Shipping and Fandom
Feb. 6th, 2019 08:33 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
shadowkatThere's an article about fanfiction, fandom and shipping in the new romance magazine Blush, that's just been launched. (Got it via Smartbitches. )
1. Critiques?
* Damn print is minuscule. Today's magazines have decided to save space by doing 8 font type size and four to five columns on a page. Making it impossible to read. It's why I've given up on buying magazines and am thisclose to cancelling my subscription to EW (well among other reasons but that's a whole different discussion.)
* Also, she's pretty general in the article. And the focus is on mainstream series, not the true cult stuff. I'm sorry X-files, Star Wars, Harry Potter and Twilight are far too popular to be termed cult. I had a lengthy debate about this with a guy I dated briefly at evil library company --it didn't work. For a lot of reasons, I won't go into. I sort of intimidated him. So did my friend. It was hilarious. Anywho, what I argued was that a series that is massively popular, gotten awards, and the mainstream is into on some level is NOT cult. Cult is the X-men, which granted is popular to a degree -- but just with comic fans. The Avengers is mainstream -- because of the movies. Spiderman -- mainstream. Superman and Batman mainstream. Cyclops? Magneto? Phoenix? Shadowkat? Cult. Same deal with Buffy -- Buffy is cult. X-files is mainstream -- it was nominated for Emmy's come on. Game of Thrones is mainstream, Battle Star Galatica is cult for the same reasons. Sopranos - mainstream, The Wire - cult. Star Wars - mainstream, Star Trek cult, although I'd say Doctor Who is more cult than either. If a mainstream newspaper, magazine, etc is writing a lot about it - it's not cult. If it is nominated for Emmy's? Not cult. If it is nominated for Hugos? Cult.)
2. Wrong-headed shipping or shipping bad guys with heroes...such as Kylo Ren and Rei, or Draco Malfoy and Hermonine, or Angelus and Buffy.
Quibbles aside..I don't ship the way the person being interviewed does. I don't really do or tend to do "wrong-headed" shipping. With a few rare exceptions -- and usually those are one's that fit the story thread and are canon. I don't tend to ship counter to the canon.
Not even Spuffy was really wrong-headed from my perspective (although that could be the closest that I've ever come to it from a general perspective, since I didn't get into the ship until sometime after/around Once More with Feeling, and possibly Intervention in s5.) I was not shipping the characters before Spike sacrificed himself for her and attempted to change. And I was a Buffy/Angel shipper up until I Will Always Remember You -- when Angel royally pissed me off and proved he was another narcissistic egotistical asshole with a hero complex, who'd only break her heart and anyone else who gave a shit about him -- repeatedly to boost his own worthless ego. From my perspective from that episode forward -- shipping Buffy/Angel was wrong-headed shipping and against the canon and story-thread. (And no, you won't change my mind on that -- I've read every argument, and none have convinced. Various people have tried. If my own brother can't do it -- you can't.)
I actually stopped watching Angel after that episode and didn't come back until Faith popped up in a cross-over, then watched intermittently until friends on a posting board coaxed me into watching it again. Why? I had major problems with Angel. The only way I could watch the series was pretty much how I watched Breaking Bad, which was with the caveat that it is was a series about an anti-hero, pure noir, and I wasn't supposed to see any of the characters as heroes, and of course everyone including Angel would fall into the Abyss...this series wasn't going to end well for anyone. Turns out that was the correct approach -- the writers were writing a pure anti-hero noir series. (They pretty much admitted to it.))
3. Canon vs. non-canonical shipping (not to be confused with m/m or f/f slash - which can be canonical or non-canonical depending on the series.).
Per the above, I ship with the canon or with the story-thread. And don't have a lot of patience for shipping against the story-thread. It's rare that I'll ship characters that aren't going to end up together, aren't written to be romantic love interests, and aren't written to be friends. And if they are friends or lovers or married and the story-thread leads to their inevitable separation and the demise of their relationship in a convincing manner that tracks -- and shows why, doesn't tell, I'll go along with it. (See Buffy/Angel above as an example. The writers successfully broke that ship up for me in S1 Angel.)
