Re-watching Angel S5

[shadowkat]

So, I've been binge-watching Angel S5 on Hulu, with no commercials. I splurged and at 11.95 a month, I can watch any television show that airs on it, with no commercials. It has a lot of old television series. Sort of the TV Land of streaming services.

Anyhow...realized a few things upon re-watching:

* In "You're Welcome" -- seriously can they give Cordy a more revealing shirt? It's unbuttoned to the degree in which her boobs appear to be popping out of it. I swear I saw a nipple in one shot.

Also, Cordy doesn't really do much in the episode, except give Angel a pep talk and say the PTB are still behind him, he still has a destiny, he's still the chosen one. To such an extent -- that I couldn't help but wonder if the Senior Partners of WRH had woken her up to get their gig back on track. Lindsey had successfully begun to push it off the rails. And they needed someone to come in there and expose Lindsey, so they can grab him.

The reason I don't think she was working for the PTB upon re-watch (outside of the fact that I know what the writers had planned down the road, and have read the comics) is two-fold, 1) The PTB don't believe in interfering in that way. 2) She tells Angel to torture the truth out of Eve, and when Angel says no, Harmony does it. (It's Fred who says this isn't a good idea and Angel). 3) It's too neat. Also, almost all the episodes are about how outside or external forces are trying to manipulate Angel and Angel is a puppet. Or manipulate someone. In fact, the writers even get a bit didatic and obvious about it at times -- with Smile Time, where Angel literally becomes a puppet and Soul Purpose, where a parasite is controlling him.

I didn't like the episode. It's not as well written. And a few things don't quite work. It seems designed to do two things, bring Spike back into the fold of WRH, and put Angel back on track.
They needed to pull everyone back to the status quo before they split them up again.


* An interesting pattern has emerged from each and every episode...in every single one, someone in the lead cast is being manipulated or is manipulating someone else -- pulling their strings. And usually the manipulation is being done through the character's desire to be a hero, to be great at something, to have a destiny, to be important. It's all about their egos and insecurities. Every single episode. And in Destiny, Damage, and Why We Fight -- we are reminded at what a master manipulator Angel is, and was -- he enjoyed breaking people down, using their weaknesses against them, and pulling their strings. As he tells Spike in Damage -- "He was in it for the EVIL."

Hmmm.

* The episode after Whedon's "Hole in the World" by Stephen Denight, is actually the better episode.
It has better lines here and there, and is a little less over the top. Whedon goes overboard in Hole in telling the audience how important Fred is to everyone. And then we get the longest death sequence on record...it takes forever, is sappy as all get out, and by the time she died -- I was die already, please, this is just painful. Whedon kills Fred in an insanely painful manner.

Not only does he kill her? He eradicates her soul and insides. (A metaphor, I think for how WRH is eating the gang from within, or corrupting them from within. A point Spike keeps making.)

In Hole, the Spike and Angel partnership is being heavily solidified -- they'd been working up to it through the other episodes. And now, these two are almost in every scene together. And Angel seems to confide more and more in Spike regarding problems and issues, as Spike seems to confide more and more in Angel. There's a bro-romance forming -- and it solidifies a bit here with Fred at the center of it. Both Spike and Angel love Fred -- their love for her unites them.

And there's several good character arcs here :

Spike and Angel, where Spike decides to stay, after Angel offers him a place anywhere in the world (preferably Outer Mongolia). And Angel accepts, because he needs him, whether he wants to admit it or not. (Spike keeps being brought into shows to take over Cordelia's spot. It's hilarious. I actually like him better than Cordelia -- combination of actor and character, Charisma never did much for me and while I liked her character well enough, she ranked at the bottom. This may explain why Angel S5 is my favorite of the seasons, no Cordelia, lots of Spike, and for once in that series history, I liked all the characters and the writing. Sigh. It got cancelled just when I was beginning to really enjoy it. Such is life.)

Wesley -- his character arc is just beginning to take off. Because he has to decide whether to help Illyria be good, and he's not exactly the right man for that job. Considering he was basically stabbing and shooting whomever he felt hurt Fred or prevented him from helping her, including a poor employee who wanted to know if they could work on other things besides just saving Fred. And Illyria asks interesting questions.

