Dark Stuff About Buffy and Seeing Red...
Apr. 13th, 2018 07:26 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
shadowkat1. Hmmm...I knew some of this, but not all of it: Dark Secrets of Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Angel.
And.. 15 examples of behind the scenes drama from Buffy
2. I need to write a bit about this, but I am aware you may not want to read it. So behind a cut it goeth...
But first a few links:
* Buffy and Consent Issues - the Episode Seeing Red
* James Marsters Tells The Story Behind that Buffy Scene that Made You Hate Spike - The Mary Sue
* The Buffy Episode that Changed the Way we talk about television
And in another post I already, provided the Dragon Con bit where James Marsters explains how filming the episode drove him into therapy and almost made him want to commit suicide by concrete. Along with a Q&A clip where Marsters visibly shudders when another actor discusses playing a rapist. [It's about two or three posts prior to this one.]
After seeing several Q&A's where James Marsters is either asked about the Bathroom Scene in Buffy or what was the worst scene he ever filmed in his entire career, I decided to re-watch the scene. And, dear god, that is a cringe-inducing scene. I can't watch it without wanting to crawl into a hole, hide my eyes, or leave the room. Although that's true in regards to most rape scenes. I can actually read them or about them far better than I can watch them.
Had a discussion with my niece about this (not rape, but watching violence vs. reading it). And my niece, who was maybe eleven at the time, wisely stated that it was easier to read it. You don't have to see it. Your mind can put some distance between you and it. It doesn't feel quite as visceral. (She didn't use that word. I don't her remember her exact words, just the gist. She's bright, but not quite that bright yet. Although right now at fourteen she uses that word and some latin ones that I've never heard of.)
Anyhow, my difficulty with it on film and television is well, you have real people performing these scenes. And acting is all about putting something real on film. You are pretending, true, but it is also real -- and you have to dig into parts of yourself you may not want to. A few years back, I read an article about a stunt choreographer who did rape scenes, and how traumatizing it was for everyone involved.
I think it's this one :
And.. 15 examples of behind the scenes drama from Buffy
2. I need to write a bit about this, but I am aware you may not want to read it. So behind a cut it goeth...
But first a few links:
* Buffy and Consent Issues - the Episode Seeing Red
* James Marsters Tells The Story Behind that Buffy Scene that Made You Hate Spike - The Mary Sue
* The Buffy Episode that Changed the Way we talk about television
And in another post I already, provided the Dragon Con bit where James Marsters explains how filming the episode drove him into therapy and almost made him want to commit suicide by concrete. Along with a Q&A clip where Marsters visibly shudders when another actor discusses playing a rapist. [It's about two or three posts prior to this one.]
After seeing several Q&A's where James Marsters is either asked about the Bathroom Scene in Buffy or what was the worst scene he ever filmed in his entire career, I decided to re-watch the scene. And, dear god, that is a cringe-inducing scene. I can't watch it without wanting to crawl into a hole, hide my eyes, or leave the room. Although that's true in regards to most rape scenes. I can actually read them or about them far better than I can watch them.
Had a discussion with my niece about this (not rape, but watching violence vs. reading it). And my niece, who was maybe eleven at the time, wisely stated that it was easier to read it. You don't have to see it. Your mind can put some distance between you and it. It doesn't feel quite as visceral. (She didn't use that word. I don't her remember her exact words, just the gist. She's bright, but not quite that bright yet. Although right now at fourteen she uses that word and some latin ones that I've never heard of.)
Anyhow, my difficulty with it on film and television is well, you have real people performing these scenes. And acting is all about putting something real on film. You are pretending, true, but it is also real -- and you have to dig into parts of yourself you may not want to. A few years back, I read an article about a stunt choreographer who did rape scenes, and how traumatizing it was for everyone involved.
I think it's this one :
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1. Hmmm...I knew some of this, but not all of it: <a HREF="https://screenrant.com/buffy-vampire-slayer-dark-secrets-behind-shocking-trivia-facts/">Dark Secrets of Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Angel</a>.