I do ship slash or m/m or f/f but there has to be something subtextual in the series that lends to it. For example -- I can see Xander/Spike together -- Xander, I could see as gay. The writers appeared to be on the fence at various points. Spike read as clearly bisexual, as did Angel -- hello Vampires. Just as Darla and Dru read as bisexual. I can totally see both Angel/Spike and Darla/Dru getting it on. The subtext is there. Killing Eve? I can see Eve and Villenelle going there. Also it's in the subtext of Vampire Diaries with Damon/Alaric, and Stefan/Mikalas.
I've also shipped non-canonical gen usually when the writer has failed to convince me of the pairing she/he prefers -- Harry/Luna Lovegood. (Sorry Harry Potter is an excellent example of a series where I never bought the canonical ship --Ginny/Harry and Ron/Hermoine never quite worked for me.) Another series that didn't do a great job of selling the ship? Hunger Games. The writer had to bend over backwards to convince me to go with her ship. Because the character of Katniss appeared to be going counter to it. YA -- often has this problem. I think because it has a tendency to fall into romantic cliche or tropes too easily and the writers often don't do a good job of building the romances.
In short, generally speaking, I tend to go wherever the writers take me. In most cases if the writers want me to love a relationship -- I will if the writing and acting is there to support it. There are a few exceptions to this rule -- and most of those are in long-running serials such as comic books and soap operas, where often a new writer will come on board and decide for no good reason to throw two characters together that just don't work. Examples? Wolverine and Jean Grey (eww, and that was Chris Claremount who did it because he was upset Marvel broke up Madelyn Pryor and Scott Summers and retconned his Phoenix epic.) Dude? Characters before ego, please. Also, Scott Summers and Psycholock -- did not work. For the same reasons Wolverine and Jean don't. I'm not sure anyone works with Jean but Scott. What appeals to her about Scott -- is he's willing to let her into his head. No other guy is. Wolverine certainly isn't. There's a trust level that's lacking elsewhere. Scott on the other hand did work with Emma Frost -- for the same reasons, they'd established a level of trust for a time -- until it was broken by her own insecurities and the fact that he'd gotten in way over his head.
4. Where the line should be drawn regarding shipping...
Where I get annoyed with shipping is when the shippers in question attempt to influence the writers of a series to give their ship an HEA, even if it goes against the story-thread. A strong writer will ignore their fans and do what they please. But television writers have an annoying habit of catering to whiny fans or the squeaky wheels, thinking they are the majority. (They aren't.) And have at times ruined their series. Whedon kept his love triangle vague because of shippers -- instead of letting Buffy decisively choose one or the other, he stretched it out and kept teasing. It was annoying. Write fanfic, but don't petition the writers.
I actually preferred how Vampire Diaries dealt with it -- which was -- to make the story more about the Stefan/Damon relationship or the Bonnie/Elena/Caroline friendship than the romantic ships. And to decisively put Damon and Elena together, and Stefan and Caroline. It had love triangles, but it resolved them quickly and ignored the whiny shippers who missed their ship. Basically telling them - move on or go away. Kudos.
If you ship against canon, and I have on occasion, the same rule applies -- you know going in that you are shipping against the story-thread. If your ship has sunk and become shark-feed, you sort of have to move on or just write fanfic.
5. My ships or the one's that I have shipped the hardest in recent years and still do to an extent?
Canonical Ships:
* Spuffy or Spike/Buffy ( I don't really like merging the names, I find it confusing.)
* Cyclops/Jean Grey and Cyclops/Emma Frost
* Spike/Angel -- weirdly I only like Angel when he's paired up with Spike. Spike like Faith calls him on his stupidity. [ETA: not entirely true, I will also ship Angel with Darla, who like Spike calls him on his stupidity, and Lindsey...which is just fun.]