[This brings up a few difficulties with the series -- it's too testerone heavy and has a toxic male perspective that would not fly today, and may well date it. The women are often clad for sex appeal. Fred was the only who wasn't, and the writer kills her off, and replaces her with Illyria who is basically clad like a fanboy's wet sex dream come true. She's in skin tight leather, and made up to look amazing. It's the first time we see breast definition. In short she went from looking like the kid sister or lab geek to well a hot female warrior queen. Harmony is also used for sex appeal throughout. And...Spike in an episode is hanging out at a strip club, they go there more than once. Women are in some respects harassed, and objectified in this series -- in ways that I don't think would fly on television now. I didn't notice it as much the first round, now I'm jarred by it. Which shows how times have changed in some respects for the better.

Fred/Illyria don't really have an arc themselves -- they are there for the men. Illyria is there for Wes's characterization. Everything she says reflects one of the male characters. Same with Fred for the most part. I didn't notice it previously, but now...it feels as if she's there to support them.

Another difficulty? Ghod, it's racist. It really is. To such a degree that I'm wondering about the writers. Charles Gunn's arc appears to be -- Flowers for Algernon, except it's...oh he's ashamed that he's not a brilliant lawyer as opposed to the street-smart gang leader. It's very cliche and very stereotypical, and there's one scene in Hole in the World that shouted out at me -- smart Gunn is singing "Gilbert and Sullivan" and when he's caught at it by Wes, he shifts to rap song that he can't remember. Whedon?? Really??? That's the glaring example. This show would not do well now.

I'm still enjoying it, but I feel I have to be critical of these flaws in the ointment. ]

Comments

[atpo_onm]

Mmm, I think after I get through the several DVDs I'm checking out currently (just got done with The Post and The Greatest Showman) I might give that season a spin, it's certainly been quite a few years now since the last time.

In short she went from looking like the kid sister or lab geek to well a hot female warrior queen.

I don't disagree, but speaking as a heterosexual male, wouldn't it be fair to see many of the male characters (Angel, Spike, others) at "hot warrior kings", from a conventional het female perspective?

I will keep your observations in mind, though, when I view these eps again. Interesting.

Hotness debates aside, I loved both the Fred and Illyria characters, and loved in particular writing for Illyria when I was participating in the ATPo Angel Season 6 project, and loved writing about her relationship with Wesley.

And during my original viewing of AtS Season 5, I became more deeply impressed with Amy Acker's work after the Illyria transformation, how she could turn on a dime between one character and the other-- body language, voice, facial expressions. (Kind of a precedent in a less extended way to Tatiana Maslany's work in Orphan Black.

[shadowkat]

I don't disagree, but speaking as a heterosexual male, wouldn't it be fair to see many of the male characters (Angel, Spike, others) at "hot warrior kings", from a conventional het female perspective?

Well no - because the men weren't being sexually harassed on the set by those in power, who are white heterosexual men. Also, they aren't being objectified in every television series and movie over about ages. Nor were they in danger of being raped or sexually harassed by men on the crew and elsewhere.

It's about privilege and power. You as a white heterosexual man have power and privileges that I don't. James Marsters really didn't have to worry about people who had power propositioning him for sex, or harassing him. Sarah Michelle Gellar and Charisma Carpenter did.

Also a lot of information has come to light about how both David Greenwalt and Joss Whedon were having affairs with the female actresses working under them on those sets. Women they could fire and did at the drop of a hat.

That said, I don't dismiss your point out of hand. I've watched one too many Q&A's where Marsters has explained over and over again how Season 6 was dehumanizing. Gellar, who was fully clothed at the time, weirdly said the same thing -- she felt it had dehumanized her as an actress. When both actors aren't nude -- it can feel lonely up there. But the fact that they did it at all...while seemingly brave to the writers who felt, hey, no boundaries, was dehumanizing and painful for the actors. Porn dehumanizes the human being, objectifies it. And that's what happened to James Marsters in Season 6 and to a degree Season 7. He was turned into a sex object -- and it was not a pleasant experience. At first he fully embraced it -- doing the sexy photo shots, etc. Then he had to deal with being ogled by women he did not want to be ogled by. It happens to women all the time, rarely to men. Also women aren't in power -- we don't rule the world, men do -- so even though Marsters was being objectified, he didn't have the worries Charisma did. The most he had to deal with was some middle-aged woman at a con yelling at him to take his shirt off.

I loved both the Fred and Illyria characters, and loved in particular writing for Illyria when I was participating in the ATPo Angel Season 6 project, and loved writing about her relationship with Wesley.

I did too. Except, the point of view is entirely Wesley's. We're never in her point of view. And even prior to that -- the point of view is Angel, or Wes, or Charles.

It's odd really, but Buffy actually did show Xander, Riley and Spike's points of view more often. Also a lot from Angel's perspective and Giles. We only get Cordy and Anya's in one or two episodes if that. And one episode from Harmony.