And..<A HREF="https://www.thethings.com/15-examples-of-behind-the-scenes-drama-from-buffy-the-vampire-slayer/"> 15 examples of behind the scenes drama from Buffy</a>
2. I need to write a bit about this, but I am aware you may not want to read it. So behind a cut it goeth...
But first a few links:
* <A HREF="http://theresabasile.com/wp/2013/01/21/btvs-and-consent-issues-episode-6-19-seeing-red/"> Buffy and Consent Issues - the Episode Seeing Red</a>
* <A HREF="https://www.themarysue.com/james-marsters-tells-the-story-behind-that-buffy-scene-that-made-you-hate-spike/"> James Marsters Tells The Story Behind that Buffy Scene that Made You Hate Spike - The Mary Sue</a>
*<A HREF="https://www.vice.com/en_uk/article/jpy8kd/the-buffy-episode-that-changed-the-way-we-talk-about-television"> The Buffy Episode that Changed the Way we talk about television</a>
And in another post I already, provided the Dragon Con bit where James Marsters explains how filming the episode drove him into therapy and almost made him want to commit suicide by concrete. Along with a Q&A clip where Marsters visibly shudders when another actor discusses playing a rapist. [It's about two or three posts prior to this one.]
<cut text="My difficulty with how rape is depicted in film and television and the consequences of how it is filmed.">
After seeing several Q&A's where James Marsters is either asked about the Bathroom Scene in Buffy or what was the worst scene he ever filmed in his entire career, I decided to re-watch the scene. And, dear god, that is a cringe-inducing scene. I can't watch it without wanting to crawl into a hole, hide my eyes, or leave the room. Although that's true in regards to most rape scenes. I can actually read them or about them far better than I can watch them.
Had a discussion with my niece about this (not rape, but watching violence vs. reading it). And my niece, who was maybe eleven at the time, wisely stated that it was easier to read it. You don't have to see it. Your mind can put some distance between you and it. It doesn't feel quite as visceral. (She didn't use that word. I don't her remember her exact words, just the gist. She's bright, but not quite that bright yet. Although right now at fourteen she uses that word and some latin ones that I've never heard of.)
Anyhow, my difficulty with it on film and television is well, you have real people performing these scenes. And acting is all about putting something real on film. You are pretending, true, but it is also real -- and you have to dig into parts of yourself you may not want to. A few years back, I read an article about a stunt choreographer who did rape scenes, and how traumatizing it was for everyone involved.
I think it's this one : <a HREF="http://www.laweekly.com/film/how-actors-and-filmmakers-cope-with-enacting-rape-on-screen-8415330>How Actors and Filmakers Cope With Enacting Rape on Screen</a> then <a HREF="https://jezebel.com/what-is-a-rape-choreographer-and-why-do-film-sets-need-1797267080"> Jezabel picked it up with "What is a Rape Choreographer and Why do Film Sets Need One</a>.
One actor in the LA Weekly article, Ecklund, who played the rapist, discusses how he tried to handle it, and how traumatizing it was for him. The actresses who played opposite him in the scene took him aside a year later and apologized for not checking in with him -- that he'd also been traumatized by it.
Filmmakers and Television writers justify it as necessary, but...is it? I was discussing it with my mother who said in the early days of film and television they didn't show it at all. Actually, she said, Buffy's depiction was shocking. It was rarely shown in that detail and in that way on television -- and especially not for a show marketed at tween girls.
There's a lot of things unsettling about how they filmed that sequence, and why.
1. It was allegedly based on a real-life experience of one of the writers. Marti Noxon had a kinky sex relationship with a guy in college, he broke things off, and she jumped his bones, attempting to get him to rekindle it -- until he had to throw her off of him. Okay, but you'd think the writers would have figured out that there's a big difference? Or at the very least filmed it more similar to the way they filmed The Pack rape sequence, where Xander tries to do it to Buffy? (About that -- the actor, Nick Brendan states in a Q&A that he wasn't allowed to eat the school principal - because the censors couldn't have the lead do that, so instead they have him go off to try and rape Buffy, the heroine...because that's okay. He goes on to say -- "isn't that disturbing? It was disturbing to me.")
Also, Noxon's story is sympathetic towards Noxon, so writing it that way makes Spike sympathetic in a disturbing way. Almost as if the writers are sort of...undercutting it?
