We few...we band of buggered

[shadowkat]

I'm speaking of the five people on my friends list who didn't think Ats 5.18 was the cat's pajamas and were just a little disturbed by the message at the end. I think it's five, may be less. Not sure.

Sigh. Bad day. Very bad day. Getting worse. It's past one and I should sleep, instead I keep writing and deleting posts.

Got some bad news tonight about my sister-in-law who just had the baby. She's in dreadful pain. Slipped disc and severe back contusion from her labor, which have made it impossible for her to care for her new baby. I'm terribly worried about her.
She's such a sweet person and so does not deserve this. And there's nothing I can do to help. My brother is keeping everyone but close friends away at this point - due to her fragile emotional state. (Her mother is not helping her, they had to throw her out). The whole situation makes me cry.
All my other problems, of which there are many, seem silly in comparison. There is nothing worse than wanting to help and being unable to.

Comments

[ponygirl2000.livejournal.com]

Hope everything's ok with your family. A couple of my friends who had babies had hellish times for the first couple months but then were fine. Childbirth does not look like fun!

What's the message that you didn't like on AtS? I really liked Connor in Origin, but sometimes I think that the family of the girl he helped murder and the families of the people Jasmine killed wouldn't be so inclined to let him go back to his happy life.

Ah what bugged me about Origin

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

What's the message that you didn't like on AtS? I really liked Connor in Origin, but sometimes I think that the family of the girl he helped murder and the families of the people Jasmine killed wouldn't be so inclined to let him go back to his happy life.

I actually discuss this in a little more depth with fresne below. Origin disturbs me for a lot of reasons, the biggest one is that you have someone who got a happy life at the detriment of others.

Connor's happiness in Origin is at the expense of everyone else.
Angel basically is Jasmine in Origin. He does, if you think about it, the same things Jasmine did with the exception of eating people.

Angel gave Connor a new life at the expense of reality and everyone else. He paid WR&H in his blood and those of his friends to shift reality in order to give Connor a happy life. Vale states, you can get the memories back but not shift reality back. Reality shifted the day they took over WR&H.

So, okay, we have happy wonderful Connor who can leap buildings in a single bound, has the lovely parents, the great education - and oh, just don't look behind door number 1 - that's Illyria, or door number 2 - that's Gunn, or door number 3 - that's Lorne, or door number 5 that's Wes...or all the other people we don't know of whose lives were changed because of Connor. Also, everything about Connor is a lie. It's a fabrication. Connor's existence is not that different than the wR&H penalty cell, except for one thing, Connor is going into the basement to get his heart ripped out - no, that's everyone else. I liked Connor - I find the character fascinating. But I do not like the idea that it is okay to alter others memories, existence and reality just to save one kid. That said, I'm not sure I'm supposed to.
It's not the last episode of the series. There are four more. Something tells me that Angel is going to pay for this one in blood.

Re: Ah what bugged me about Origin

[arethusa2.livejournal.com]

I totally agree-it was the wrong thing to do. That became absolutely clear to me when I realized that Angel did the same thing Gunn did-unknowingly trade Fred for what he wanted most in the world. And I agree that we're supposed to think he made the wrong decision. We don't get to ignore or try to wipe away the consequences of our actions, which goes for them all-Connor as well. It was heartbreaking to see Angel beg Wes to not destroy the orb-thingy, not let reality intrude upon the happy fantasy Angel imposed on his son, at such a high cost. And also to beg for the trust he had violated.

This also might tie in to the entire experience of being a vampire. It's a cheat too, cheating death, cheating the possibe consequences of one's actions if you believe in an afterlife, which I think Angel did and Spike, especially, does. They took something that didn't belong to them-eternal life-(whether deliberately or unknowingly) and many others paid in blood for their continuing lives. They are living on borrowed time, well passed their allotted years, and I'm afraid that it's time to pay the piper. What happened with Eve gives me hope, though, since her "I'm gonna die" was really "I"m gonna die some day like I'm supposed to."

Re: Ah what bugged me about Origin

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

What happened with Eve gives me hope, though, since her "I'm gonna die" was really "I"m gonna die some day like I'm supposed to."

I think what happened with Eve and Lindsey may be the secret. The idea of love. Eve became mortal because she fell in love. She betrayed the senior partners out of love. She stopped cheating death or manipulating her way around it.

I'm not unconvinced that our trickster characters: Lindsey and Eve may not be the force for good here. They may be the ones pushing at the edges of Angel's fabricated reality.

Origin is a fascinating episode, because so much of it may be a mislead. We are in the point of view of Pinnoccio after all.

Re: Ah what bugged me about Origin

[arethusa2.livejournal.com]

Yey, yes and yes. It's is when Angel ignores the love he has for his friends and they for him that he makes these dreadful mistakes. Cordy rejected earthly love for a "big picture" position. Connor became a killer because he could not feel love. W&H's holding cell brought to mind "A Wrinkle in Time" again-I think Ann1962 pointed this out first?-and that central machine that controlled everyone was defeated by love. It was the one thing IT didn't understand, couldn't control. It's the spanner in the works, that Skip said the Powers couldn't control or take into account either. Buffy's love saved the world from Glory, Xander's love for his friends saved Buffy and Willow, Connor's love for his parents will, I think, help him overcome his traumatic memories.

