GoT Episode 8..4 - Game of Thrones

[shadowkat]

Great episode, except for one thing...



They killed another dragon. Honestly, I do not care if they kill all the humans, I want the dragons to survive.

If they don't kill off Greyjoy in the next episode, I'm going to be annoyed.

Also beginning to think Jamie may kill Cersei after all -- although I think it's a better twist if Ayra kills Jamie and does it, or Ayra kills Garren and does it.

Brienne: Don't leave stay with me, Jamie. You're a good man.
Jamie: No, I'm really not. (lists all the hateful things he's done for Cersei, then leaves.)

ME: Brienne, seriously, you chose the wrong guy. Again. There was a perfectly good wildling man who liked you.

Honestly it was hard to care. We all knew he'd leave for King's Landing eventually.
And I can't say I was shipping Brienne and Jamie..actually I was sort of shocked by it. Seemed sort of out of character for both of them. I was shipping Brienne with the wildling guy. Thank god - they chose not to show us their sex scenes. I'm guessing the actors have a nudity clause in their contracts? Also is it just me or are all the sex scenes somewhat awkward this season...and subdued?

Dany: Don't tell anyone you are my nephew. We'll be fine.
Jon: I don't know if I can do that.
Dany: You'll ruin us.
Jon: Oh, I can trust my sisters.
Dany: Not Sansa.

Dany is not dumb. Jon however...

Ghost will survive -- thank you, Jon for sending Ghost with the wildlings, wise move.

I adored Tyrion and Varys' discussion. They aren't wrong. But I do wish that not all the strong female characters in this story were a wee bit on the deranged side, and worshipped at the altar of the vengeance god, so heavily.

I do however agree with Varys -- give the power to the person who does not want it.
Never give it to one who does.

Oh dear, half of King's Landing is going to burn in the next episode, I also think, Greyjoy will lose his fleet. I know Dany and company will win, because they lost the first battle. It's going to go down pretty much the same way the Night King battle did -- with the Starks taking out Cersei.

Comments

[rogin]

Also is it just me or are all the sex scenes somewhat awkward this season...and subdued?

It's because the sex on GOT was always tittytainment, It's all about showing off pretty people. The Bronn scene in the first Ep was typical GOT sex.

You never see much of deformed, crippled, non standard pretty bodies.

Arya is too young to make a pornstar out of her and Jaime and Brienne are too old and battered.

They were never very good at doing realistic sex scenes.

[shadowkat]

To be honest? I don't think television and film in general are good at realistic sex scenes. I find them deathly dull, except for a few exceptions, and those are art films. Buffy did manage to do really good sex scenes, weirdly enough, although the people were pretty -- the sex scenes didn't feel gratutious and did further the story and metaphors. (An exception.) HBO does horrible sex scenes, I think it goes back to HBO's origins as an adult cable network that could do it, when broadcast couldn't?

But here -- they just felt weirdly choreographed and awkward. Sex scenes are like fight scenes -- choreographed dance numbers. And I actually think it is harder to write or choreograph a good sex scene than action/fight scene. Mainly because most sex doesn't involve conflict or really further character, unless you make it well "violent" such as a rape, or rough sex, or hate sex, or well... It's just well sex -- and it's not meant to be a spectator sport. Loving sex can be rather boring to watch or read -- no conflict. (I know I've read a lot of sex scenes -- and seriously less is more. It's better if you just suggest.)

I do find it interesting though that they showed Cersei and Jamie in detail, Tyrion and his whores in detail, Bronn and his, Theon and his, and the rape sequences (which I could have done without -- I fast-forwarded, even GRRM didn't feel the need to show the rape scenes or torture scenes in his books). Also Dany and the Drofaki. But very little of Dany/Jon, Brienne/Jamie or Ayra/Gendry -- which were more consensual and not well ...

So yeah, I agree -- they suck at realistic sex scenes. Battle scenes no problem, but realistic loving sex scenes...now what that says about the writers and our society in general isn't something I'm sure I want to contemplate.

[rogin]

It's better in European television, but with the US shows it is usually heavily censored or pornographic.

I do find it interesting though that they showed Cersei and Jamie in detail, Tyrion and his whores in detail, Bronn and his

They never show Jaimie's crippled arm during sex and they never show Tyrion either, just the women, same for Bronn, who was mostly clothed. The lack of Dany/Jon was because of her nudity clause in the later seasons. And with Arya I think it was that if they don't go for porn, they don't know what to do. And they knew that porn would ick out the viewers because they know the actress as a child.

It's a Madonna/whore complex problem I think. I wonder what it does to kids. I know, I really had to unlearn the notion that only pretty and young people have sex as a teenager. Must be even worse for the kids today.

[mefisto]

Emilia Clarke doesn't have a nudity clause and never has. That's an internet rumor based on a misunderstanding of what a different actress said.