2. In the Bathroom - note, we never see Spike in Buffy's Bathroom until that scene. We only see Buffy's bathroom a few times in the series. It is filmed in an odd way. Stark of color, black on white, with gray. And why the bathroom? Why would he go there? It really is jarring. Made all the more so by the fact that Spike seems rather small in the frame, all in black. No jacket. No color. It's among the few times he's not wearing a jacket. Buffy's in an ugly gray bathrobe and looks horrible, no makeup, face drawn with fatigue. And in pain.
He doesn't knock, he just comes in and insists on talking to her and she puts up with him for a bit. It's a weird scene from start to finish. And stands out from the rest of the show. In some respects it reminds me how The Body was filmed.
Why they chose to do it that way -- if they were thinking along the lines of point !, I don't know.
3. The effect that it had on the actors. First of all, as one professional actor stated online at the time it aired -- you have to admire the acting in that scene. It is amazing. Both actors gave it their all -- even though they didn't want to do the scene.
Sara Michelle Gellar has not said a word about that scene. Not in interviews or online in any way. I couldn't find a word. And I looked. The most she'll say is that she hated working on S6, that it was degrading and dehumanizing and took her away from the character she loved. She also despised Spuffy at that point. So did Marsters. They were doing difficult love scenes and he was the only one who had to be naked. (She had a clause in her contract that meant no nudity. They'd have done it otherwise.) Doing sex scenes is not fun for actors or sexy -- it's long hours on a freezing set, with cameras, crew members and take after take after take. Buffy had somewhere between 12-22 takes and went over. (Angel had 12 takes. It's not really legal to do what Buffy did.)
James Marsters has had to talk about that scene in just about every Q&A he has done since filming it, and almost every interview. His answers vary as he ages, and gets distance from it. The early interviews veer between him denouncing his character and his character's relationship with Buffy and the need to do that scene, seeing it as a collossal mistake to a gradual recognition of what the writers were trying to do. But what is consistent in every single Q&A is the physical, emotional and psychological toll it took on the actor. And how it changed his approach to acting.
It almost broke him. He allegedly according to crew members -- almost walked off the set. Gellar had to talk him back on. But that's never been confirmed and may just be idle gossip. Also, allegedly one of his close family members had been brutally raped and he'd discussed it with the writers and told them how he could not do scenes like this -- and felt betrayed when he read it. (Again this is alleged, no proof can be found. A fan reported it on a fanboard.) What he has said and can be confirmed is the following:
- he went up to the writer and said, you write these things but we have to perform them, and we have no choice in the matter (you don't on a television series that you are under contract for).
- when he entered the bathroom on the first take, he was so tense, that an old back/neck injury caused him to collapse like whip-lash, he crumbled to the floor.
- After each take, he was curled in a fetal ball. He went out of his way to block it as a fight scene, and made sure Sara knew that he was not in character the whole time. A method actor, he didn't pop in and out of character, but tended to stay in character. He couldn't here. Which is why so much humanity comes across in the scene. You see the actor's horror and hesitancy in doing that role. Another reason it is weirdly jarring.
The writer is forcing the actor to do something he REALLY does not want to do.
After the scene was filmed. Marsters reports kneeling on the concrete floor and trying to figure out how hard he could drive his head into it so he could fly away. And sobbing in his own bathtub. It drove him into therapy and almost into a nervous breakdown.
This is disturbing to me. When I write a story, no one gets hurt. It's words on paper. But when you write a television show where actors are employed by you to perform whatever you write -- don't you have a responsibility to those actors? They are people. Like you. Isn't writing a rape scene for whatever reason -- abusing that power? It's one thing if they are hired to play a rapist, as Brendan was in Private Practice -- he knew he was going to play that role up front. OR Ecklund in Into the Woods. But it's another when you don't. When you think, oh it's a fun supporting role. To be fair to Marsters when Spike became a regular in Season 4, it was far-fetched that he'd end up in that situation from his point of view.
3. It was used to further character, plot, and for a redemption arc. That says something about our society and the toxic masculainity within it.
I actually think Marti's story would have worked better if Anya became a vengeance demon and attacked Xander in that manner. Or in a way they already did it when Faith raped Xander in Enemies. That worked.
4. I agree with the woman who wrote the article regarding "Seeing Red and Consent issues within Buffy". There are good and bad things here. But mostly bad.