*ETA: Lilah/Wes...because that's just crack
* Apollo/Starbuck -- which was admittedly more platonic
There's a bunch in General Hospital that I won't bore anyone with. Also, a bunch in the X-men comics and Marvel Verse.
* Damon/Elena, Stefan/Caroline,
* John Crichton/Areyn Sun
* Kate/Curran
*Doctor Who/Doctor Song
*Amy/Rory
*Captain Jack/Captain John
* Maze/Doctor Linda
Nothing new though. I don't ship much any longer. Shipping for television shows is ridiculously painful.
Non-canonical?
* Faith/Willow
* Xander/Spike
* Apollo/Starbuck (non-platonic)
* Rei/Poe - Star Wars -- although I've a feeling they may go there yet. (I'm possibly the only person in fandom who is turned off by Kylo Ren/Rei.)
* Cyclops/Wolverine -- that pairing would be interesting. (Also there is subtext)
* Merlin/Arthur (Merlin series...which had oodles of subtext -- and honestly I thought there was more chemistry between them than the actual pairings.)
* Morgana/Gwen (also Merlin series..see Merlin/Arthur)
* Damon/Alaric
* Harry/Luna Lovegood
But I can't say I was passionate about any of them.
1. Critiques?
* Damn print is minuscule. Today's magazines have decided to save space by doing 8 font type size and four to five columns on a page. Making it impossible to read. It's why I've given up on buying magazines and am thisclose to cancelling my subscription to EW (well among other reasons but that's a whole different discussion.)
* Also, she's pretty general in the article. And the focus is on mainstream series, not the true cult stuff. I'm sorry X-files, Star Wars, Harry Potter and Twilight are far too popular to be termed cult. I had a lengthy debate about this with a guy I dated briefly at evil library company --it didn't work. For a lot of reasons, I won't go into. I sort of intimidated him. So did my friend. It was hilarious. Anywho, what I argued was that a series that is massively popular, gotten awards, and the mainstream is into on some level is NOT cult. Cult is the X-men, which granted is popular to a degree -- but just with comic fans. The Avengers is mainstream -- because of the movies. Spiderman -- mainstream. Superman and Batman mainstream. Cyclops? Magneto? Phoenix? Shadowkat? Cult. Same deal with Buffy -- Buffy is cult. X-files is mainstream -- it was nominated for Emmy's come on. Game of Thrones is mainstream, Battle Star Galatica is cult for the same reasons. Sopranos - mainstream, The Wire - cult. Star Wars - mainstream, Star Trek cult, although I'd say Doctor Who is more cult than either. If a mainstream newspaper, magazine, etc is writing a lot about it - it's not cult. If it is nominated for Emmy's? Not cult. If it is nominated for Hugos? Cult.)
2. Wrong-headed shipping or shipping bad guys with heroes...such as Kylo Ren and Rei, or Draco Malfoy and Hermonine, or Angelus and Buffy.
Quibbles aside..I don't ship the way the person being interviewed does. I don't really do or tend to do "wrong-headed" shipping. With a few rare exceptions -- and usually those are one's that fit the story thread and are canon. I don't tend to ship counter to the canon.
Not even Spuffy was really wrong-headed from my perspective (although that could be the closest that I've ever come to it from a general perspective, since I didn't get into the ship until sometime after/around Once More with Feeling, and possibly Intervention in s5.) I was not shipping the characters before Spike sacrificed himself for her and attempted to change. And I was a Buffy/Angel shipper up until I Will Always Remember You -- when Angel royally pissed me off and proved he was another narcissistic egotistical asshole with a hero complex, who'd only break her heart and anyone else who gave a shit about him -- repeatedly to boost his own worthless ego. From my perspective from that episode forward -- shipping Buffy/Angel was wrong-headed shipping and against the canon and story-thread. (And no, you won't change my mind on that -- I've read every argument, and none have convinced. Various people have tried. If my own brother can't do it -- you can't.)
