanted to keep the Buffy/Angel ship open and the Buffy/Spike ship, but he didn't want Buffy to look unsympathetic and be a bitch - if Spike loved her and she didn't love him and used him. As a result it was a confusing scene and not clear to anyone really - but loads of fun to analyze and interpret. I remember in the commentary - Whedon stating that the actors had no clue what he was going for and telling me as much. LOL! And even Whedon doesn't seem to know - he wanted the ending of Empire Strikes Back but no not really.

As a result, it was hard to care one way or another. My friend and I looked at each other after it ended and said: "So, uh, Spike saved the world by standing still and burning to a crisp? Alrighty then."

[kikimay]

He wanted the romance, but he didn't want it - because he wanted Spike to make a selfless sacrifice, and he didn't want to get in trouble for Buffy loving Spike and not being able to move on - because it was too controversial or something, he wanted to keep the Buffy/Angel ship open and the Buffy/Spike ship, but he didn't want Buffy to look unsympathetic and be a bitch - if Spike loved her and she didn't love him and used him. As a result it was a confusing scene and not clear to anyone really - but loads of fun to analyze and interpret. I remember in the commentary - Whedon stating that the actors had no clue what he was going for and telling me as much. LOL! And even Whedon doesn't seem to know - he wanted the ending of Empire Strikes Back but no not really.

I think you focused the whole problem. There's too middle ground and while I love the fact that Chosen is open to interpretations, maybe if Whedon would have made a choice it would have worked so much better. Still, I love the burning hands scene - so powerful - and Buffy's smile at the end, so that saves the whole episode for me. And I knew about Spike being on AtS so I wasn't really sad about his dead.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Agreed - I love the burning hand sequence and the metaphor. He basically decided to go for the metaphor, as opposed to the literal statement, which worked.

I do wish he'd been less ambivalent though...which is why Chosen doesn't work quite as well as the Gift, Graduation Day, Becoming and Prophecy Girl as a season ender...because those episodes were less emotionally ambivalent and more focused.

Chosen is an incredibly ambitious episode - a lot is going on during it.
So there is that.

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

I love the fact that Chosen is open to interpretations, maybe if Whedon would have made a choice

Irony, thy name is Joss Whedon.

[londonkds.livejournal.com]

My problems with "Beer Bad" are first that it has such an overstated American attitude to alcohol (found more generally in that run of episodes as Willow getting drunk a couple of times in the immediate aftermath of Oz leaving is treated as if she's on the edge of lifelong alcoholism), and second that the ending with Buffy beating Parker unconscious is the one point that the show falls into the unpleasantly shallow pop-feminist double standard of "it is unforgivable for a man ever to strike a women no matter what the circumstances, but life-threatening violence by women against men for disproportionate provocation is hilarious".

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Yeah, well...it is however an accurate satirical take on college life in the US, which basically revolves around insane frat parties where the goal is to get drunk out of your mind.

I know, I lived it. Doesn't matter the college or size. I went to a small liberal arts school - Freshman Year, the RA (resident assistant) was making us Long Island Ice Tea (basically, vodka and triple sec along with few other things) and Evergreen was very popular (100 proof whiskey). We were 18. Not even of legal age.

I remember a kid dying of alcohol poisoning. And that's nothing.

Also 3.2 beer was permitted to people who were 18 in Colorado.

Beer Bad is hilarious if you had these experiences, but if you don't, probably not so much.

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

I'll second what shadowkat67 said already but I'll also add that I grew up with the sort of PSA type films and movie of the week tv shows aimed at the evils of alcohol, and Beer Bad is a parody of them. The message is not that drinking is bad per se but it isn't ordinary beer - it's been doctored. It's a brilliant touch that the bartender who is serving the doctored beer is one of the few "bad guys" on the show who isn't punished (aside from his bar burning down), except for Xander shaking his finger and saying "You are a bad man!" And then the final lines are a clear parody of the "important life lesson":

"What have we learned?"

"Beer foamy."