Yes, it may have been necessary to get Spike to search for his soul. But I think it was written wrong and handled wrong.
We never see Buffy's perspective on it. Just Spike's. And later, Whedon goes out of his way to emphasize Buffy's culpability -- in that she was using Spike for sex, rough, painful sex, and giving him mixed signals -- a vampire with no soul. What does that say about Buffy, exactly? Which while interesting from one perspective, is disturbing from another.
I find how we handle rape in our society disturbing. Particularly in light of what has come out recently. Almost everyone in Hollywood has an experience to relate. And one too many directors and writers and producers in Hollywood have abused this power. Whedon may have been sexually harrassing and assaulting actresses in his employ, his wife hints that he was and that's why she got fed up and divorced him. (It's not clear, although after watching a Q&A with Glory, Anya, Jewel Straight and Amy Acker, I'm beginning to wonder if it may be -- there were a few awkward bits in there.) And Dollhouse certainly went overboard with the rape scenarios. Also, we have Game of Thrones and Outlander justifying their rape sequences. I don't buy GoT because GRR Martin barely showed it. Outlander -- yes, the writer uses rape repeatedly as a plot point. Every single lead character, regardless of age or gender, is raped in her novels. I consider that overkill and that the writer may have some psychological issues she needs to address.
Too many shows have used rape to further character. Buffy's take on it was almost cliche -- from a plot and character point angle. How it was filmed, acted and written -- wasn't in that scene. The actor's should be proud. The writer's, specifically Whedon, should be spanked. And they have been by the fandom, critics, and others over the years.
I'm not adverse to it being done, just how they chose to do it. I think they should have handled S7 a bit differently, and handled the subject in that season slightly differently than they did. But I'm not quite sure how I would have done it.
Anyhow...that's beside the point. What bothers me is that we keep going there. Why? What does it say about us as a culture that our media goes there? It's worth thinking about.
</cut>
And..<A HREF="https://www.thethings.com/15-examples-of-behind-the-scenes-drama-from-buffy-the-vampire-slayer/"> 15 examples of behind the scenes drama from Buffy</a>
2. I need to write a bit about this, but I am aware you may not want to read it. So behind a cut it goeth...
But first a few links:
* <A HREF="http://theresabasile.com/wp/2013/01/21/btvs-and-consent-issues-episode-6-19-seeing-red/"> Buffy and Consent Issues - the Episode Seeing Red</a>
* <A HREF="https://www.themarysue.com/james-marsters-tells-the-story-behind-that-buffy-scene-that-made-you-hate-spike/"> James Marsters Tells The Story Behind that Buffy Scene that Made You Hate Spike - The Mary Sue</a>
*<A HREF="https://www.vice.com/en_uk/article/jpy8kd/the-buffy-episode-that-changed-the-way-we-talk-about-television"> The Buffy Episode that Changed the Way we talk about television</a>
And in another post I already, provided the Dragon Con bit where James Marsters explains how filming the episode drove him into therapy and almost made him want to commit suicide by concrete. Along with a Q&A clip where Marsters visibly shudders when another actor discusses playing a rapist. [It's about two or three posts prior to this one.]
<cut text="My difficulty with how rape is depicted in film and television and the consequences of how it is filmed.">
After seeing several Q&A's where James Marsters is either asked about the Bathroom Scene in Buffy or what was the worst scene he ever filmed in his entire career, I decided to re-watch the scene. And, dear god, that is a cringe-inducing scene. I can't watch it without wanting to crawl into a hole, hide my eyes, or leave the room. Although that's true in regards to most rape scenes. I can actually read them or about them far better than I can watch them.
Had a discussion with my niece about this (not rape, but watching violence vs. reading it). And my niece, who was maybe eleven at the time, wisely stated that it was easier to read it. You don't have to see it. Your mind can put some distance between you and it. It doesn't feel quite as visceral. (She didn't use that word. I don't her remember her exact words, just the gist. She's bright, but not quite that bright yet. Although right now at fourteen she uses that word and some latin ones that I've never heard of.)