I actually stopped watching Angel after that episode and didn't come back until Faith popped up in a cross-over, then watched intermittently until friends on a posting board coaxed me into watching it again. Why? I had major problems with Angel. The only way I could watch the series was pretty much how I watched Breaking Bad, which was with the caveat that it is was a series about an anti-hero, pure noir, and I wasn't supposed to see any of the characters as heroes, and of course everyone including Angel would fall into the Abyss...this series wasn't going to end well for anyone. Turns out that was the correct approach -- the writers were writing a pure anti-hero noir series. (They pretty much admitted to it.))
3. Canon vs. non-canonical shipping (not to be confused with m/m or f/f slash - which can be canonical or non-canonical depending on the series.).
Per the above, I ship with the canon or with the story-thread. And don't have a lot of patience for shipping against the story-thread. It's rare that I'll ship characters that aren't going to end up together, aren't written to be romantic love interests, and aren't written to be friends. And if they are friends or lovers or married and the story-thread leads to their inevitable separation and the demise of their relationship in a convincing manner that tracks -- and shows why, doesn't tell, I'll go along with it. (See Buffy/Angel above as an example. The writers successfully broke that ship up for me in S1 Angel.)
I do ship slash or m/m or f/f but there has to be something subtextual in the series that lends to it. For example -- I can see Xander/Spike together -- Xander, I could see as gay. The writers appeared to be on the fence at various points. Spike read as clearly bisexual, as did Angel -- hello Vampires. Just as Darla and Dru read as bisexual. I can totally see both Angel/Spike and Darla/Dru getting it on. The subtext is there. Killing Eve? I can see Eve and Villenelle going there. Also it's in the subtext of Vampire Diaries with Damon/Alaric, and Stefan/Mikalas.
I've also shipped non-canonical gen usually when the writer has failed to convince me of the pairing she/he prefers -- Harry/Luna Lovegood. (Sorry Harry Potter is an excellent example of a series where I never bought the canonical ship --Ginny/Harry and Ron/Hermoine never quite worked for me.) Another series that didn't do a great job of selling the ship? Hunger Games. The writer had to bend over backwards to convince me to go with her ship. Because the character of Katniss appeared to be going counter to it. YA -- often has this problem. I think because it has a tendency to fall into romantic cliche or tropes too easily and the writers often don't do a good job of building the romances.
In short, generally speaking, I tend to go wherever the writers take me. In most cases if the writers want me to love a relationship -- I will if the writing and acting is there to support it. There are a few exceptions to this rule -- and most of those are in long-running serials such as comic books and soap operas, where often a new writer will come on board and decide for no good reason to throw two characters together that just don't work. Examples? Wolverine and Jean Grey (eww, and that was Chris Claremount who did it because he was upset Marvel broke up Madelyn Pryor and Scott Summers and retconned his Phoenix epic.) Dude? Characters before ego, please. Also, Scott Summers and Psycholock -- did not work. For the same reasons Wolverine and Jean don't. I'm not sure anyone works with Jean but Scott. What appeals to her about Scott -- is he's willing to let her into his head. No other guy is. Wolverine certainly isn't. There's a trust level that's lacking elsewhere. Scott on the other hand did work with Emma Frost -- for the same reasons, they'd established a level of trust for a time -- until it was broken by her own insecurities and the fact that he'd gotten in way over his head.
4. Where the line should be drawn regarding shipping...
Where I get annoyed with shipping is when the shippers in question attempt to influence the writers of a series to give their ship an HEA, even if it goes against the story-thread. A strong writer will ignore their fans and do what they please. But television writers have an annoying habit of catering to whiny fans or the squeaky wheels, thinking they are the majority. (They aren't.) And have at times ruined their series. Whedon kept his love triangle vague because of shippers -- instead of letting Buffy decisively choose one or the other, he stretched it out and kept teasing. It was annoying. Write fanfic, but don't petition the writers.