On Angel - we get a handful from Cordy's perspective and a handful from Fred's.

I didn't notice it on first watch, but it's glaring now. Hole in the World isn't about Fred, it's about the five guys who love her, not for who Fred is, but for what she's done for each of them and made each of them feel like heroes. They don't even appear to know that much about her. Wes has no idea who Mr. Fegglebot is..and hasn't been in her home really. The writer makes some interesting choices here -- he also does it in the Cordy arc. I'm not sure if the writer is aware of these choices and deliberately making a statement about how men view women as an extension of themselves, and for their pleasure, or is completely unaware and thinks that way. It's hard to tell.

But my Ghod, we have Destiny, where Spike and Angel treat Harmony and Drusilla as mere objects for their pleasure or love. Possessions. And Fred is well one of the boys, in her lab coat. Eve is a little girl - sex object as well, who Angel sleeps with...and Nina, beautiful, but turns into a werewolf or dog, which he puts in a cage.

I don't know why I didn't pick up on it the first round. No, I did, others did, I just didn't want to see it -- because I loved other elements. I still do love those elements. But right now, the writing is disturbing me more than a little.

I think we need to be critical of these things, and not just handwave them as well...not that big a deal.

[mefisto]

"And usually the manipulation is being done through the character's desire to be a hero, to be great at something, to have a destiny, to be important. It's all about their egos and insecurities. Every single episode."

Exactly! I made said pretty much this in response to manwitch about 15 years ago: Angel's fatal flaw is that he needs to see himself as a hero. And spot on with his manipulativeness (is that a word?).

"Well no - because the men weren't being sexually harassed on the set by those in power, who are white heterosexual men."

This is generally true, and it's important. But there are at least some cases in which male actors have revealed that they were sexually abused by producers/directors, so I'd modify your statement to that extent. But AFAIK, at least on Buffy, the power dynamics were as you say.

I, btw, didn't know Greenwalt was having an affair with anyone. Who?

Great points about AHITW, which I agree is way overrated. Fred gets treated like Joyce's body in The Body. She seems to be the focus, but in fact the story is about everyone around her. That's ok, and it works fine when there's an actual body and the character is peripheral (not being unkind to Joyce, but yeah). It's less so when the character is still alive (albeit dying) and supposedly significant to the series.

[shadowkat]

"Exactly! I made said pretty much this in response to manwitch about 15 years ago: Angel's fatal flaw is that he needs to see himself as a hero. And spot on with his manipulativeness (is that a word?)."

I don't know -- wrong person to ask on that -- I'm notorious for making up words. LOL!

Yeah, that was what I was trying to tell people on ATPO Board as well -- that Angel and Cordelia and Wes's biggest flaw was the fact that they wanted to be heroes and champions. Buffy is the exact opposite, they really don't want to be heroes and sort of dragged into it. It's only when Willow decides she needs to be the powerful hero-- that she screws up and falls into utter darkness. (Which didn't occur to me until now. But that's the time a lot of the characters fail -- when they "want" to be the hero. To be rewarded for being the hero.)

Angel is set up from the get-go that way. It's really obvious in You're Welcome -- where we see an old vid of Doyle advertising Angel Investigations as "Heroes" or "Champions" for hire. Not private detectives. And Lindsey pits Spike (who doesn't really see himself as a hero nor really wants it) vs. Angel (who desperately does.)

Also, the whole exchange in Damage -- where Spike states he never looked at the victims, he just was in it for the adrenaline rush -- the crunch, the fight, the fun, while Angel states -- that he loved looking at the victims, he couldn't take his eyes off them, that was the whole point. He was in it for the Evil. He kept trying to top himself. Angelus and Angel have this in common -- both wanted to be champions for their side. Angelus saw himself as the hero, the destined one, the champion for EVIL, and Angel sees himself as the hero, destined one for good.

What's really interesting about Buffy and Angel, and why people really should watch both...is on Buffy, which is the lighter series and everyone more or less survives -- we have a bunch of reluctant heroes, who say why in the hell are we saving the world? The earth is doomed. While on Angel, we have a bunch of "champions" who actually believe they've been given the means to save the world and were chosen to do so, and everyone dies on that show and instead of saving the world -- everyone ends up in hell at the end of it.

Big message about not wanting to be the hero. And how it's a bad move.

[shadowkat]

But there are at least some cases in which male actors have revealed that they were sexually abused by producers/directors, so I'd modify your statement to that extent.