As for the Arya/Gendry scene, Maisie Williams was (according to her) given full control over what that scene showed.

[rogin]

Emilia Clarke doesn't have a nudity clause and never has. That's an internet rumor based on a misunderstanding of what a different actress said.

I didn't know that, thank you. Is there some other reason, why they undressed her all the time in the first season and then stopped?

[mefisto]

In the books, Dany was naked and having sex a LOT in book 1. The show actually understated that. In later seasons, they cut back on the nudity generally, not just for her, but Dany still had nude scenes: think her bath scene with Daario (S4) or her destruction of the Khals (S6E4).

As for the scene with Jon, one never knows exactly what considerations go into a scene like that, but in this case there may have been personal issues. Emilia is a very good friend of Rose Leslie, then Kit Harington's fiancé and now his wife. A full on sex scene probably would have been personally awkward.

Kristen Bell tells a great story along these lines. She had to get married in the morning because she was filming later in the day. At the end of the ceremony, she turned to her maid of honor, thanked her, and then said "now I'm going to go have fake sex with your husband".

[rogin]

Dany has sex in the later books too. There is her in between husband that they wrote out in the show. There is lots of Daario.

I think it was a decision of the show not to go that explicit with her again. The later scenes were done much more moderately. Maybe also because they needed the character command respect and that didn't work with the way they are doing sex scenes on this show.

[shadowkat]

The sex scenes tended to diminish in number in the latter seasons. The book did have a lot more nudity and sex for Dany, in part because of where she was located and that culture -- I found it annoying in the books and series. Cersei also has more sex and nudity in the books and series. BTW-- Lena Headly who portrays Cersei was the one with the nudity clause in her contract. They used body doubles for all of her nude scenes.

I'm wondering about Kit Harrington -- and how much of it is due to his contract? Although that explanation makes sense. The major characters they've not shown much of it on, interestingly enough.

The writers and network got a lot of push-back on both "torture" and "graphic sex" by the media -- which most likely prompted the decision.

[shadowkat]

It's actually gotten better over time. With Melissa McCarthy and Rebel Wilson. And in the series THIS IS US -- two of the main characters are over 400 pounds, in love, married, and having a kid. HBO also is doing better...I would not call Jon Snow pretty any longer (Harrington has not aged well). And Sam and Gilly certainly aren't. They've also within the last few years scaled back. And there's shows like The Kominsky Method that show people in their 70s having sex, the latest Diane Keaton film which also did, and Grace and Frankie. So, I wouldn't say it's like that any longer across the board.

What happened is that there are over 1000 distribution outlets now. So sure, you have the pretty twenty-somethings who all look alike on various CW and Freeform series...but the others are a bit more diversified. With more areas to choose from, people have been able to demonstrate to the network programmers and casting agents -- that viewers don't need the actors to be pretty, just good at what they do. And preferably relatable. Are we still shallow? Well, yes. But it's more diversified in some respects. Although thinking back -- it always was -- various shows like Roseanne, All in the Family, Hill Street Blues, had diverse casts and weren't "pretty and thin" people.

[anoyo]

I know Dany and company will win, because they lost the first battle. It's going to go down pretty much the same way the Night King battle did -- with the Starks taking out Cersei.

I had this thought while I was watching 804, which was basically that Dany has been prompted into rage, and she might attack before Jon and the rest of the army get there. In which case, she'll probably have an edge, but be nearly decimated, because that would be the wrong idea. Also, she seems to believe she can't be beaten. So then Jon &co will show up and save the day, and, honestly, the people in King's Landing will be like SHE BE CRAZY and everyone will be like LOOK WHO ACTUALLY SAVED THE DAY while Vanna White-ing at Jon. It would be INTERESTING. Especially if it resulted in a huge rift between Jon and Dany. Because Jon, no matter what, unfailingly, is incredibly moral. Dany, honestly, isn't. If the ends justify the means, that's good enough for her. For Jon, it isn't. If he shows up and she's killed a bunch of innocent citizens just to get at Cersei, he's going to take a long, hard look at her. Especially if people he trusts -- you know, pretty much everyone, he's kind of an idiot -- tell him to.

I don't know. It seems reasonable that Dany just gets pissed and that Jon comes in and sweeps up. I would be all for it.

[shadowkat]

That's probably what will happen -- which will only please the Jon Snow fans, but piss off well, everyone else. ;-)

[anoyo]

I'm sorry, are some people not Jon Snow fans?

/shot

[shadowkat]

Everyone else on this thread and on my flist. ;-) We're Dany, Brienne, Tyrion, The Hound, Sam, and Ayra fans. Jon is too stupid to live to be King -- "You know nothing Jon Snow!"

[anoyo]

Man, everyone on my end is a Jon Snow fan. WEIRD. I mean, generally more of an Arya or Sansa fan, but also: Jon.