I actually preferred how Vampire Diaries dealt with it -- which was -- to make the story more about the Stefan/Damon relationship or the Bonnie/Elena/Caroline friendship than the romantic ships. And to decisively put Damon and Elena together, and Stefan and Caroline. It had love triangles, but it resolved them quickly and ignored the whiny shippers who missed their ship. Basically telling them - move on or go away. Kudos.
If you ship against canon, and I have on occasion, the same rule applies -- you know going in that you are shipping against the story-thread. If your ship has sunk and become shark-feed, you sort of have to move on or just write fanfic.
5. My ships or the one's that I have shipped the hardest in recent years and still do to an extent?
Canonical Ships:
* Spuffy or Spike/Buffy ( I don't really like merging the names, I find it confusing.)
* Cyclops/Jean Grey and Cyclops/Emma Frost
* Spike/Angel -- weirdly I only like Angel when he's paired up with Spike. Spike like Faith calls him on his stupidity. [ETA: not entirely true, I will also ship Angel with Darla, who like Spike calls him on his stupidity, and Lindsey...which is just fun.]
*ETA: Lilah/Wes...because that's just crack
* Apollo/Starbuck -- which was admittedly more platonic
There's a bunch in General Hospital that I won't bore anyone with. Also, a bunch in the X-men comics and Marvel Verse.
* Damon/Elena, Stefan/Caroline,
* John Crichton/Areyn Sun
* Kate/Curran
*Doctor Who/Doctor Song
*Amy/Rory
*Captain Jack/Captain John
* Maze/Doctor Linda
Nothing new though. I don't ship much any longer. Shipping for television shows is ridiculously painful.
Non-canonical?
* Faith/Willow
* Xander/Spike
* Apollo/Starbuck (non-platonic)
* Rei/Poe - Star Wars -- although I've a feeling they may go there yet. (I'm possibly the only person in fandom who is turned off by Kylo Ren/Rei.)
* Cyclops/Wolverine -- that pairing would be interesting. (Also there is subtext)
* Merlin/Arthur (Merlin series...which had oodles of subtext -- and honestly I thought there was more chemistry between them than the actual pairings.)
* Morgana/Gwen (also Merlin series..see Merlin/Arthur)
* Damon/Alaric
* Harry/Luna Lovegood
But I can't say I was passionate about any of them.
no subject
Date: 2019-02-07 05:39 am (UTC)And I remember thinking it was significant when Harry shared his first kiss with Cho that he thought of nargles (which obviously was associated with Luna) and then in Book 6 when Harry's in a deep funk and took Luna with him to the Slug party, he actually broke out of his broodiness because of something she said. Anyway, I was really bummed when the books went the predictable tied-up-with-a-bow ending ship-wise.
Shout out to Buffy/Spike, Apollo/Starbuck, Damon/Elena, Maze/Dr Linda and Merlin/Arthur! I love each and every one of those ships to pieces! Oh, and I completely agree about Angel/Spike...I didn't ship it to the point of reading fic about them, but I did think that was the only possible pairing for Angel that would be of interest to me.
no subject
Date: 2019-02-07 01:50 pm (UTC)In the early books of HP, I assumed JK Rowling would go the pat route and pair Hermione with Ron and Harry with Ginny simply so they could all be one big Weasley family at the end. But then around Book 5/6, I began to hope Luna would be the one for Harry instead since they just seemed to naturally mesh really well together.
Yep, had the same reaction. I don't think Rowlings knows how to build realistic romantic relationships. Because it felt pat, but also odd. Hermoine and Ron, and Harry and Ginny felt too much like siblings. Also we barely see Harry and Ginny together in the books, so much of their relationship took place off-page. Making me thing that it just isn't how the writer's mind works, and she's more interested in building family dynamics. And both Harry and Hermoine appeared to desire family.