Anyhow, my difficulty with it on film and television is well, you have real people performing these scenes. And acting is all about putting something real on film. You are pretending, true, but it is also real -- and you have to dig into parts of yourself you may not want to. A few years back, I read an article about a stunt choreographer who did rape scenes, and how traumatizing it was for everyone involved.
I think it's this one : <a HREF="http://www.laweekly.com/film/how-actors-and-filmmakers-cope-with-enacting-rape-on-screen-8415330>How Actors and Filmakers Cope With Enacting Rape on Screen</a> then <a HREF="https://jezebel.com/what-is-a-rape-choreographer-and-why-do-film-sets-need-1797267080"> Jezabel picked it up with "What is a Rape Choreographer and Why do Film Sets Need One</a>.
One actor in the LA Weekly article, Ecklund, who played the rapist, discusses how he tried to handle it, and how traumatizing it was for him. The actresses who played opposite him in the scene took him aside a year later and apologized for not checking in with him -- that he'd also been traumatized by it.
Filmmakers and Television writers justify it as necessary, but...is it? I was discussing it with my mother who said in the early days of film and television they didn't show it at all. Actually, she said, Buffy's depiction was shocking. It was rarely shown in that detail and in that way on television -- and especially not for a show marketed at tween girls.
There's a lot of things unsettling about how they filmed that sequence, and why.
1. It was allegedly based on a real-life experience of one of the writers. Marti Noxon had a kinky sex relationship with a guy in college, he broke things off, and she jumped his bones, attempting to get him to rekindle it -- until he had to throw her off of him. Okay, but you'd think the writers would have figured out that there's a big difference? Or at the very least filmed it more similar to the way they filmed The Pack rape sequence, where Xander tries to do it to Buffy? (About that -- the actor, Nick Brendan states in a Q&A that he wasn't allowed to eat the school principal - because the censors couldn't have the lead do that, so instead they have him go off to try and rape Buffy, the heroine...because that's okay. He goes on to say -- "isn't that disturbing? It was disturbing to me.")
Also, Noxon's story is sympathetic towards Noxon, so writing it that way makes Spike sympathetic in a disturbing way. Almost as if the writers are sort of...undercutting it?
2. In the Bathroom - note, we never see Spike in Buffy's Bathroom until that scene. We only see Buffy's bathroom a few times in the series. It is filmed in an odd way. Stark of color, black on white, with gray. And why the bathroom? Why would he go there? It really is jarring. Made all the more so by the fact that Spike seems rather small in the frame, all in black. No jacket. No color. It's among the few times he's not wearing a jacket. Buffy's in an ugly gray bathrobe and looks horrible, no makeup, face drawn with fatigue. And in pain.
He doesn't knock, he just comes in and insists on talking to her and she puts up with him for a bit. It's a weird scene from start to finish. And stands out from the rest of the show. In some respects it reminds me how The Body was filmed.
Why they chose to do it that way -- if they were thinking along the lines of point !, I don't know.
3. The effect that it had on the actors. First of all, as one professional actor stated online at the time it aired -- you have to admire the acting in that scene. It is amazing. Both actors gave it their all -- even though they didn't want to do the scene.
Sara Michelle Gellar has not said a word about that scene. Not in interviews or online in any way. I couldn't find a word. And I looked. The most she'll say is that she hated working on S6, that it was degrading and dehumanizing and took her away from the character she loved. She also despised Spuffy at that point. So did Marsters. They were doing difficult love scenes and he was the only one who had to be naked. (She had a clause in her contract that meant no nudity. They'd have done it otherwise.) Doing sex scenes is not fun for actors or sexy -- it's long hours on a freezing set, with cameras, crew members and take after take after take. Buffy had somewhere between 12-22 takes and went over. (Angel had 12 takes. It's not really legal to do what Buffy did.)
James Marsters has had to talk about that scene in just about every Q&A he has done since filming it, and almost every interview. His answers vary as he ages, and gets distance from it. The early interviews veer between him denouncing his character and his character's relationship with Buffy and the need to do that scene, seeing it as a collossal mistake to a gradual recognition of what the writers were trying to do. But what is consistent in every single Q&A is the physical, emotional and psychological toll it took on the actor. And how it changed his approach to acting.