[shadowkat]

Even at work -- all my co-workers are Ayra and Dany. No one wants Jon to win.

[anoyo]

LOL. That's so weird! It can't be an age gap thing, since the folks I know run the gamut from teen to seventy, and definitely folks in each sect want Jon to win. I am 100% positive Arya won't sit on the Iron Throne. Like, if she wins, she'll either knock everything down or give it to Jon or Sansa. And I just feel like, at this point, Dany winning wouldn't be ~wild~ enough for the writers. (I personally have always wanted Bran to win. I mean, I realize he's not even really in the game, but it's true. I love Bran.)

[shadowkat]

No, it's not an age gap thing -- the co-workers I spoke to are between the ages of 25-40. And on my flist - they are between the ages of 40-70.

I think it's just personal preference.

My prediction is it's going to be Sansa. Everyone in King's Landing will most likely die. Sophie Turner already stated that fans would not like the ending or be satisfied by it -- which leads me to believe it's not a happy ending.

Jon winning is expected and predictable. Dany winning -- doesn't track --- she will go insane. It was clear from Episode 4 that Dany was going to go insane like her father before her. She's pretty much lost everything -- if you think about it. Both her dragons were killed, she has one left. Her most trusted advisors and aids have been killed in front of her eyes -- and she couldn't save them. The man she loves -- she can't have. And the army she cared for -- has been decimated. Dany and Cersei are two sides of the same coin.

Jon and Urine Greyjoy are equally paralleled here. And I think they are both dead - most likely casualities of the battle.

Leaving Sansa in Winterfell to sit the Iron Throne, with Tyrion and Varys as her advisors. I despise Sansa, but she is by far the cleverest and smartest of the bunch. She knew how to play Tyrion, and she's been very good at playing Jon.

Bran doesn't want the throne...he lives in the past. He just wants to sit and float around. So, yeah, he'll survive and be another advisor.

[anoyo]

Maybe no one sits on the iron throne, and it just sort of gets destroyed. That would be sort of charming.

[shadowkat]

I'd actually prefer that. Nice.

At this point -- I'm not expecting much. As long as Cersei, the Mountain, Qyburn, Urine Greyjoy - all die, and the dragon and Ghost live, I'll be happy. ;-)

[promethia_tenk]

*raises hand* I don't like either of them, so this is about the best outcome I can think of.

[promethia_tenk]

I think I'm exactly the right amount of invested in this show right now, because the internet appears to be in flames about this episode and I thought it was a great time. I mean, the seams in the writing are still painfully visible due to the need to rush to the ending, but at least they've gone back to giving us the kinds of atmospheric and character scenes they've always been best at. I will overlook a lot of plot stupidity for that whole banquet sequence.

Also beginning to think Jamie may kill Cersei after all -- although I think it's a better twist if Ayra kills Jamie and does it, or Ayra kills Garren and does it.
I've decided I don't want him to, just because it would be backsliding for his character. That wouldn't be closure, it would just be more damage? That said, I'm looking forward to the show flirting with it.

Also is it just me or are all the sex scenes somewhat awkward this season...and subdued?
You're not wrong, but I've been rewatching the show here since I'm paying for HBO and might as well make the most of it and I will 100% take it over the stupidly gratuitous sexposition of the early seasons.

I adored Tyrion and Varys' discussion. They aren't wrong.
I WAS SO HAPPY ABOUT THIS SCENE. It was like Classic Thrones was back on the menu and I am here for it. Give me all the political machinations please and thank you.

I do however agree with Varys -- give the power to the person who does not want it.
Never give it to one who does.
I'm at such a loss about who I want on the Iron Throne. The people who want it shouldn't have it and the people who might do a decent job I would never wish it on them. There's no way this all ends well.

[shadowkat]

Nods...I pretty much agree. I've reached the point in which I'm not really all that invested in the show. I'd like the remaining dragon to survive though, but not counting on it.

I mean, the seams in the writing are still painfully visible due to the need to rush to the ending, but at least they've gone back to giving us the kinds of atmospheric and character scenes they've always been best at. I will overlook a lot of plot stupidity for that whole banquet sequence.

For me it was the Tyrion/Varys scenes, Tyrion/Sansa, Tyrion/Jamie, Tyrion/Jamie/Brienne... I like the character centric bits. Martin is good at characterization, plot not so much. Which is fine for me -- I care more about character than plot anyhow.

I've decided I don't want him to, just because it would be backsliding for his character. That wouldn't be closure, it would just be more damage? That said, I'm looking forward to the show flirting with it.

Agreed. It doesn't work characterwise. Seems out of character somehow. No, I think Ayra will most likely be the one who kills her posing as someone else...or Cersei will kill herself. One or the other. I don't see either of her brothers doing it. (Even though the books made a big deal out of Tyrion or Jamie killing her -- with all this prophecy stuff --- but none of that has made it into the television series, at least not that I remember...The series also left out the whole subplot about Lady Stoneheart and Brienne taking Jamie to her -- to get revenge.)