Shout out to Buffy/Spike, Apollo/Starbuck, Damon/Elena, Maze/Dr Linda and Merlin/Arthur! I love each and every one of those ships to pieces! Oh, and I completely agree about Angel/Spike...I didn't ship it to the point of reading fic about them, but I did think that was the only possible pairing for Angel that would be of interest to me.
Yay. A like-minded soul. I can't say I shipped A/S enough to read much fic on them either. The fic I did read was more Spuffy fic that sort of had them together like well the show did. I've only really read fic on Buffy/Spike and Apollo/Starbuck, although I did read some fic with Merlin/Arthur. Damon/Elena was more vids, same with Spike/Angel and Maze/Linda for some reason.
no subject
Date: 2019-02-07 02:34 pm (UTC)Not the only one.
"Harry/Luna Lovegood"
I thought this too, though I eventually came around to Harry/Ginny (books 6 and 7 sell this better). The real problem I have is Ron/Hermione. Just no.
no subject
Date: 2019-02-08 03:02 am (UTC)I have to admit that Deathly Hallows changed my mind. Rowlings apparently picked up on the fact that readers had interpreted the Luna/Harry relationship the wrong way -- and went out of her way to remedy that in the last two books.
Ron/Hermoine...didn't bother me all that much. I was ambivalent. They do have a sort of Willow/Xander vibe though which is a bit too much like siblings...it's the problem with the friends to lovers trope in a lot of fiction -- if built wrong, it feels weirdly incestuous.
no subject
Date: 2019-02-07 09:46 pm (UTC)I don't really do or tend to do "wrong-headed" shipping. With a few rare exceptions -- and usually those are one's that fit the story thread and are canon. I don't tend to ship counter to the canon.
Same! As a rule, I prefer to go with canon wherever possible - unless it's a crack ship, in which case I'll happily go along with anything.
It's rare that I'll ship characters that aren't going to end up together, aren't written to be romantic love interests, and aren't written to be friends.
Hmm... this depends on how you define "ship". Because I ship a whole bunch of pairings that aren't going to end up together – but only in the time period when they were together.
I've seen some people say "I ship these characters" meaning "I want these characters to end up as end-game", and others say "I ship these characters" meaning "I love reading fic in which these characters are together, and squeeing over their on-screen chemistry". I mostly don't care who ends up as end-game, but I love enjoying them together while they are.
Buffy/Angel, for instance – I absolutely agree with you that I Will Remember You torpedoed any future for their relationship and made me not want them together ever again. But I still like reading fic of them together during season 3.
I can see Xander/Spike together -- Xander, I could see as gay.
Interesting. Xander is one of the few characters who I definitely see as very straight. (I've read exactly two slash fics of Xander that I liked, both Xander/Giles.)
(Sorry Harry Potter is an excellent example of a series where I never bought the canonical ship --Ginny/Harry and Ron/Hermoine never quite worked for me.) Another series that didn't do a great job of selling the ship? Hunger Games. The writer had to bend over backwards to convince me to go with her ship. Because the character of Katniss appeared to be going counter to it.
I... react in completely the opposite way to all of these. Ron/Hermione was exactly what I wanted from the book's ships, and worked superbly. So did Harry/Ginny. And I prefer Katniss with Gale, but ended up shipping Katniss with Peeta because I was convinced that Katniss shipped them.
With regards to the Harry Potter ships: my sister and I have a theory about shipping (in general) whereby all ships can be categorised as "romantic soulmates", "snarkers", "best friends", or "pragmatists". I get very excited about snarky ships (like Buffy/Spike or Ron/Hermione) and pragmatic romances (like Willow/Kennedy or Harry/Ginny), but soulmatey relationships or romances that develop out of friendships do almost nothing for me.