It almost broke him. He allegedly according to crew members -- almost walked off the set. Gellar had to talk him back on. But that's never been confirmed and may just be idle gossip. Also, allegedly one of his close family members had been brutally raped and he'd discussed it with the writers and told them how he could not do scenes like this -- and felt betrayed when he read it. (Again this is alleged, no proof can be found. A fan reported it on a fanboard.) What he has said and can be confirmed is the following:
- he went up to the writer and said, you write these things but we have to perform them, and we have no choice in the matter (you don't on a television series that you are under contract for).
- when he entered the bathroom on the first take, he was so tense, that an old back/neck injury caused him to collapse like whip-lash, he crumbled to the floor.
- After each take, he was curled in a fetal ball. He went out of his way to block it as a fight scene, and made sure Sara knew that he was not in character the whole time. A method actor, he didn't pop in and out of character, but tended to stay in character. He couldn't here. Which is why so much humanity comes across in the scene. You see the actor's horror and hesitancy in doing that role. Another reason it is weirdly jarring.
The writer is forcing the actor to do something he REALLY does not want to do.
After the scene was filmed. Marsters reports kneeling on the concrete floor and trying to figure out how hard he could drive his head into it so he could fly away. And sobbing in his own bathtub. It drove him into therapy and almost into a nervous breakdown.
This is disturbing to me. When I write a story, no one gets hurt. It's words on paper. But when you write a television show where actors are employed by you to perform whatever you write -- don't you have a responsibility to those actors? They are people. Like you. Isn't writing a rape scene for whatever reason -- abusing that power? It's one thing if they are hired to play a rapist, as Brendan was in Private Practice -- he knew he was going to play that role up front. OR Ecklund in Into the Woods. But it's another when you don't. When you think, oh it's a fun supporting role. To be fair to Marsters when Spike became a regular in Season 4, it was far-fetched that he'd end up in that situation from his point of view.
3. It was used to further character, plot, and for a redemption arc. That says something about our society and the toxic masculainity within it.
I actually think Marti's story would have worked better if Anya became a vengeance demon and attacked Xander in that manner. Or in a way they already did it when Faith raped Xander in Enemies. That worked.
4. I agree with the woman who wrote the article regarding "Seeing Red and Consent issues within Buffy". There are good and bad things here. But mostly bad.
Yes, it may have been necessary to get Spike to search for his soul. But I think it was written wrong and handled wrong.
We never see Buffy's perspective on it. Just Spike's. And later, Whedon goes out of his way to emphasize Buffy's culpability -- in that she was using Spike for sex, rough, painful sex, and giving him mixed signals -- a vampire with no soul. What does that say about Buffy, exactly? Which while interesting from one perspective, is disturbing from another.
I find how we handle rape in our society disturbing. Particularly in light of what has come out recently. Almost everyone in Hollywood has an experience to relate. And one too many directors and writers and producers in Hollywood have abused this power. Whedon may have been sexually harrassing and assaulting actresses in his employ, his wife hints that he was and that's why she got fed up and divorced him. (It's not clear, although after watching a Q&A with Glory, Anya, Jewel Straight and Amy Acker, I'm beginning to wonder if it may be -- there were a few awkward bits in there.) And Dollhouse certainly went overboard with the rape scenarios. Also, we have Game of Thrones and Outlander justifying their rape sequences. I don't buy GoT because GRR Martin barely showed it. Outlander -- yes, the writer uses rape repeatedly as a plot point. Every single lead character, regardless of age or gender, is raped in her novels. I consider that overkill and that the writer may have some psychological issues she needs to address.
Too many shows have used rape to further character. Buffy's take on it was almost cliche -- from a plot and character point angle. How it was filmed, acted and written -- wasn't in that scene. The actor's should be proud. The writer's, specifically Whedon, should be spanked. And they have been by the fandom, critics, and others over the years.
I'm not adverse to it being done, just how they chose to do it. I think they should have handled S7 a bit differently, and handled the subject in that season slightly differently than they did. But I'm not quite sure how I would have done it.
Anyhow...that's beside the point. What bothers me is that we keep going there. Why? What does it say about us as a culture that our media goes there? It's worth thinking about.
</cut>
no subject
Date: 2018-04-14 04:08 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2018-04-14 06:37 pm (UTC)Love your icon by the way.