True but mainly by male directors/producers. Although there were a few exceptions here and there. A lot of women who got into power sort of followed the examples of the men they learned under.

Although...I do agree that going there the way they did for both shows -- it's rather disturbing that in the early years of Buffy, when the character was 15 -16 years of age, and Gellar 17-18 years of age, along with Eliza Dusku, 15-16 years of age...they had them wearing short short skirts, push up bras and low cut or low buttoned shirts to emphasize sex appeal. One of the reasons I like the latter seasons, is Buffy is less sexualized and they've flipped over to Spike. The need to do either...I find disturbing. You could blame the network to a certain extent for S1-3 regarding the women, they did push for sex appeal. But the nudity and soft-core porn in S6 was all Mutant Enemy. And while I thought it ground-breaking at the time, I'm disturbed by it now and am wondering if it was necessary?

I, btw, didn't know Greenwalt was having an affair with anyone. Who?

Apparently he bragged about it. It was probably Charisma. When he left -- she did too. She even said that she knew her days were numbered when he left, because he had always "protected" her.

Hollywood. Sigh.

[mefisto]

I think I could justify the clothing choices on Buffy: teenage girls in SoCal dress like Buffy. Less so Faith, but she was written to be that way. That, of course, takes the inquiry back a step to why she "had" to be written that way. That's probably an indeterminable question, so I don't know where to go with it.

If you really want the hard-to-justify costume choices, Xena is a good example (though good examples are nearly infinite on this topic).

At the same time, I'd hate for our society to be so concerned about the male gaze that women end up wearing burkhas.

[shadowkat]

I'm not saying that women shouldn't be able to wear what they want. And her clothing choices for the most part are typical...and never bothered me. But why the "push-up" bra that emphasized her bust? (Gellar remarked on it in an interview, actually she complained. Can't remember where I saw it. Just that explained why she suddenly had a bust (she didn't on All My Children and other shows.).

Like it or not -- Buffy emphasized sex appeal. And it at times went over-board in the emphasis. Eliza Dusku was supposed to wear far more revealing outfits and be more sexualized in the series -- but the actress was a practicing Mormon and it went against her religious practices.

There's a huge difference between a woman choosing to wear a short skirt and halter top, and wanting to look sexy, and a male writer/director having her do so. One of the reasons they caved and stopped doing it in the latter seasons was they had troubles covering up all the bruises the actress received while doing the fight scenes.

Note, when Dawn joined, she didn't wear the sexy outfits, and she was around the same age Buffy was when the show began.

[shadowkat]

Great points about AHITW, which I agree is way overrated. Fred gets treated like Joyce's body in The Body. She seems to be the focus, but in fact the story is about everyone around her. That's ok, and it works fine when there's an actual body and the character is peripheral (not being unkind to Joyce, but yeah). It's less so when the character is still alive (albeit dying) and supposedly significant to the series.

Yeah, that was my take as well -- and good comparison. Hadn't thought of The Body.

Joyce was a peripheral character, barely there, most of the time. Mainly because the writers didn't know what to do with parents in the show, so either didn't show them or showed them in a limited capacity -- ie. Joyce.

Fred, however, was a major character -- who is in the credits at the front of the show. Yet they treat her as a body all the way through, worse as the damsel...ugh.

The best parts of that episode? Are the Spike/Angel scenes. I'd go so far as to say they are the only good bits. And apparently the caveman/astronaut bit was partially improvised by the actors. Everything else..is cringe-inducing. The Wes/Fred scenes...just, ugh, he's treating her like a child. She's in a little girl's room. She's hunting for a stuffed bunny that she can't remember the name of.
And he's reading her The Secret Garden...LOL! This is a female scientist, who is smart, and been in a demon dimension. She's not a little girl.

Meanwhile, and this I thought was sort of interesting...
Charles and Knox are arguing over how Fred got that way. Apparently Knox loved "her exterior" not Fred's interior, so much that he wanted to give her "shell" to his God, knowing his God would destroy everything inside it. Meanwhile Gunn unknowingly signed off on something inside customs, so that he can have his mind filled with legal data..because otherwise he sees himself as nothing but a "hollow" shell.
He wants to be filled with knowledge, in part because he may believe that's why Fred broke up with him -- he's not smart like she is. Just meat. Just a shell. And in doing so -- he unintentionally causes Fred to be turned into a shell and filled with a demonic knowledge and essence.

But the sexism and racism under that is...I'm wondering if it is intentional or unintentional on the writer's part? I can't quite tell.