Re: Ah what bugged me about Origin

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

It may also be why Spike is there this season, or one of the reasons.
Spike changed himself because he fell in love and acknowledged that love. It's why he got the soul. And it's why he wore the amulet and saved the world. Angel keeps denying himself love - because he thinks it will unleash Angelus - he believes love unleashes his monster, as we see him mention in Smile Time. But was it "his love" for Buffy that unleashed Angelus, or Buffy's love for him, the fact he felt bliss for being loved? To love, requires pain and risk - it's what the First Slayer Guide told Buffy in Intervention. Risk the pain.
Angel is afraid to risk it and as a result he remains in the eternal loop symbolized by the penalty box he finds Lindsey in.

It's an odd Catch-22, To break the cycle - Angel must love, but he fears to love because of Angelus underneath. Sort of like Connor and the memories. Will the memories turn Connor into a monster?

Re: Ah what bugged me about Origin

[masqthephlsphr.livejournal.com]

As much as I love Connor, I utterly agree with you about the wrongness of Angel's choice in Home. I don't think he realized what effects that choice might have on his friends, and now that he does, he keeps right on making choices at their expense. It's got to catch up with him. I just hope to god Angel doesn't pay the price he MUST pay by losing the boy he wanted to save once and for all. But it would be poetic.

Re: Ah what bugged me about Origin

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Agree. This is what I find most disturbing about Origin - the fact that it looks so wonderful on the surface. Connor has the life that we wish for him. But, I can't forget the blond boy in the fabricated life Lindsey was living. A fabricated life that the writer keeps referring back to - we have the three people in the van driving back home to their demon free existence (only to have demons crash into them) which echoes the three people in the car (in Underneath) driving into the pristine suburbs. Then, Gunn refusing Hamilton's deal in the fabricated life, while Angel accepts Vail's?

Also earlier in the season we have the contrast of Dana, who like Connor in Home appears monsterous and beyond hope. But Andrew and the slayers show up with a viable alternative to WR&H. Not to mention Lawson who shows up in Why We Fight - asking for help, for a reason.
Angel's solution? Death.

I also can't help but remember the caveman/astronaut debate:
Angel: why can't you see the big picture
Spike: why can't you unleash it, see the passion

Angel keeps repressing things, burying them - the mindwipe is just one example. He also keeps following prophecies or seeking them out - what happens with Vail is another example. He's so busy trying to control everything and everyone, that I think somewhere along the way he forgot what's important. In a way that's what both Jasmine and WR&H do, control everything. Repressing emotion.

I hope we don't see Connor again. Because if we do...I agree killing him in front of Angel is almost poetic justice and far too tempting for a writer to resist. This can't end well. Origin left me with a deep sense of foreboding. (Unspoiled - so have no clue if I'm right.)

Re: Ah what bugged me about Origin

[masqthephlsphr.livejournal.com]

Don't you think Angel got some of his come-uppance in this episode? The things he tried to undo were redone. Connor got his old past back (presumably) and you can't tell me there's not going to be psychological reprecussions from that the boy will have to deal with. He's only smiling on the surface.

And Wesley got his memories back, as will Gunn, as "did" Illyria, and Lorne as well. And as Illyria said, the lack of these memories changed who they were. The return of the memories, no matter how much Wesley says it won't effect him, WILL effect him.

This was sort of the cornerstone of the whole season, these missing memories and their significance. ME isn't going to just let this drop.

Re: Ah what bugged me about Origin

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Oh, he got some of it. But it still ended far too happily, sort of like You're Welcome does...with Angel under the false impression that things are okay. While that bothers me...the fact that it is 5.18 and not 5.22, gives me hope that these things will be addressed. I agree it is the cornerstone of the season - the turning point. There's been four turning pts so far: Destiny, Your Welcome, Hole in The World, and Origin.

I'm not clear on who remembers - do Lorne and Gunn? Or just the people in the room with Angel - ie. Connor, Illyria/Fred and Wes?
Illyria is the one I'm most interested in - because before Wes smashed the glass she only had fragments of Fred's memories, there was still more Illyria than Fred in there, now...whoa! She has a whole five years worth of memories, a duplicate set. The question is how will she process these memories?

If Lorne and Gunn both get them back - how will this affect Gunn's decision to stay in the penalty box? And how will it affect Lorne?

Like you, I'm also curious about Connor. But I'm not sure ME has time left this season to address those issues. Yes, he can forget the past, push it aside, but he has all this power - how do you deal with that? Not to mention the fact that he knows this life isn't the real one.

Re: Ah what bugged me about Origin

[masqthephlsphr.livejournal.com]

Well, Connor's life from this point on will probably be left as a fanfic exercise for the fans. Or maybe ME will get a chance in the future to address it a little, I don't know.

I am of the opinion now that when the box was smashed, it undid the whole memory wipe. Connor got his memories back, as did his new parents (who will have to deal with the situation as Joyce and Buffy did). So did Wesley, Illyria, and Lorne, although we only got to see Wesley and Illyria's reaction because Lorne wasn't around at the end of the episode, and Gunn had no memories at all at the time the box smashed.

Which means reprecussions are to come.