Spike/Angel -- weirdly I only like Angel when he's paired up with Spike. Spike like Faith calls him on his stupidity.
Much as I love Spike/Angel, my preferred Angel slash ship is actually Angel/Lindsey! It's cracky, but I love it. And they had so much chemistry!
no subject
Date: 2019-02-08 02:58 am (UTC)unless it's a crack ship, in which case I'll happily go along with anything.
Hmmm...this is true of me as well. For example Spike/Xander is a crack ship, yet it works for me. (And yes, I can see Lindsey/Angel -- I've actually read that fic.)
I've seen some people say "I ship these characters" meaning "I want these characters to end up as end-game", and others say "I ship these characters" meaning "I love reading fic in which these characters are together, and squeeing over their on-screen chemistry". I mostly don't care who ends up as end-game, but I love enjoying them together while they are.
Yes, this. I've been known to ship characters for the moment. I shipped Xander/Cordy, Oz/Willow, and Willow/Tara when they were together. Also I adored Lilah/Wes -- even though I knew there was no way it could last.
Buffy/Angel, for instance – I absolutely agree with you that I Will Remember You torpedoed any future for their relationship and made me not want them together ever again. But I still like reading fic of them together during season 3.
That's a really good example actually. I did read fic for S2 and S3 Buffy/Angel, actually all the way up..I Will Always Remember You, when the writers managed to torpedo their relationship. LOL! And I do enjoy fic written during S2-S3.
(Unlike a lot of Spuffy fans..I didn't really ship Spuffy until late S5 after Intervention.)
my sister and I have a theory about shipping (in general) whereby all ships can be categorised as "romantic soulmates", "snarkers", "best friends", or "pragmatists". I get very excited about snarky ships (like Buffy/Spike or Ron/Hermione) and pragmatic romances (like Willow/Kennedy or Harry/Ginny), but soulmatey relationships or romances that develop out of friendships do almost nothing for me.
Hmmm..interesting. I read a lot of romance novels, so know romantic tropes/pairings well. So - I do agree with you for the most part, but I'd break it down a little more?
* we have the enemies to lovers trope, or banter -- which is Spike/Buffy
* The brother/sister banter -- or friendly banter Hermoine/Ron (actually I was ambivalent, mainly because I didn't really see either with anyone else, but I felt they had a brother/sister vibe...so it was hard to care one way or another?)
* Pragmatic -- which is basically, we get together because our families want us to be, or it has been arranged on some level -- the marriage of convenience...which can work. It depends. I didn't think Rowlings built it well..
* Friends to lovers -- this works if you don't go overboard on the soul-matey bit. Also you need to build the physical chemistry, otherwise it feels like a brother/sister pairing (see Harry/Hermoine, Willow/Xander, Xander/Buffy...). But I've seen it work -- Cyclops/Jean Grey works - although Colossus/Kitty Pryde (shadowcat) never did for me. So too did Aeryn/Crichton (although that had more banter.)
The difficulty is when you have a big brother/little sister vibe, or the friendship has a feel to it that makes one think of siblings, Xander and Buffy felt like siblings. She even tells him that she loves him like a brother.
Lasting romantic relationships (or so I've found) build from good friendships -- but only if it's not the brother/sister or brother/brother, sister/sister vibe.
* Soulmates -- ugh. This has been overdone in fiction. My problem with it -- is the writer doesn't do the hard work to build it. It's almost a love at first sight vibe or we're destined. (Vampire Diaries made fun of it. So too did Buffy, actually.) It turns me off. I like relationships that are built over time and further character. That said, it can work -- Peeta/Katniss had a soul-mate vibe by the end of Hunger Games, which the writer did work hard to build. (She sold me by Mockingjay. I was Team#Gale up to Mockingjay, Gale/Katniss was the friends to lovers vibe..which I tend to prefer to soulmates, but like I said above, it can fall flat.)