I'm at such a loss about who I want on the Iron Throne. The people who want it shouldn't have it and the people who might do a decent job I would never wish it on them. There's no way this all ends well.

I think no one getting it works best or the remaining dragon. Good luck pushing that dragon off the throne. ;-)

[dlgood]

I do however agree with Varys -- give the power to the person who does not want it.
Never give it to one who does.

That's a common trope in stories, and a common thing we want to believe... but it's also a non-sequitur. It lead to the first generation of American leaders steadfastly pretending they had no interest in governance and only had the positions thrust upon them... while their friends secretly flooded the town square with leaflets that make modern tabloids look polite.

Whether someone wants to lead, is less relevant than what that person would do with power. Jon Snow, whom Varys currently favors - is someone Varys admittedly thinks is weak. Which may be the point - that Varys cannot imagine there not being a king, and so prefers a king that will listen to him.

Jon does mean well. He's not hungry for power, for power's sake. But then what? He wanted to unite people, but he wasn't good at managing competing interests among those factions - even during an existential crisis, when it's usually easier.

Oddly, Daenerys became popular in Essos by telling the dispossed "Throw down your masters, follow me if you wish" promoting people and giving them a lot of autonomy. Had she, instead of going into the field against Cersei - flown across the continent visiting cities and towns and asking them to turn against Cersei (who is cruel, tyrannical, turned religious fanatics on the population, and bad with money) this would have made her very popular. As much as the Dragons, this is how her Ancestors conquered the continent.

But also, absent a montage, the show doesn't really have time to play that out in such a short episode order. She completely abandoned that approach once she left Essos. The show never explained why?

[dlgood]

As an aside, as someone who has worked in the National Security field for over 20 years, the show handled Diplomacy/Military issues very well in the first few seasons, and has handled them non-sensically in the last 2.

And the NatSec industry, which loves this show, has really taken issue with it. (A.k.a. there are a lot of problems with the Targaryen air force)

Some of these elements, like the power of Euron's ballistae, are unrealistic but dramatically expedient. so you handwave it. Whereas, military leaders who are supposed to be smart, using their forces stupidly... is a problem.

[shadowkat]

Thanks for chiming in. I was wondering about that. It's interesting to note that GRR Martin wrote the battle episodes in the first two seasons. And Martin is big on how battles are depicted, the logistics, etc. That's one of his obsessions -- recreating battles from by gone eras with various figures. (I can't remember the word for this hobby...which explains it better.)

However...after about Season 2 or possibly 3, GRR Martin ceased being involved in the series and had no input. And... the military logistics and battle strategy went down-hill from there. I found the strategy behind the battle against the White Walkers, and then later the sea fight, and Kings Landing meeting -- to be completely off.

Why'd Dany employ her dragons in the manner she did -- when she already knew what Euron's ballistae could do...? I mean, this is a woman who took on far brighter strategists than Euron.

[dlgood]

We excuse some of this. Dragons have been absent from the world for 150 years, so you wouldn't expect someone to have Air Force Academy training in doctrine for their usage. We also don't know precisely how capable and vulnerable they are... and I don't know that the characters in the world do either. Lets grant that Euron's ballistae are equivalent to the Exocet Missile in capability. And that Dany doesn't know that Euron has that degree of capability. Because, I guess, Varys is now a useless spymaster.

OTOH, she has traveled with a Dothraki horde for years - and the Dothraki understand what cavalry does (and does not do). So the S7 battle was an example of combined arms. A massed infantry can withstand a direct cavalry charge. Cavalry need to attack from the rear or flank, or attack a disorganized infantry. The dragonfire opens the line in places, the Lannister infantry panicks and breaks, and then the Dothraki cavalry mop them up.

These tactics don't work against an undead army, because the zombies don't have a morale to break. They stay in formation. So charging them directly with cavalry is senseless. They should have anticipated that. Instead, you should wait for the undead infantry to reach the castle, and then flank with cavalry - who have been acting as archers up to that point.

The dragons, in that battle, were largely hampered by the storm, which reduced their invisibility - and the presence of an enemy dragon - which meant they could not operate uncontested.

As to the sea battle... on a clear day, from a height of 100 feet... a human can see 20 miles. While she may not know the rate of fire of a ballista - she ought to have seen the enemy fleet. Dragons are, as shown, fairly maneuverable. She should have been able to circle Dragonstone out of range of enemy fire and have spotted the enemy fleet long before they were in combat range. The show should have pitched that battle in fog, to explain how her fleet was so surprised.

Again - she has spent years with a Cavalry army, and Cavalry are great for scouting. It's an easy principle to have adopted with your dragon - even if Dany had never gone to the AFA...