"Just so we're clear on that."

the unpleasantly shallow pop-feminist double standard of "it is unforgivable for a man ever to strike a women no matter what the circumstances, but life-threatening violence by women against men for disproportionate provocation is hilarious".

You're not wrong...given that Joss is a shallow pop-feminist at best (and that's arguable), it's not surprising. But then again Xander being responsible for the deaths of ten people (offscreen) in OMWF is arguably much worse and it's the same thing - violence played for laughs, which occurs quite a lot on the series. (the death of the coach in Go Fish is the same idea.) So I'm not really fussed about it here.

What I find puzzling is the fact that Parker gets "disproportionate" punishment here, and is definitely written as a one-dimensional jerk; while Riley commits far more egregious acts in cheating on buffy (his girlfriend of nearly a year) with vamp whores while he and Buffy are in a committed relationship, lying to her and the SG, not showing up for patrols etc, - and the upshot from the writers is that SHE drove him away and he's rewarded with an apology from her in S6 because he's - such a swell guy? Talk about disproportionate.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I'll also add that I grew up with the sort of PSA type films and movie of the week tv shows aimed at the evils of alcohol, and Beer Bad is a parody of them.

Oh yeah. It wasn't just movies of the week - it was the ABC Afterschool Specials (basically movies with a moral theme aimed at teen audience, at 3pm - which aired in the 1970s and 1980s in the US on ABC - a direct result of the Children's Television ACT - passed in the 1970s, which required the networks to provide more children's programming in the early evening and afternoon hours.) Most of them were about substance abuse.

In the 1970s through the 1990s, the situation comedies loved to do it. Family Ties had an episode about alcoholism as did Blossum, Cheers (yes, CHEERS!), Night Court, The Cosby Show...it became a joke. These were often advertised as "tonight, there will be 'very special' Blossum episode" - then after the episode was over, cast members would do a PSA with phone numbers listed below on how you could get help if you or a family member were having this problem. They still do it - actually with daytime soap operas.

The Buffy writers loved to poke fun at the "very special episode" or that "very special Blossum episode". (Wrecked, Beer Bad, the whole Willow arc - was meant to make fun of that trope. Sometimes it was successful, mostly not.)

You're not wrong...given that Joss is a shallow pop-feminist at best (and that's arguable), it's not surprising.

It's a problem with most male television writers and screen-writers who are raised in Hollywood. He's pretty much a product of his environment.

That said, to be fair to Whedon and his ilk - Hollywood has never known how to handle feminism or racism for that matter, nor has pop culture in general - not as long as they believe the key or favored demo is white men between the ages of 18-45 - who advertisers believe pay the high dollar amounts (ie. car commercials).

When your cultural product is funded primarily by "advertising" dollars or is "profit based" - it tends to be a little warped. In short if your goal is to sell a BMW - you aren't going to piss off the people who would buy that BMW too badly, you are going to pander to them. This unfortunately has warped our culture and society.

The tv show, book, movie, etc that is popular is not the cause, but the symptom - it's showing us what is wrong here.

So the worship of Riley makes sense if you think about it within that context. He's Mr. GI Joe, portrayed by a former college basketball star, from Middle-America. In some respects - how Riley is portrayed and how the characters react to him is a critique of our need to worship military soliders and war heroes. We ignore their flaws, because hey they protected us from the evil guys. But you can't exactly come out and say that and still sell BMWs.

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

It wasn't just movies of the week - it was the ABC Afterschool Specials (basically movies with a moral theme aimed at teen audience, at 3pm - which aired in the 1970s and 1980s in the US on ABC - a direct result of the Children's Television ACT - passed in the 1970s, which required the networks to provide more children's programming in the early evening and afternoon hours.) Most of them were about substance abuse.

That's the program I was trying to remember, thanks!

Hollywood has never known how to handle feminism or racism for that matter, nor has pop culture in general - not as long as they believe the key or favored demo is white men between the ages of 18-45 - who advertisers believe pay the high dollar amounts (ie. car commercials).

True, sadly enough.