Much as I love Spike/Angel, my preferred Angel slash ship is actually Angel/Lindsey! It's cracky, but I love it. And they had so much chemistry!
This is true. They did. Spike/Angel had more of a sibling vibe or mentor/protegee, while Angel/Lindsey had the enemies to lovers vibe. Only other ship that really worked with Angel was Darla.
[Edited to get rid of the awful space after the text.]
no subject
Date: 2019-02-07 10:02 pm (UTC)The Blush piece is most interesting for the fact that the discussion of ships and fanworks has become so mainstream that it can support people who write about them regularly. Definitely a change from pre-2005.
no subject
Date: 2019-02-08 02:22 am (UTC)Agreed, don't see it. I had to look up Hux -- because I forgot who he was. LOL!
At one point, he does look at Kylo and say, uh, I think he's dead (regarding Luke), you can stop now -- lets go after the more important targets and stop wasting time with the distraction. (That's the only thing I remember -- in Last Jedi -- mainly because I thought it was hilarious.) But that's hardly enough to build a ship on.
K/R -- is your standard, good girl/evil guy who is the son of girl's father figure trope. That's all over romantic fiction. But Star Wars is a lot of things, a romance? It's not.
I'm personally hoping that Star Wars will go against the expected plot laid out in the original trilogy and never redeem Kylo.
Agreed. I can't stand him. It wasn't until I saw Black KKKlansman that I realized that yes, Adam Driver can actually act, and is somewhat attractive and not a whiny putz. (I saw him in a couple of episodes of Girls...before I gave up on it.)
The Blush piece is most interesting for the fact that the discussion of ships and fanworks has become so mainstream that it can support people who write about them regularly.
That's what I picked up on as well -- Harry Potter really took fanfic mainstream. (Cassandra Clare's Shadowhunter series is based on her Draco Malfoy fanfic. As is
another sci-fi series..that I can't remember the name of.) While Twilight made it explode and become profitable. After Twilight -- publishers started going to fan conventions and eliciting fic from Big Fan Names. (I know because someone told me that they knew various people who had been approached.)
I remember in 2001-2002 that it was a dirty little secret and publisher's wouldn't touch anyone who wrote with a ten-foot pole. Writers didn't admit to writing it. Now, it's all the rage. Will state when it was dirty little secret, people were less policed on certain sites. Fanfic.net pretty much published everything without censorship, as did a lot of fan sites.
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Date: 2019-02-09 12:08 am (UTC)Speaking of BtVS - the first episode I watched was Intervention, and it kind of sealed my fascination with Buffy/Spike. Still there, still love them together.
Beside that - Spike/Angel and Darla/Dru, definitely, but also Buffy/Faith. Fascinating relationship even without shipping, but the subtext is there, too.
As much as I like Harry Potter books, never cared about shipping there. I don't feel much for canon pairs, don't mind them, but whatever, never was interested to explore outside of canon. Harry/Luna do have interesting friendship, though, I loved their scenes together.
I do hate Kylo Ren/Rei, too. But I am not sure what I want from the next movie shipping-wise.
My newest fannish obsession is Avatar The Last Airbender (still watching The Legend of Korra), and I am enjoying canonical relationships too much to think about other ships. (also, characters are younger teenagers, so it feels weird to pair them with random people - the same problem as with Harry Potter for me)
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Date: 2019-02-09 02:52 am (UTC)I find Buffy/Faith interesting as well...the duality is interesting. I don't ship them, exactly, but I agree with you on that.
Can't say I ever really romantically shipped anyone in Harry Potter -- outside of Luna/Harry, which was more a friendship ship --- from my perspective the characters were too young to ship. It was hard for me to envision them in well..romantic relationships for some reason.
Avatar the Last Airbender -- the animated series? I caught some of it. It's well done. The animation is great as is the characterization. But I lost track of it.
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Date: 2019-02-09 04:11 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2019-02-10 04:21 am (UTC)